Should Dylan Farrow/Woody Allen posts continue in LBN and General Discussion?

[OmahaBlueDog]

...or are they more appropriately posted elsewhere?

14 votes, 2 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes. They are newsworthy stories and have a place in LBN & GD
	2 (14%)
	No. This is essentially a showbiz topic, and belongs in the Lounge, the Movies group, or Good Reads
	8 (57%)
	Yes, the stories should be allowed in GD, but not in LBN (edited to add due to requests)
	4 (29%)
	2 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[Systematic Chaos]

1. I choose GD only and not really LBN.

But GD only if flamefests can be avoided...and we all know how successful our community here is with that.

[Scootaloo]

3. GD but not LBN seems to make sense

Barring, y'know, breaking news.

[OmahaBlueDog]

4. I've added that option.

[edbermac]

2. Yes, some valid issues raised, BUT...

I have no use for the abuse-victims-always-lie or the Woody lynch-mob posts.

[BainsBane]

5. All people need do is read the court finding

http://www.scribd.com/doc/205403621/Allen-v-Farrow-Custody-Ruling-June-7-1993

and understand what the legal record really says. The story is completely different from what has been reported in the press.
Read for yourself and see. It was Roguevalley who posted the definitive thread that links to as much evidence as can be known about this case without having been in that attic with Dylan and Woody.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024461709

[OmahaBlueDog]

8. I think the real question I'm asking is whether this is a news story about an entertainer or...

...an entertainment news story.

In another sense, I'm asking about whether DUers are seeing the posts pop up in GD and LBN, or whether they are still interested. There are a lot of threads on a lot of aspects of the topic.

[BainsBane]

11. This is about rape culture

It is not about entertainment. The entertainment factor comes in because Allen is rich and famous, and for some reason that makes people believe him over his daughter. I could give a damn about movie stars. Rape of children and adults, that I care about a great deal. I care that people learn not to so easily dismiss the word of rape victims. If they do not, we will never dismantle rape culture, and assaults of children, women and men will continue in huge numbers with consequences for only a tiny percentage of assailants.

[OmahaBlueDog]

13. I think there is a counter argument that this is just another story of a movie star gone bad

Put another way.. a TMZ story.

If this were about a 78 year-old plumber from Dubuque, would we be discussing it to this extent? No, we would not.

[BainsBane]

16. I disagree strongly

Just because the media doesn't focus on those ordinary cases doesn't make them unimportant. This is a case we know about. The fact is rape and child abuse are exceedingly common. 25% of the population are victims and only 3% of rapes result in conviction and jail time, according to RAINN. High profile cases provide an opportunity to explore rape culture. Every two minutes a woman is raped. Child abuse is every bit as frequent. But most of those assaults are never reported and few prosecuted. This is an opportunity for people to learn that victims should not be so easily dismissed. We now have a court record that shows that virtually all of Woody Allen's story was invented without evidence. He is legally innocent, yes. Most of the rest is false. Yet so many were certain he was innocent and his daughter wasn't fit to know what had happened to her. This is an opportunity for people to rethink those assumptions, to rethink how they respond to victims of sexual assault in an effort to combat the epidemics of rape and child abuse in America. People only need to decide to care, to care about experiences that mar the lives of 25% of Americans, most but not all of them female.

[sabrina 1]

36. If it were a plumber from Dubuque after he took two lie detector tests & passed

which his girl friend refused to do, it would have been over.

Using celebrities for people's personal obsessions is an old story.

This is a tabloid gossip story at this point and if we had a tabloid section, that is where it should be.

GD has become almost unreadable at this point, unless tabloidism is your thing.

[OmahaBlueDog]

37. Pretty Much

I'm hoping posting peaked today with the two self-deleted "Do you think (fill in the blank) is guilty polls"

[pacalo]

17. Rape culture, as in raping an ex's reputation out of revenge (for others who believe differently

from you). If he were a pedophile, there should have been other reports of child abuse -- but there haven't been. The timing is noteworthy, too; a month before the Academy Awards, during which Woody Allen's movie "Jasmine" will be up for three Oscars. Cate Blanchett, one of today's greatest & most watchable actresses, has won one award after another for her lead role in "Jasmine" & could win the best actress Oscar. How do we know it's not flaming, raging jealousy that could possibly have driven Mia Farrow off the edge?

Here's a valentine Mia Farrow handed to Woody Allen in 1992. He didn't open it until he had gotten into his car.



From an interview on a 1992 "60 Minutes" segment:

Woody Allen: She's threatened my life many times. I mean, she called me and threatened my--she's threatened to have me killed and to kill me. And to--and to stick my eyes out, to stick my eyes out, to blind me because she became obsessed with Greek tragedy and--and felt that this--that that would be a fitting, you know, vengeance.

Steve Kroft: Did you take it seriously?

Woody Allen: I took it seriously in the middle of the night. When you get a phone call at 4 in the morning saying that you're going to be killed and that your eyes are going to be put out, you get scared because it's the middle of the night and your heart's beating, that's what--you know, when it got to be daytime, you know, I felt better, and I--moving around in New York City I always feel--you know, I always feel scared anyhow, so this was no worse.

Steve Kroft: Was there ever a time when you started to think, maybe she means some of this?

Woody Allen: Yeah. The--the--she--she sent me a Valentine card. She didn't send it to me; she gave it to me. And I said, "Oh, thanks," you know. And I went downstairs, I got into my car and I opened it up, and there...was a very, very, very chilling Valentine, meticulously worked on. I mean, I--one hesitates to say psychotically worked on--you know, a Victorian Valentine and photo of the family, and through all the kids was thrust needles and a steak knife stuck through the heart of the thing.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/woody-allen-defends-himself-on-60-minutes-in-92/

[CTyankee]

21. I'm not sure Woody' story isn't "embroidered."

I can see how in a fit of rage over what he did, she would depict needles and a knife through the pictures of her family, who he had betrayed by sleeping with her teenaged daughter while he was in loco parentis as a step dad. It was graphic but it didn't depict her stabbing HIM. Woody is the one doing the stabbing. Why are you believing/caring about HIM?

Woody has a lot of power in Hollywood and a lot of people want to curry favor with him. That ain't always very pretty, or maybe you haven't noticed. It is a brutal town.

Woody Allen is dead to me now. I will never see another movie of his.

Judi Dench deserves the Oscar this year anyway...but the panderers will vote for Blanchett to suck up to Woody...

[Tx4obama]

6. Depends if the article conforms to the SOP of the forum. n/t

[OmahaBlueDog]

10. SOP of GD says no showbiz topics

What business is Woody Allen in if not show business?

[Tx4obama]

12. The GD SOP says '... unless there is really big news ... "

General Discussion Statement of Purpose

Discuss politics, issues, and current events. No posts about Israel/Palestine, religion, guns, showbiz, or sports unless there is really big news. No conspiracy theories. No whining about DU.

So, it a call by the forum Hosts when/if there is a SOP alert sent.

[OmahaBlueDog]

14. Is this really big news?

Sad? Yes. Horrific? If true, yes. Would we be discussing this is Allen were a 78 year old barber from Cleveland? I doubt it.

Are sexual allegations against celebrities really big news?

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. Yes, sexual allegations against celebrities are really big news

It's one of the top stories on the BBC now; 4th on the UK Google News list, including commentary from the Times of India. He's one of the best-known filmmakers in the world. Mia Farrow is a well known actress.

[OmahaBlueDog]

23. If the case were being considered by a State's Attorney or a Grand Jury. sure

Recent case in point: allegations of rape against Florida State QB Jamis Winston were widely reported because the State's Attorney was considering filing charges.

Another recent case in point: Jerry Sandusky, former Penn State assistant coach. His case was noteworthy a) because he was well known in the sports world b) he was a serial offender and c) there was a massive institutional cover up. Again, charges were leveled in court.

Steubenville and Marysville. Again, both have risen to the level of prosecution.

It is true the story is getting wide reporting. He's a celebrity and most of the public disapproves of the relationship he has with Soon-Yi Previn. Nevertheless, I've seen nothing to indicate that we're going to see charges here. Perhaps I'm wrong. Absent charges, or the prospect of charges, one can argue this is little more than very ugly celebrity gossip.

[muriel_volestrangler]

24. There are a lot of people who believe Dylan Farrow is telling the truth

which would mean Allen got away with it. That in itself would be noteworthy; some think it is a cover-up. Accusations of child abuse are more than 'ugly gossip'. Allen may be the most famous person to be accused of child abuse ever - much better known than Sandusky, and more famous than Polanksi, or the individual Catholic priests, and better known worldwide than any of the celebrities in the UK, such as Jimmy Saville.

There has been 1 LBN thread on this topic - the one started overnight. It's not as if this is clogging up LBN.

[OmahaBlueDog]

26. As I said previously, the real question is whether this is news about an entertainer

..or entertainment news.

If true, the story is horrific. We agree on that.

You may believe the story; I may believe the story; a lot of people may believe the story. However, does a State's attorney believe the story? Will a Grand Jury believe the story? The difference between Allen and Sandusky, Polanski, and many priests is that Allen has not been charged and not been convicted Even in the case of Michael Jackson (who I would respectfully submit is the most famous person to be accused of child sexual abuse) a pattern of behavior was established -- and Jackson was charged, tried, and acquitted (1133603: The People of the State of California v. Michael Joseph Jackson).

There may be only one thread in LBN, but I believe there have been over a dozen threads in GD on the topic -- most in the past two weeks.

[muriel_volestrangler]

28. True, Jackson was more famous - I thought of that later

It is news about an entertainer, not entertainment news. There's no doubt about that, and I can't see why you keep asking it. There is no 'entertainment' involved; it's about an extremely serious accusation, and a woman who is deeply affected by whatever happened. News is not just decided by legal charges being brought.

The question of how people should view Allen and his work because of his family life is one that receives serious discussion, as, for instance, the question of Wagner and his apparent anti-semitism does. There are important questions for society about how you investigate such situations.

Yes, there have been many GD threads about this; but child abuse, and accusations of it, and how to assess them, are a topic that many people have strong views on. There were many threads about Justin Bieber, and while drunk driving is serious, no-one says he hurt anyone. Google News now lists 409 articles on this, and not just from media that cover entertainment heavily; both what Dylan Farrow said and Allen's response are in the NYT, it's covered by The Guardian, BBC, Jewish Daily Forward and pretty much any media outlet you can name. it is big news.

[OmahaBlueDog]

29. I don't "keep asking"; I point out that this is the topic of the survey

You have no doubt that this is big news. That's your opinion. I have doubt. That's my opinion. You say it's an extremely serious accusation. I say it's an allegation, but it's not serious until a legal authority chooses to pursue charges. Until then, it's just a very ugly story about a movie star that may or may not be true.

I'd also point out that the majority of those who've chosen to respond to the poll would like to see these posts somewhere other than GD.

I'd also assert that Bieber and his antics are also entertainment news, but would point out that the White House did receive 100K signatures on a petition to revoke his green card and deport him. If the Bieber stories are covered by the NYT, The Guardian, BBC, Jewish Daily Forward and pretty much any media outlet one can name, are they big news? Or are they simply popular news?

[Shrike47]

7. I would have voted for 'enough already' had it been offered.

I am all too aware of child sexual abuse. I think at this point the Woody Allen story is exhausted. Like Michael Jackson, these men apparently have very strange (to me) sexual foci.

[OmahaBlueDog]

9. Guns belonged in the Gungeon, and then became news after Newtown

If this is a showbiz topic (which is in a sense what I'm asking), then is it time for these threads to go where showbiz threads are posted?

[JI7]

15. even if you dont think it belongs here i would not consider it "showbiz"

we aren't talking about actors fighting over parts or about who deserved the best film award .

also isn't the reason this has come up now because of some recent articles that have come out ?

[Warren DeMontague]

18. Not LBN without additional developments.

GD, yes.

[CTyankee]

22. I voted GD, but when I thought about the whole story it began to bother me that

I was even caring where it was here on this board. When you look at the heart of this story, it is a horrific child molestation and all else seems trivial...

[Warren DeMontague]

30. I'm just answering the specific question in the OP.

A political message board is bound to cover some horrific topics, be they historical things like the Holocaust, human rights abuses in N Korea, or terrible crime stories.

[CTyankee]

31. Oh, I know that...it just seemed so trivial. If I posted in the wrong forum and was

called on it I would be mortified momentarily and then laugh it off, asking myself "Is this even CLOSE to something you have to worry about?"

It just made me realize how we seek a sense of order in ordinary stuff...not saying it's bad, just looking at context.

[Warren DeMontague]

33. I've noticed that discussions about external topics rapidly become all about DU & other DU members

for some folks.

It's an odd obsession. Makes me think those people really ought to get out more.

[CTyankee]

34. Yes, I've noticed that, too. One particular group has a set of whiners and rather vicious

attackers. I rarely go there. It is poison and downright frightening...

[Warren DeMontague]

35. Yep, me too.

Aint nobody got time for that bullshit.

[baldguy]

20. The allegations are 20 yrs old. Hardly LBN.

And anything else is just voyeuristic rubbernecking into the sad private lives of a dysfunctional family.

[CTyankee]

32. hardly just a "dysfunctional family" and you are misplacing blame here...

It wasn't the "family" that was screwed up, it was Woody Allen. Of course, he is responsible for some major screwing up of their lives. Woody Allen is a predator and a liar.

[baldguy]

40. The problem is, of course, that there is no physical evidence to support Mia Farrows allegations.

Dylan has been indoctrinated for 20 yrs to believe that Woody Allen molested her. These allegations originated from Mia Farrow in the midst of an acrimonious breakup, where Dylan at the very least was coached by Mia to say the "right" things to make the charges stick. In her own brother's words Dylan has been "brainwashed" by Mia.

So, unless you have a confession signed by Woody Allen, and authenticated by an independent 3rd party, there's no way you could possibly prove he's lying.

[CTyankee]

42. And you have proof of your allegations?

the man started an affair with the teenaged daughter of his partner. How old was he and how old was she?

where is your proof of what Mia allegedly did?

[baldguy]

43. From Woody Allen's statement:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024464794

"Mia insisted that I had abused Dylan and took her immediately to a doctor to be examined. Dylan told the doctor she had not been molested. Mia then took Dylan out for ice cream, and when she came back with her the child had changed her story."

and from the Child Sexual Abuse Clinic of the Yale-New Haven Hospital, working independantly for the CT Prosecutors Office at the time & quoted in Allen's statement:

"It is our expert opinion that Dylan was not sexually abused by Mr. Allen. Further, we believe that Dylan’s statements on videotape and her statements to us during our evaluation do not refer to actual events that occurred to her on August 4th, 1992... In developing our opinion we considered three hypotheses to explain Dylan’s statements. First, that Dylan’s statements were true and that Mr. Allen had sexually abused her; second, that Dylan’s statements were not true but were made up by an emotionally vulnerable child who was caught up in a disturbed family and who was responding to the stresses in the family; and third, that Dylan was coached or influenced by her mother, Ms. Farrow. While we can conclude that Dylan was not sexually abused, we can not be definite about whether the second formulation by itself or the third formulation by itself is true. We believe that it is more likely that a combination of these two formulations best explains Dylan’s allegations of sexual abuse."

Those are the known facts of the case in the public record. They are not in dispute.

Again there's no question that Dylan Farrow has been traumatized. The perpetrator is most likely her mother.

[cinnabonbon]

25. Don't think this is LBN material

but it does fit GD, since there is an interesting feminist angle to discuss.

[treestar]

27. Why not?

It's a current events topic like any other.

[hrmjustin]

38. As a GD and LBN host I say that thry belong in GD but not in LBN.

[OmahaBlueDog]

39. First, thank you for hosting

I appreciate what hosts do, even if they maye me want to cuss at times.

Second, I'm part of the 66-67% of responders to the poll that would like to see this topic go to a more entertainment/infotainment area of the site.

If true, it's a terrible story of abuse. If false, it's a terrible slander. However, if it wasn't Woody Allen, few (if any) would care. Since no charges have been filed, and none of the comments of any of the concerned parties about the abuse are actually verifiable, to me, this is celebrity gossip.

[hrmjustin]

41. Skinners reaction will be people want to talk about it so leave it in GD.

LBN is a much stricter forum and unless there are legal issues I don't think it belongs there.

BTW I love your posts and thank you.