VW threatens to block any future expansion plans in the South, citing conservative interference

[kpete]

Reuters reports this morning that Volkswagen’s “top labor representative” has threatened to block any future expansion plans in the South, citing conservative interference in the United Auto Workers vote in Chattanooga.

Quoting an interview with a German newspaper, the news service reports Bernd Osterloh, head of VW’s works council, as saying he can imagine further expansion in the United States, but it probably won’t be in the South unless some sort of labor representation is established in the Chattanooga plant. Workers in Germany have representation on corporate boards, giving them a say in citing decisions.

Osterloh’s remarks seem to contradict statements by U.S. Sen. Bob Corker and others that Chattanooga would get another vehicle if workers rejected UAW representation. Osterloh describes such talk as conservative “interference.”

On the other hand, the debate may not be over. The Associated Press quotes Osterloh as saying he hasn’t given up on bringing labor representation to Chattanooga, citing the same interview.



http://blogs.tennessean.com/politics/2014/report-vw-labor-chief-says-uaw-vote-could-cost-south-future-cars/

[VanillaRhapsody]

1. this is called cutting one's nose despite their face!

[Scootaloo]

9. The saying is "To spite one's face" and how do you figure?

I presume you mean it's VW doing the cutting?

[VanillaRhapsody]

13. No the Southern folks that voted against....and the Republicans that convinced them to...

[Scootaloo]

15. Ahhh, gotcha, then

[kardonb]

82. nose

" to spite " their face . Despite means = because of .

[VanillaRhapsody]

130. No actually you are wrong about the definition...

de·spite
diˈspīt/Submit
preposition
1.
without being affected by; in spite of.
"he remains a great leader despite age and infirmity"
synonyms: in spite of, notwithstanding, regardless of, in the face of, for all, even with More
nounarchaicliterary
noun: despite
1.
outrage; injury.
"the despite done by him to the holy relics"
2.
contempt; disdain.
"the theater only earns my despite"

[whopis01]

222. However, the correct phrase is still "to spite one's face"

Not "despite one's face".

[VanillaRhapsody]

244. My family starting with my grandmother said "despite"

and it is actually a correct statement. It means the SAME thing...

[WinkyDink]

268. It most certainly does NOT mean the same thing. The expression is "to spite" because it means a

Pyrrhic victory: You got rid of an annoyance (nose), but the result majorly backfired (your entire face suffered).

To say "despite" would mean that, regardless of your facial characteristics, you are nevertheless going ahead and cutting off your nose.

Regardez-vous:

I'm posting this to spite you.

I'm posting this despite you.

[Egalitarian Thug]

188. FFS, If you insist on being the first one to remove all doubt, at least get the fucking cliche right

It is "...cut off their own nose to spite their face".

[badtoworse]

2. This is just sour grapes...

... And a great example of why I dislike unions. What happened to respecting the will of the majority? He would have screaming if the vote went the other way and VW took his position.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

4. you sound like someone who is ok with election results that are tampered with

why is that?

[badtoworse]

6. Where was tampering? VW management was very accomodating to the union.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

22. the main problem did not lie with Volkswagon management. It was outside political interests headed

by Bob Corker.

[eggplant]

67. Politicians are prohibited from providing threats or incentives in labor votes.

Corker should be dragged in front of a Judge, and the NLRB should invalidate the election and do it again.

[Plucketeer]

115. You've got to be kidding

Perhaps you've awoken from a long winters nap. VW WANTS a union - but it's the likes of Senator Corker and the state governor who were making threats and predicting gloom if the workers voted to unionize. That's called intimidation - "blackmail" in some circles!

[CTyankee]

319. Of course! VW has a good reason to want a unionwhere workers are paid a living wage...who else

buys their cars?

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

116. It came in the form of fear mongering from the state government.

[Iggo]

117. US Senator Bob Corker did the tampering.

You probably heard about it. It was in all the papers.

[A HERETIC I AM]

289. It wasn't just what Corker said though...

The fact is that anti-Union propaganda and therefore sentiment is a long term trend in the South.

Average, hard working men and women in many areas of the southern tier, and nationwide for that matter, have a negative view of Unions because of the anti-labor Union propaganda that has been promoted for decades.

Hell....centuries.

There was a vote to unionize the Mercedes Plant outside Tuscaloosa last year. The no vs. yes vote proportions were almost identical to the VW vote.

[Iggo]

290. And a less longterm though equally troubling trend here at DU.

[joeglow3]

16. Define tampering

A friend of mine was fresh out of college and was close to losing his apartment and being homeless. He could not afford to strike with everyone else at the telecommunication company he worked at. He parked his car, and walked to work. He was spit on and cursed at. After work, he came back to a car with four flat tires and smashed in windows. Do you consider this tampering?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

20. was he voting?

or strikebreaking and working as a scab?

[joeglow3]

26. He was paying his bills so he did not end up on the street

Others did not like that and felt they had a right to commit assault (cursing and threats), battery (spitting on him) and destruction of property (costing him to fix his car). It appears, based on your question and name-calling, that you support this kind of behavior. Don't you consider this tampering?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

27. I do not support that behavior in the least. but it is not vote tampering

which is the point under discussion.

[joeglow3]

29. Bullshit it is not vote tampering

If a bunch of Klansman stood out in front of a voting place in an african american neighborhood, you would be up in arms for tampering with the election. But, you quickly support these gestapo style tactics when it benefits you. Sorry, but I can't let that bullshit sit unchallenged.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

52. I think you are confusing walking past a strike to go work

and being intimidated as you go to vote

[joeglow3]

56. Define intimidated

What if he didn't want to join a union? So, if he supports a position that we oppose, we can spit on him, yell verbal threats and destroy his property. You don't consider THAT intimidation? Rationalization much?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

57. sounds like he already belonged to a union and wasn't willing to pay short term

for longer term union benefits deriving from strikes

[joeglow3]

59. You avoided the question

You don't consider that intimidation that influences an vote?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

61. no I don't.

[joeglow3]

63. So, then next question is how much do your morals cost?

Clearly, you think it is ethically okay to spit on people, verbally assault them and trash their property. What does it take for you to sell out your morals? A dollar an hour? Two? Five?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

66. snore. I said none of those things. you sound like most conservatives who try to

trap people into two dimensional syllogisms of their own making. Not going to work. You need to think more clearly about your arguments before presenting them.

[joeglow3]

71. Bullshit. Nice verbal gymnastics, though

I asked if you felt assaulting people and destroying their property because they don't vote for/support your cause is intimidation and you said no. If the other side did a fraction of that, you would be pissed. THAT is selling out your morals.

[A HERETIC I AM]

292. I'm not speaking for Pretzel Warrior, but no, destroying property etc. is not right.

BUT....there are very few tools available to the workers. One of them ABSOLUTELY MUST BE protection of the workplace from outside workers or those willing to cross the picket line (Scabs)

The thing with people who 'just don't want to join the union' is that they are getting the benefits of the club, so to speak yet are not members of the club, even though they have been invited.

The example of someone who needs to cross a picket line because he has bills to pay is an example of a shortsighted perspective. Is it the case that no one else on the picket line has bills?


Too many Americans just simply do not grasp the difference between working under a collective bargaining agreement or contract and working "at will".

What's funny is that most CEO's of major companies have contracts. Hell, it could be argued that politicians do too, as the methods to fire them are specifically laid out.

An at will employee can be fired for something as trivial as his hair is not clean.

[arely staircase]

192. yup nt

[whopis01]

223. That is a bizarre conclusion to come to

The other poster was saying that there was no vote taking place when the spitting and property damage intimidation occurred. And that is why it was not vote tampering.

No one was saying that it was ok. Or that it wasn't intimidation. Just that for it to be vote tampering it would have to involve a vote.

[joeglow3]

228. So, your claim is that this doesn't happen when it is up for a vote

I provided links somewhere else in this thread where people were killed for not supporting the unionization.

But somehow, advocating against violence and intimidation by both parties makes me an anti-union teabagger.

[whopis01]

250. Please don't lie about what I have or haven't said.

I never made the claim that such things don't happen when there is a union vote. Not did I ever intimate even in the slightest that you are and anti-union teabagger.

I am happy to engage in a discussion, but if you are just going to make false statements about claims I have made and then argue against those statements I never made - well, then it really isn't a discussion, is it?

[joeglow3]

258. Fair enough. I apologize

You did not call me that. My intention was not to say you did.

However, in this thread, I have advocated for a certain level of civility in union discussions. Some people on here actually have said you should expect to get the shit kicked out of you and have your property destroyed, so if you cross the picket line, it is morally okay to do that. This is some of the most fucked up logic I have ever seen and I am disgusted that people on DU actually believe that. And for that, these people (not you) have called me an anti-union teabagger.

The only other thing I have said is that I believe unions can create mediocrity in members if there is NO means to disporportionately reward top performers. Here is what I posted in another thread:

"Out of college, my wife worked as a union nurse. She work the night shift (7 to 7) in post partum and newborn nursery. She has always been a hard worker and busted her ass. When she had easier patients, she would help out the other nurses who had more difficult patients. When her shift was over, she would stick around later to help cover the shift change. Most other nurses did not help others out and skated out as soon as the clock hit 7. On one occasion, she was in the bathroom and noticed a security device sitting on the counter (they all had to wear them because they had babies). After spending ten minutes looking for the nurse, she found her sleeping in a room. She notified the head nurse and they lady was reprimanded. A month later, they noticed the Percocet counts were off. Eventually, they were able to trace it back to this nurse. She was given a two week suspension. When the end of the year came around, every single nurse got the exact same raise. She quickly learned why the vast majority of the veteran nurses didn't help out and were clock watchers. She has since left and joined a private OB/GYN practice, where she has thrived.

I am not saying I think unions are a bad thing. I am simply saying all too often (in our personal experiences) they fostered mediocrity. I think that needs to change. In a hospital of all places, I want all staff being motivated to offer the best care possible. This CAN be accomplished without striking the fear of firing into people."

Basically, I am frustrated with other people in this thread who not only refuse the willingness to discuss if there are ways to improve unions, they actually support violently assaulting people and claim I am a teabagger because I don't take my spot in line behind them.

[whopis01]

332. You and I have no argument about those points

I understand the harm someone crossing a picket line does to the workers striking. However, that is no way whatsoever gives anyone the right to cause physical harm to that person or to their property.

To be honest, I don't really have much personal experience regarding unions. I am in a right-to-work state, so they are not very prevalent. The only time I had a job where there was a union, it was voluntary to join. I did join and paid my dues. I wasn't particularly happy about the outcome of the bargaining agreements and other issues that came up - but I really don't know how much power the union actually had due to the right-to-work issue in the state.

Pro-violence is never a good position - and being unwilling to support that doesn't make you a teabagger or any other type of bad guy in my book.

[bettyellen]

293. if he was already in the union- then this is an example of something else, isn't it?

[joeglow3]

294. Semantics

Intimidation to form a union versus intimidation to maintain a union. But, I have a feeling you knew that.

[eggplant]

68. This is an absurbly false comparison, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you.

Tampering is explicitly NOT ALLOWED in unionization elections, by any side.

Your friend who was trying to go to work had terrible things done to him, and that sucks. But he wasn't in any way prevented from casting his secret vote. On the other hand, if he wasn't willing to respect that the union won and was striking, maybe he shouldn't be working at a union shop.

That doesn't excuse what happened to him. But your point has NOTHING to do with what the rest of us are talking about, no matter how crappy your friend was treated.

[joeglow3]

85. What do you say to those want to get rid of secret votes?

I am saying I support honest discussion and debates with no intimidation. Both sides can (and do) abuse their positions. I support unions. About the only thing I dislike about them is so many that remove the opportunity to excel beyond your peers and be rewarded for it.

[VanillaRhapsody]

165. I bet Joe doesn't know that EVEN if his friend voted AGAINST the Union....Union would STILL

support him in disputes!

[JDPriestly]

75. If he was strikebreaking, he was threatening the success of the strike.

The people on strike were probably no better off than your friend, but they sacrificed for the good of the people with whom they worked and for better wages and working conditions for al.

Of course, it is still wrong to destroy someone's property, but it was also wrong of your friend to break the strike.

I do not believe that union members would spit on someone, yell verbal threats or destroy the property of someone who simply voted against having a union. Isn't the vote secret?

http://www.iuoe.org/JoinIUOE/YourRightsFormingaUnion/tabid/88/Default.aspx

Am I wrong about that?

[joeglow3]

86. Like I asked above, what do you think about attempts to remove the secret vote?

That said, how do you avoid applying the same logic to management? How can they intimidate voters if it is secret?

[Fawke Em]

205. Why wouldn't the vote be secret?

When you vote in a political election, it's a secret unless you choose to tell.

Secret ballots ensure the workers a safe haven.

[joeglow3]

212. Um, because people want to be able to know how people vote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_check

The argument is if someone doesn't want to unionize, they can sign the card to avoid retaliation, but then vote their heart on a secret ballot. There has been a big push to remove the secret vote.

[bread_and_roses]

218. You are misrepresenting "card check" (Employee Free Choice Act)

But I am way too tired and bored with your obvious union bashing to explain it.

[joeglow3]

226. So, it DOESN'T remove the secret vote?

It doesn't, if 50% of cards are sign, automatically force a company to recognize a union without there being a secret vote. PLEASE point me to evidence that this is not exactly what the law did.

[WillyT]

87. THANK YOU !!!

He was lucky he just got spit on.

Back in the day he wouldn't be able to walk for a while.

[Lost_Count]

196. Try not to sound so excited...

It's a bad thing...

[packman]

45. I was on strike once

and it was a painful experience. No income, wife had to get a part-time job, borrowing money to live, credit card run-up.
No strike is sunshine and roses. I can remember the scabs climbing over a hill , going thru woods and entering via back doors. I can remember the anger I felt toward them. I can recall one ass-hole saying with a shit-eating grin that the union got him his raise and double time because he went in while we were walking the line.
Piss on your friend. He should have stayed out and been united with his co-workers. Paying bills is how they have the middle class by the balls. By going in he weakened both himself in the future and the workers . He was nothing more than a strike breaker and if he had bills to pay he should have quit and gotten another non-union job. Fuck him.
Tell me, did your friend refuse the raises or benefits accrued from that strike?

[joeglow3]

54. So, tampering is cool when our side does it?

Good to know. So long as you profit it, anything goes?

Sure sucks when the other side does it though, huh? Lets all just get on a message board and piss and moan about, while we hypocritically justify it for ourselves.

So how much money does it take for you to sell out your convictions and civility? A dollar an hour? Two?

[eggplant]

70. tampering with what, exactly?

[joeglow3]

88. Someone's health, property, mental well being, etc.

All because they may not support your view.

[Enthusiast]

231. Wow! You sure are passionate about this issue!

Really passionate. Really, really passionate about those damn unions.

[packman]

73. Usually 10 cents

and a pack of gum.

I do believe you have no understanding about the value of unions, what it means to belong to a union, the brotherhood of a union or the concept of sacrificing a bit of yourself for the common good of that brotherhood.

Your friend should not have crossed the line-plain and simple. He should have respected what the dynamics of the situation was , again screw him.

How much does it cost you to HOLD ON TO YOUR CONVICTIONS and Civility - a loss of a dollar an hour? Two? The loss of medical benefits? The loss of overtime? The loss of a safe work environment?

[joeglow3]

89. A few points to address

Does he not have a right to decide what is best for him? Even if you think/know he is wrong?

Regarding your last questions, those things are codified in our Federal laws (OSHA, Affordable Care Act, Labor Laws, etc). Sure, unions were the reason these laws came into affect. However, these things are not going to disappear if some people decide to not join a union.

Finally, you do realize those people picketing abortions doctors houses, offices, etc. also rationalize their behavior because someone did what they didn't like. The hypocrisy of people amazes me.

[socialist_n_TN]

97. Fuck him. He was a scab.........

There's nothing lower on the food chain than a scab. Too many who are willing to scab is the main reason that the ruling class has this country by the balls and is squeezing the very life out of the rest of us. Being willing to scab is being a lackey to your masters.

[joeglow3]

105. Don't come whining when some racist, gun nut, etc. says "fuck you"

Clearly, you have established an expectation on how we treat people who, no matter how rationally, disagree with you. Don't whine when some nut claims that same luxury regarding something they don't like about you.

[A HERETIC I AM]

297. What a totally ridiculous, non-sequiter response. n/t

[joeglow3]

298. That is the respose I expect from someone who justifies violence

"It is ridiculous that someone should be able to use violence to make their point about something they are passionate about. Only I can advocate violence to make a point about something I am passionate about."

[A HERETIC I AM]

299. Are you suggesting I am "someone who justifies violence"?

If you are, you're out of line, pal. I have only posted a few times in this thread and nowhere do I justify violence or property damage as a proper tactic.

You put a sentence in quotes. It is nothing I wrote, so again you are using a non-sequiter.

Look...the fact that a car got vandalized is not a good thing. I don't advocate violence or destruction of property in any way, shape or form. But the fact remains that ANYONE who crosses a picket line to do work at a company not being done by striking workers IS A SCAB, plain and simple.

The point you are failing to even recognize - one that has been made numerous times in various ways - is that when a strike occurs it is of paramount importance that the entire workforce be part of it. Most people understand this simple concept. To argue that it is OK for someone to cross a picket line demonstrates that you do not understand the first thing about what it means to be in a union.

The fact is, the laws, particularly in the right-to-work states, are on the side of the employer, NOT the employee.

I live in Florida, one of the least unionized states in the country. I worked for a trucking company of about 120 employees, 85 or so of whom were drivers. A collective bargaining agreement would DRASTICALLY help those drivers. If those drivers decided to vote for a union the owner would fire them en masse and lock them out, plain and simple. The only recourse would be to picket the front gate. A likely scenario then would be other drivers and replacement workers trying to cross that picket line and they would be blocked from doing so. If that happened the local police department would be called immediately and I guarantee you the picketers would be arrested and taken to jail, thus crushing the picket and making the lockout successful.

This is the reality of how things are in right-to-work states. The workers know they have little to no chance of being able to organize because the laws and law enforcement are on the side of the company.

If every company that might be or should be unionized honestly did things in the best interest of their workforce, then unions would not be needed. But the fact is, if corporations are people, they are psychopaths. They don't do things in the interest of their workers. They do things in the interest of the quarterly bottom line.

[B Calm]

107. +1

[arely staircase]

193. hear hear nt

[Kermitt Gribble]

282. +2 n/t

[Starry Messenger]

108. "our side", lol

[socialist_n_TN]

137. Yeah I noticed that too. A self admitted member of "management".....

Last edited Thu Feb 20, 2014, 09:38 AM - Edit history (1)

lecturing the working class about how to act in the class war. That's an fair and balanced view. Edited to add the for my last sentence. In case anybody had any doubts.

[joeglow3]

208. In title only

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4530566

[socialist_n_TN]

320. The most important thing is NOT "In title only", it is........

in attitude and belief. You identify with the owners.

I wonder if, on your deathbed in a fascist United States, if you'll wish you spent more time at work.

[joeglow3]

324. It is what I enjoy

Is the concept of loving what you do for a living so foreign to you?

[socialist_n_TN]

328. No actually that concept is not foreign to me.......

HOWEVER, work is not the end all and be all of my existence. And ESPECIALLY work that makes other people money off of MY labor. Some work to live, some live to work. I'm in the former category.

[joeglow3]

330. Then your work is not a passion

Think about what you look forward to doing AFTER work. THAT is how I feel about my work.

[socialist_n_TN]

334. Fine. And a socialist state wouldn't interfere with your "passion"......

but the vast majority of people do NOT "live to work", they "work to live". Their passions do NOT lie in working to make somebody else filthy rich. Capitalism forces everybody into a mode of "live to work", whether that work is a passion or not.

With 15 or 20 hours of work per week in a planned economy, the vast majority of people could take care of basic necessities. That extra 20 to 25 hours of labor in today's 40 hour week for most people goes into a few luxuries for the individual and a MASSIVE amount of surplus labor to load up the pocket of the already rich owners in society.

[NoGOPZone]

269. .

[tsuki]

204. Jesus, can you read, or are you locked into

the brilliance of your own argument? The poster said he felt anger, and so have most union members who have seen freeloading scabs cross the picket line and then be the first to belly up to the union bar for raises and representation in disputes.

Oh, he felt anger. How uncivil. Why can't he be more civil? Anger is uncivil?

Sounds like you are really angry with the unions. But, your anger is more civil than his? I don't think you need to be calling him a hypocrite.

[joeglow3]

211. You know the difference between a feeling and actions

I certainly did NOT say someone could not possess a certain emotion. Please me to where I said that. Rather, I said when you let that anger manifest into attacking people and destroying their property, then you have a problem. I never thought I would be called a teabagger because I opposed assaulting people.

[VanillaRhapsody]

162. THAT is called "working scab".......there is a reason for that....look it up...

the history of the Working Class in this country is a good place for you to start.


You so understand that UNIONS built the greatest Middle Class the world has EVER known?

As Union membership has declined....the American Working Class has stagnated!

[joeglow3]

166. So, the ends justify the means

Bet the anti-choice and ant-gay crowd would agree with that mentality.

[VanillaRhapsody]

167. No actually.....that is WHY you don't cross the picket line....

and even IF your friend voted not to pay Union dues....in a dispute the Union would still support him...

How is that for "unfair"

[joeglow3]

170. But if some one does, any tactics against them is justified?

[VanillaRhapsody]

171. Do you KNOW what workers faced BEFORE Unions?

three words...

Triangle Shirtwaist Factory....

THAT'S why....

I'd suggest you go to the library and check out a copy of the movie Norma Rae...

[joeglow3]

172. It is amazing how one can justify violence against people

But, it is for a cause you believe in, so it is justified. Now, NO ONE can be afforded that luxury because that is wrong.

[VanillaRhapsody]

173. YOU Definitely do NOT know what you are talking about.....educate yourself

go watch Norma Rae...read up on Triangle Shirtwaist factory....

and think of my grandparents picking cotton and tobacco from daylight to dark with 16 children...on a farm they would NEVER make enough to own because they STAYED in debt to the landowner.

You really need to know HOW the Middle Class was created in this country and how many DIED for your vacation days and weekends off!

[joeglow3]

174. So, who gets to decide when violence against people is acceptable?

[VanillaRhapsody]

175. Go watch the movies and you will see for yourself.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079638/

Highly recommend you watch that...just for starters!

Oh and there is this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-union_violence

[joeglow3]

176. Wow, I can link too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_violence

Again, it is amazing how people can justify violence. I am sure tiller's murderer felt justified too.

[VanillaRhapsody]

178. I see you and I raise you the Ludlow Massacre...

The Ludlow Massacre was an attack by the Colorado National Guard and Colorado Fuel & Iron Company camp guards on a tent colony of 1,200 striking coal miners and their families at Ludlow, Colorado, on April 20, 1914. Thirty-nine people, including women and eleven children, were killed; John D. Rockefeller Jr., the chief mine owner, was pilloried for what happened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre


Oh and do you know the history of the Pinkertons?

[joeglow3]

179. This dick measuring contest is over

You have made it clear you believe anyone can and should resort to physical violence against other human beings if they disagree with your views. It is sad, but we all knew these people exist. I am just shocked to find one on DU.

[VanillaRhapsody]

180. I don't have a dick.....sorry.

[Enthusiast]

232. That explains your "problem".

I kid.

[Union Scribe]

184. I don't agree with Vanilla about a lot

But screw you for equating union members and people who kill abortion providers.

[joeglow3]

207. And screw people who think violence against others is justified

[VanillaRhapsody]

243. and screw YOU for taking the benefits YOU'VE received regardless of your support....

directly FROM Unions....

[joeglow3]

253. More personal attacks

Clearly par for the course for you.

[socialist_n_TN]

321. People like the ruling class in capitalism, the owners?.....

They're ALWAYS the one who use violence against the workers FIRST, then whine about "class war" when workers fight back.

[joeglow3]

325. I think you are intentionally being obtuse

There are countless examples of union strikers assaulting "scabs." Or is that okay because Management gave the justification to do so?

[Jake Stern]

195. Wow

So the horrific deaths of Triangle Shirtwaist Factory workers justifies destroying someone's property? That's exactly what you just said.

[socialist_n_TN]

202. Some of us believe in self defense.........

And some of us extend self defense to our class. When you scab, you are attacking me by siding with the owners in their war against the working class. I will defend myself and my comrades.

[VanillaRhapsody]

241. No that is NOT what I just said is it?

[ReRe]

300. Tell him to just read one book too:

A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn. Norma Rae too. These are good places to start for anyone who is totally uninformed of the value of Labor Unions!

[sunnystarr]

267. You'd better believe it's justified

Before Unions protected workers hundreds of workers DIED each day from unsafe conditions. Hundreds died to form unions and thousands were beaten and injured. A roach is higher on the food chain than a scab. A scab betrays all union workers both past and present and undermines and spits on everything the unions fought for and which workers now take for granted. Your posts on here belong on the freeper site and insult the rest of us.

[joeglow3]

271. Wow. And I thought adovactating violence belonged on a freeper site.

Guess every bunch will have a few that are rotten.

[VanillaRhapsody]

301. Nobody is advocating it....but if he crossed that picket line...he is stepping on OTHERS

before him who got him weekends off, 40 hour work weeks, vacations...safety on the job...etc. and people DIED for him to enjoy those benefits..

THAT's why he is called a scab and deserved all the derision he received.

[arely staircase]

190. your friend is a scab and should be ashamed of himself nt

[joeglow3]

209. Does that excuse physical assault, battery and destruction of property?

[VanillaRhapsody]

246. He went in KNOWING he would face that....

he was scab!

[joeglow3]

254. WOW. That is like the scum who say a woman should expect to be raped based on their dress

It is AMAZING how you can support beating the shit out of people, or even killing them (as is the case in links I provided to you). It is shocking you cannot see the slippery slope you are creating. My 10 year old understands the consequences of that.

[DanTex]

25. That sounds like vandalism to me.

In this case, tampering refers to outside conservative groups and Republican politicians (e.g. Corker) pressuring the voters, in some cases with false promises or threats.

[joeglow3]

32. But it is not tampering when union supporters use threats?

We can employ these tactics, but we will bitch and complain when they do.

Good to know.

[DanTex]

35. Yes, it's tampering. Beyond tampering, I'd say.

Is anyone denying that?

[wryter2000]

40. Was there an election at the time of the incident?

If not, it wasn't vote tampering.

It was vandalism and assault, as you pointed out, and it was wrong. But it wasn't vote tampering.

[geardaddy]

278. +1

[JDPriestly]

65. If you like the 40-hour week and overtime pay, you should like unions.

Most Democrats like unions by the way, and this is Democratic Underground.

Don't want to offend, but unions are very, very, very, very popular among Democrats and for good reason. Before unions, workers were treated like so much throw-away junk.

It's thanks to the union movement that we work in decent conditions and that our children do not work long, sweatshop hours.

I strongly support the union movement.

Germany has a long tradition of strong unions, worker representation on the boards of directors with voting rights on certain matters. Interestingly the two European Union countries with the fewest strikes, incredibly few days of work lost to strikes and a tradition of harmonious, cooperative relationships between employers and employees are Germany and Austria. Those are also countries in which employees work very hard and are generally highly skilled.

I believe that strong unions make happy, skilled, serious workers. I think that the experience of Germany and the experience in the pre-Reagan years in the US support my belief. After all, the US was at its most prosperous and successful as the Depression declined until Reagan. And those years of prosperity and success were also the years in which unions were the strongest in the US.

Unions help improve life for everyone.

[socialist_n_TN]

99. Yep. And the REASON that those gains were won is because......

WORKERS DID NOT SCAB ON STRIKES! Solidarity was more than a word.

[JDPriestly]

227. Yes. Workers who scab on strikes are the true free-loaders in our country. They think they are

entitled to the benefits of a strike without having sacrificed and demonstrated the solidarity that makes a strike so effective.

I remember some years ago in Los Angeles grocery union members went on strike. Many, many consumers refused to cross the picket lines. That is what made the strike effective. So it isn't just members of the union who need to respect a strike. Workers do not forgo paychecks and miss payments for trivial matters. Strikes are serious business and should be respected by all who want a 40-hour week, overtime, a minimum wage and all the working conditions that people now think are guaranteed by the government. For nearly every one of those working conditions now secured by a law passed in a legislature, some union worker sacrificed a long time ago. None of it came easily. None of it was free. Every improvement in the workplace was fought for.

[joeglow3]

210. I agree completely.

But those things are now mandated by the government, thanks to the work of our ancestors.

[SnowCritter]

234. That doesn't mean we don't need to be vigilant

What government gives, the government can take away. All that needs to happen is that enough anti-labor individuals get elected to the seats of power. How long will those government mandates last?

[sunnystarr]

273. Right to work states

are the first step by government to take away all the benefits we now take for granted and which have been already pointed out on this thread. Republicans have already introduced a separate lower minimum wage for younger workers as well as supporting the return of child labor. They want to eliminate the EPA and unravel all the federal worker protections. I'm a New Yorker who transplanted to Tennessee where you have the Right to Work for Less and have no worker protections against unfair firing.

[socialist_n_TN]

322. This^^^^^^^^^^^^ Anybody who thinks......

that this fight is over just because a few laws were passed, is VERY naïve about the nature of capitalism. It will never be over as long as capitalism is extant.

[Enthusiast]

235. +1 a whole bunch.......nt

[arely staircase]

191. tampering would be politicians illegally making threats to influence the outcome of a labor vote

He should be investigated and there should be a new vote.

[Notafraidtoo]

194. The Union didn't destroy his car or spit in his face

A few assholes did, you sound like someone who blames a group of people for the actions of a few. If hes not a lying asshole conservative then its foolish to blame an entire group of people for the illegal actions of a few don't you think, there is no group in this world 100% free of crime not even boy scouts or Nuns that is not to say we shouldn't shine a light on all corruption but like most conservatives you seem to think the guy stealing a loaf of bread is the same as the guy who steals a 1000 retirement pensions. Did you get your post count in the pro gun forum and attacking feminist?

Did you ever think who has the most to gain from such behavior? It certainly isn't the Union. Maybe it was company hired union saboteurs ( yes every strike has them). As with everything you should always follow the money.


Anyway what you don't know, Bob Corker lied about VW right before the Union vote, he said that he had private discussions with them and said they told him that if the union vote fails VW would build SUV's in the Tenn plant. This was a bold faced lie that VW denied, VW actually wants a Union because they believe Union workers make better products. The Tenn plant is the only one VW has that is not unionized and since day one they have encouraged a pro union vote.

With out organized labor we will never rebuild the middle class, it will continue to collapse unless workers stand up and say no. People disconnected and only concerned with wealth have only the incentive of lowering wages. What makes you think they will ever raise them out of the kindness of their hearts?

Every year you work for the same wage you make less then you did the year before because the average inflation in the US is around 4%, this happens when wages stay the same or even lower like we are seeing now. Do you think you should get a 4% pay cut every year? I can tell you right now your boss and owners don't take that pay cut.

Stop being weak, demand to be treated fairly, stop shortchanging yourself and your family and demand fair compensation because with out you business wouldn't make a dime.

Lets say you have to pick a side based on which group has done the most evil, do you really think union workers are the evil ones? If you do believe they are just as evil you do not belong on this forum, kindly take your poison elsewhere. This is a forum for liberals not anti union teabaggers.

[Jake Stern]

197. "Maybe it was company hired union saboteurs. . . ."

If that was the case then real union strikers could have said "Hey, this wasn't us. This was done by those assholes over there!".

Reminds me of when some so-called anarchist group gets busted breaking stuff and then squeals that it was agents provocateurs that were smashing windows and the like. They can never seem to explain why they never made a move to expel these infiltrators from their group or even try to prevent them from rampaging.

So being against vandalism against someone's personal property makes someone an anti-union teabagger? Nice to know.

[niyad]

206. welcome to du, and enjoy what might be a short stay.

[Enthusiast]

237. Expel these infiltrators? Infiltrators, by their very nature, seek to remain under the radar

until the day of their act of sabotage. You are probably VERY familiar with this tactic.

I think we should call the moderator's attention to someone that should be expelled right now. Oh, moderators!

[rbixby]

288. agents provocateurs indeed

You seem to be speaking from a place of knowledge about this topic....

[grahamhgreen]

214. +1.

[Enthusiast]

236. +1 a whole bunch.......nt

[SoCalNative]

203. Doesn't matter what he could or couldn't afford to do

when you join a union you agree to abide by their rules, including NOT working or crossing picket lines when they're on strike.

Unions have funds that pay strikers when on strike. That's one of the reasons you pay dues.

[grahamhgreen]

213. What company? What year?

[joeglow3]

224. Qwest Communications. Omaha. Late 1990's or early 2000's.

[bread_and_roses]

217. No one is defending violence - & your "friend" was a Scab

And worse than a Scab - usually Scabs are non-members who cross the line to do the work the union is not doing. But by your account your "friend" was a member.

There's this concept called "solidarity." You think that all the others on the strike line were living on easy street and that a strike was not hard on them too? You think there were not parents on that line wondering how they were going to feed their kids? How they were going to keep a roof over their heads? I can assure you, there were. Because there always are.

Unions hold a VOTE to go on strike - and if you are a union member you abide by the vote and stand with your Sisters and Brothers. Strikes are never undertaken lightly. They are always a last resort.

No one is defending violence. But this has nothing to do with vote manipulation or intimidation. If the union was on strike, the vote to strike had already been taken.

[joeglow3]

225. That sounds a hell of a lot like rationalization

And bullshit it doesn't have anything to do with intimidation.

[Enthusiast]

229. We better outlaw organized labor!

Vote for right to work now! The nation has seen such improvement now that unions only represent less than 7% of the workforce. We shouldn't interfere with this progress! Yay!

[madokie]

7. Have we read the same article

why do you dislike Unions??? pray tell.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

8. I think it's becoming clear

[badtoworse]

10. My experience being in one and dealings I've had over the years.

Last edited Wed Feb 19, 2014, 08:46 PM - Edit history (1)

[madokie]

11. Fill us in on what the problem you had was

[badtoworse]

91. Sure thing...

My first job was with the City of New York where I was working as a piping designer for the Board of Water Supply. I belonged to the Civil Service Technical Guild, Local 375 of the AFSCME District Council 37. I'm fresh out of school and I wanted to do the best job I could. I'm there about 6 or 8 months and the shop steward takes me aside and tells me I'm causing problems. He said the union had an understanding about the time it takes to create a piping drawing and I was working too fast - it was making a lot of the older guys look bad. Basically, he wanted me to do a half-assed job so the rest of the union wouldn't look like a bunch of slackers.

I was pretty disillusionedand more than a little pissed off. Where does a union come off telling me I shouldn't do my best? After that, I decided that unions weren't for me and I haven't belong to one since.

[madokie]

94. So one time was all it took for you

You're easy

[badtoworse]

95. Actually, it was the best decision I ever made.

I have done way better on my own than I would have if I stayed a union worker.

[madokie]

96. And I can appreciate that but do you need to piss on all unions for that one incident

[badtoworse]

118. That is just my personal experience being in one

Last edited Wed Feb 19, 2014, 10:31 PM - Edit history (2)

On a job I was project managing once, I had to write off about $500,000 in development expenses because my contractor couldn't afford to use union labor. It wasn't the union wage that sunk the project; it was the absysmally low productivity factor associated with union labor in the NYC area - at the time, 0.3 compared to the national average. We could have done the job with some work rule changes, but the unions were unwilling to deal.

I've seen unions file one unrelated lawsuit after another stopping my job to force us to use union labor for at least some of the work. I guess we should have been thankful - a lot of other unions would have slashed tires and vandalized equipment and materials.

It's not unusual for union electricians or communication workers to cut cables just before they go on strike. Can't say I personally saw it happen, but I heard the stories when I worked at various power companies.

Then there were my pain in the ass commutes into NYC when the TWU went on their illegal strikes.

I watched union teamsters, riggers and operating engineers dogging it to drag out the job. They weren't even embarrassed about it - they told me they were doing it because things were slow and they didn't know where their next job might be.

The thing that pisses me off the most is the hypocrisy. The same guys that would be screaming if management hired scabs or brought in some goons to disperse a picket line would think nothing of cracking heads and vandalizing a non-union jobsite. What's really amazing to me is how many union guys on this board think that's perfectly OK or just look the other way.

Unions have accomplished some good things, but they're not even close to being angels. Sorry, I don't like unions

[niyad]

124. it appears that you have never had any positive experiences with unions,

only those that reinforce the reichwing, anti-union memes.

nobody ever claimed unions were angels, you know. but then, there are not too many corporate employers who are, either. tell me, where do you think the 40-hour work week and vacations, and prohibited child labor and things came from? certainly wasn't from the goodness of the employers' hearts. tirangle? ludlow?

[badtoworse]

148. You are correct. My experiences with unions have not been positive ones.

I have a question for you: When do the ends justify the means?

[niyad]

150. and so amazingly like every single reichwing anti-union meme we ever hear. triangle? ludlow?

[neverforget]

154. Because we know that corporations always go out of their way to provide the best

benefits, wages and work environment for their workers.

[niyad]

158. out of the sheer goodness of their hearts, with NO outside prodding!

[Notafraidtoo]

199. The problem was the low ball bid.

Cant blame the workers for stupid ass bids, that was your boss.

Question, was your family well off enough to send you to school? or did you need a student loan? or are you so old that you worked in the days unions were so strong you could make enough to pay for college? If your family sent you good for you but you don't understand shit, if your answer is one of the other two it would not be possible with out unions.

A few bad apples makes you hate the working class, but the system you support fucks us all.

[badtoworse]

200. You're proud of a 0.3 Productivity Factor? I'd be embarrassed, but to each his own.

Last edited Thu Feb 20, 2014, 10:05 AM - Edit history (1)

I don't hate the working class at all; I just dislike unions because my personal experiences with them have been bad.

As for what I support, that would be fairness. I believe workers should be free to organize or join a union if they want to, but I don't think they should be forced to, either by shop rules or intimidation. I don't think management should be able to sanction people for trying to organize a union and if a union is organized, I believe management should deal with it in good faith. If the union organization fails, as it did with VW, I believe the union should accept the will of the majority. In my opinion, this makes a level playing field and if unions are as great as you think they are, they should be able to live with that. Where do I have it wrong?

[fleabiscuit]

233. "Where do I have it wrong?"

Power. There is no level playing field. Didn't you read about that in the Labor Section of the newspaper this morning?

[badtoworse]

248. I guess I missed that. Link?

[fleabiscuit]

251. Exactly.

You didn't miss it at all.

[Enthusiast]

238. Don't you just hate those damn unions?

[badtoworse]

249. I don't hate them, but I do dislike them

What can I say? My experience with unions hasn't been good.

[niyad]

98. one experience, with one person? wow. . .just. . .wow. you mentioned other dealings--care to

elaborate?

[badtoworse]

119. See Post 118

[niyad]

90. "my experience be in one"?? huh?? do you mean "being in one"?? if so, which union? and what

dealings over the years?

[badtoworse]

93. I was using a Blackberry on the bus and sometimes I leave typos

See Post 91

ETA: I fixed it

[bravenak]

306. You should stay off the bus. Drivers have unions and we know how much you hate unions.

Stay away from hospitals too, union nurses.
Rail roads too, unions.
Credit unions might scare you too, avoid those.
Lots of grocery chains use unionized workers, better check and find the un unionized stores, like walmart.
Please don't drive on the roads or use public roads, union workers built many of those, so you should avoid them if possible, you don't want to have a bad experience.
Turn in your cell phone and stuff, cause the ibew is involved with telecom stuff. It's another union.
Refuse your mail too. Postal workers are unionized and bad experience from the past, and all that, should ensure that you avoid sending or recieving mail through the usps. Damn unions!!
Can't stand them, amiright?

[badtoworse]

311. See No. 200 for more color on my views about unions.

Honestly, I don't spend a lot of time worrying about unions. I just don't like them; never needed one and wouldn't want to be in one.

[bravenak]

312. You need one everyday.

That's the point I was trying to make. You depend on them for transportation, water, power, phone service, education, roads, bridges, mail, etc.
You use their services everyday, but don't respect them. It makes no sense.

[badtoworse]

313. That's just not true. I do use the services, but they could also be provided by non-union workers.

As long as he drives safely and gets me there on time, I don't care whether the bus driver is in a union or not. An IBEW friend of mine drinks Budweiser because it's union made, I don't like Bud, but I'll have it in the fridge if he's coming over. To me the only thing that matters is whether the beer tastes good. I have no idea whether the brews I like are union made or not.

I think people on this thread have really overreacted to my comment about not liking unions. It's my opinion and it's based on my personal experiences - it's unfortunate people can't accept that.

[VanillaRhapsody]

14. You don't believe in brainwashing either than do you?

Southerners have been brainwashed with "right to work" bullshit propaganda...

[badtoworse]

18. I think southerners are no less intelligent than any other demographic group.

They're not idiots and can make up their own minds. Do you disagree?

[Adrahil]

33. Have you seen how they vote? NT

[VanillaRhapsody]

36. do you agree that "right to work" is bullshit propaganda or NOT?

[joeglow3]

42. I like it in my profession

Honestly, I am damn good at what I do. I am consistently rated the top manager in my department and get nice raises. I have received 4 raises in the last 13 months. Frankly, I deserve more than my peers. I work harder, work more hours, handle more difficult tasks more efficiently, etc. In short, I provide more value to the company than my peers do. I expect to make more money.

My profession is unionized in Wisconsin (I had an insurance client there) and the workers all left at five and did little beyond what was needed. I saw no one there working to excel or differentiate themselves from their peers. That is fine and great for those that desire that. Personally, I know my skills are known within the city I live in and I would be able to find a job easily. I honestly am not interested in stunting my growth for someone who won't work as hard as I will.

[VanillaRhapsody]

43. "Management" that figures....

[joeglow3]

47. Good cop out

Why shut out discussion when we could have a conversation and reach an understanding?

[VanillaRhapsody]

121. when everyone else seems to agree with me?

[joeglow3]

123. Wow you always have an answer for why to NOT have a discussion

Wonder why that is?

[VanillaRhapsody]

126. I am not discussing with you that YOU think you work harder than everyone else

no....because I don't believe it...

Now do you or don't you think "Right to work" is bullshit propaganda or NOT?

Because I am pretty sure that most liberals will say yes to that question...

[VanillaRhapsody]

129. got 3 words for you....

Triangle Shirtwaist Factory....

nuff said!

[niyad]

160. sad how many people have no idea what those three words mean, and I know the anniversary

is coming up, as is ludlow. did you see the documentary about triangle, shown for the 100th anniversary? very powerful, and heartbreaking. the bastards who owned it actually made money off it (like the first "dead peasants" payoffs)

[VanillaRhapsody]

161. I am just fuming tonight over this turn of events....I guess we now know that there really ARE

some people who are the far right of the Democratic party....Boy...sometimes I think the tent is TOO big!

[niyad]

169. as richard wolff was saying in one of his speeches (just happened to catch part of it the other day)

we want all sorts of choices in our supermarkets and shopping malls, but we accept having only two parties to run the government. he was talking about how in germany, any party that gets a certain percentage of the votes gets a certain percentage of the seats in the govt--and money for education and outreach, etc. think it is far past time we have something similar. don't think the tent is too big--i think the big top blew away a long time ago.

[niyad]

221. sadly, that big tent once included fred phelps and ray nagin.

[VanillaRhapsody]

245. FRED Phelps?

baloney....

Unless he was one of those "dixiecrats".....

and PULEEZE Ray Nagin is the best you could find to insult the entire Democratic party?

[niyad]

262. seriously. look him up.

I was agreeing with you that the tent may, in fact, be tooooooo big, considering some who wear, or wore, the label.

most families have some pretty embarrassing relatives, but these. . .

[socialist_n_TN]

100. We rarely agree, but we do here.......

Management means toady for the ruling class.

[VanillaRhapsody]

44. Do you even know what "right to work" is?

from your description I don't think so...

[joeglow3]

51. Yeah I do

My company can fire anyone for any reason that is not a violation of their civil rights. Guess what, that won't happen to me. Why? because I add value to the company. Sure, they may fire someone who does a shitty job. Why would I support forcing them to retain a shitty employee that, untimately, means they get to dump work on me because they cannot get their job done?

But, isn't it more fun to sit on our high horse and pretend like we know everything and those that don't agree with us just do so out of ignorance? Sure makes it easier to never have to learn, understand or grow.

[VanillaRhapsody]

53. Oh yes YOU CAN be laid OFF my friend...NO ONE is unexpendable

You seem to be under the mistaken perception that EVERYONE that has been laid off...DESERVED it!

[joeglow3]

58. And I will walk across the street and work there

I am a tax accountant and everyone has to pay taxes. I worked in 2 Big Four firms before coming here and I know people all around who comment of how good I am at my job. I get calls every other month asking me if I am interested in a position. This is all because I bust my ass, enjoy what I do and do a damn good job.

That said, one thing I have never understood is unions members who would bankrupt a company just to get more money today. There have been local union heads here who flat out said they would do just that because it is their job to get as much as possible. That is an idiotic position and I can't/won't support. You may not have enough confidence in your skills, but I do have confidence in my skills. I am not going to limit my potential out of fear that a company may lay me off.

[VanillaRhapsody]

62. Yeah...doubling down...everyone that gets laid off....deserves it...they just don't work as hard as

joeglow3...

Yeah I think we have heard this exact same statement made recently about Billionaires....they just work harder than everyone else...


If you think this belief is going to fly on a Liberal forum.....all I can say is..."nice knowing ya" your time here is limited I suspect.

[joeglow3]

69. I have been on this board six years longer than you.

Do you think it is possible for ANY person to work harder than ANY OTHER person? Why is it a conservative position to think that is possible?

However, this is not the first time someone has disagreed with me, but rather than discuss their point, simply advocated for the me to be kicked off the board.

For the record, I support unions. My father was a union drywaller for 30 years. However, I also support someone's position to want to join a union or not.

Unions are needed more in a profession with an more easily attained skill required. Typically, it is a field where many more people are capable of learning the skill than there is demand for the position. Without unions, we could end up with a Grapes of Wrath scenario. That said, I am in a profession that is constantly on top 10 most in demand professions. I will always be able to find work. Add in the fact that I am real good at what I do, I have no need to worry about long term employment (short of us going to a flat tax). Thus, when I go to Wisconsin and see fellow professionals in a union, I have to scratch my head and ask why?

Now, regardless of all this, I HAVE to accept the right of people to decide what they want. I cannot support management intimidating people to vote a certain way. Likewise, I cannot sell out my morals and support behaviors that have happened to friends because it gets me money. I want a honest and fair system. Sadly, it seems like both sides want the other to behave appropriately, while they piss all over any civility, barely stoping short of beating the shit out of anyone who won't vote they way they want.

[doc03]

114. In a non-union environment the guy that works harder doesn't always get rewarded. My father worked in

a steel mill before unions. You know who got rewarded then hmmm? The guy that put $5 in the foreman's pocket on
payday. The guy that was the son of one of the management team. The guy that mowed the boss's grass. The guy that dated or
married the boss's daughter. The guy that played golf with the boss. The guy that belonged to same lodge. The guy that kissed the boss's
ass. Which one of those are you?

[joeglow3]

120. Unions are just as bad

Kellog's offers summer jobs for college students at a plant here in omaha (at least they did 15 years ago). They paid great, but you worked about 65 hours a week, with shit tons of overtime pay. Myself and two friends applied. We didn't hear shit. A gal (who told us about the job) who lived on our dorm floor got a job and loved it. Oh, and her dad was a union member there. And, she told us the ONLY people who got the summer jobs were family members of union members. Apparently, it have been that way for many years.

Thus, using your logic, what have we gained? We now have TWO sets of masters.

[doc03]

140. Unions are just bad? I worked 40 years in a steel mill and have a good pension and

good health insurance. Do you think the company gave us that out of the goodness of their heart? The mill is a dirty and dangerous place to work, I guess probably
about 15 people were killed in our plant over those years. There were some areas where few people actually lived to retire. I don't even want to think of
how many people would have been killed there if not for the union stressing safety. If you worked in that environmnt I don't think you would be wanting to work
16 hours a day.

[joeglow3]

155. Good for you

Too bad for those who didn't have family members already in the union.

[doc03]

314. I didn't have family members in the union, my dad

worked management. I also know many that started when I did that didn't have family in the union. I don't care if a shop is union or non-union
you will have people hired that are related to other employees and WTF is wrong with that. If I am an excellent employee and you were my employer
wouldn't you be more lickly to hire my son than a stranger?

[joeglow3]

323. The problem is when a union shop only hires family members

Kellogg's and the pipe fitters are two here that are notorious for only allowing family members in. Essentially, they have created a separate ruling class that is helping to keep people down.

[doc03]

329. What about companies that will not hire people that have ever worked in a union

shop. The steel plant I worked in closed a few years ago and the only good paying jobs around here are with oil and gas drillers. They claim nobody
in this area can pass a drug test, so all of their people come from southern non-union states. Funny how the steel mill and construction unions around here had very
strict drug policies and now nobody can pass a piss test. But those white trash thugs from southern non-union states can find work here.

[joeglow3]

331. Two wrongs make a right?

One of my pet peeves is when someone CANNOT admit something is wrong, so they try to turn it around and say "so-and-so did it first."

[eggplant]

72. So because you aren't concerned about asshole employers, that should comfort the rest of us?

You got yours, so it's all ok?

[VanillaRhapsody]

74. EXACTLY!

joe seems to think that no one works as hard as HE does "managing".

[joeglow3]

84. Manager is just a title

It is a promotion based not on managing people, but based on technical skills. However, I see you continue to believe you know it all. Sure makes it easier to dismiss anything contrary to our on beliefs. That way we never have to challenge ourselves to expand our knowledge base.

[joeglow3]

83. I bust my ass to get mine, so yeah.

I am taking a break right not, but am still at the office at 6:30. I will probably be here until 8 or 9. Most of my coworkers were ghosts before 5:00.

I enjoy what I do, but don't pretend like someone handed me a pile of money and I am said "fuck you."

[VanillaRhapsody]

125. and no one else "busts their asses" right?

Are you saying everyone else has money "handed to them"?

Excuse me if I barf...

[joeglow3]

132. You need to slow to

I said no one handed me a pile of money. I am NOT saying everyone else has money "handed to them."

To answer your first question, there are two other people who bust their ass. The rest (about 30) do NOT. The have adopted a mentality of meeting the minimum and getting a paycheck. I do NOT feel guilty for the additional salary/rewards I earn. For the record, I was here until 12:30 last night and am just checking this before leaving for the evening (9:00 here).

[VanillaRhapsody]

139. I am not talking about your anecdotal experiences....that is NOT

indicative of ANYTHING but where YOU work.

That is all.

I don't care how long you work.....some people have families to raise....

In fact I am going to sit back and watch you get your "hard working ass" handed to you by Liberals in this thread...

[joeglow3]

163. I have a wife and three kids

I get time with them when things aren't busy (quarter end). And your experiences are indicative of nothing but where you work.

I have worked at four companies and had the same experience at all of them.

Again, I work to differentiate myself from my peers. At all places I worked, this has paid off. I started at a salary of 37,000 with a masters degree (after work full time in college and 80 hours a week in summers and paying all my schooling/living costs on my own) and my CPA. Fourteen years later and I now make 130,000. My wife and I donate 15% to charities, I sit on the board of two charities and we make it a point to spend 1 day a month with our children volunteering. We make it a point to help out those who need it, but I do not apologize for what I have worked for. For me the drive is to have the financial security we never had when I was growing up. If I can help just less fortunate family get to a better place with my successes, it is worth it.

I will fight for progressive values. However, I support a structure that, in addition to providing a reasonable minimum safety net, allows for people to succeed even more based on their merits.

Out of college, my wife worked as a union nurse. She work the night shift (7 to 7) in post partum and newborn nursery. She has always been a hard worker and busted her ass. When she had easier patients, she would help out the other nurses who had more difficult patients. When her shift was over, she would stick around later to help cover the shift change. Most other nurses did not help others out and skated out as soon as the clock hit 7. On one occasion, she was in the bathroom and noticed a security device sitting on the counter (they all had to wear them because they had babies). After spending ten minutes looking for the nurse, she found her sleeping in a room. She notified the head nurse and they lady was reprimanded. A month later, they noticed the Percocet counts were off. Eventually, they were able to trace it back to this nurse. She was given a two week suspension. When the end of the year came around, every single nurse got the exact same raise. She quickly learned why the vast majority of the veteran nurses didn't help out and were clock watchers. She has since left and joined a private OB/GYN practice, where she has thrived.

I am not saying I think unions are a bad thing. I am simply saying all too often (in our personal experiences) they fostered mediocrity. I think that needs to change. In a hospital of all places, I want all staff being motivated to offer the best care possible. This CAN be accomplished without striking the fear of firing into people.

[doc03]

138. Maybe some of your coworkers have a life outside of work. Maybe

the rest of them aren't as money hungry as you. They may think family is more important than sucking up to the boss

[Lonusca]

183. Sounds like 30 of 33 do exactly that

Isn't that good? The 3 who want to put in the extra time do, and the 30 that don't, don't?

[niyad]

216. welcome to du

[Lonusca]

219. Thank you. nt

[doc03]

141. From this post it doesn't look like you have a clue what the "Right to Work" law

is.

[joeglow3]

156. Enlighten me

It doesn't mean a company can fire anyone for any reason that isn't because of a protected class.

[A HERETIC I AM]

304. Do you know what the essence of "right-to-work" laws are?

Or are you just being intentionally obscure?

[doc03]

315. I know what the fuck Right to Work laws are but this know it all union

hater obviously doesn't from his posts. Who the fuck asked you anyway?

[A HERETIC I AM]

318. You understand I wasn't asking you, dontcha there Chuckles? n/t

[fleabiscuit]

247. Because without context you are basically you are having an illogical argument.

You're damn good at what you do? Is what you do primarily centered on helping your coworkers excel? Do you even think that's an important part of "working" for a living? Who gave you your values?

[joeglow3]

257. After 20 years of working in my area (the average tenure for people at my level)

you are damn right I am not spending my time and resources teaching them shit they should have learned 15 years ago. A HUGE part of my job is being able to learn as issues come up. Show me one person who is an expert at our thousands of pages of tax code, tens of thousands of pages of Regulations and countless IRS rulings, court cases, etc.

The things the don't excel at are not things they don't understand because someone won't hold their hand. They are things that they don't excel at because they are great at it. No amount of "helping" them will increase their value.

However, your mindset is what is wrong with people. We should NOT be identifying weaknesses and trying to fix them. We should be identifying strengths and focusing on how to leverage them. Maybe that is why I am good at my job. I decided to find out what I did good and make a living at it. I didn't try to find something I sucked at and hope someone would hold my hand.

[fleabiscuit]

264. That's some interesting word salad.

But I highly doubt that is something you could make up on your own, or hold down a job with.

[joeglow3]

270. Okay

Unfortuantely for you, I will sleep the same regardless of if you believe me or not.

[sunnystarr]

283. YOU YOU YOU

You're in love with YOU YOU YOU ...

This issue is much greater and more important than YOU with YOUR accounting position.

Unions are about WE. Together we give power to our collective voice. Alone we are powerless. Unions were traditionally Trade Unions and you joined green and then trained to reach higher levels of knowledge in your craft. There is a structure and when you reach higher levels of expertise your hourly wage increases.

My SIL is IBEW and a Master Electrician. He entered out of college not knowing a thing in a NON-Union shop. They didn't teach him a thing and he remained a laborer until, through a family connection, he got into the IBEW. Then those with knowledge trained him and the union had the classes he had to attend. He's a hard worker and one of the best in his field.

Unions serve many functions for their workers, not only in your limited area where you can go to college to be an accountant and not give a damn about collective bargaining.

I worked for Bristol Laboratories in Syracuse, NY. They were proudly non-Union and never worried about becoming a union shop. The reason they had no fear of that is because they gave their employees all the union benefits and wages. This is what the Unions did. Without them the company wouldn't have offered the pay scale and benefits.

We can't even begin to pay back all that Unions have provided for the workers in the US. All the sacrifices made for a better life and future for all workers. Are they perfect? No of course not. But just like we don't tear up our Constitution because we have crooked politicians on both sides and politicians who shame us with their indiscretions, we should all be supporting unions EVERY time they are under attack!

[0rganism]

275. counting some pronouns: "I" = 15, "my" = 6, total words = 165, %(I,my) = 21/165 = 12.7% > 1/8

quoting with emphasis

-------------------

Honestly, I am damn good at what I do. I am consistently rated the top manager in my department and get nice raises. I have received 4 raises in the last 13 months. Frankly, I deserve more than my peers. I work harder, work more hours, handle more difficult tasks more efficiently, etc. In short, I provide more value to the company than my peers do. I expect to make more money.

My profession is unionized in Wisconsin (I had an insurance client there) and the workers all left at five and did little beyond what was needed. I saw no one there working to excel or differentiate themselves from their peers. That is fine and great for those that desire that. Personally, I know my skills are known within the city I live in and I would be able to find a job easily. I honestly am not interested in stunting my growth for someone who won't work as hard as I will.

-------------------

Yes, your post makes it quite unambiguous why you might prefer a "right to work" situation. Thank you for providing such clarifying commentary.

[joeglow3]

291. What is your point? I am explaining my situation

I would make sense I use words like I. Should I refer to myself in the third person?

Seriously, my point was summarized in an example I gave:

"Out of college, my wife worked as a union nurse. She work the night shift (7 to 7) in post partum and newborn nursery. She has always been a hard worker and busted her ass. When she had easier patients, she would help out the other nurses who had more difficult patients. When her shift was over, she would stick around later to help cover the shift change. Most other nurses did not help others out and skated out as soon as the clock hit 7. On one occasion, she was in the bathroom and noticed a security device sitting on the counter (they all had to wear them because they had babies). After spending ten minutes looking for the nurse, she found her sleeping in a room. She notified the head nurse and they lady was reprimanded. A month later, they noticed the Percocet counts were off. Eventually, they were able to trace it back to this nurse. She was given a two week suspension. When the end of the year came around, every single nurse got the exact same raise. She quickly learned why the vast majority of the veteran nurses didn't help out and were clock watchers. She has since left and joined a private OB/GYN practice, where she has thrived.

I am not saying I think unions are a bad thing. I am simply saying all too often (in our personal experiences) they fostered mediocrity. I think that needs to change. In a hospital of all places, I want all staff being motivated to offer the best care possible. This CAN be accomplished without striking the fear of firing into people."

[badtoworse]

78. No, I don't agree it's propaganda. It's a legitimate issue.

[VanillaRhapsody]

127. Oh you think it is a GOOD idea?

or not?

Does "Right to Work" help the employee or employer?

Its actually the "right to fire your ass" for no reason....

[badtoworse]

146. Actually, Right to Work is about fairness to the individual worker.

"right to fire your ass for no reason"? In my entire career (40+ years), I've never seen that happen. Companies just don't fire good workers without a reason. On the other hand, I have seen some pretty piss poor workers kept on because the union made it impossible to get rid of them.

Have you ever fired someone? I have - three times and I can tell you, it is not something you want or like to do.

[VanillaRhapsody]

147. the FUCK it is....

You cannot believe that and call yourself a Liberal!

If that were true.....why are almost all the poorest states....the Right to work states?

Politifact TRUE:

http://www.politifact.com/rhode-island/statements/2014/jan/12/occupy-democrats/pro-democrat-group-says-9-10-poorest-states-are-re/

[badtoworse]

149. I believe people should be given a choice, how is that not liberal?

[VanillaRhapsody]

151. And I believe that Right To Work is bullshit propaganda to fool the employees into thinking

its good for THEM! And it is most certainly NOT!

and VW is going to go elsewhere because it doesn't want such dumbasses working for them. I don't blame them!


Yeah those Unions sure do screw up ALL of GERMANY huh?


(and people on DU have the nerve to call me a right wing Dem for supporting the Democratic President I voted for or some such rot....never have I run across this attitude on DU before....I am astonished!)

[quakerboy]

113. I think southerners are no more intelegent than any other group

but arrive at the table inoculated with a cultural disadvantage, and often times also arrive at the table with an information deficit.

Information deficit seems to be a common problem, but in certain subcultures, it is less likely to be challenged or noticed. You can be very intelligent, but if the facts underpinning your knowledge are incorrect, you will make bad decisions more often than someone of equal intelligence and more accurate knowledge. Especially if you have been taught from birth to be emotionally manipulated.

[Enthusiast]

239. They were subjected to 100 years of anti-union propaganda.

Think that has an impact?

[badtoworse]

252. The short answer is no.

They watch the same news as the rest of the country.

[Enthusiast]

261. 100 years ago they didn't watch anything.

And the anti-labor sentiment was even more firmly entrenched than in the industrial North. Think back to the history of the era.

[badtoworse]

277. Perhaps there is an entrenched anti-union bias there

They're still not idiots and if unions are as great as their supporters claim, they should be able to change minds. The context of the sub-thread is pretty insulting to the South.

[fleabiscuit]

274. That's amazing!

You got that wrong for exactly the right reason. That's the kind of irony that's hard to ignore lol.

[sunnystarr]

279. They watch Fox News

They listen to Limpballs, Hannity and the local wannabee who demonizes and trashes all things liberal. Their churches are filled with right wingers. They are still anti the Union (meaning federal government). I'm in Nashville where, along with Memphis, are the only two cities where liberals abound. They believe they are upholding Christian values when in fact they vote against them. The difference between my native New York and here is staggering. They are really nice people who just don't use the rational part of their brain to think things through and are totally uneducated in the history of this country. They are easily led as was evidenced by the VW union vote and even the election that put Corker in as Senator (based on racially prejudiced campaign ad).

[badtoworse]

280. See No. 277

[fleabiscuit]

296. You're using a false dichotomy.

The two sides are not equal, there cannot be an equal argument. It's not stupid, it's not being able to see it.

"Come listen all you galls and boys,
I'm going to sing a little song,
My name is Jim Crow.
Weel about and turn about and do jis so,
Eb'ry time I weel about I jump Jim Crow."

[Go Vols]

21. Not all of us have been

Quite a few Union shops around here and most folks at my local watering hole are Union members.

[VanillaRhapsody]

37. that's where YOU are...

is "right to work" bullshit propaganda or not?

[Ghost in the Machine]

143. Tennessee is a "Right to work" state, but still has plenty of Union jobs....

....especially in the skilled labor forces at the Nuclear Plants. Here's a list of Unions that are established in the State:

http://www.unions.org/unions/tennessee/42

Peace,

Ghost

[VanillaRhapsody]

144. How about in all the other Southern States?

does the same hold true?

No???

My ex was IBEW after working years NON Union...I KNOW the difference...BELIEVE me!

First he went from working for $15 an hour (1985 dollars) to $45 an hour! Second we FINALLY had good health insurance...I can tell you this....Life was a different as night and day!

the UNIONS are the ONLY thing standing between US and indentured servitude...if you think it can't happen....

Think Sharecropping!


by the way...Tennesee also has a Socialized electrical grid called the Tennesee Valley Authority....brought to you by FDR! Yeah I know about this because of my Ex...


OH yeah and No Teachers Union in SC.....know what that gets em? Lowest SAT scores in the country...THATS what!

[Ghost in the Machine]

181. I'm from the South, and grew up in a Union household and family!

My grandfather was a charter member of Local Union 725 (Pipefitters/Steamfitters, Welders and Airconditioning Mechanics). My father is a 57 year member, as is one of my uncles. My other uncle would have over 60 years now, but he passed on a few years ago. While wotking on a travel ticket at Watts Bar Nuclear Plant over 35 years ago, my dad helped his brother-in-law, one of my uncles by marriage, get into the Apprenticeship Program for Pipefitters/Steamfitters out of Local 43 in Chattanooga, Tn. I was on my way to becoming a 3rd generation member of Local 725 when, in my 3rd year of Apprenticeship, we went on strike 3 times in 8 months. I had a family to feed, a car to pay for and a home to pay for, so I went to work with a non-union residential airconditioning company making the same money as I was as a 3rd year Apprentice. The Union found out about that, and was going to FINE ME for doing pipe work on Central A/C units!! It hurt me inside at the time, but I told them to fuck off and tore my Apprenticeship Card up in front of them and walked out!

When I was 9 years old, my dad was elected President of the Union. This was back in '72. We used to get daily phone calls with death threats, letters in the mail with death threats and regular occurances of someone trying to break into our house, usually on Tuesday nights when my dad was gone to the weekly Union meetings and it was just my mom, my older sister, me and my newborn sister at home.

Needless to say, we had extra police patrols on our street those nights, but it didn't seem to deter the person trying to break in, as the cops just drove by. They never got out of the car and checked around the whole house. What DID deter him was the night I heard him trying to take out the jalousie windows at the back door. While my mom was on the phone with the cops I got ready for him. He had two windows out, reached in and unlocked the door... and when he opened the door, I shot him in the face with pellet gun that was pumped up 20 times. He let out a blood-curdling scream then took off running. My mom was still on the phone and told them I had just shot him with a pellet gun. They already had a unit in the area, and caught him less than 2 blocks from our house. I just turned 51 today, and I *still* remember that night like it was yesterday. Who knows *what* would have happened to us if he had gotten in? We wound up moving not much longer than that.

My dad worked at Turkey Point Nuclear Plant from the time they broke ground. I also remember growing up hearing stories about how Union Busters accidentally fell down elevator shafts, off the Mezzanine Deck amd other accidents after they Unionized Kellog, Brown & Root and Pierce, Poole & Kent, both of which later became just Brown & Root and Poole & Kent. I believe they were both subsidiaries of Halliburton.

I don't know anything about Unions in other Southern States, but I sure as hell don't need anyone preaching to me about the benefits of Union vs non-Union workers. Even though I dropped out, I still SUPPORT Unions 100%!

Someone upthead had the gall to say:

Unions are needed more in a profession with an more easily attained skill required. Typically, it is a field where many more people are capable of learning the skill than there is demand for the position.

I damned near spit my tea all over the monitor! I would MUCH rather know that Nuclear Plants are being piped in and welded by someone who has gone through 5 years of Apprenticeship, which includes on the job training, and knows how to weld to Nuclear Standards, rather than Bubba and Jimbo who learned how to do a little stick-welding out on the farm, fixing the tractor or a fence post.You cannot leave a strikemark or a joint mark from changing rods or even a grind mark or dent from a chipping hammer while cleaning the slag off a joint.

There's a ton of other things that you can get away with as a "welder", but you REALLY have to KNOW what you're doing to qualify to nuclear standards. When you hire on as a welder at a Nuke Plant, the first thing you do is take a welding test... well, 3 tests.. uphill, downhill and flat welding. Next, a welding inspector will put each of your plates through a series of stress tests to make sure they don't break, then they do an x-ray test looking for voids and/or cracks inside the weld. I've seen 10 and 15 year journeymen crap out on a test because they've been "in town" too long, working on chilled water systems, commercial A/C jobs and fresh water intake and flush out systems. the standards are way different!

Peace,

Ghost

[VanillaRhapsody]

182. then why are you in this conversation????

i was talking to someone who DOESN'T support them!

[Ghost in the Machine]

187. Because you responded to someone from MY State with the following...

VanillaRhapsody (7,259 posts)
37. that's where YOU are...

is "right to work" bullshit propaganda or not?

after they said:

Go Vols (2,082 posts)
21. Not all of us have been

Quite a few Union shops around here and most folks at my local watering hole are Union members.

in response to YOU, who said:

VanillaRhapsody (7,252 posts)
14. You don't believe in brainwashing either than do you?

Southerners have been brainwashed with "right to work" bullshit propaganda...

Also, because this is a public discussion board and I have just as much right to be in this thread as you do. What are YOU doing in this thread... trying to get a little South bashing in?

Do YOU think all Southerners are brainwashed, as your post implies, and that we're all like Jethro Bodine and the rest of the "Beverly Hillbillies", the "Duck Dynasty" jagoffs, the white trash like the people on the reality show "Party Down South" or the goofball who went viral on youtube and now has a show out called "The Hollywood Hillbillies"??

Those shows are a humiliation, embarrassment and downright DISGRACE to true Southerners. We're not ALL beer-swilling, racist rednecks, nor are we ALL backwoods, 6th grade educated bumpkins who don't know their asses from a hole in the ground. Is it possible that you didn't know that the person you replied to, whose user name is "Go Vols", refers to the Tennessee Volunteers, and didn't notice the .gif of the State of Tennessee in their post?? If you don't mind telling, where are YOU from??

Peace,

Ghost

[DontTreadOnMe]

39. agree, and the German auto Unions are some of the best in the world

They work in conjuction with management, not against it, It's a win/win for both sides.

VW will end up pulling out of Tennessee, and the workers who voted deserve what they get.

Looks like Blue States are more favorable places for manufacturing.

[pangaia]

46. That's because German management works with the workers, instead of against them

[VanillaRhapsody]

48. Yep exactly....Southerners just don't understand why they are the POOREST states in the Union

and I like that we are called the "UNITED" States. This means the the states are part of a UNION of states!

Much to the dismay of certain "managers" noted on this thread.

[jeff47]

17. It's sour grapes from German workers.

Uh-huh.

Perhaps you'll next tell us of lovely stories of "union thugs", and the "freedom to work".

[niyad]

152. right there in posts 91 and 118--thugs and lazy, worthless, no-good union workers. right on cue.

[Xithras]

28. Because the union workers in the other plants aren't going to let Americans undercut them.

The American manufacturing plant is small potatoes in VW's global business, and most American VW's are either built in Germany or in their primary North American plant in Mexico (where they have been built since the 1960's). The workers in ALL of the other VW plants are unionized...even the low wage Mexican workers have a union to represent them.

If the Americans don't have a union and are willing to work for peanuts, then there's a risk that VW could shift more work to them to cut costs. That puts the workers in the other plants at risk. Considering the relatively small output of the American plant, there is NO WAY Volkswagen will risk a labor dispute in their major plants over it. If the labor unions in Germany and Mexico say "No more manufacturing in America", Volkswagen isn't going to fight them for it.

The 'thugs have just put VW's U.S. plant into an adversarial relationship with the rest of the company.

[snort]

220. +1

[pnwmom]

31. It is the Rethugs who didn't respect the right of the majority. They knew that the majority

was supporting a union. So they stepped in and started making threats about what would happen if a union were approved. Then the union lost by a small number of votes.

Blame the Rethug politicians, not the German unions or Volkswagen or the AAW.

[blackspade]

55. Anti-union fail.

It's amazing to me the number of DUers that have so little understanding of unions that they seem to enjoy it when union votes fial and 'right to work' passes.

I guess they don't appreciate the 40hr work week or weekends, the products of sacrifices of union brothers and sisters 80 years ago....

[Union Scribe]

64. Ah, with friends like you...

[wocaonimabi]

76. Workers STANDING UP for fellow Workers that is what a Union is all about

some sour grapes.

The South is gonna get a taste of workers standing up and fighting back.

They best not hope the Unions at BMW, Audi and Mercedes Benz in Germany don't decide to stand with their VW Brothers and Sisters and flex their muscle and demand Unions at ALL US Production facilities in the US which all happen to be in the South.

The Pubs may have bitten off more then they can chew this time around.

[kelliekat44]

145. Didn't Reagan do that for Poland? And then cut the union's throat here at home. nt

[JaneyVee]

106. Oh really, you don't like unions??? What a joke.

[Notafraidtoo]

307. I see you think you are morally superior because you work more hours.

You are not morally Superior for working 10 and 12 hours a day, have you ever thought that those that leave at 5 love their family's more than you do? or value the short life they were given on this planet more than you do? Do you know the number one regret of elderly men on their death bed is they didn't spend more time with their family's.

Are you self medicating by being a workaholic? working stupid hours does not make you a better person and a few more dollars isn't going to make the life of you or your family better, you are giving up the most valuable commodity on the planet for shillings, i find that very sad.

[badtoworse]

310. Are you sure you replied to the right post? You've lost me here.

[spanone]

309. the majority was screwed...this is why i hate politicians

[Pretzel_Warrior]

3. serves the stupid GOP fuck heads right.

I would laugh my ass off if that was the final result of all this GOP interferene.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. I want an NLBR challenge

and I hope the workers hear this. Internalize this, they were lied to, and kick themselves.

Now if VW comes to California, I think they will find a friendlier land.

[Dawson Leery]

12. +1

[Go Vols]

23. +1

[geardaddy]

286. +1

[G_j]

19. Workers in Germany have representation on corporate boards, giving them a say in citing decisions.

now there's a concept!

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. We insisted on that, at the end of the war, as occupiers

Irony, I know.

[BlueStreak]

131. But as it turns out, that is a much better system

than letting a handful of Harvard MBA types make exorbitant salaries while they run the businesses into the ground and put the workers into poverty.

The irony is that in our waning days, Germany is coming to our rescue.

[nadinbrzezinski]

134. The coming to our rescue, is still to be determined.

but possible.

[eppur_se_muova]

295. Not to mention siting decisions.

(Yeah, I know, they did that in the OP)

[WillyT]

30. HUGE K & R !!!

[pnwmom]

34. Volkswagen is welcome to expand in the State of Washington any time! And we have lots of

trained workers, even if Boeing doesn't appreciate that.

[Politicalboi]

38. Those lies about the SUV were debunked before the vote

These idiots just don't care about a living wage. I hope this is a lesson for VW or any other company that thinks building a godsend in the south was a BIG mistake. If the state is run by the GOP, odds are most of the workers voted for them. Build those factories in BLUE states, not red ones.

[VanillaRhapsody]

50. VW is scratching thier heads at the stupidity of the Southern American Workforce

if they cannot even defend themselves.....why would they WANT them as employees!

[Scuba]

41. Yeah, but those horrible union dues! They can be as much as $800 a year!

VW workers get paid $67 an hour in Germany

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024528079


Lessee, $67 X 2080 ... why that's over $139,000 a year! And they have a national healthcare plan.

[Gary 50]

49. Thank you VW!

Damn decent of the good folks who run VW that they recognize the workers right to representation and that they threatened to build no new plants in the South if the vote for unionization is interfered with by politicians. Did Bob Corker break any laws. Was he lying or misinformed?

[idendoit]

60. We've got an empty Ford plant here in Minneapolis.

I just read where we're ranked #2 for livability. Mayo Clinic, 1 of 5 VA Polytrauma Facilities in the country, lots of dedicated bike trails (never mind the frozen tundra part, you'll get used to it) more being added, low unemployment, Rep. Keith Ellison, Senators Klobuchar and Franken (okay, we got Bachman too and don't forget Gov. Ventura taunting the press jackals), outrageous real estate and rental pricing, 10,000 (kinda filthy) lakes. The plant generates it's own and the local power from the Mississippi. Ford built Ranger PU's there for years. We are VW's dream workforce. (UAW of course).

[dflprincess]

122. I think that site has been spoken for

but they could use the jobs up on the Range (and maybe that would help stop Polymet) - and they are union friendly up there.

[Enthusiast]

255. I would move there tomorrow if I didn't own an unsaleable house in Ohio.

I want to meet Virgil Flowers and get in on some of the great fishing. That fucking Flowers.

[geardaddy]

284. *cough*

It's in St. Paul.

But yeah, I say bring VW here. Unfortunately, I think they've already got eyes on redeveloping it. http://www.stpaul.gov/index.aspx?nid=1318

[ellie]

77. Way to go!

Show them Germans who's boss! Idiots.

This is sarcasm, BTW.

[arely staircase]

79. low taxes low wages no services

It is the Southern way! And I am not south bashing because I am a Southernor. But I am bashing the oligarchs who keep we sharecroppers working cheap. And I am a teacher and an AFL-CIO member - who can't engage in collective bargaining or strike.

[madrchsod]

80. come on people... do`t feed the trolls....

i`d say more but.....

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. The great advantage of ignore, is I do not see the feeding of them trolls

I suspected it was going on though.

Any lowlights you want to share?

[madrchsod]

133. ain`t worth the trouble...

both sides of the family have/are union members. my wife is the chair of her local the afscme people committee.

[nadinbrzezinski]

135. I know what you mean

[TRoN33]

92. VW, please open a new factory in....

Brattleboro, Vermont! We're pro-Union and we're also hard working people. Bring it to here!

[B Calm]

101. The NLRB should overturn the vote and the Governor of Tennessee should be impeached!

[Loki]

102. I was raised in a union family.

With a last name like Schroeder I was also very familiar with German engineering and we had GM cars, a VW beetle and my uncle loved to use a VW beetle to herd his cattle with (no joke). I grew up around VWs and in the 60's there were many fun time in the "hippie bus". I wrote a letter to VW corporate when the results of the vote came down and politely asked them to please consider this. They have a long and positive history with unions and workers in Germany and for that company to align itself with the anti-union Republican led states is like a slap in the face to pro labor families in this country. Look closely at why our south remains poor and you will find that the undermining of the union and the unequal relationship between the low paid workers and the corporate owners has decimated the middle class in this country. I will no longer purchase or recommend buying any VW product until I see these companies give the pro labor states and workers a chance to show just how good they can be for VW. When companies hear from us, maybe they listen. It's certainly worth the time and effort and I do it to honor my father and his union brothers and sisters.

[Enthusiast]

259. Hey, I like your post!

Nice!

[ck4829]

103. Conservative victory, right?

[RickFromMN]

104. I expected this. Corker and others aren't negotiating with wimpy democrats.

The Germans will not negotiate. They will run the company the way they wish or else.

The Chattanooga plant is finished. More work for Mexico.

[B Calm]

111. They are more likely to go to Canada because they have national health care.

[nadinbrzezinski]

136. So does Mexico, but their warning

I read, more like we are going to expand to the US Industrial North, or West.

[elleng]

128. Good.

[neverforget]

142. I see there are a couple of anti-union folks in this thread

[VanillaRhapsody]

153. Hard to believe isn't it?

[neverforget]

157. On a Democratic website too. Since the Democratic Party supports

unions and the right to organize, I wonder how they feel about that?

Democrats believe that the right to organize and collectively bargain is a fundamental American value; every American should have a voice on the job and a chance to negotiate for a fair day's pay after a hard day's work. We will continue to fight for the right of all workers to organize and join a union. Unions helped build the greatest middle class the world has ever known. Their work resulted in the 40-hour workweek and weekends, paid leave and pensions, the minimum wage and health insurance, and Social Security and Medicare—the cornerstones of middle class security. We will fight for labor laws that provide a fair process for workers to choose union representation, that facilitate the collective bargaining process, and that strengthen remedies for violations of the law. We will fight for collective bargaining rights for police officers, nurses, firefighters, emergency medical technicians, teachers, and other public sector workers—jobs that are a proven path to the middle class for millions of Americans. We will continue to vigorously oppose "Right to Work" and "paycheck protection" efforts, and so-called "Save our Secret Ballot" measures whenever they are proposed.
http://www.democrats.org/democratic-national-platform

[VanillaRhapsody]

159. I am going to say YOU can't be Anti-Union...good grief its practically the ONLY thing all

Dems across the spectrum believe in...

[neverforget]

164. Well apparently not as is shown in this thread.

BTW I belong to the UTU just like my dad did.

http://utu.org/

[VanillaRhapsody]

168. Great....I have never been a member. As I stated above...I was married to someone who joined the

IBEW. I got to see what it was like on both sides of the fence.....Our lives were greatly improved by Union participation...that is a FACT.

[Union Scribe]

185. +1

Sickening to see that shit here. You did a great job combating their lame nonsense.

[VanillaRhapsody]

186. Why thank you....

I was seriously in shock......

[thucythucy]

240. I thank you also.

Your posts here are a genuine community service.

Best wishes.

[krawhitham]

198. No, their are a lot of rethugs on this site

And every once in a while they out themselves

[B Calm]

189. trolls on Koch brothers payroll?

[Enthusiast]

265. Infiltrators and sockpuppets.

Trolls on the Koch Brothers payroll.

They have so much money to spend that they can afford to pay people for trying to steer the discussion on an internet site. And their employees are out there by the tens of thousands. Just my take.

[geardaddy]

285. Yep.

They almost seem like the same person.

[neverforget]

326. There are a lot of conservative ideas/talking points appearing on here lately

Very sad to see such tripe being catapulted on a Democratic website

[Enthusiast]

327. I'm glad so many of us recognize it as such.

[Enthusiast]

263. On a Democratic web site, yet.

Last edited Fri Feb 21, 2014, 05:53 AM - Edit history (1)

Unfuckingbelievable.

[neverforget]

272. And proud of the union hate too

I got mine attitude to boot.

[wysi]

305. +1

The anti-union posters should consider more carefully which discussion board they should be posting at.

[Zambero]

177. But, But.....

Didn't Senator Corker assure the good folks of Tennessee that a pro-union vote yield disastrous results, namely no more new assembly plants for that neck of the woods? Oops, sounds like at least one manufacturer sees things a bit differently.

[liberal N proud]

201. Take that Corker

You reap what you sow

[Boom Sound 416]

215. That and the Passat isn't selling

[get the red out]

230. How's that "right to work" working out?

Conservatives make regular hypocrites look bad, they want to leave corporations alone to do business but threaten to muck up a large corporation doing business in a whole section of the country with their interference. They say they want people employed but don't want any employers coming in and offering jobs if they might respect workers rights. If a person can't find work then they are lazy, but heaven forbid a company that doesn't toe the right-wing line come in and offer work!

[Kingofalldems]

242. Republicans want obedient workers who take what the

owners decide to pay them and keep their mouths shut.

[fleabiscuit]

256. I can not disagree with your sentiment.

However, I think it is important to state that it is the "organizing" that they don't want. There has been a systematic effort backed by untold $millions to make and keep the public and workers be and feel isolated. When people organize in any manner and start to realize there are many who think and feel the same way as they do they start feeling empowered. They talk, and start figuring out how to get out from under the thumb. They don't vote for the political hacks of the 1%. Organizing of any kind is dangerous for them.

[bkanderson76]

260. Let The Sorry Assholes Of Chattanooga Build Tricycles for $6.50 an hour...Move On

[Dopers_Greed]

266. Job cremators

EOM

[geardaddy]

287. Love that

Gotta steal that phrase!

[riversedge]

276. good news.

[Cleita]

281. There was a guy from Lansing, Michigan on the TV yesterday inviting

VW to come on up and there is the UAW waiting there and skilled workers. Sounds like a win, win to me.

[ReRe]

302. Instant karma in Corker/Republican Party's face.

I am beginning to think we need to just let the South go. Let them be "The Confederate States of America", and the rest of the states be "The United States of America."

[Swede Atlanta]

303. Interesting..........

You see German companies do not equate employee organization as a threat. While they certainly may have been the case many years ago, today unions are brought into a cooperative model where the welfare of the company and the workers is much more tightly linked than in this country.

Labor is recognized as an ESSENTIAL part of providing goods and services, not incidental to them.

Wall Street and the culture of the MBAs is that anything that prevent unlimited, unbridled growth and profit, regardless of morality or morality is the enemy.

And that is why there has been so much tension between "management" and labor in this country.

Unions are also to blame for not recognizing the need to be part of the solution and not the problem but I have seen little to suggest management wanted their help. They just wanted the cheapest labor they could get, period.

[spanone]

308. and still, corker will get re-elected

[DirkGently]

317. Go VW!

[Bluenorthwest]

333. Go VW! Due to all the anti Union bullshit flying in this thread I wanted to say I'm a Union member

since my very early 20's, happily and proudly. Union makes things better for everyone.