For those pissed off by the SI cover

[B2G]

Google male models and then get back to me on how women are 'objectified'.

https://www.google.com/search?q=male+models&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=X8wAU_qpJKWIyAG55YHwCw&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=621

[NightWatcher]

1. slow news day, huh?

People are trying to find things to get them angry?

Sounds like Fox Snooze Syndrome, I wanna get mad, oh look somebody did something I didn't have an opinion on, but now I'm pissed.

[B2G]

2. Not sure if that is directed at me

but the point is that models of both sexes are objectified, not just women.

[NightWatcher]

5. not directed at you but those who are looking for problems where none exist

Our society prefers beauty and objectifies everything. Beautiful women, beautiful men, beautiful cars, parks, food....

[B2G]

6. Completely agree n/t

[seabeyond]

3. are we starting OPs and swarming the threads, giggling and joking, dehumanizing and

pornifying these men for our use as things?

when we do, and on a regular basis, ... get back to me.

[B2G]

4. I can't control who posts what in here

But I will say I was surprised that my Google search yielded no clothed men.

[seabeyond]

7. sidestep the issue. that would be the bullshit. address teh post or not, i do not care, but do not

try and dismiss womens issues with a slight of hand.

[B2G]

8. There is no 'sleight of hand'

It's a fact that male models are photographed in the exact same way as women models.

No one seems outraged by that.

[seabeyond]

9. for those pissed.... i made clear to you the issue. you ignore.

[Schema Thing]

10. "dehumanizing"?

[seabeyond]

11. when you create a human being as an ass, or a part, or a use, a tool, that would be the very

definition of dehumanizing a person.

[The Straight Story]

13. When you create a thing that says people on DU hate women and they are misogynists

because of every little action you can think on - well, that seems dehumanizing to me as well.

[msanthrope]

14. How about when you insist on calling them, "dear?" You know, when they have asked

you not to, and you laugh and persist in using the term?

Would that be "dehumanizing?"

[seabeyond]

15. i was told calling a woman, a woman, was sexist. are you stalking, following around to put this

silliness on every post i make? how many years are you and polly gonna obsess on this.

and this will be the last time i reply to you.

go at it haus.

[polly7]

85. Another lie.

I worked all weekend, I've never followed you around to post 'silliness' (unless pointing out your never-ending lying is silliness, which to you I'm sure it must seem that way).

And, you laughed at msanthrope and claimed every right to call her 'dear' after she asked you to stop because it was sexist and she didn't appreciate it - because .... 'Freedom of Speech'!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4075849

lmfao.

Come on now, if you're going to make claims, at least have something truthful to back them up.

Isn't there some rule here about calling out posters who haven't even participated in the thread?

And why are you following this poster around?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1018&pid=575837

[Squinch]

29. "Dear?" Really?

[seabeyond]

35. i am such a sexist i am. and her and polly follow me around repeatedly saying this shit.

like. my bad.

[Squinch]

37. I got that once. Someone saying that it was horrible for me to call someone "dear." I thought

it was a joke.

....Well...it is a joke....

[seabeyond]

39. the other day i called a woman, a woman. she said the same shit. from the same crowd.

nothing obvious there.

i would think the only reason woman would be offensive is if you are not a woman. but then, that is just me.

[joeglow3]

71. Why do you get to decide what someone is offended by?

[polly7]

51. Wtf are you going on about.

Last edited Mon Feb 17, 2014, 12:08 AM - Edit history (2)

You seem obsessed with me. It's getting creepy. If you don't like being called on your sexist hypocritical bullshit .....don't do it. And stop bringing up my name whenever you need something extra to bitch about, I haven't been here for days. Come to think about it, that's when you start with the lying and poor me crap, when you think I won't see it. I saw it. Stop now.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4079899

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4074989

[msanthrope]

42. Yes, really. Would you accept a man calling you "dear" repeatedly, after

being told not to?

[Schema Thing]

16. "create a human being" dafuq you on about?

There is nothing more human than sexual desire (and for that matter the desire to be sexually desired).


Deal with that fact before you lecture other people.

[seabeyond]

17. this is the opposite of sexual desire. it is all about using a thing. be it an ass, a donkey, a hole

in a fence.

[seabeyond]

18. which really is not the point. i addressed the OP. bullshit argument. the rest, not interested.

go at it, haus, to you, too.

done

[Major Nikon]

54. So looking at the SI Swimsuit edition = bestiality?

"Sex Object" literally has no meaning unless you are referring to something like a vibrator.

[Logical]

81. You honestly expect no man to ever look at a woman's ass and admire it?? nt

[LostOne4Ever]

12. Oooookay

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=male+models

Now you google false equivalence and you get back to me. Ah hell im in good mood:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=false+equivalency

Now how many swimsuit issues has SI had that focused on male models? What does modeling swimsuits have to do with sports again?

[B2G]

19. So is it just SI that is the problem

or the fact that women are photographed like this at all?

[seabeyond]

22. you seem to be ignoring the whole issue of putting it on du for the men to play, dehumanize women,

create a hostile and insulting environment on du.

but yea... how would you play your game if you didnt ignore that facts.

[B2G]

30. I am not 'playing a game'

And I certainly didn't have time to read 600+ posts in that thread.

But I did get the gist of it, which lead to my OP.

[seabeyond]

36. then you might take into consideration the actual issue when people tell you instead of ignoring it

when we have repeated threads of men put into a position of dehumanization, and the women come on and hoop, holler, used as a tool to be used and not seen as a person, degrading and demeaning, then you have an equivalent argument. not gonna happen.

[B2G]

43. So is the problem that the pictures were posted here or

that they exist at all?

[seabeyond]

46. i have made my point a number of times and still seems to elude you.

[theHandpuppet]

60. Yep. That's the way I felt, actually.

That is, why it was posted to DU. It was embarrassing and dehumanizing. And frankly, I have every right to feel that way. There are times (too many, lately) that I feel DU is not a woman-friendly place and it seems some threads are posted to just to "put us in our place" and remind us of our true worth.

[seabeyond]

63. "put us in our place" that absolutely was what it was about. and yes. it makes it hostile toward

women. and yes, there are many that feel that and do not say anything. so.... i have no problem speaking up, and i will contiue to when told where my and others place is, or to shut up, or to lower my eyes in shame or whatever be said.

cause

it is not right.

woman, lol. thank you for this post. felt good to speak out.

[theHandpuppet]

64. Thank you for speaking out, seabeyond

There are probably many of us out here who have been so worn out from years of this bullshit that we've lost our voice. I'm glad you have yours. Keep standing up and speaking out.

[seabeyond]

66. absolutely. i so get and understand. i hear from way too many women, especially recently,

but for a couple years now. hell ya. i get why. and my time and others time will come when we say... fuckin done and will be others to do. lol. i get that. and that is why i stay, even though sometimes i think.... but. we always come back to, not yet.

[laundry_queen]

82. That's exactly what it feels like and I've noticed it too.

I have felt that way about DU for awhile now. Never used to feel that way, but I do now.

[redqueen]

20. To turn the tables would require much more than swapping out male models for female ones.

We would also need to be living in a society in which men's value as human beings was diminished, and their value as sex objects and decorations made paramount.

Men would have to have grown up in a world in which they were conditioned to see themselves as objects first and people second. They would have to be conditioned to continually survey their appearance in order to feel they were fitting in in society.

I could go on but I should not have to, especially on a progressive board.

[B2G]

21. Are you trying to argue that men aren't physically pressured?

Really? What do you call constantly being bombarded with erectile dysfunction commercials, hair replacement therapies and fitness propaganda?

We are ALL constantly being subjected to a culture that values beauty and physical perfection...not just women.

[redqueen]

23. The fact that you seem to have managed to convince yourself that the MRA spin is true,

that is, that men are under equal pressure with respect to their appearance, is a sad testament to how successful their insidious disinformation campaign has been.

Because no, men and women are not subjected to the same volume or number of messages and pressures regarding their appearance. Not by fucking light years.

[B2G]

28. Yes they are

Just because you're hypersensitive to the messages aimed at women, doesn't mean there aren't just as many aimed at men.

And it's not just physical appearance. It's phyicality. Strength. Perfomance. Emotional toughness.

[redqueen]

31. Emotional toughness.

You think objectification involves portraying human beings as emotionally tough.

Yeah, I'm done in this thread. When people demonstrate repeatedly that they neither understand, nor care to understand, issues which don't affect them personally, it's a waste of time to continue engaging.

[B2G]

32. Agree, it's a waste of your time

Because your mind is made up and you aren't willing to entertain anyone else's point of view in any fashion whatsoever.

Hope you have a wonderful day Red.

[Major Nikon]

56. If your reeducation campaign didn't include guilt by association, appeals to emotion,

and other assorted fallacies and derision, it might be better received, but then again you might not be left with much else.

Just sayin'

[bettyellen]

73. expectations of performance and emotional toughness for men are not analogous to being objectified

but they are the outcome of a sexist mindset. we haven't really touched on society's expectations of how women should behave when they aren't posing- but I am sure you could think of some examples of that too.

[laundry_queen]

83. +1 nt

[The Straight Story]

24. Of course, because on DU you are the only progressive

and it is that kind of crap that people are upset by. Not your desire, and ours, for equality.

You don't want folks to treat all women in one specific way? Great - don't do the same to men and think they all don't have issues or problems either. And don't say you don't because you just said:

"Men would have to have grown up in a world in which they were conditioned to see themselves as objects first and people second."

You think we didn't? I watched TV growing up, read books, magazines. Men had roles too that we all don't fit in. The jock. Being mr unfeeling and told not to cry because it is weak. Play chess and D&D? You are not a 'real' man. You should be working on cars, drinking beer and hunting.

My best friend was a jock, felt pressured to play football and such - then he got injured. He hung out with me after that and learned to play D&D. I had some action figures (ok, star wars dolls if you like) that I would toss out the second story window and he I would use a string with a loop on it as a game to try and snatch them and pull them back up. Just simple fun to me. He had fun with it as well.

But I won't ever forget him looking at me and telling me he hoped the other guys in the hood here didn't see him doing it. Because he was supposed the be tough, out having sex and drinking with the other football guys.

I didn't fit in - because yeah, us guys are conditioned as well. Girls? They didn't give me a second look - but if I were on the football team? They would have. Chess players got nada. We weren't 'real men'. Women wanted objects - football players, super fit guys, successful ones (not intellectually) who had all the connections from the team, and so on.

[B2G]

25. Exactly right.

This whole 'I'm more persecuted than you' thing is ridiculous.

Thanks for posting.

[redqueen]

27. Keep demonstrating your ignorance of feminist issues.

Like I said, no one is surprised by any of the shit going on here lately.

And please do continue to pretend that men are equally oppressed as women. There are other groups that do the same thing.

[The Straight Story]

33. oh, so THAT is the problem eh

"And please do continue to pretend that men are equally oppressed as women"

You don't care about people being oppressed - from people of color to disabled people to those terrible men.

Cause you are a bigger victim than the rest so the only fight you are concerned with is for one group.

Anyone else has issues? Oh - so sorry - you aren't as oppressed as me so you can't understand.

Only I can and only I can get it and lead the way.

And you wonder why I post the replies I do.

I think others get it. You want to talk about being progressive? Try looking at more than just one issue. Try feeling compassion for others - oh wait, they don't deserve it because they have not been through what you have and don't belong to the only group that can have problems.

Syrians, Palestinians, kinds growing up in the congo, no one else can can complain or have their issues brought up and remarked on or kicked because they are not women in the US. They are just...well...objects out there on the internet.

It all revolves around you and a few friends in one group - the only ones oppressed and objectified and used in society. No matter that others are killed by drones, kept in poverty by the wealthy few, that we hold up medicine or are destroying the environment. No, the only issue at hand is that some women chose to pose for a magazine.

And I am the one with the problem...go figure.

[one_voice]

40. Could you please clarify this...

And please do continue to pretend that men are equally oppressed as women. There are other groups that do the same thing.

I don't understand that last part--Are you saying there are other groups that pretend they are equally oppressed as women but it's just 'pretend'--they're really not?

I don't want to misunderstand your point.

[redqueen]

41. I'm saying that there are oppressed groups, and there people who make the argument that no group is

more oppressed than the other - or at least not in the ways that they prefer not to see for themselves, or that they'd prefer others didn't see.

I'm sure you're familiar with groups which go around saying that white people are just as oppressed as black people, just in different ways. Or that homosexual people aren't oppressed and that they're in fact privileged because they get "special treatment".

Well there are also those who play that same game with respect to other groups of people where there is a history one group being oppressed and the other group doing the oppression (sadly, in the case of the oppression of women, due to the insidiousness and ubiquitousness of the indoctrination, there are also many members of the oppressed group assisting in their own oppression - e.g. mothers who teach their daughters that 'certain' women 'are asking for it', that abortion is morally wrong and nobody should have access to this medical procedure, etc.).

[one_voice]

45. Thank you.

[cliffordu]

65. Disingenuous much?

Any example that varies from your script, met with ridicule and contempt but absolutely zero interest in discussion. Never addressed what was actually said by that poster, just another hysterical accusation and a veiled smear.

Yawn.

[In_The_Wind]

79. Many of the girls I went through high school with felt the way you've described.

That attitude hurts everyone.

I never fit in either because I was different from others in my school.

[The Straight Story]

26. Oh, and let's not forget

How many young men were conditioned to see themselves as soldiers and how many went to their deaths because of it.

Don't like war and the army? You aren't a man.

We have been canon fodder. Shot to pieces and many have come home a mess (when they did make it home).

It is not all about men vs women - more like the wealthy and the elite vs those they keep pinned under them.

Growing up we were expected to have certain roles, qualities, etc. Like playing with dolls with a girl down the street? You were weird. Want a teddy bear for your birthday? What is wrong with you, you are a boy!

You think us 'men' can't understand? Oh, well, that is because we are men I guess and can't possibly have had anything similar happen to us. Which is basically doing the same damn thing to us that others have been doing forever - telling us what we can and cannot feel or know.

[davidn3600]

52. The biggest problem with feminism is you feel gender roles only apply to women

You seriously believe men don't feel any social pressures at all?

You seriously believe men don't have to conform to any gender roles or gender stereotypes?

In the southern end of Orange County, former friends have stopped talking to Lori Duron and her husband. Slurs and threats arrive by email. Their son calls himself a boy, but has gravitated toward Barbies, Disney princesses and pink since he was a toddler. In a blog and a book she wrote, Duron chronicles worries that would seem trivial if her child were a girl: Whether he would be teased for his rainbowy backpack. Whether a Santa would look askance at him for wanting a doll.

"If a little girl is running around on the baseball team with her mitt, people think, 'That's a strong girl,'" said her husband, Matt Duron, who, like his wife, uses a pen name to shield the boy's identity. "When my 6-year-old is running around in a dress, people think there's something wrong with him."

Beyond childhood, the gender imbalance remains stark when students choose college majors: Between 1971 and 2011, a growing share of degrees in biology, business and other historically male majors went to women, an analysis by University of Maryland, College Park sociologist Philip N. Cohen shows. Yet fields like education and the arts remained heavily female, as few men moved the opposite way. Federal data show that last year less than 2% of preschool and kindergarten teachers were men.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/dec/26/local/la-me-one-way-gender-revolution-20131227

[theHandpuppet]

61. Well said.

Thank you.

[BainsBane]

34. Google history, American, European and World

and get back to me about how you don't get the difference between privilege and oppression.

[Le Taz Hot]

38. I don't remember anyone posting any of these pictures

as a separate thread on GD.

There. I got back to you.

[MadrasT]

44. False equivalency.

Actual progressives understand that there is no comparison.

[Spider Jerusalem]

47. Not just the SI cover actually.

The SI cover is representative of something that goes a lot deeper, something that's so pervasive a lot of people don't even notice it. Here's an interesting exercise for you: look at pretty much any magazine or newspaper profile or interview with a woman, whether actor, politician, athlete, or musician. See how long it takes the interviewer to describe her clothing, her hairdo, her shoes. Now read any magazine or newspaper interview with a male actor/politician/athlete/etc. See if they even mention what he's wearing, unless it's eccentric or exceptionally scruffy or dandyish.

[B2G]

48. And here's an interesting exercise for you

Read this thread.

Now count the number of disparaging remarks made about these womens' bodies. See how many mention the size of their asses, their weight, their thighs, the fact that they're photoshopped.

Yep, we're surrounded by progressive feminists here at DU.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4508829

[Spider Jerusalem]

49. Actually, we're not

DU is extremely unprogressive in quite a lot of areas, honestly. (Although for what it's worth I don't see the person who posted that OP making any comment on the other issues around this, either. That's kind of like pointing to the fact that some Afghans are jihadis, and pointing out that another Afghan of indeterminate political leanings said something critical about the USA, and then claiming that makes them a terrorist.)

[CreekDog]

88. well you aren't progressive on women's issues, you would deny women maternity coverage

and you're female?

[B2G]

89. Ooo! I have my very own stalker!!

I have truly arrived.

[CreekDog]

90. Well you arrived bearing Men's Rights nonsense posts

quite a while ago.

[B2G]

91. I've always wanted a stalker

I shall call you Squishy.

[CrispyQ]

50. Show me the ads where men are objectified like this:

Read this article. It is spot on. Objectification hurts both men & women.

How sexist advertising causes men to adopt 'violent and sexually aggressive behavior' as they aspire to the macho ideal

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2322136/How-sexist-advertising-causes-men-adopt-violent-sexually-aggressive-behavior-aspire-macho-ideal.html#ixzz2tVfEVs8R

snip...

Macho advertising could trigger anti-social behavior in young males, according to a new study.
Researchers at the University of Manitoba in Winnipeg, Canada, analyzed 527 print adverts pulled from a slate of popular U.S. men's magazines, including Wired, Maxim and Golf Digest.
They found that 56per cent of the images depicted 'hyper-masculine' ideals, encouraging readers to adopt violent or sexually aggressive tendencies.

===
My two cents on the offensive thread, the girls on the SI cover were presented as nice asses for men to do with whatever they want. To gaze, to drool, to masturbate to, whatever & that was also how the DUer who posted it presented it. It has no place on a political discussion board in that context. I thought I was in fucking 8th grade reading the spew in that thread.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

57. excellent! Thank you!!!

[CrispyQ]

58. I have been trying to figure out that first image & I believe she is floating dead in the water?

I'm aghast that I live in a culture where images like the above are acceptable. We have allowed the corporate doctrine of "profit over everything else" to drive our culture & our politics. The result is a culture that is a cesspool & a planet that is on ecological collapse.

[freshwest]

87. +1

[dilby]

67. Take it you have never heard of Andrew Christian

http://www.andrewchristian.com/

[CrispyQ]

68. This is a catalog, not a major magazine or a newspaper or a billboard.

[dilby]

69. Andrew Christian is a Brand.

That does advertisements just like the ones you are complaining about in major magazines.

[CrispyQ]

80. I googled 'images for andrew christian ads"

& scrolled through screens & screens of images of their ads & saw one photo shoot depicting violence/oppression. Interestingly, it was men being violent against men.

Like one feminist pointed out, men are afraid of each other. And why shouldn't they be? Men are the major perpetrators of violence & women & the weak are predominately their victims. It sucks for both men & women, cuz we could be better as a species, all evidence to the contrary.

[Texasgal]

53. How does "pissed off"

equate with the notion that women are objectified in general?

I'm not "pissed off"... disappointed more if anything.

[RiffRandell]

55. Actually, this is one of my several hobbies.

Searching random shit on the internet to NOT get outraged over...very satisfying.

[MO_Moderate]

62. Welcome to Amish Underground

[Harmony Blue]

78. Pretty much haha

that is what the argument boils down to in a nutshell.

[BainsBane]

86. I gotta marvel

and folks who imagine there is something new or unusual bout the notion that such images are prohibited in public spaces. I mean, I know the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is just too wacky lefty for some, but prohibitions against a hostile environment have been in place in workplaces and public spaces for well over 25 yrs. I have to wonder where you folks have been for the past few decades? Or did you think DU was your private locker room where no women are allowed? Or is that what you are hoping it will become if you just keep pressing hard enough?

[LanternWaste]

70. What is the is the relevant and objective disparit

What is the is the relevant and objective disparity of male v female glamour pictures, and on what peer-reviewed data is that number based on? Are ther numbers equal? Close to being equal? Rather disparate?

Who is the sub-literate, petulant idiot who believes that a snap-shop and anecdotal list is anything other than a snap-shop and anecdotal list, and pretends to themselves that it is in fact, an objective source from which to make a premise?




Or are we simply pointing towards the obvious and anecdotal because that is, in fact, all we have at our disposal?

[NCTraveler]

72. You have just use one of your two alloted "derp" moments for the day.

The committee has clearly detailed why this falls outside of the "usage of derp rules" for one of your derp moments. There are no requests taken for review to make sure your op was fairly evaluated with respect to the "usage of derp rules".(Your op is so derpish we wouldn't evaluate your request even if a process was in place) With only one derp moment available to you for the rest of the day, please make it count.

[pnwmom]

74. I don't think people here are pissed off by that cover as much as questioning why it belongs on DU,

a progressive political site, half of whose readers are probably women.

[CTyankee]

75. It certainly is in MY estimation!

[Vashta Nerada]

76. David Beckham in his underwear makes me feel like less of a man.

[Bobbie Jo]

77. Rightly so.....

He's fucking gorgeous.

[Warpy]

84. You're missing something

Most of the shirtless beefcake photos are directed at other men, either in gay skin mags or body builder trades.

In any case, they're not photoshopped into the tortured poses displayed by adolescent fantasy comic book women or porno magazines--or those women clad in thong underwear and nothing else on that SI cover.

They crossed a serious line this year. That cover had nothing to do with swimsuits and everything to do with porn--soft porn but porn.

While you'd love it if women simply shut up and went back to being voiceless decorative objects, it's not going to happen. Get used to it.