Do you think more Syrians have been killed by Assad than Iraqis killed by Bush?

[yurbud]

It's funny but Kerry seems more animated to oust Assad than he did to oust Bush when Kerry was a candidate himself.

Have people in Washington never heard that saying about "Take the plank out of your own eye before you take the speck out of someone else's?"

[BeyondGeography]

1. Kerry kicked off his quest to defeat Bush with prostate cancer surgery

Not good enough for yurbud sittin' on his ass somewhere?

[el_bryanto]

6. So you are down on people sitting on their asses?

What do you sit on?

Also did he time his prostate cancer surgery specifically so he could start his campaign with it?

Bryant

[pampango]

2. And neither has killed as many as Hitler, Stalin or Mao. What's the point of the comparison?

Can't we be against mass killing even if it is not setting a new record in terms of total deaths?

[yurbud]

7. people who were in a position to stop or at least more vociferously protest the larger...

are now wringing their hands over the smaller.

There should be ONE standard, and if we are going to fund rebels and threaten bomb countries that don't follow that standard, we can't expect other countries to believe that's really the reason we're doing something if we don't enforce it on our own leaders.

[JI7]

14. if you go by that then nothing would get done, there are kids starving in poor nations so cutting

food stamps at home should be ok.

[sabrina 1]

3. Shhhhhh, we have to 'move forward' from all those war crimes, HERE.

Over a million dead Iraqi men, women and children, untold numbers maimed for life, torture, pillage, rape. Millions of Iraqis now refugees from the 'democracy' we created in their country, living in Syrian and Jordanian refugee camps.

Liars and torturers revered and not a single war criminal held accountable.

Why are you complaining?

[yurbud]

8. I wonder what happened to all the Iraqi refugees in Syria once this started

they must have felt like they jumped out of the frying pan and into the microwave.

[sabrina 1]

16. They were doing okay, considering their situation, in Syria. Remember Riverbend? She and her family

ended up in Syria which they chose over Jordan according to her last diary entry before they left. She explained that the Syrians were more welcoming than than Jordan and it was a tough decision for them.

I was thinking of her when all this began. The Iraqi refugees came under attack and the last I read about them was that if they could leave, they were leaving. Aid Organizations were trying to keep track of them. Syria took in at least one million Iraqi refugees and so far as I know the US and its Wealthy Western allies, did not give them much aid in assisting these victims of their illegal wars. The thanks to Syria, well we've seen it.

If there is a hell, and sometimes I wish there was, not the fire kind, but the karma kind, where you get to be the victim of those you victimized in your life here. Iow, Cheney et al would be run out of their country with nothing but whatever they were wearing and condemned to the years of fear, loss and suffering they have inflicted on so many millions of people. I suppose I should be better than that, but right now seeing the slaughter, the torture, the displacement of millions of people, and then the massive amounts of money these monsters have been making, it IS what I would wish on them at this point.

[wildbilln864]

28. thank you! n/t

[bemildred]

4. Bush is still way ahead, if you go by body counts.

People in Washington, near as I can tell, most of them, don't think at all, they just sort of react instinctively and cling to their entrenched positions as long as possible.

[yurbud]

9. they look at who writes them checks, and the list of instructions they put on back

and think about how to follow the orders of those who bought their services.

[bemildred]

10. Well it sure as hell is not what I call thinking.

Although the scenario you describe is likely accurate enough for most purposes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. So are war crimes excusable since

It is ordered by the head of state? I must say, I do love this new (actually ancient) standard.

[yurbud]

19. only our head of state

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. How about neither

war crime is warcrime is warcrime.

That should be the standard.

Meaning BOTH Assad and Bush belong at the IC at the docket.

[pampango]

31. I'll vote for that idea. "A war crime is a war crime is a war crime."

What will become of the world if we treat all war crimes as war crimes? Something good, I imagine.

[yurbud]

37. Ultimately, I agree, but since our government doesn't even acknowledge Bush's crimes...

that makes our politicians look hypocritical at least when they get their knickers in a knot about some other country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Empires do what empires do

but that does not mean I have to accept that standard, now does it?

[yurbud]

40. should the empire then go about pretending to punish others for sins it's committed itself?

Or is it more likely that the sins are the excuse and the (business) empire is the real reason?

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. I will leave that for historians

Since this looks like one in decline

[quinnox]

11. But… USA! USA! USA!

We don't want to think or talk about that… we are the good guys…damnit

[JI7]

12. and republicans say communism killed the most that's why Castro is worse than Hitler

[JI7]

13. this is why milosevic should never have been brought to trial

and the poor guy ended up committing suicide .

the guy from the congo on trial for war crimes should also be let go.

[JI7]

15. i guess we were right not to do anything with rwanda because more people were killed during wwII

[pampango]

17. You had me going with your first two posts. Thanks for clearing that up.

[yurbud]

21. you've got it backwards. Do you think our government is getting involved out of altruism?

based on the results in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya, our support of the rebels in Syria and pushing for the overthrow of Assad will likely result in chaos, poverty, violence, and ignorance--but some happy bankers and CEOs somewhere.

[JI7]

22. you have a very US centered view of the world

[yurbud]

23. have you been asleep for the last decade and a half? Do you think we had nothing to do with the mess

in two out of three of those countries?

[JI7]

24. just as i said

[yurbud]

26. We occupied two out of three of those countries and back rebels and bombed in the third

People who live there might reasonably assume we have something to do with the chaos and death there.

[JI7]

27. and there are people in Syria who are begging us to get involved

it's usually not good to view foreign policy in a one size fits all way.

people from there do not all think the same and when they are suffering they sure aren't thinking about all the evils that the US has done .

you can oppose getting involved but lets not pretend everything is just fine and great there.

[sabrina 1]

29. Who in Syria is asking us to get involved? We ARE involved, by proxy, our friends the Saudis and

some of our other 'allied dictators' help us not to 'put boots on the ground' because NO ONE wants us in their countries after what we did to Iraq and Afghanistan and what we are doing in Yemen and Pakistan, and Libya where we also had 'proxies' from Qatar and Bahrain.

Didn't you hear Hillary boast about the 'new way to fight for regime change in this big chess game we are playing all over the world? She was proud of our 'proxy armies' confirming what many suspected in Libya eg.

And the suspicions of our role in the Ukraine have been confirmed. And don't forget our role in the coup in Honduras and our attempted coup in Venezuela. Did you say 'US centered'?? Well, if the shoe fits etc.

[JI7]

32. i know people from syria who want something done , not everyone is limited in their views and

thinking .

[sabrina 1]

33. I know people in various countries. But I would never assume that a couple of people someone knows

here in the US should be the standard for what the people of those countries want.

We know from polls now that even Syrians who initially opposed Assad, much like what happened in Iraq after they saw the devastation the Western Imperialists created in their country, have decided that the extremists factions operating in their country, the brutality they have brought when initially the protests were peaceful, are now supporting their own government. Understandable that any sovereign nation would want to solve their own problems, and after learning their country has been invaded by outsiders, prefer the 'devil they know'.

[JI7]

34. i never said that should be the standard. i'm saying people have lives and views that have nothing

do with the US. they have problems they deal with everyday .

[yurbud]

35. most of them are probably paid to beg us or have personal agendas like Chalabi in Iraq

things were not necessarily great under Assad, but they were better enough that Iraqis fled TO Assad's Syria and AWAY FROM our war in Iraq.

[JI7]

38. that's what i mean about having a US centered view of the world

[WatermelonRat]

18. It depends on how you define it.

If you count all deaths in the entire war as being killed by Bush (a valid position since he set the whole fiasco off), then no, but if you limit the count to those actually killed by American forces, Assad has probably killed more at this point.

[yurbud]

36. we probably killed quite a few directly between shock and awe, house raids, and "collateral murder"

sorties.

[NYC_SKP]

25. OT: Reagan killed more than any president since then, indirectly. nt

[Xithras]

30. According to the math, Bush killed far more civilians than Assad.

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights puts the current death toll at 136,277 as of a couple weeks ago.

Of those, an estimated 53,000 are Syrian military, police, and National Defense Force combatants loyal to Assad.

Somewhere around 40,000 are rebel fighters, jihadists, and military defectors (estimates range from 31,000 to 55,000, so I'm splitting the difference).

That puts the casualty count in the Syrian war at just over 43,000 civilian noncombatants.The IBC project put the civilian death toll during the Iraq war and occupation at 121,000.

So no, Bush has killed FAR more people than Assad.

Of course, if you really want to rate "guilt", the Clinton-era sanctions and military strikes killed between 350,000 (Columbia University) and 500,000 (UNICEF) Iraqi children under the age of 5 long before Shrub ever took office. America has never shied away from mass murder when it suits our political goals. Just ask the Native Americans.