Can you spot three things that are different in these two pictures?

[Scuba]

[Th1onein]

1. I had not read of Michael Giles' case.

Perhaps a petition is in order?

[awoke_in_2003]

23. One thing the last 12 years ha taught me...

petitions mean nothing to those in power.

[Th1onein]

55. Are you following me around?

This is two posts you have answered of mine, on two disparate topics. Why is that?

[awoke_in_2003]

59. I answered two of your posts...

I must be some super sleuth or something.

[Th1onein]

60. Must be.

[awoke_in_2003]

63. I think I need to place you on ignore...

If you think I am following you because I answered you in too separate threads you are far too paranoid.

[Th1onein]

113. That sounds like a great idea!

While you're at it, learn how to spell, as well. (I hesitate to use the word "too" here, because, well.......nevermind.)

[arikara]

94. Maybe because you were both interested in the same topic?

Coincidence?

or...

[George II]

95. 30,000 posts between the two over 9-10 years, bound to bump into each other periodically.

[arikara]

104. I know, right?

Kind of puts me in mind of when I misdial a number, realize it and quickly hang up. Then some dude calls back some time later, could even be the next day demanding to know who called and why. By that time I have no idea at all of what he's talking about. I guess its my fault to some degree, I forget to have my glasses handy and try to wing it forgetting that there can be such fallout from this aging process.

[Th1onein]

111. What a nice person you are, Arikara.

Seriously.

[arikara]

114. Thank you!

I was having a bit of a bummer of an evening, and you just helped to turn that around. So you are pretty nice yourself.

[Th1onein]

115. Anytime you need a high five, I'm available.

[Th1onein]

112. So, let's just do nothing, right?

Give up before we've begun. Yes, that's always best.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

107. I think that might not be a bad idea at all. nt

[mercymechap]

2. A white (hispanic) shoots an innocent black teen

and gets applauded by the right, goes free. The other one is black, shoots in self-defense and gets time. Is that three?

1. White vs black.
2. attack vs self-defense
3. goes free/vs does time.

Otherwise, I give up.

[Scuba]

3. You're good at this.

[Fumesucker]

5. One possible fourth difference, in one case the person shot died and in the other one they didn't

Shot in the leg doesn't sound like it was fatal.

[spin]

8. A shot in the leg can be fatal it hits the femoral artery. (n/t)

[Mr.Bill]

14. True, but in Zimmerman's case

the victim was not there to tell his side of the story.

[etherealtruth]

4. OMG ... I had to google "Michael Giles"

I had not heard about his case. While I abhor the SYG laws (and how they have been applied) it is inconceivable that this young man would be sentenced to 25 years in prison ... while those that took a life (after instigating a confrontation) would walk free ... it boggles my mind.

[hack89]

7. Florida has strict mandatory sentences for gun crimes

Committing a crime with a gun in Florida will get you in serious trouble.

[mercymechap]

9. you forgot to add

"while black" to your "committing a crime".......

[hack89]

12. A white man would have gotten the same sentence

That is why they are called mandatory.

[daleanime]

20. ........

Thanks, I needed that.

[hack89]

26. So mandatory sentences are not mandatory? Got it. Nt

[daleanime]

53. Hummmnn, I wonder......

has there been any news worthy legal cases in florida involving guns? Wonder how those turned out?

[AnalystInParadise]

101. Yes there are three cases

1. Case one a Hispanic man goes free after shooting a teenager
2. Case two a white man gets jail time for attempting to shoot teenagers
3. Case three a black man potentially gets jail time for shooting someone

It appears that the key is to be Hispanic in Florida if you are going to shoot someone.

[morningfog]

58. They are only mandatory upon conviction.

[NoGOPZone]

33. he's got others if you liked that one. nt

[Scootaloo]

21. The trick seems to be the conviction...

Hell in Zimmerman's case, charges were a long shot

[Curmudgeoness]

22. I don't believe that. nt

[hack89]

27. I care about what you can prove

Can you show that mandatory sentences are ignored for white men? One or two example would be fine.

[madinmaryland]

28. Only if the that white man were to ever get convicted.

Thanks for the amusement.

[hack89]

32. So white people shooting each other are never convicted? Really. Nt

[Walk away]

45. No...just White men murdering Black men have an excellent chance...

of being acquitted.

[hack89]

48. Interracial murder is very rare

You might be right but there are very few cases to back you up.

[etherealtruth]

61. Inter-racial homicide is ~10%

"Low", but not rare.

[hack89]

62. Three were a total of three convictions in FL interracial SYG cases

Which is why mentioning percentages without the corresponding number of cases is disingenuous. Notice how that other study you posted did exactly that - did you ever wonder why? The sample size in Florida is not statistically significant to make any definitive statements.

[etherealtruth]

106. i had to make sure I replied to the appropriate post

I did ... you stated "Interracial murder is very rare" ... I simply stated that an ~ 10 percent occurrence is NOT very rare.

I am not sure what you are disputing? You made an assertion ... it is not true ... ?

[mercymechap]

109. What about the black

woman in Florida, who shot at the ceiling because her abusive husband was in her house and she wanted to scare him....she got 20 years in prison.....and unlike Zimmie, she didn't kill him, heck she didn't even shoot at him.

Like I said...."while black".....

[link:http://www.indianasnewscenter.com/news/top-news/Florida-Mom-Gets-20-Years-For-Firing-Warning-Shots-During-Confrontation-With-Husband--215667471.html|

[hack89]

110. She had not lived in the house for two months, they argued, she went to her car to get a gun ,

went back to confront her ex and shot just over his head into the wall - while her kids were standing next to him.

Her words to him as she went to get her gun was "I have something for your ass."

And to top it off, while waiting for trial, she was arrested for domestic assault for violating bail and punching out her ex-husband.

She was offered a three year plea bargain but turned it down - the jury convicted her in 12 minutes.

[mercymechap]

117. Like I said "while black"

she had more reason to stand her ground than that idiot GZ.

[Walk away]

78. I don't think they call whites killing blacks murder all of the time.

I doubt if black gun deaths are even investigated very much when whites pull the trigger.

[hack89]

81. Could be. Interesting to see if any studies have been done. nt

[Walk away]

83. You mean on "death by natural causes" by gun shot?

I think that's the point. There won't be any studies.

[cui bono]

96. You have to be convicted to get a sentence.

Know what I mean?

[mercymechap]

108. Yeah sure,

like Zimmerman..........if you're white, they can always accommodate the law to your favor.

[etherealtruth]

11. Commiting a crime with a gun ... anywhere SHOULD get one in serious trouble

What bothers me is the culture surrounding the SYG law in Florida ... from the outside (I am no legal scholar, in fact I am no scholar at all) it almost appears nonsensical.

From the reading I have done there does appear to be a racial component to the application of SYG... NOT the race of the person claiming SYG (or appealing to the sentiments of SYG) .... but the success of SYG appears to be contingent on the race of the person that was (in many cases) shot. (I do not know the race of the person Giles shot).

This young man clearly engaged in seriously poor judgement ... but, it appears he had the ability to shoot in a way that would seriously maim or kill and opted not to do so.

[hack89]

13. SYG in Florida favors the shooter regardless of race

We talked about this in excruciating detail during the Zimmerman mess.

[etherealtruth]

15. Oh, I do remember

I am recalling information that indicated that the race of the VICTIM not the shooter did impact the decision to apply SYG ... regardless, I think we both agree that this particular young man should not be imprisoned for 25 years. I see no benefit to society or his reported victim by doing this.

[hack89]

16. What do you mean?

SYG was applied equally to both black and white shooters - and black shooters had a slightly higher acquital rate.

[etherealtruth]

17. It had nothing to do with the race of the shooter

...the race of the VICTIM appears to be one of the most important aspects of the success of SYG



http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/florida-stand-your-ground-law-yields-some-shocking-outcomes-depending-on/1233133

Among the findings:

• Those who invoke "stand your ground" to avoid prosecution have been extremely successful. Nearly 70 percent have gone free.

• Defendants claiming "stand your ground" are more likely to prevail if the victim is black. Seventy-three percent of those who killed a black person faced no penalty compared to 59 percent of those who killed a white.

• The number of cases is increasing, largely because defense attorneys are using "stand your ground" in ways state legislators never envisioned. The defense has been invoked in dozens of cases with minor or no injuries. It has also been used by a self-described "vampire" in Pinellas County, a Miami man arrested with a single marijuana cigarette, a Fort Myers homeowner who shot a bear and a West Palm Beach jogger who beat a Jack Russell terrier.

• People often go free under "stand your ground" in cases that seem to make a mockery of what lawmakers intended. One man killed two unarmed people and walked out of jail. Another shot a man as he lay on the ground. Others went free after shooting their victims in the back. In nearly a third of the cases the Times analyzed, defendants initiated the fight, shot an unarmed person or pursued their victim — and still went free.

[hack89]

24. You have to look at the actual numbers

Interracial shootings extremely rare - there are a very small number of such cases. The differences are not statistically significant - one or two convictions at best. There are also cases that are still pending that could reverse those percentages overnight.

[etherealtruth]

31. Here is an interesting link that carefully examined the "numbers"

(I hope you go to the link... it is actually very interesting and directs one to respectable studies and provides some interesting information. Of course I snipped info that reinforces my belief ... but, it is an interesting paper with interesting and thought provoking info )

The Urban Institute’s Justice Policy Center conducted a study using the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Report for 2005-2009
and the analysis revealed that though less than 2% of homicides are eventually ruled to have
been committed in self-defense, that number contains a significant split between SYG states and those non-SYG states.

In Florida and other SYG states, a homicide is nearly twice as likely to
be ruled an act of self defense (2.6% as opposed to 1.46%). The data also revealed that such laws
introduce bias against black victims and in favor of white shooters.

In cases where the defendant was black and the victim was white, there was little difference between SYG states and other
states (1.4% versus 1.1%). However, when the defendant was white and the victim was black, 16.9% of the homicides were ru
led justified in SYG states and only 9.5% in non-SYG states.

The study also showed that the odds that a white-on-black homicide is ruled to have been justified is almost 10 times the odds a black-on-white shooting s ruled justified.


http://dreamdefenders.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/SYG_Shadow_Report_ICCPR.pdf

[hack89]

34. But again, interracial SYG is extremely rare

So those percentages translated into actual numbers produces a very small number of actual cases. In Florida there were about 10 in the entire history of SYG.

[etherealtruth]

41. They looked at larger numbers(assocaited with self defense) and included all states with SYG laws

I think the number are more significant.

It not only looks at white-black shooting, but white-white shooting and black-black shooting ... in all cases if the victim is black SYG is more successful. Most examination of homicides, self-defense and SYG data appears to indicate the same thing ... it comes down to the victim's race (not the shooters).

It is snowing again and I have to be up (earlier than usual) for work, so I can't pull the other studies ... I would call the data 'interesting' if the data sets did not include senseless deaths.

I think racism remains a serious problem in the US and I think the racial components of this and other laws need to be looked at carefully (admitting I despise the SYG laws)

[hack89]

42. Which means that black shooters are getting off in SYG cases

Because most of their victims are black.

[etherealtruth]

43. Yes ... I have never disagreed with that

The race of the shooter is irrelevant ... it is the race of the victim that is the determining factor.

[hack89]

46. SYG favors the shooter regardless of race

There is no significant difference between the races when it come to conviction. There are not enough interracial SYG to make it a racial issue.

[sulphurdunn]

97. That is irrelevant

to the argument, which I believe was that black SYG perps are more likely to be convicted of killing a white person than a white SYG perp is of killing a black person.

[hack89]

98. In Florida there was a difference of two convictions over six years

Two more blacks were convicted than whites when involved in interracial SYG cases - and there are seven pending cases yet to be resolved.

The sample size is too small, the difference in convictions is too small and there are too many pending cases to make a definitive statement. My only point.

[sulphurdunn]

99. How many cases in all?

[hack89]

100. 21 in six years - 4 convictions, ten justified and 7 pending nt

[sulphurdunn]

102. If there were 4 convictions,

how could 2 more blacks than whites be convicted, unless there were only 2 convictions and both were blacks? I must be missing something.

[hack89]

103. Three is two more than one, correct?

I was talking about the difference in the number of convictions - which is two.

Sorry for the confusion. My point still stands.

[Scuba]

19. "... black shooters had a slightly higher acquital rate."

Can you please provide a citation for that? I'm seeing numbers reported that contradict your statement.

[hack89]

25. Go to the link in post 17

It has every Florida SYG case broken down in a multitude of ways.

[Scuba]

29. Nothing at the link supports your statement.

[hack89]

30. You have to do some math

It has SYG cases broken done by every possible racial combination. When you layout everything you will see that white shooters have slightly higher conviction rate.

The real lesson is that SYG favors the shooter regardless of race.

[Scuba]

36. Nothing at the link supports your statement. There's no data to which one can apply math ...

... that supports your statement.

[hack89]

38. There is a link to a searchable data base on that page.

It has every SYG case in FL broken down by race and gender.

[Scuba]

47. If there's a link to a searchable data base, it's well hidden. The onus is on you to back up ....

... your claim.

Meanwhile, in Post #31 there is a link which contradicts your data.

[hack89]

49. You can't navigate a web page and it's my problem?

There are not that many hyper links on that page - perhaps you should click on them?

[Scuba]

50. There are many hyperlinks on the page. Furthermore, it's not my responsibility to seek ...

... out the data that supports your claim.

[hack89]

51. Got it. Nt

[etherealtruth]

37. I think the other poster is correct regarding a bias toward the shooter (in general)

Where I see indications of cultural racism is related to the race of the victim ... it appears SYG may "work" for the shooter (with little regard to race) if the VICTIM is black (which, in my mind, illustrates deeply ingrained racism)


http://dreamdefenders.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/SYG_Shadow_Report_ICCPR.pdf

[NM_Birder]

74. Unless you Run and get a gun, then run back to the fight.

kinda makes SYG a little out of reach.

[magical thyme]

64. so Michael Giles was committing a crime by standing calmly to the side per state's witnesses...

Got it.

"The state’s own witnesses also testified that the aggressor instigated several other fights that night, and was acting erratically and violently. His attacker’s own friend testified she was worried the aggressor would kill or seriously injure someone. In comparison, state witnesses testified that Michael, was calmly standing to the side, and did nothing to provoke the attack.

http://www.blackyouthproject.com/2013/09/michael-giles-denied-stand-your-ground-defense-mom-starts-petition/

[hack89]

65. He left the scene, went to his car to get a gun, and then returned to the scene.

that is what got him in legal trouble.

The judge thought the sentence was too harsh. The police wanted probation.

I think mandatory sentences are an abomination.

[magical thyme]

67. he had a legal right to go get his gun. he got 25 years because he didn't kill his attacker.

It is that simple.

He shot him in the leg as a warning shot, so despite that fact the fact that he feared for his life, and his attacker admitted he punched him without provocation because he was angry and decided to punch the next person he saw, and his attacker's girlfriend said she was afraid he would injure or kill somebody that night, he was denied SYG.

If he'd shot to kill, he would have been given SYG. Once he was denied SYG because he didn't prove he feared for his life by killing his attacker, he fell into Florida's 10-20-life rule.

And if the judge thought it was too harsh a sentence, why did he give him 25 instead of the minimum 20?

http://amsterdamnews.com/news/2014/jan/09/push-michael-giles-freedom-begins/

[X_Digger]

70. You don't use deadly force as a 'warning'.

That demonstrates that you think there is a chance in persuading an attacker to not harm you, hence you are not in imminent danger of death or grave bodily harm.

If you're not in imminent danger, you don't use deadly force.

[magical thyme]

76. he didn't use deadly force, which is my point. They didn't believe he feared for his life.

Had he used deadly force, his attacker would be dead and he would be free.

Because he shot him in the leg, they didn't believe he feared for his life.

[X_Digger]

77. Firing a gun in these circumstances IS deadly force. Period. Full stop. n/t

[magical thyme]

79. says who? nt

[X_Digger]

80. Says the law, for the last 50 years at least. n/t

[magical thyme]

82. thank you for the link. oh wait...never mind. nt

[X_Digger]

84. Here's the Florida statute, from 1974

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776.html

776.06 Deadly force.—
(1) The term “deadly force” means force that is likely to cause death or great bodily harm and includes, but is not limited to:
(a) The firing of a firearm in the direction of the person to be arrested, even though no intent exists to kill or inflict great bodily harm; and
(b) The firing of a firearm at a vehicle in which the person to be arrested is riding.

Clear enough now? Force that is likely to cause death or great bodily harm. Like shooting someone in the leg.

[magical thyme]

85. and yet deadly force is permitted in SYG/self-defense.

And it was denial of SYG/self-defense that caused him to get 25 years.

[X_Digger]

86. And now we've come full circle. Deadly force is justified when there is imminent death or

great bodily harm.

Firing a warning shot demonstrates that there is no such imminence.

It is using deadly force without imminent death or great bodily harm.

[AtheistCrusader]

92. Because he used deadly force where none was warranted.

And he admitted so to the police.

Same thing that caught Marissa Alexander.

You DO NOT fire a gun in a confrontation, unless your intent is to kill, because deadly force is warranted by the threat you are responding to.


Too many people have been killed by 'warning shots' for the law to allow otherwise.

[AtheistCrusader]

91. The laws of every single state in the union.

[AtheistCrusader]

90. Shooting someone in the leg IS DEADLY FORCE.

Good fuckin' grief

[hack89]

71. I agree that mandatory sentences are an abomination

I do not feel he should be in jail.

[NM_Birder]

73. Where is that legal RIGHT, to go get your gun and then run BACK

into a fight ?

Stand your ground is out the window. Intent to inflict bodily harm, attempted murder, assault and battery with a deadly weapon..yes

[magical thyme]

75. he didn't run -- or walk -- into a fight. Government witnesses testified he was not involved in the

fight. He was standing calmly off to the side looking for his friends.

[NM_Birder]

87. News article says he went to his car and retreived a gun, then went back.

The account that he went to his car, retrieved a gun, then went back to the fight is common in all stories.

Did the "government" witnesses say he had the gun before the fight started ? That is pretty important to a SYG defense.

[hfojvt]

52. so did I

He was attacked, but before he was attacked, he left a melee, went to his car and got a gun, and then returned to the melee. After he was knocked down, he shot INTO A CROWD and hit three people.

If this guy was white, we would call HIM a vigilante who went to his car to get a gun and then went back to a melee LOOKING for trouble.

Not saying he should get 25 years, but the way the poster tells it is a long way from honest. Like he was just standing there minding his own business and then was attacked by three people.

[NM_Birder]

72. you catch the part

where Giles ran to his car, retrieved a gun, then ran back to the fight ?

makes a difference, hard to prove you are standing your ground when you run and arm yourself then run BACK into the fight.

[etherealtruth]

105. No, I was tired last night and didn't research it thoroughly

I do NOT believe in SYG to begin with.

sadly, this young man lost my sympathy ... his actions were not merely "stupid" they were reckless and premeditated.

[hack89]

6. High Mandatory minimum sentences for gun crimes are a bad idea

25 years was excessive.

[X_Digger]

10. As is leaving a fight, getting your gun, wading back into it..

.. then firing into a crowd.

[magical thyme]

68. he didn't "wade back into" the fight.

he had never been in the fight to begin with. The government's own witnesses testified he was standing calmly to the side.

And he didn't fire into the crowd. He fired at the attacker who punched him, and who admitted he punched without.

But yeah, he should have just waited for his friends at his car.

[libodem]

18. Injustices

Throw me into a frenzy. I almost can't control the inner rage that embroils me. I could easily roll around my floor and pull out my hair and knock.my head on the wall. It makes me furious. WTF?

THIS IS SO MADDENING.

[shedevil69taz]

56. Especially when you try to figure out why

someone would leave an altercation...go to their vehicle and get their gun...and then go back to the altercation...which is exactly what the young man in the lower part of the picture did...now try to figure out why someone would try to use this case as an example of why SYG laws are bad?

[libodem]

57. I see what you mean

He must have premeditated the incident and his judgement was clearly impaired but the sentencing discrepancy is stark. One is murder one isn't.

I believe the prejudices are based on the color of the young man's skin and that is not justice.

[AtheistCrusader]

89. He also intentionally shot the man in the leg.

Meaning, he used deadly force, while admitting to the police that he didn't intend to kill the guy. That's a sentence amplifier right there.

He also injured two other people in the process of shooting that guy in the leg.


This was not a 'clean' use of deadly force in self defense. Anything but.
The only injustice is that Zimmerman walked free. Though, 25 years does seem a little stiff given the intent and the outcome of the Giles case.

[PumpkinAle]

35. I can't put what I want to put

but what the hell is wrong with these people in Florida - grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

[Logical]

39. Giles shot someone who only punched him. That is not worth shooting someone.....

but 25 years is stupid.

[DirtyDawg]

40. Watched...

...a discussion on Chris Hayes show this evening where they talked at length about how young black men get shafted by the Florida 'justice' system. Everybody knows it but nothing will be done about it until somebody gets the 'right people's' attention...and the way to get their attention is to call on all young, black, athletes to refuse to accept scholarships to any Florida University until the 'stand your ground' law is overturned and the whole sorry mess is cleaned out. I say this cause the man talking about the situation in Florida was saying that young black men couldn't get justice there...when he should have added 'unless, of course, you win a Heisman then what you get still might not be justice, but it ain't jail or dead'.

[Vattel]

44. Your bias is a huge difference

[Boom Sound 416]

54. Was it Fletch?

"You see, you can't run the ad and not run the story"

[onehandle]

66. Gun Culturist's Rights > Normal People's Rights. nt

[NM_Birder]

69. he went and retrieved a gun from his car, went BACK to the fight.

Regardless of Zimmerman getting away with unjustifiably killing Trayvon, you can thank the half assed prosecution for that.

When Michael Giles ran to his car, retrieved a gun, then WENT BACK to the confrontation........ stand you ground no longer applied.

nothing like the rest of the story to ruin perfectly good outrage.

[AtheistCrusader]

88. Giles is like the Marissa Alexander case.

You cannot use deadly force in a 'threatening' manner. Firing a warning shot, is prima facie evidence you are not in fear for your life, because you turned the weapon away from the threat and fired, intentionally. Shooting someone in the legs, is also prima facie evidence you were not in fear for your life, and therefore not justified in using deadly force.

These two incidents have nothing to do with SYG.


If Marissa Alexander had put three rounds in her husband's chest, she'd be free today, fully justified in the use of deadly force in self defense. The law views a warning shot as a use of deadly force as well, but one that is not justified.

The law discourages warning shots and the like, because they are highly hazardous to other people. Giles didn't just shoot the one guy in the leg. He injured two more people. And shooting someone in the leg is still viewed by the court as a use of deadly force. (And it CAN BE deadly, given the femoral artery, and the amount of blood stored in your femur)


If you are justified in shooting someone in the leg, you are also justified in shooting them in the chest.
If you shoot someone in the leg because you are unwilling to use deadly force, you are STILL using deadly force, and the law puts you on very hazardous ground, because your intent to 'stop' the person, without killing them, makes that use of deadly force unjustifiable on its face.


Seems unfair, I agree. I think his intentions were pure, but unless you want people running around firing warning shots, and shooting people in the leg without consequence, I don't recommend changing the law.

[JoeyT]

93. Which is doubly fucked up,

because cases like Michael Giles are who SYG was allegedly put into place to protect. (And that's a big allegedly.)

[NM_Birder]

116. he went to his car, got his gun, went back to the fight.

that is NOT what SYG is about.
sometimes there is more to the story than a clever picture.

read the story, he is where he should be.