Pissed and disappointed at union vote. But I want to see info about why

[Armstead]

I was really thinking and hoping the union would pull this election off. Especially since VW didn't appear to be union busting.

And the symbolism of it is discouraging, in terms of the prospects of American workers ever havibg a backbone again.


So, my initial reaction was: Why did those dumbshits fall into the sheeple line and vote against their own interests? Are they morons? Are they masochists?

And frankly it triggered that generalization mechanism in my head about what a screwed up idiotic nation of willing victims we have become. Duck Dynasty lovin' meatheads.

And there's the anger that the GOP Gestapo nay have succeeded in intimidating them.

But the rational side of my head tells me that I shouldn't jump to conclusions.

Maybe they had legitimate reasons. Perhaps VW treats them well, and they don't believe they need a union. Perhaps many of them gave an honest appraisal and decided on balance they were better off without a union.

Dunno. But I really hope there is enough information inthe aftermath that tells the real story, and gives an accurate picture if why this happened.

[okaawhatever]

1. I have a couple of theories. One is that the workers are treated and paid well. This is because all

the other VW plants are union and VW keeps the pay in line with those shops. Additionally, I suspect the other union shops want to keep the Chattanooga wages and benefits high because they don't want a bunch of work being moved there. Remember, VW's board of director's model has ten employees representatives and ten management types.
My other theory is that there was a whisper campaign that Corker and the Repubs would get the labor laws changed to get the works council that VW wants without UAW representation. The issue with VW is that their works councils in Germany and other countries don't necessarily have third party representation. Our labor laws don't allow for that because when the laws were written the fear was that the companies would set up works councils that were more or less just an extension of management. The UAW had talked with VW and agreed to cooperate with a new model similar to their German works councils. It probably would have been an exciting change. It would have given workers a voice in things other than pay and benefits.
Based on the statements from the reps of VW it sounds like they're going to continue pursuing some type of works council agreement.

From www.nooga.com

"... Throughout this process, we found great enthusiasm for the idea of an American-style works council both inside and outside our plant," Fischer noted. "Our goal continues to be to determine the best method for establishing a works council in accordance with the requirements of U.S. labor law to meet VW America's production needs and serve our employees’ interests."
Sebastian Patta, vice president for human resources, said: "While there was intense outside interest in this election, our managers and employees inside the plant maintained high-quality production and continued to work together in a calm and respectful manner."

http://www.nooga.com/165461/updated-uaw-loses-representation-vote-at-volkswagen-chattanooga/

[Armstead]

2. Sounds plausible, though I have a hard time envisioning those GOP shitheads...

Doing anything remotely in the interests of workers.

But I guess their strategy is anything is better than a union.

[okaawhatever]

3. I just started thinking that way after I read an interview with Bob Corker where he

said he thought legally the works councils can be formed without union representation. The author of the article countered that with opinions of respected labor attorneys. Corker said he had sought legal opinions on the issue. If he had gone to that kind of trouble to contact attorneys and find a legal way around the UAW while still providing works councils, it was for a reason. I think he has a plan that was crafted by the GOP and top GOP donors and tea party folks. The huge presence of the outside third parties, namely the Right to Work Foundation, made me think there may be a concerted effort by the Republicans to test the law in the courts (especially with the current scotus) and see if they can do away with the unions through a combination works councils and favorable court rulings.
When the VW executives made their statement right after the election the said they would still try to form the works councils, it really made e think that there may be something to the idea that Corker was trying to get the works council without the UAW. What's bad is that I'm sure it will work great for a while, but without the union when the economy goes south in the future the employees will be screwed.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/02/12/sen-bob-corker-cant-stand-the-united-auto-workers-an-annotated-interview/

Another thing that most people from union areas don't understand is the notion that the reason these jobs are in places like Chattanooga is because they're non-union. There is a lot of publicity when these plants move down south. the politicians make sure everyone hears that the reason they came there is because it's a right to work state. Workers fear that if they go union, there's no reason for the plants to continue to operate in their area. It's all fear. i doubt this would have worked had the economy been better. There were billboards and radio/tv ads that showed Detroit in shambles basically saying it was the UAW's fault this happened, but the underlying message was...this could be you. These people don't have jobs and you won't either if you go union. Corker and other state officials using the bullshit that they might not approve the tax breaks if they went union only made it worse. The workers were probably thinking, okay we know VW is okay with unions, but what if they don't get their tax incentives, will they stay in TN and will I have a job? These people haven't ever seen labor win a fight with the corporations. They don't know that unions can and do win most of these fights with the corporations.

I still want to know why so many didn't vote. I can't imagine with all that's gone on that that many workers would sit out. I can't help
but wonder if the snow had any effect. The plant closed early yesterday.

Well, enough ranting. Just my two cents.

[Kablooie]

26. I was at a company that refused union membership a few years ago.

It came down to the benefits.
The standard company benefits were better than what the union was offering.
Also salaries were comparable to what the union guaranteed.

Today most of those jobs are gone, sent overseas but thats happening at union shops as well.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

28. I may not be understanding,

a union provides benefits? We have always bargained those benefits with management.............

[Kablooie]

31. The union provides a standard set of benefits for all the unionized companies.

The companies bargain as a group every few years so they all get the same benefits.
Occasionally one company or group of companies want special exceptions so the contract will have clauses listing differences for particular companies but they are few.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

37. Is this in the US?

Seriously, I am involved in my union and have never heard of this idea...........

[JaneyVee]

11. The progressive agenda IS representing workers. They quoted

One VW worker as saying they want to keep costs low to compete with Mexico. Ah, a race to the bottom with wages. Meanwhile, millions of UAW union members are doing just fine without a race to the bottom. Plain and simple, these workers were strong armed by a coercive senator.

[alarimer]

12. The progressive agenda IS the worker's agenda

Anyone who believes otherwise has fallen into the GOP/right wing nut/ Tea Party asshole sinkhole.

Maybe you're too much of a redneck to get that the anti-union bullshit is just meant to keep workers cowering in fear of their corporate masters and voting against their own best interests.

The biggest fatcats are corporate CEO's, in any case.

[spanone]

17. fat cats? who are the fat cats?

[spanone]

5. the state republican politicians were doing the union busting.

u.s. senator bob corker / governor bill haslam

[socialist_n_TN]

16. Yep. And don't forget the local legislators who threatened......

to remove the incentives they gave VW to move to Chattanooga in the first place. Add in the millions of dollars in Koch brothers money for billboards and radio ads.

As I said in another post on another thread, having lived in the south all of my life, I wasn't assured that this organizing effort would succeed. The class consciousness of the US worker is not very high to begin with and that consciousness is even lower among southern workers. Because of propaganda and conditioning, to the southern worker, a business owner is God and unions are the Devil.

I've heard a saying all my life and it sums up the propaganda and conditioning very well, IMO. "If you're so smart, why ain't you rich?" When you've got generations hearing this phrase all of their lives, equating wealth with intelligence, it's pretty easy to allow the "smart ones" to take the responsibility, even if it's to your economic detriment.

[Seeking Serenity]

6. Maybe some of the "no" votes

were against the idea of being represented by the UAW.

[HappyMe]

7. I thought it was a bit odd.

Maybe the workers felt that it wasn't necessary.

[Sunlei]

8. I wondered why 14 plants had only 1,500 'able to vote' workers.

Does Tenn. lease their prison workers to VW?

[madville]

9. Automation and technological advances

It's pretty standard these days, a typical factory that might of employed 1000 people decades ago would probably not have over 100 human employees today and higher production output.

A couple of decades from now the same factory might have 10 or 20 people, a few management types and some technicians to repair the machines and robots, but eventually there will just be machines that repair the other machines.

Union membership will continue to decline in manufacturing because employment will continue to decline in that sector as more task are automated and less humans are needed.

[Sunlei]

10. WV Tenn. has only 1,500 workers in total?

[madville]

13. What is so unbelievable about it?

Even if it's 15 different plants, 100 non-management employees per plant would be about right in this day and age. In 20 years it will probably be 50 employees per plant and in 50 years, no employees per plant.

The goal in manufacturing is to eliminate human labor completely.

[Sunlei]

21. ok I found the "job number" stats from them.

VW Chatt. 1,400 Acres
Employment: More than 3,200 Volkswagen employees
More than 9,500 indirect supplier employees
http://www.volkswagengroupamerica.com/facts.html

so only 1500 'able to vote' 'employees'.

[badtoworse]

14. You don't automatically do better because you're in a union

Early in career, I briefly worked in a union, but I didn't like it. There is no question in my mind that I've personally done way better without a union.

A previous employer of mine owned a number of power plants with some being union and others non-union. The non-union guys had benefits at least as good and made more money. Reason? A substantial portion of the non-union compensation was tied to bonuses. If the plant achieved certain goals (efficiency, safety, environmental and performance against the budget), they could earn almost 20% in bonus compensation. The guys were very good and always came close to maxing out on the bonus. Management was delighted to pay the bonus becuase the excellent plant performance meant more money for the company. Needless to say, the guys were happy, as well.

The union did not want any compensation tied to performance and as a result, they did not do as well.

[socialist_n_TN]

22. I'm assuming those bonuses were on top of some sort of guaranteed salary or wage.......

Who do you think set the bottom line on those salaries and wages? Because the guarantees in the unionized plants, your guarantee was higher than it would have been if it ALL was non-union. In addition, I'd bet that even the bonus levels were positively affected by the unionized plants.

Fortunately (unfortunately?), this neo-liberal idea of the benefits of capitalism positively affecting the rest of us is being torn down day by day. It might not affect you depending on your age, but over the long term it WILL affect your descendants. Those bonuses you're so proud of will eventually come on top of a guarantee of perhaps minimum wage. And then those bonus levels will then become impossible to reach.

Of course, you've got yours and you'll be retired or dead by then, so it won't matter will it?

[badtoworse]

25. In the power industry, the market sets the bottom line for these guys

We generally hired ex-Navy because they have the discipline and technical knowledge to operate a modern power plant - it's a lot like running a ship. You can't just hire people off the street to do it. It's a specialty and finding qualified people can be a challenge, especially if the plant is located in the asshole of nowhere (where a lot of plants are). We routinely reviewed surveys of compensation in the power business to be sure we were competitive in terms of what we paid. Base salaries for non-union plant operators are generally in the $60k - $70k range in the northeast. More experienced guys or specialists might do 10% - 15% better. On top of this, they get health insurance subsidized by the company, 401k with a 3% match, paid vacations and can earn 15% - 20% in bonus compensation. Overall, I think this is a very good package.

I don't see how salaries in this industry could be driven down to minimum wage. These guys don't flip burgers; they do a job that requires very specialized knowledge and which can be dangerous if you don't know what you are doing. The reality is that we all operate in a global market. The guys I'm talking about offer a valuable service that is in demand. You can't say that about unskilled labor. Unless you change the structure of the global market, unskilled labor will be priced close to the world price (which isn't very high). I don't have a solution for that

[socialist_n_TN]

30. Ah, the infamous "market". The "Invisible Hand" at work......

What's gonna happen when they bring in foreign workers that will work at half (or less) of what you guys work for? And if you think that safety is some sort of prime consideration for a for-profit industry, NO MATTER WHAT THAT INDUSTRY IS, you are sadly mistaken. In a for-profit industry, profit is the ONLY thing that matters. Of course unlike a lot of wealthy idiots in the news today, most of the capitalists and their apologists won't actually say that out loud. They'll mouth the platitudes and then do what they have to do to improve the bottom line including ignoring safety regs. Look at WV, the BP spill, that fertilizer plant in TX. etc., etc.

I would also be willing to bet that those surveys of compensation that you're talking about includes union workers too, which would bring the averages up.

[badtoworse]

34. I'm pretty well tuned into the power business

I don't know of anyone who's bringing in foreign workers to run their plants. I'm comfortable in my own skin and proud of the track record the industry has, especially the companies I have worked for.

[roody]

23. I am a union worker and I am so

glad to have employment rights. It is much more than salary. If the workplace is not a union shop, the union has little influence.
Also it is good to work under a negotiated contract.

[ellie]

18. I hope VW packs up and leaves TN

Fuck those idiots.

[HappyMe]

19. Yeah, that will help.

[sked14]

20. Why would they pack up and leave TN?

Why would you want all those people to lose their jobs?

[pampango]

35. If VW wants 'work councils' like they have in Germany, it wil not happen in a right-to-work state.

The company wanted a union. They were not fighting it. The lesson for VW is that they cannot have a union, even if they want one, in Tennessee. I'm not sure that is enough of a reason for them to pack up and leave, but it should influence their decision if and when they build another VW plant in the US.

[socialist_n_TN]

36. Yep, I agree. IF I were a work's council member from the German union.......

I would vote to keep that second line of vehicles that is between Chattanooga and Mexico (a plant which IS unionized) out of Chattanooga. If you believe in solidarity at all as a unionist, you want as much of the work as possible to go to other union workers.

IOW, if it's between a non-union Chattanooga location and a unionized Mexican location and I was a member of the German union (and had no national implications), I'd say give it to Mexico.

[snooper2]

27. Yeah! They should just get the fuck out of there!

because, um....wait , huh? LOL

[ellie]

33. Why indeed

Why Volkswagen is helping a union organize its own plant
BY LYDIA DEPILLIS

Well, VW is kind of different, as automakers go. It understands how having a union can boost productivity and allow it greater flexibility in adjusting to downturns. It should know: The rest of its plants are unionized too.

While the details of the arrangement would be ironed out after the election, works councils -- which are elected by all workers in a factory, both blue and white collar, whether or not they belong to the union -- usually help decide things like staffing schedules and working conditions, while the union bargains on wages and benefits.

BMW likes its works councils too, though. Apparently, some politicians think they know what's good for auto makers better than the companies do themselves.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/02/10/why-volkswagen-is-helping-a-union-organize-its-own-plant/

end snip
VW wants the union and works councils to boost productivity. The workers rejected the union. Will the works council be voted on? Or will Corker mess that up too? Why would VW stay when the repuke politicians think they know better than the automaker how to run its plant?

[Logical]

24. I BIL loves his job at the Ohio Honda plant. nt

[brewens]

29. They think they don't need the union partly because even though they don't belong,

they benefit from organized labor. They have their good job, wages and benefits They're working class heroes in a vital industry and they produce things. They deserve good money and that's the way it's always been, right?

We needed that to pass to grow the labor movement again, not so much to help those specific workers. That's also why those Republican politicians that helped defeat it will be so proud of what they did. Every victory, no matter how big or small helps beat down the working class.

[socialist_n_TN]

32. Eventually people WILL realize that the class war...

is a zero-sum game. When the owners win, the workers lose and vice versa. Of course, if this vote is any indication, we'll probably be starting totally over when workers DO realize this basic fact.

And you're right. The VW workers are making whatever they're making because the UAW negotiated the standard for the industry in this country. And that's not to mention the working conditions that they work under. Time off, overtime pay, 40 hour week, 8 hour day, job security, EVERYTHING is under attack by the neo-liberal agenda represented by Corker, Haslem, et. al. These things that everybody is complacent over (like the workers that voted AGAINST union representation) are merely laws that can be overturned at any time the neo-liberal contingent in Congress (Republican AND Democrat) have enough votes to do so.