Why would a worker in TN vote to join the union that failed to protect big 3 workers?

[Recursion]

Last edited Mon Feb 17, 2014, 02:11 AM - Edit history (1)

Like, spectacularly failed to protect it.

It's a rough thing to say, but I think we should be honest here.

EDIT: sorry, "Detroit" was shorthand for "rust belt auto industry". I'm not saying the UAW had anything to do with how Wall Street robbed the literal city blind. Sorry.

[JI7]

1. was that the union's fault ?

[el_bryanto]

2. They may have been to concillatory with management is the argument

protecting some jobs at the expense of others - and as they lsot more and more jobs things got worse and worse.

Bryant

[leftyohiolib]

40. " they may be " is this a guess?

[el_bryanto]

47. Less a guess than me repeating what I have heard others say

I'm not an expert on the Unions though.

Bryant

[leftyohiolib]

49. so then yes

[Recursion]

3. Did you see Roger & Me?

A lot of workers seemed to point a lot of fingers at the UAW leadership in that film, at least.

And no matter whose fault it was, the UAW workers aren't being protected very well.

my only union experience was the longshoremen, who seem to do better than UAW has, though that's not a comparable situation really.

[gkagejr]

4. Bigger Picture

Just my humble opinion but it's a bigger picture than the UAW failing to protect Detroit.

The Asian auto industry props up their auto manufacturers by manipulating their currency and value added taxes.
In Korea if a person buys an American manufactured auto they are automatically subjected to an audit by the Korean version of the IRS.

The Big 3 were slow to react to quality and economy issues. That's not on the union. There were poor designs and bad vehicle launches. Again not on the union's fault.

No doubt the UAW made plenty of mistakes of their own but as a former member we took concessions to help keep the labor costs below 10% of the cost to manufacture the car.

Detroit failed for a number of reasons but laying the blame at the feet of the UAW makes for good press but ignores the big picture.

[Recursion]

9. So what's the advantage to the worker in TN?

You're describing an organization that can't address the current threats to people's jobs. Plus its specific history of being too cozy with management.

The UAW has repeatedly sacrificed new and future hires to protect incumbent workers and union leadership. Maybe after that claims of solidarity don't sound very convincing.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

11. There are still union workers building cars in Detroit

If there were no unions...you can forget any hope for workers.

The UAW actually owned part of GM along with federal government after GM's 2008/2009 implosion and ensured car manufacture and jobs would stay in Detroit.

You need to learn more.

[Recursion]

13. Under two and now three tier contracts

Defend incumbency at all costs...

Seriously, would you call the UAW's defense of auto workers over recent decades effective?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

19. Against the backdrop of how other union representation is doing in a losing battle

Against capital, hell yeah! UAW and other unions fought WTO, NAFTA, and other free trade agreements for the reasons we are now seeing. Labor has lost most of its negotiating power.

[Recursion]

23. And, except for SEIU, show little interest in getting it back

The individuals in Chattanooga can accede to management demands and screw new hires just as well as the UAW can, and cheaper.

The one big advantage I see is amplification, but when was the last tools down other than the one in '07 that achieved AFAICT nothing (and wasn't amplified at Ford for that matter)?

[roody]

35. Employment rights, a negotiated contract

[TreasonousBastard]

38. Workers councils...

VW, like other German industrial companies, has almost a hundred years of experience dealing with problems directly on the factory floor, with the national union staying out of the little things.

I'm not completely familiar with how it all works, but most people who are tend to say it works pretty well for both sides when you take out the big confrontations.

[Notafraidtoo]

5. Detroit was destroyed by NAFTA

Detroit was destroyed by NAFTA, poor city planning with infrastructure and by not diversifying away from the auto industry's monopoly on project funds. If you believe that the American worker became middle class in this country with out labor organizing you are far too naive to even respond to.

Lets say you do know that labor organizing created the large American middle class not only in this country by the way but almost all first world country's the answer to the decline isn't less unions but more. Business doesn't compensate workers out of the kindness of their hearts, they compensate them because they have to. If you are willing to accept less then they will pay you less every time, people with BA's don't tend to leave money on the table no matter how much they already have.


Stop being submissive, stop short changing yourself and your family demand fair compensation.

[Historic NY]

52. Detroit was long gone before NAFTA...

it was an overbuilt city that was going to provided for the masses, a transportation product. People flocked to the city for automotive jobs..Detroit cornered the market as parts suppliers and skilled laborers followed the largest manufacturers took up stakes there and was hard for companies in other regions to compete. Companies like Packard, Hudson, American Motors came and built massive plants to keep up with GM, Chrysler & Ford.. The Big Three, got bigger as the competition was swallowed up in the post WW II era when the demand for cars was high. The 60's gave way to big guzzlers and fast cars..Detroit gave the customer what it wanted and more. The 70's downturn and in particiular the gas crunch on 1975, was the death rattle. The demand for economical cars and the CAFE Standards force companies to downsize and pretty much thrown anything out on the market. This open the market for cheap imports from Europe & Asia, mostly Japan. In many case they got sweet heart import schemes. They developed a reputation for reliable transportation while the wheels were falling off in Detroit.

As companies merged & folded in the post war boom....the city that overbuilt became a ghost town in some areas with un-needed housing and manufacturing plants. what was falling down with decay was burned down over the years by vandals. Hard economic times and loss of tax revenue and jobs put Detroit in the death spiral.

[snooper2]

57. You just summed it up better than I have ever seen

Perfect, bravo--


People forget their history, remind me again which of these fell apart after 10K miles?

[JaneyVee]

6. The union didn't fail to protect the workers, the car designers did.

UAW couldn't protect workers because no one was buying American cars. The union has no say in the business side, car design, or anything else having to do with the car company. There solely there for workers. Although I believe the UAW could use an overhaul.

[Recursion]

7. Given that, what's in it for the TN worker to join?

I'd like more jobs in this country to be unionized but I don't see the older larger unions selling themselves particularly well (except SEIU).

"Join us! We'll take your dues and be unable to stop the sector's collapse" doesn't seem like a good sell.

[JaneyVee]

8. Democracy in the workplace.

[Recursion]

15. That's another reason reason I love unions

It's also famously not UAW's strong suit; it's very top down.

[Union Scribe]

16. Yeah your love of unions is abundantly clear.

[Recursion]

18. It is to people who know me

I think "change or die" applies in labor just like anything else, though.

[2naSalit]

25. My goodness.

It is my understanding that it was the state legislature of Michigan that destroyed Detroit, the city. They took all the tax money and refused to use any of it to the benefit of the municipality.

If you are referring to the auto industry, it was not the union, it was the manufacturing base and auto parts manufacturers included who outsourced work and parts manufacturing to third world countries to maximize profit while trying to bust the unions... NAFTA was the big springboard that accelerated that process. Things would be far worse for the industry workers if UAW was not fighting for them all this time.

The issue in TN is that VW wanted to get the union in their factory because of the fact that what is going on in TN as far as worker's rights and power in the workplace is way out of step with they way they conduct business in the home country. Germany is an extremely progressive country when it comes to worker's rights, how they are included in the decision-making process in the work place as well as pension programs and training their workforce for career oriented participation. It's a totally different, and much better, ball game that we in this country should look into as a model for what we SHOULD be doing here instead of what we have... which is cramming the shaft ever further up our asses with every passing day.

[Recursion]

29. The city of Detroit's problems have everything to do with Wall Street

And nothing to do with unions. I should edit the OP because it looks like I'm talking about Detroit itself rather than the auto industry in and around it.

Yes, I do get why VW wants a union (I think more companies should... It takes a chaotic prices and make it more stable).

Why didn't VW move its plants to Mexico?

[2naSalit]

31. Why didn't VW move its plants to Mexico?

Couldn't tell you that one, I don't have any connections to them. Not interested in speculating on that.

[WinkyDink]

43. Unions are not for price-fixing purposes.

[pampango]

41. UAW membership maxed in 1978. By then the industry was already moving plants to rural areas and the

SunBelt states (right-to-work).

The auto industry had started to expand beyond the city and was building plants and putting offices in suburban and rural areas, and eventually sought refuge from the city's powerful unions in the nation's Sunbelt states and even overseas.

Membership in the United Auto Workers topped out at 1.5 million in 1978 and stands today at about 400,000, said Mike Smith, the union's archivist at Wayne State University's Walter Reuther Library.

"What happened in Detroit is not particularly distinct," said Kevin Boyle, a history professor at Northwestern University who has written extensively about his hometown. "Most Midwest cities had white flight and segregation. But Detroit had it more intensely. Most cities had deindustrialization. Detroit had it more intensely."

"Unlike cities such as Chicago or Philadelphia, where segregation produced disinvestment in certain neighbourhoods, the nature of segregation in Detroit meant that the entire city suffered disinvestment," Douglas Massey, a sociology and public affairs professor at Princeton, said in an email.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/business/detroit-decline-of-auto-industry-racial-history-blamed-for-city-s-economic-collapse-1.1377195

You are right about Germany and workers' rights there. VW management must be scratching their heads when workers reject a union when the company actually wants one so they can implement work councils. That would never happen in Germany.

[2naSalit]

54. Thanks for the clarification

I was not a union worker back in working prime but I saw a lot of what was addressed in the excerpt while it was happening, and lived near Chicago at the time. Since I was a semi driver, I often hauled auto parts and raw materials to and from the factories in the 70s - early 80s. I ended up transporting food mainly because the auto industry was going through the transition mentioned above. I knew a lot of union folks at the time. My knowledge of the way Germany works is from primary sources/German nationals I have close acquaintance with and cultural anthropology and polisci classes in college. Too bad we can't get a system like that going here.

[roody]

36. Employment rights, a negotiated contract

[pampango]

39. Good point. Unions cannot always protect workers from management stupidity. That is not an argument

for no/weaker unions.

In other countries powerful unions and 'smart' management go together. None have adopted a philosophy of "Management has been stupid in our auto industry. Let's weaken our auto workers' union to compensate for that."

The country with the most passenger car exports is Germany ($91 billion worth - 4 times the US' $22 billion) - strong auto union, higher pay in a country with 1/4 the population of the US.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

10. WTF? Your post is like saying 2008 financial meltdown

Was caused by minority homeowners. You've totally fixed blame on the wrong target.

[Recursion]

12. You don't distinguish between "caused" and "failed to protect"?

I do.

Would you say the UAW's protection of rust belt auto workers had been effective over the past 30 years or so? Or do the workers just owe it to the UAW to join, no matter what UAW's record is?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

14. Compared to other manufacturing sectors? Absolutely they have been

Far more effective than any other union in the private sector other than maybe the engineers and machinists of Boeing.

Why do you have it out for UAW when there are clearly more egregious examples of poor union leadership?

Or are you just playing apologist to the GOP arm twisting of Volkswagon factory workers as they got them to vote against unionizing under duress?

[Recursion]

17. I'm irritated by the idea that the TN workers "owe it" to the UAW to join

I'm still curious what would have happened if a locally-run union had been on the ballot.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

22. Zero negotiating leverage as opposed to quite a bit of

Negotiating leverage with UAW albeit diminished from previous decades.

[2naSalit]

28. It's not the workers'

"owing it to the UAW"... they owe it to themselves and the other workers in their state. And that's aside form the caveat that those workers who didn't want to join the union didn't have to to keep their jobs.

[elleng]

30. Politicians might not have made such a fuss,

but still would have done their best to defeat it.

[WinkyDink]

44. Oh, brother. You've not heard of "strength in numbers"? Ever wonder why corporations like bigness?

[Gman]

20. WTF are you talking about??

Do you even have a clue?

Fucking anti-union bullshit. How many picket lines have you crossed? Are you a scab?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

21. No. As demonstrated throughout this thread

[jazzimov]

24. That was one of Bob Corker's talking points.

Although he took it a step further and accused the UAW of "Destroying" Detroit.

[Recursion]

26. So, why not address it?

I'm not seeing a recent UAW track record, or plans for future changes, that justify calling the workers who voted against it stupid rubes. That said, I'm also curious why only less than 1500 out of 6000 were eligible to vote.

[WinkyDink]

45. Do you even understand the role of unions? They don't run companies, cities, or financial institu-

tions.

[elleng]

27. No one but management could have 'protected' 'Detroit' from their miserable decisions,

except maybe stockholders.

[Recursion]

32. Right, that's my point

That's the big threat to people's jobs right now, and it's not something UAW is even set up to address.

The big industrial unions are set up around the idea that there will always be X factories making up Y% of the local economy, and are a way of slicing that pie better. When the pie shrank, the unions' response was less than admirable (ask the younger workers on the third-tier contracts). Compare that to how the IBEW has dealt with construction slacks.

Hell, why not an IBEW-style hall, rather than entrenching the union in the particular factories where they start to view management as "partners"?

[WinkyDink]

46. Younger workers have jobs becasue of the older workers. And don't get me started on that. Too late:

I was a 30-yr teacher. Every single contract year it was always "We have to negotiate a higher % for the newbies, to ATTRACT them"; never "Let's show the newbies it is worth it to STAY."

Bah.

[pa28]

34. So I take it you would have voted "no" had you been a VW employee?

[Recursion]

37. Given the option of UAW or no representation I would have chosen UAW

I wouldn't have an answer to my own OP though if a coworker asked, except for amplification.

[melm00se]

42. many workers

value the union when it impacts their wallets.

From what I have read about the VW plant in TN that voted not to unionize the workers there are making more (very slightly but still more) than there UAW counterparts.

Voting to unionize and the union dues that would required would negative impact their take home pay.

[Boom Sound 416]

48. Whether you're right or wrong, you're right

While it's a quite debatable to what degree the UAW bares responsibility for the degraded US auto industry.

I would imagine folks in the south do feel the UAW does bare some (and maybe a great deal) of that responsibility.

[Iggo]

50. Oh! Thanks for the edit.

[Ikonoklast]

51. Ask the first employee who voted against the UAW after Volkswagen fires him.

[former9thward]

53. Why did he get fired?

Companies don't fire people just for the fun of it. It costs money to fire people and its costs a lot of money to hire/train people. I was a representative for the Steelworkers Union for nine years in Chicago. I represented workers who had gotten fired in hearings. You had to try to get fired to get fired from a steel mill. Anyone who has ever worked in a steel mill knows I'm telling the truth.

[Ikonoklast]

56. You'll have to wait for it to happen, but it will.

And in your experience, it is difficult to fire employees in a union setting.

I agree, as a former shop steward in a union shop.

In non-union shops in right-to-work states, it's done all the time. Employers know they can replace fired employees with fresh warm bodies in a heartbeat in this economy.

[Thinkingabout]

55. One of the available gains for VW in Tennessee would have been leaders of

UAW experience in dealing with auto manufacturers. A union is only as strong as its weakest link. A means of negotiating work place rules of safety, seniority and protection from rogue supervisors harassing employees. It is a means of negotiating salaries, pensions, vacations, and benefits like health insurance. Unions are good, have some negative points but overall much better to work with than trying to do everything on your own.