Muslim Woman Discovers Friendly New World When a Winter Scarf Covers Her Hijab

[JI7]

thought this was interesting. also keep in mind this is chicago which would be one one of the more diverse and liberal places in the country.


<A south suburban Chicago woman who hid her hijab beneath a fluffy knit hat and scarf found an entirely different world around her when others couldn't see the traditional Muslim garb.

"I didn't understand what was happening at first. People started talking to me more. Women would speak to me like I knew them since forever. Men looked at me like I was actually approachable," Leena Suleiman wrote of her experience on her blog, Facetruth. "And I was made to feel like I was actually from this planet."

"I became even more confident walking in my city. My city. All the stares were not racially related anymore. I was addressed as 'lady' and 'little lady,' something I had never heard before. Men would hold doors for me. Women would crack jokes with me. I became respectable, lovable, and accepted."

But with the hijab hidden, Suleiman also learned the familiar place she inhabited comfortably for so many years, the world of American Muslims, no longer was warm and friendly.

"The Muslim taxi drivers who would almost always say "Assalamu Alaikum," ask me where I'm from or if I'm single, or not allow me to pay for the fare became cold and dry. I would simply give the address, and the only dialog thereafter was at time of payment. It was puzzling," she wrote.

"I immediately began to despise the inequality, and it dawned on me that I acted like someone who was bullied for years, and finally was accepted by the mean girls ...">

http://oaklawn.patch.com/groups/around-town/p/muslim-woman-discovers-friendly-new-world-when-a-knit-scarf-covers-her-hijab

[IdaBriggs]

1. This is an interesting story.

Covering (aka wearing hijab) is a public announcement of one's faith, and in my experience, Muslim men are extremely respectful to women who cover even more than women who do not - I think it may have to do with acknowledging their courage in being "outside the norm" in deference to their faith. Finding the commonality between ourselves builds relationships; when I share that I fast during Ramadan despite not being Muslim there is an instant moment of rapport built around that shared experience. Physical appearances are not who we are, although obviously the world uses them as cues for appropriate behavior. It is too early for the metaphysical turn my mind is taking! Lol!

Kick and rec. Thank you for posting.

[CSStrowbridge]

2. One the one hand...

One the one hand, you really shouldn't treat people differently because of their religion.

On the other hand, hijabs and other overt symbols of religious affiliation tell people you think you are different. One of the reasons to wear them is to setup a tribe mentality. Those who do the same are part of the same tribe, those who don't are not part of the same tribe. You can't wear something that tells other people you don't think they are part of your tribe and expect others to treat you like you are part of their tribe.

[anasv]

4. tribes

I think there's a natural inclination to feel friendlier to people in your tribe. How would any of us react to someone wearing a (a) Dean for America sweatshirt or a(2) Down with Libtards sweatshirt.

Of course, there's bigotry, but that's not always what's in play.

I was astonished how differently people treated me once I let my hair go gray. People helped me with packages, held doors open, etc.

[Adrahil]

13. Why not?

Why SHOULDN'T I treat someone differently because of their religion?

I being a bit facetious, but with a nugget. People like Ken Ham, who preach that the earth is 6000 years old do not deserve my respect. He's lying for Jesus.

And I admit that when I see a woman in a hijab, I admit that I consider this a sign of submission to patriarchal religious tradition. I pretty much think of them the way I think of the evangelical women who wear the skirts to the ground, the high-necked long sleeved blouses and hair bonnet. Oh yeah, and they walk behind their husbands. Fuck that. I don't respect it, and I won't pretend that I do.

They have the right to do it. They have a right to demand tolerance. They do NOT have the right to insist on upon my respect.

[M0rpheus]

15. Wow.

I am neither a Muslim, nor a woman but, I know many. No one has the right to INSIST on your respect and, you do have the right to withhold respect from whoever you choose but, the fact that you choose to withhold your respect from people you have taken no effort to know is kinda sad. I could understand, if their choice affected you in any material way but, I don't really think it does.

The thing that the article did well, is note the effect that your (not you specifically... of course) disdain has on her. If one piece of cloth tells you everything you need to know about someone, you might want to examine why that is.

Just because you don't understand or approve of their choices does not mean they're not worthy of your respect, even if it's just as another human being.

[riderinthestorm]

16. Uhm, did you read the part in her blog where she got the reverse treatment from fellow Muslims

who were now suddenly chilly to her because she no longer appeared to be one of "them"?

The author's point was that its on BOTH sides.



I think its great to aspire to be inclusive but its impossible to ignore human nature which has a tendency to group into "tribes" like Muslim, or secular Humanist, or Mensa member, or a U of W Badger alumni, or (insert your own tribe here).

The author of the blog never was discriminated against - she was simply "chatted up" more by non-Muslims, and conversely she was given the cold shoulder by Muslims. I'm not sure that isn't just the way people are generally designed emotionally.

[M0rpheus]

17. I read the entire thing and my point to the previous poster still stands.

I was specifically commenting on this:

They have the right to do it. They have a right to demand tolerance. They do NOT have the right to insist on upon my respect.

My point was, just because the author chooses to wear/not wear her Hijab does not make her more or less worthy of respect/common decency.

On your comment:

I think its great to aspire to be inclusive but its impossible to ignore human nature which has a tendency to group into "tribes" like Muslim, or secular Humanist, or Mensa member, or a U of W Badger alumni, or (insert your own tribe here).

The author of the blog never was discriminated against - she was simply "chatted up" more by non-Muslims, and conversely she was given the cold shoulder by Muslims. I'm not sure that isn't just the way people are generally designed emotionally.

She did not mention discrimination directly, but she inferred it here:

I immediately began to despise the inequality, and it dawned on me that I acted like someone who was bullied for years, and finally was accepted by the mean girls ...

This sentence is very telling for those that have experienced it in one way or another.

Human nature isn't impossible to ignore. It's difficult, but people manage to do it every day in one way or another.

[Adrahil]

25. I will agree that she is due common decency...

But I still maintain that respect has to be earned. It is not something someone is due.

[M0rpheus]

27. But due to her choice of religion, you'd pass up the possibility that she's worth your respect? nt

[dlwickham]

31. yes

I certainly don't respect republicans because of their choice of politics and there's no reason why I should respect Muslims or a lot of Christians for that matter

[M0rpheus]

48. Knowing nothing past what they choose to wear and by extension their religion?

People are more than their religion/and or politics.

[dlwickham]

53. religion and politics are probably the single most defining characterists of a person

even more than race or sex

religious and political beliefs are something that one chooses; a person choosing to believe in a conservative religion says that they are also conservative

being a republican today says to most that that person does not believe in economic equality; basic civil rights for gays and lesbians; against a woman's right to choose; etc.

that person does not deserve respect in my book

[M0rpheus]

60. Religion, as a poster mentioned somewhere in this thread, is more often something you grow up with.

I personally have no religion but, if you pressed me on it I was a Catholic until I decided I wasn't, due to what I saw as hypocrisy. My Grandmother though, was a Catholic from day one, to her last. She could still recite mass in Latin on demand and, she was as liberal as any of you on this site. The 2 things don't necessarily go together.

religious and political beliefs are something that one chooses; a person choosing to believe in a conservative religion says that they are also conservative

The world is far from the black and white place you make it out to be. Sincerely held beliefs in a conservative religion don't stop people in those religions from being compassionate, tolerant and deserving of basic human respect. Have you ever considered that being shunned by people like you might give people more reason to go with what they know?

I don't understand liberals who pass up chances to build bridges to other people.

[dlwickham]

78. religion is a choice

[Adrahil]

37. I wouldn't go that far, but...

I do admit she'd have a harder pull. Why not? I have a harder time respecting Republicans. It's not that I can;t respect them, but they start in a hole, if you get my point.

[M0rpheus]

47. I must be living the wrong life.

One of my oldest friends is a BLACK, TEA-PARTY member. His politics get no respect from me but, he has earned my respect regularly for the last 40 years. The two things are not mutually exclusive. My life would be poorer for not having known him.

[Adrahil]

49. I do have friends that I respect

Now despite starting in a hole with me. I have not said it's impossible for such people to earn my respect.

[JI7]

33. don't you usually respect people unless they give you reason not to ? it's not possible

for everyone to know whether every person they come across is worthy of respect .

[Adrahil]

39. Perhaps you consider the term differently than I do.

To me, respect is something that must be earned. That doesn't mean I don't treat people with dignity or decency.

But for me, respect, like trust, must be earned. Respect, to me, entails more than mere common regard.

[riderinthestorm]

65. Nobody automatically gets respect from me. That's weird. I'm courteous and open

when I meet people and reserve judgement but nobody gets instant "respect". Common decency of course until I know them better. But instant "respect"? No

Demanding that someone earns instant respect because they're a part of the human race isnt in my DNA. That doesn't make me and others who also think like me suspicious or racist or bigoted.

It just means we're warier and more cynical than others. Probably older too.

As for your desire to see bigotry in her blog, I'd point to the fact that she was also given the cold shoulder by her community who couldn't identify her as part of their tribe. That she chose to gloss over that is understandable but doesn't make her inference that she was now "accepted" in the secular world some kind of indicator of discrimination.

Its more a comment on how we perceive and treat those who are part of our "family" vs those who are not.

[M0rpheus]

67. No one said that instant respect was expected, much less demanded. Did you see me say that?

As a matter of fact, nothing was mentioned about respect at all in the OP, much less the demand for it. That's what started this with me. Go back and check that if you like.

It just means we're warier and more cynical than others. Probably older too.

I'm a Black man, Father and Grandfather I know what it is to be wary. I don't give away anything easily but, I will talk to anyone who is willing to have a conversation. If I find that we have something in common we'll go from there. I give respect when I get it. If if my choice of religion disqualifies me from your respect, I don't want it.

As for your desire to see bigotry in her blog, I'd point to the fact that she was also given the cold shoulder by her community who couldn't identify her as part of their tribe. That she chose to gloss over that is understandable but doesn't make her inference that she was now "accepted" in the secular world some kind of indicator of discrimination

She didn't gloss over it at all. She was quite clear that it was different from both sides.
I have no desire to see discrimination at all. As a matter of fact, I'd rather unsee every bit that has gone on throughout my own life as if it doesn't exist but, I can't. I've struggled to keep my interactions here directed more towards decency rather than bigotry so as not to derail, but it's not something I imagined. You are free to disagree.

As to the other end of that from the Muslim men... Islam is a religion that encompasses people (a billion of them) of all colors from all over the world, if there is no outward display of said religion, how would they know? The author didn't mention whether these were the same drivers she's ridden with previously, so I have no clue. They could have been upset that she wasn't wearing her Hijab, or they may not have even recognized her and assumed that they had nothing in common, I don't know. having been a cab driver in Chicago, if you don't seem to have anything in common with your fare, it's all business. That could be it too.

[riderinthestorm]

70. You say it right in post #15 that instant respect should be expected because she's a human being

"Just because you don't understand or approve of their choices does not mean they're not worthy of your respect, even if it's just as another human being. "



I'm just not wired that way. It doesn't make me bigoted or racist (I'm biracial by the way).

I'm courteous, give and expect common decency. But "instant respect", just because they're a human being?

Nope.

Furthermore, just because someone is religious doesn't automatically confer respect, even as you ALSO say that NOT automatically respecting you for whatever religion you wear makes me some kind of lesser being. ("If my choice of religion disqualifies me from your respect, I don't want it.&quot Scientology, Olympianism, Norse gods, Mayan sacrifice... to Catholicism, Islam, Hinduism, Wiccan... why is it that we must confer respect for one over another? Or confer respect to any of them automatically? So because of your religion, and my lack of respect thereof, you actually have rejected me first, even as my "lack of respect" for YOUR religion is actually a lack of respect for religion in todo.

See how that works? Round and round we go. Whose disrespectful first?

You seem to be dissing Adrahil just because he doesn't automatically respect a Muslimah or anyone else right away. Maybe I'm reading your words wrong but they seem pretty straightforward to me.

For me, its simple. Everybody gets common decency. Some get respect, after they've earned it.

[M0rpheus]

72. Being worthy of respect and expecting/demanding "instant respect" are 2 different things.

The 2 posters I was engaging with earlier both said something to the effect of: they may earn my respect, but they start at a deficit, like republicans (This is my paraphrase of the combination of the 2 posters). My whole point can be boiled down to this: If a person's choice of religion makes a difference in how you view them on sight, why should that person bother to even try earn your respect? Unless you meet at, Church, Mosque, Ideal Org, Temple or some other place of worship it shouldn't make that much of a difference.

As far as Adrahil, I wasn't dissing him at all. I was having a conversation in a fairly respectful manner. If he feels disrespected, he's welcome to say so. I'm pretty sure we both survived intact, I even waved and stuff.

We can agree to agree on common decency and, agree to disagree on this "instant respect" I'm allegedly pushing. I'm sure I could always be more clear.

At any rate we both managed to survive this round and I'll wave to you too!

[JI7]

29. i would be interested to know if the muslims knew she was muslim when she was covered

covered in the winter knit cap.

some things are understandable like not giving that muslim greeting to someone unless you know they are muslim.

sometimes people also avoid doing things because they think they might be disrespectful . i think this could be the case with the girls who felt more like they could joke around with her . or even the guys who felt like they could approach her more when they didn't see the muslim covering.

people have stereotypes of people and it's not always meant to be in a negative way. like a guy might just think muslims are more conservative and it would not be right for him to approach a female based on his stereotypical views of them.

[Adrahil]

23. I'm sorry, I don't agree.

Look, I wouldn't go out of my way to be rude or anything, and I understand the pressure of cultural norms (even very narrow ones). But when people make certain decisions, I can't respect that. I don't respect white supremacists. I don't tea-partiers. I don't respect creationists (at least not those than evangelize for creationism). That doesn't mean they can't do things I respect. But some positions I consider so fundamentally out of synch with my views, and what I consider "reasonable" that someone who adopts those views loses my respect.

It's not that one piece of cloth tells me "all I need to know." Such a person might earn my respect, I suppose, but I do admit their decision to submit themselves in such a way is problematic for me. But it's their life, they can choose to do what they wish, I suppose.

[M0rpheus]

38. Have you ever had a conversation with a Muslim woman about their faith?

You're separating yourself from people who are essentially doing the same things that you are, trying to live their lives the best they can. They can't win on either side. Either, they're terrorists or, they collaborate with a paternalistic society that they didn't create. Either way, they're shunned for their religion, the one they're living in and not foisting on you.

There's plenty of history, nuance, creativity and rebellion there. But... You'll never get to know one because of what that wrap means to YOU. It may well end up that you'll come away feeling exactly as you do now, but at least then you'll be informed.

But, it's your life and you can choose to do what you wish as well, I suppose. Not that you'd need my permission or, acceptance to do so.

[Adrahil]

40. Yes I have.

I don;t disagree with what you say, but there are consequences to everything we decide. I don;t actively dislike them or anything.

[Blue_In_AK]

45. People don't necessarily "decide" to be Muslim

or Christian either, for that matter. It's the family we're born into, the culture we're raised in, etc. I was raised in the Quaker/Church of the Brethren tradition, and even though I haven't attended church in quite some time and consider myself agnostic at this point, I still subscribe to the pacifist ideals that I was raised with. My son-in-law is Muslim. He didn't make a conscious choice, it's just the family he was raised in. Like me, he's thoroughly secular now, but he still won't eat pork. I think that may be the ONLY tenet of Islam that he's held onto, but it just feels wrong to him to eat it.

[Adrahil]

46. Just to be clear...

My position has nothing specifically do with Muslims.

[Blue_In_AK]

55. No, I understand that.

I was just trying to make the point that one's religious beliefs aren't necessarily consciously chosen but are more instilled into us at a young age, and that even if we are able to break free as we age, some remnants of that upbringing may remain.

[Adrahil]

57. Concur NT

[snooper2]

79. I believe that is called being brainwashed

[Blue_In_AK]

80. And we all are , to one degree or another.

That's called "child rearing." Very hard to avoid.

[MellowDem]

82. No...

There is nothing about raising a child that requires you to indoctrinate them. There is a difference between education and indoctrination. The vast majority of religious people are so through childhood indoctrination. It's an immoral practice that is still barely recognized for what it is, but becoming less do.

[Blue_In_AK]

84. Well, we probably have differing opinions as to the meaning of "indoctrinate"

I think to a certain extent indoctrination is unavoidable, as in we are all products of our culture and generally accepted standards of child-raising within the culture. Parents can't help but have influence. We have mores and standards. If you were raised in India by Indian parents, you'd have a different world view than someone raised in the US by American parents.

And, of course, there are degrees.

[MellowDem]

85. Indoctrinate means telling someone an opinion is truth...

and brooking no opposition to that opinion. Religion does that quite a lot. And to people without the cognitive functions to see through it. It's how they keep their membership up.

Raising a child by expressing your preferences and opinions to them about values, but not saying these are unquestioned truths, is not indoctrination. Encouraging them to question and answering their questions makes it more like education.

No doubt that we are influenced by the society we are raised in, but indoctrination is a whole other level.

People taking their children to the a Creation Museum is one obvious form, but most church's creeds are nothing but dogmatic calls to indoctrination as well, and they start young.

[M0rpheus]

50. I never got the impression that you actively disliked them. Just to be clear.

there are consequences to everything we decide.

The thing that rubs me wrong about that is that you are penalizing someone for something that really has nothing to do with you.
But if that's how you do it, that's on you. I'll get off your case.

[pangaia]

51. "Them" hummmm

[Adrahil]

52. What pronoun do you suggest? NT

[JI7]

22. Malala Yousafzai wears a hijab and fully covered clothing

i'm guessing she is doing it because she wants to. after all she didn't let a bullet to the head stop her from doing some other things she wanted to do.

anyways, what i get from this is that people should be treated with respect. you can never really know someone just from outside appearance. in the case of ken ham you aren't judging him based on appearance . it's about his ideas.

and i know some muslim women who wear hijab sometimes and they wear short dresses other times and even bikinis at the beach.

[Adrahil]

24. You make a good point.

Malala Yousafzai is a remarkable young woman. But I still don't approve of her decision to follow that tradition. Though coming from the culture she comes from, I understand the social pressures to do as she does. I still consider a type of self-oppression.

I know I'm on a bit of an island here. My wife tells me I'm way too strident on this issue. I don't think so.

[JI7]

26. there is more pressure in her culture to stay in the background regardless of what she wears and not

speak out the way she does. so just maybe she is wearing what she wants to ?

[pangaia]

54. If I may say so..

Based on my experience with Islam and "Muslims," many, many Muslims, in the US and a number of other countries, I would say that you just may be .. lumping many different people with different practices, both inner and outer, together.

I do not consider myself a 'Muslim', but for a number of years, my teacher was a very highly regarded Turkish Sheik from Istanbul. I promise you in no way did his wife 'submit' to him. Far from it, as he would often remind us.

Maybe the topic is worth a further look, maybe not.

[Adrahil]

56. I appreciate the feedback... Thanks! NT

[Marr]

63. That's an interesting point. /nt

[yuiyoshida]

3. Wow...the comments are really something...

Why is it the right wing so love the word "Libtard". Wasn't that something Rush Limbaugh made up?People listening to him, use his words all the time, because frankly, they don't have any words of their own. I know I have also heard Ann Coulter use that phrase as well, as she is beyond the point of insulting people on the other side of the fence.

I mean come on, we all know it means "Liberal Retard" which shows you where their mind set is at. They truly are disgusting people in my book.

[CJCRANE]

7. I think they copied the idea from DU.

Many years ago, some DUers used to use the term "freeptards" to talk about RWers (adapted from "freeper" which means a poster at the Free Republic discussion site).

The term has fallen out of fashion here at DU for obvious reasons but some RWers still use the term that they reverse-engineered from it.

[yuiyoshida]

9. Oh well that makes sense...

Even coming up with something somewhat innovative is beyond their means, so they take what someone says over here, and reconstruct it. They have proven time and time again that they can not think for themselves. They need someone like Rush, or Sean or Ann Coulter to lead the way for them. If those people ever left the planet, there would be thousands of Right wingers walking around in circles trying to decide what to do.

[kcr]

19. Affixing "tard" to descriptive words and names as an insult isn't something DU invented

DUers and Freepers both did it because it's a common way to insult, especially on the internet

[CJCRANE]

21. That's the way I remember it..and Urban Dictionary seems to back me up on the timeline.

freeptard
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=freeptard
Posted April 29, 2005

libtard
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=libtard
Posted November 16, 2011

"Libtard" was documented a good six and half years later.

[kcr]

71. I didn't argue the timing

That doesn't mean DU invented it.

[CJCRANE]

76. It seems more likely that a DUer invented it

given that "freeper" means nothing to the general population.

Back before facebook and twitter very few people spent their time posting little messages on the internet. Free Republic and DU were the two main independent message boards catering to conservative and liberal sensibilities respectively and so became de facto rivals. Both message boards were almost completely unknown and unrecognized by the mainstream with only a few thousand people frequenting each board.

"Freeper" became the name for people who post at FR and a term of abuse over here and "DUmmie" become the standard derogatory term over there.

The rivalry between the two message boards used to be a big thing with frequent occasional threads about what the freepers were up to. But with the rise of the Tea Party the same kind of ignorance has gone mainstream so there's no longer much need to reference an obscure message board.

[JoeyT]

75. They're derived from

"fucktard" which I can remember hearing in the 90s. DU isn't to blame for the suffix, thank goodness.

[MADem]

5. The odd thing is, there's no "rule" that says one must wear the ostentatious scarf folded in such a

way that it bisects the forehead horizontally, like a nun's wimple. The "idea" is to modestly cover the hair and neck (and even that is subject to interpretation). You see the young girls in Iran adhering to the "spirit" of the law with other times of head coverings, and the now-ubiquitous "manteau" (it's really what Americans used to call a "car coat" back in the fifties and sixties) which is easier to wear than a chador that requires active use of one's hands to keep in position.

The wearing of the scarf, tied in that particular fashion, has as its sole purpose to segregate the wearer, to cause them to stand out, to make their display of piety ostentatious. There are more subtle ways to check that block without sticking out like a sore thumb.

Funny, the hijab has, in the last quarter century, taken on an almost political aspect--and much of the insistence upon its wearing is coming from the religious leadership (who aren't, in Islam, female).

In the seventies you could go from Beirut to Istanbul to Baghdad to Tehran and see very few chadors/chaderi/hijabs in your travels. Now, they're everywhere.

[pangaia]

58. Someone who know of what they speak.

Thanks.. I learned something...

[madokie]

6. I'm just happy that I'm not bound by religious beliefs

to think that someone needs saving or scorned or whatever because they think or believe differently than I do
I guess I'm just a lost soul

[Happyhippychick]

8. I have the same reaction.

Maybe I don't know what I'm missing but I'm not feeling deprived.

[madokie]

10. What gets me is the reaction

some people have when you tell them you're not a religious person. From disbelief to thinking they need to save you. Hell I was saved, as it is, when I was young. My dad became religious about the time I was born and turned over a new leaf, so to say. Started a church, gave the land for said church and built the church house even though he never claimed to be a preacher. So I was raised from early on in the Southern Baptist ways, back when it was spelled with a B actually, . Anyways by the time I was a teenager I had been baptized the whole nine yards. Then I started putting two and two together and before I realized it I realized I didn't really believe all that Bible stuff anymore. I say to people who are religious, hey if it floats your boat, get the oars out and enjoy it but leave me the hell alone.
If God made the universe then who made God?
Its a crock, religion is a way to control the masses is all it is if you ask me

[Happyhippychick]

11. I'm Jewish and very cultural

But I don't pray and I don't believe in god. I do love the food though! . It's amazing how many of my friends are identical I their belief system to me, we didn't influence each other it we all just kind of came to it.

[Adrahil]

12. I'm NOT Jewish, but who doesn't love latkes!!!!! NT

[Happyhippychick]

14. ^^^^^ that!

[pangaia]

59. Matso ball soup.. eeeiiiii.

When I was a kid 1-4 years old, in NYC, I had a big "Jewish" Nana next door. Her name was Rose Kahn.. I didn't even know what Jewish meant. Do I now?
She would baby sit me-- matso ball, pickled herring, gefilte fish..

[Warren DeMontague]

44. EVERYTHING needs to have a creator, silly! It's a rule.

Um, except the creator, who is exempt.


...I don't really get it either. Only thing I'd say is there are places in this country where secular people are closer to the norm, instead of the exception. I'm extremely happy to live in one of them.

[big_dog]

18. we've still got a long way to go in this country

sad that this is the case in chicago

[Warren DeMontague]

28. Thank God she's not wearing a bikini

because THAT would be cause for

[JI7]

30. why would she wear a bikini in freezing temps ?

and based on her experience people do have negative reaction to her when she wears the covering .

[Warren DeMontague]

32. People shouldn't have negative reactions to her for wearing her hajib, absolutely.

Just like people shouldn't have yowling meltdowns over women in bikinis.

[JI7]

34. there are some guys on here who act like they have never seen a women in bikini

or less in their lives.

[Warren DeMontague]

35. And there are some other people here

who act like seeing a picture of a bikini is equivalent to dropping an anvil on their toe.

[Egalitarian Thug]

36. Chicago, liberal. excuse me? I must be having a flashback or something. n/t

[JI7]

41. i'm saying compared to the entire country as a whole

[Egalitarian Thug]

42. It's very Democratic, but it ain't near liberal. Remember the warm welcome Dr. King got there?

Nothing has changed for the better since then.

[JI7]

43. but that's my point, in much of the country it would be even worse

[QC]

61. “I think the people from Mississippi ought to come to Chicago to learn how to hate.”

http://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/ward-room/How-Mayor-Daley-Outfoxed-Martin-Luther-King-113881699.html

[MellowDem]

62. An hijab is a symbol of misogyny and oppression...

It's also an outward sign of believing in a hateful, terrible god that thinks I will burn in hell.

Given that, it's no wonder it's hard to find community in a diverse environment when wearing it.

[M0rpheus]

64. Would it surprise you that Muslim feminists (yes they exist) disagree?

http://woodturtle.wordpress.com/islam-and-feminism/
http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/islamic-feminism
http://modernherstory.wordpress.com/2012/03/29/islam-feminism-and-womens-rights/

Or at least admit that they (Muslim women) may have a more informed opinion on it?

Fundamentalists ruin everything

[MellowDem]

68. No, it doesn't surprise me at all...

I have as informed opinion as they do. Honestly, I don't think there is such a thing as a Muslim feminist. If you subscribe to the belief of Islam, then you can't really be a feminist IMHO, given those beliefs are inherently misogynist, as written down quite plainly. Which makes "Muslim feminists" either liars or intellectually dishonest. It makes me think these Muslim feminists are uninformed if they haven't bothered to crack open the Koran.

The source of the hijab is one of misogyny, same with Islam itself, as well as the Abrahamic religions in general.

Nothing I said is fundamentalist. Fundamentalists ruin plenty. Apologists for intellectually dishonest positions which support fundamentalism ruins quite a lot as well. Which is exactly what "Muslim feminists" are doing.

Wearing such a symbol with heavy cultural baggage of oppression and misogyny and expecting total strangers to know that you're just wearing it as a form of identity is very presumptuous. Also, why choose such a terrible symbol? Kinda reminds me of the southerners I know who think the Confederate battle flag is heritage, not hate, and can't understand why people may view it with some timidity or hostility. Requires a lot of privilege. And religion has that in spades.

[Violet_Crumble]

73. According to that logic Christian women aren't feminists either...

Or is there some exemption for other Abrahamic religions in general?

[MellowDem]

81. They aren't either...

No exemption. Plenty of cognitive dissonance and intellectual dishonesty to go around though. No one seriously disputes the Abrahamic religions are inherently misogynist, and that's the least of it. Proclaiming you worship a hateful, angry god that commits genocide and will make people suffer for eternity for thought crimes is not going to win you a lot of friends, if people stop to think about it.

And more people are stopping to think about it. Someone can identify themselves as a Christian feminist, but it's a contradiction, and requires a lot of dissonance, or a totally intellectually dishonest redefining of words and ignorance of holy texts.

But, the OP was about Islam and the hijab.

[Sivafae]

66. It has been my experience that women who wearthese head coverings are

in a family with a strong paternal presence. I do not fear them, nor do I wish to exclude them. But it has been impressed upon me that when women are so dressed, it is better not to talk to them because it may cause trouble with the strong paternal presence in their home. I don't want to get them in trouble, so I don't say anything to them.

I don't think that the wearing of these items are a "stay-away" order, but I do think that many women, even in more liberal families are segregated not by their garments, but by strong paternal presences.

See, the same thing that differs sexual attraction from sexual objectification and women in and out of patriarchal societies is "Agency." A woman you are sexually attracted to has agency, whereas a women you objectify does not. A wife you keep does not have agency, whereas a person(woman) who marries you does.

And when a woman decides that she wear a head scarf according to tradition, there is the fact of whether or not they will be perceived as having agency. And many times they are not seen as having agency--thus my fear of talking to them, and in doing so, getting them in trouble.

[demigoddess]

69. could be people do not want to insult someone

from a group not fully understood. We have many women who wear hijabs around here but are usually not interacting with others, but a lady asked me a question once and I answered. Perhaps they need to open up a little bit while wearing the hijab.

[Violet_Crumble]

74. I dunno. I don't treat anyone differently coz of any head covering...

There's a few women where I work who wear hijabs. If they get into the lift with me, I say hi to them the same as I'd say hi to anyone else. I don't expect that perhaps they've got to act in a certain way to me to get me to respond to them, I just don't treat them differently because of what they're wearing...

[seveneyes]

77. Muslim laws and hijabs

To me, hijab and other clothing is just that...clothing. I see no reason to judge anyone for what they wear.

What's really disturbing is that in some Muslim cultures and countries, they bury women in a hole up to their neck, put on a hijab, and then stone them to death for no good reason. In fact, there is no good reason for any stoning. Yet they do it in the name of the "god" they worship.

Some people may relate hijabs to those barbaric practices of the religion associated with hijabs.

[Quantess]

83. Plus, considering that hair covering is not required of muslim women...

...there are many muslim women who dress in western clothing and show their hair. So yes, I also associate the extent of muslim garb with a corresponding progression of religious fundamentalism.