So the neo-Nazis have seized power in Ukraine

[malaise]

Thanks neo-cons - thanks Europe, thanks America - this won't end well.

[kelliekat44]

1. It appearts that ultra RW factions have successfully overthrown democratically elected governments

all over the world and now working hard n Venezuela. Coups by any other name are still coups. Shades of Iran.

[malaise]

2. The neo-cons are having a field day

Bush and Cheney should have been tried for war crimes ages ago.

[AAO]

3. Damn Obama!

[malaise]

4. Wasn't that Nancy's job in the House n/t

[Cali_Democrat]

6. No. It would have been the Attorney General, Eric Holder

who reports to Obama.

[AAO]

137. Yes, - I was just imitating a teabagger response to anything going wrong.

[okaawhatever]

25. The neo-cons were hired by Yunokovych's government. Anyone with half a brain has already

learned that much. this is just more anti-American bullshit.

[freshwest]

91. John McCain met with the leaders of Svoboda:

U.S. Senator John McCain, right, meets Ukrainian opposition leaders Arseniy Yatsenyuk, left, and Oleh Tyahnybok in Kiev, Ukraine, Saturday, Dec. 14, 2013.
photo and caption courtesy of Business Insider

Svoboda: The rise of Ukraine's ultra-nationalists

...Take Oleh Tyahnybok, the rather rugged leader of Svboda, which dominates the Western-most provinces of Ukraine. Western media has described him as one of the three most important opposition leaders and he's met foreign dignitaries like John McCain. He is also a potentially dangerous man. In one infamous speech in 2004, Tyahinybok lashed out at the "Moscow-Jewish mafia" and the "kikes". In 2005, he wrote an open letter to the President asking him to halt the "criminal activities" of "organised Jewry". It should be noted that he insists he is not anti-Semitic, simply "pro-Ukrainian" and that he has won prosecutions against him for ethnic hatred.

But Svboda has form. It is a member of the Alliance of European National Movements, along with France's National Front, the British National Party and Hungary's Jobbik. Its policies include taking farm land into national ownership and giving to people to hold on a "hereditry basis". No one who was not born in Ukraine can become a citizen; outsiders cannot adopt Ukrainian children. In 2005, one of the party's deputies founding the Joseph Goebbels Political Research Center. It was later renamed after a German conservative revolutionary. That particular deputy described the Holocaust as "a bright episode in European civilisation" which "strongly warms the hearts of the Palestinian population." The best defence against Jewish corruption is childbearing Ukrainians. Women carry the societal and racial morality … the 300 ovulations of every Ukrainian woman, as well as the 1,500 ejaculations of every Ukrainian man are the same national treasures as, say, energy resources or deposits of iron, coal or oil.

Some of Svboda supporters are people who believe that the German invasion of Ukraine in the 1940s was not an occupation but a liberation from "Jewish Bolshevism". Needless to say, they also don't like gay people.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100260665/ukraine-the-opposition-arent-all-angels-some-are-neo-nazis/

They sound worse than our own Tealiban! That's from the UK Telegraph, which I guess is a good source. There are links to follow in the article:

http://blogs.reuters.com/john-lloyd/2014/02/21/ukraines-important-next-move/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20824693

I'm not sure what is going on there, just still gatthering data without filtering it as much as possible to get a feel of it and sort out the facts separate from the confusion that emotions might arouse. I'm thinking of the people of this region, and not wanting a war to get going that is going to destabilize Europe and then keep going.

What do you think of that?

I read they also want a nuke. It all sounds damned scary to me.

[okaawhatever]

103. Of course the article doesn't mention that Arseniy Yatsenyuk is the member of the largest political

party in Ukraine. He's a member of the Fatherland party (which isn't a reference to Nazi Germany). The Fatherland party was the second largest party until a few of the members of the President's party (Party of Nations) withdrew from the party. Typical sensationalist garbage. Yes, the Svboda is an ultra national far right party and yes they're one of the groups of protesters. They currently have 7% of the seats in parliament. None of the interim leaders are from that party. Three groups make up the opposition, Fatherland, the Punch party of the boxer and Svboda. The Russian propaganda comes in when they try to make it seem like the entire opposition is the Svboda party.

McCain met with them. They are legitimate members of Parliament and the opposition, and nobody has told McCain he isn't the Secretary of State, McCain's former campaign manager and other neo-con groups worked with President Yanukovich.

[freshwest]

140. I thought my links were good, Telegraph, BBC and Reutiers. But what are neo-cons and people that are

not part of the Department of State doing running around over there?

I don't think he's on a mission for Obama or Kerry, and I don't trust 'Bomb, Bomb, Bomb Iran' Johnny for a minute.

I still think Svoboda is the most hateful group around and should not be tolerated. That is some sick stuff there, in line with the most rabid of what we have here, all mixed into one stinking heap. It concerns me that private interests such as McCain represents, Palin or whoever, are propagandizing the American people on this. They want a war!

It's not like Europe doesn't know where this will lead, so they have reasons to be upset, even a bit sensationalist with the history there.

I googled and followed a lot of links last night, saw some of the videos made by Svoboda, and this same meme that you and others say is being pushed by the Russians, all appeared on many sites at once that I don't care for anymore, like Counterpunch, etc.

The headline on all of them reads almost exactly the same:

Ukraine and the Rebirth of Fascism in Europe

Right Sector The Great Ukrainian Reconquista

Euromaidan: The Dark Shadows Of The Far-Right In Ukraine Protests

Svoboda: The rise of Ukraine's ultra-nationalists

Ukraine protests are no longer just about Europe

Those are BBC, Guardian and the Telegraph. I haven't seen anything from the Daily Mail, which I've been told is a sensationalist source.

I don't know how this is being covered in American media. I can see why some people are worried about what is going on there considering what is going on in our country. I don't watch television, as it's all RW trash to me.

As far as the Russians are concerned, this may be their propaganda, but they aren't doing anything but standing to the side in this affair, despite the loss of revenue they had.

Are you saying the Russians are fooling the press in Britain?

Just trying to get all the data I can. I don't follow the CT that says the evil USA in charge of the world. We obviously are not and I don't care for the kind of byzantine plotting that some ascribe to us. We aren't that clever.

And I admit that I cannot grasp the parliamentary system of government. It's so fluid as to be almost fleeting and that seems unstable to me. But then all I've lived with our system, which is too inflexible now.

The one thing I do know, is that with extremists, they really will pull out all the stops and do not change their minds. That these people are even in the government, is very disturbing. We don't elect people like that here except Teabaggers who would like to see it all burn.

[madinmaryland]

5. What the hell are you talking about??

[Tommy_Carcetti]

13. Well, apparently neo-nazis have seized control in Ukraine or something.

Or neo-cons.

Or maybe just Neo from The Matrix


So, um, yeah.

[Common Sense Party]

37. I heard it was a carton of 'Neopolitan' ice cream. (yes, sic, I know.) nt

[freshwest]

89. I'm always ready to mix neo-cons with neo-nazis and neo-feudalists like Rand. All the same to me.

[KoKo]

7. Who Coulda Known? The Syria Playbook?

Victoria Nuland...married to one of the Kagan NeoCons?

Still...I think that the sly fox Putin has a few cards up his sleeve. Remember the Russian Gas Pipeline through Ukraine (Northern border) he can TURN OFF if things get too out of control for his liking.

There's a theory I saw posted on comment thread on the "Coup" at another site that suggested Putin might trade off his involvement in Syria to keep Ukraine United if USA pushes back to hard on Ukraine. IOWDS that Syria is less important to Putin than Ukraine and he'd leave Syria mess in USA's lap while he keeps what's dearest to Russia.

I'm not sure if that theory makes any sense...but, I thought it interesting as a trade off (behind the scenes) in a way.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

8. The protestors (led by that prime minister lady that didn't get re-elected)

were a bunch of nutjobs and didn't care what they did, as long as they overthrew the govt. Bunch of nuts.

Here's what I read:

What happened to Ukraine on February 21, 2014 is essentially a criminal coup committed by the radical armed anarchists and Ukrainian Nazis who have been enjoying a comprehensive financial, military, diplomatic and even religious support and instigation from the Western power groups for the last two decades.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-neo-nazi-criminal-state-looming/5370436

[malaise]

9. Someone was feeding the frenzy

THese people are crazy. Yep Putin will shit off the gas for those in the north. It's going to get ugly.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

14. Yes, that prime minister that didn't get re-elected. Yulia whatever-her-name and her fans nt

[maxsolomon]

34. Sweet Jesus, Yulia Timoshenko, not whats-her-name

I didn't even have to Google that. She's only the most recognizable figure in eastern European politics in the last 10 years.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

38. Yes, she. And her fans. They propelled this, with the aid of the EU and the U.S.

And now the Neo-Nazis are having a ball.

[maxsolomon]

43. She propelled it from a prison hospital with an injured back?

Did you see her speak to the Maidan crowds from a wheelchair?

Did you see the women holding signs that said "we're happy for you, Yulia, now go to hell"?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

45. Of course. How do leaders propel things? By duplicating themselves into thousands? nt

[freshwest]

139. I saw her speak from the wheelchair after her supporters got her out of jail/prison.

What about these signs you're talking about?

Is that what they said or are you kidding?

It was dark I didn't see any.

[maxsolomon]

143. it was in a report i read in the NYT

no time to link.

[freshwest]

144. This is a better video than the one I saw last night:

This one agrees with that NYT piece you mentioned:

This is much like the one saw last night, which wasn't translated:

Anyway, she may or may not be the next president or PM or whatever they call it there. It seems partly right and partly wrong that she was put in prison by the man who beat her in an election. I just don't like anything about Svododa. Not saying she is part of that group either, but they give me the creeps. Really.

Thanks for your comment.

[freshwest]

90. I don't care for her, but some sources say she and Putin used to work well together.

You say she wan't re-elected?

I thought she was jailed by the last guy that just took off.

And I read that she was only a little crooked than he was.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

135. She wasn't re-elected. Then there was an issue of corruption.

It's a difficult situation to get a grip on, because the good and bad guys are all mixed up together and are behaving as if they were tripping on acid or something.

[Adrahil]

16. Yes, much better if they just do whatever Uncle Pootie tells him.

I mean, WTF?

[malaise]

19. Please translate n/t

[Adrahil]

23. Fixed. Stupid iPad.

[Throd]

17. Radical anarchists collaborating with Neo-Nazis?

With the support of the Freemasons no doubt.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

18. A few started it, then the real nuts (fascists) got involved, and the rest is history and hell nt

[Throd]

27. Perhaps Ukrainians would rather have a functioning democracy versus Putin's vassal state.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

30. Instead, they have Neo-Nazi chaos. nt

[okaawhatever]

20. Perhaps you should try a more reliable source for your info. Any of the reputable international news

services, statements by experts on Ukraine in universities around the world. Of course, they will pretty much tell you what you read is a pack of lies, but if you want to know the truth than you have to be willing to accept it.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

35. Alternet, perhaps?

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/us-backing-neo-nazis-ukraine

Svoboda’s openly pro-Nazi politics have not deterred Senator John McCain from addressing a EuroMaidan rally alongside Tyahnybok, nor did it prevent Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland from enjoying a friendly meeting with the Svoboda leader this February. Eager to fend off accusations of anti-Semitism, the Svoboda leader recently hosted the Israeli Ambassador to Ukraine. “I would like to ask Israelis to also respect our patriotic feelings,” Tyahnybok has remarked. “Probably each party in the [Israeli] Knesset is nationalist. With God’s help, let it be this way for us too.”

In a leaked phone conversation with Geoffrey Pyatt, the US ambassador to Ukraine, Nuland revealed her wish for Tyahnybok to remain “on the outside,” but to consult with the US’s replacement for Yanukovich, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, “four times a week.” At a December 5, 2013 US-Ukraine Foundation Conference, Nuland boasted that the US had invested $5 billion to "build democratic skills and institutions" in Ukraine, though she did not offer any details.

[malaise]

42. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Shakes head

[polly7]

48. +1. nt.

[okaawhatever]

49. I don't consider Alternet a reliable source. Yes the ultra nationalists group is participating in

the protest. Anyone with half a brain has bothered to learn who is protesting. There is more than one party. The ultra nationalists are legitimate members of their parliament. Legitimate government figures, but they only hold about 10% of the seats.

Why do you choose to ignore the reality of the situation? Why do you choose to ignore the facts and promote the Russian agenda and Putin's lies? Why won't you give the party breakdown by percentage? Why are you ignoring the Fatherland party that is now the majority or the punch party? Why ignore all of those things to promote your own agenda? Is the truth too much for you? Why do you insist on lying about who the majority of protesters are?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

54. No? What do you consider a reliable source? Any source that agrees with your premise? nt

[okaawhatever]

107. No, Reuters, The Associated Press, New York Times, The Economist................nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

134. The corporate entities whose intent is to hide what's really going? nt

[El_Johns]

86. They're fascists. And they're in coalition with two center-right parties, making them the majority

opposition bloc.

That's not one of "Putin's lies".

[okaawhatever]

108. Svoboda is not the majority. They aren't the majority in the opposition even. The majority of the

opposition is the Fatherland party. Sorry to burst your bubble. If you want to worship Putin and believe his bullshit go ahead. I'll deal with facts and reality.

[El_Johns]

112. The coalition that includes Svobada is the majority. As was perfectly obvious/

[El_Johns]

114. You don't consider Alternet a reliable source -- why is that? You think it's in bed with Putin?

[Quantess]

132. Alternet is an often unreliable / iffy source.

I admit I do not know what's really going on in Ukraine, and I am not addressing that part.

But as for Alternet, they post quite a lot of questionable articles, as well as a lot of really great articles. Alternet's articles are of mixed quality.

[okaawhatever]

152. Articles on Alternet are only as good as their authors. The article in reference doesn't provide

sources or context for it's claims. It begins by claiming that white supremacist banners and confederate flags are in Kiev city hall. The video links to someone attempting to put up a white supremacist banner but not being able to do so. I can't tell if someone is telling him not to do it or what. There is also one confederate flag, not plural, and flags of about 10 countries including Canada and England.

Next they print this statement:

“There are lots of Nationalists here, including Nazis,” the anti-fascist continued. “They came from all over Ukraine, and they make up about 30% of protesters.”

They don't state who on the ground talked to the individual, where the quote came from, how the writer received the quote, zilch. That's poor journalism, especially when you're talking about something so sensitive. If there were a reporter on the ground who interviewed the guy, they should explain. If they copied the info from another source, they should credit it. Nothing. Just throw out the inflammatory info with zero back up for the claim.

The article goes on in the same vein. It's inflammatory and tends to overstate the role of the Svoboda party in the protest and in the parliament. Yes, they're part of the protesters. Yes, they're ultra nationalist, No they aren't in charge of Parliament or the temporary government and yes the current PTB like Victoria Nuland have already stated she wanted them "on the outside".

Too much rhetoric, not enough to back it up. Unreliable IMO.

[freshwest]

159. Good points there! What is Alternet's angle in promoting Russian PR, though?

I thought Alternet was pretty goo during the Bush era, but have read them less and less after they seemed to be going CT. I will read CT to see what the current memes are, but when I see the direction some takes, I suspect they're banking on their readers being fearful and gullible.

[rhett o rick]

146. If you dont consider Alternet a reliable source, what do you consider? CNN? ABC? nm

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

53. According the the Alternet article....

About 30% of the protesters are extreme nationalists or neo-Nazi's. In the 2010 parliamentary elections, Svoboda (the main hard right party) received 10% of the vote.

So look at it this way. If Canada had installed a corrupt, pro-Canadian regime and patriotic Americans overthrew that government, you can bet that about 30% of the people at the barricades would be Republicans.

And so this this thread I say, meh.

Edit to add:

Headline - "Western Powers Back Neo-Nazi Coup in Ukraine
Source - Lyndon LaRouche

....so there's that.

[El_Johns]

83. But would 30% be neo-Nazis?

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

105. The article pretty much lumped them together

My take is that 30% of Americans are obnoxious assholes, so I'm not going to hold Ukrainians to a higher standard.

It was a massive street protest. It's not like they put up signs saying "Liberals Only Beyond This Point."

This whole business could turn out badly, to be sure. But the cats are taking up all the room on my fainting couch right now, so I think I'll just wait and see.

[okaawhatever]

109. The alternet article has zero credibility and I think your pointing out that they're saying the same

thing as Lyndon LaRouche goes a long way.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

110. I generally like Alternet...

And what they're reporting is not what the OP is suggesting. AlterNet is hyping the presence of Svoboda, to be sure -- and I'm not saying their participation in both the riots and in any government coalition is not cause for concern -- but the Neo-Nazi's did not just take over Ukraine.

[El_Johns]

122. because you say so?

[freshwest]

153. Why would western powers back any kind of Nazi? FFS, WW2! And we're accused by the RWNJs of

backing the World Zionist Global Bankster© Cabal.

Does not compute!

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

155. Because sometimes you don't get the luxury of picking your friends...(nt)

[freshwest]

161. I don't see the analogy between Ukrainians fighting it out and Americans invading

Canada, which would not be patriotic, but an aggressive and uncalled for manuever on the part of the USA.

Not that it wouldn't be a nice idea to some people - look at all that real estate. But the Russians are not going to invade Ukraine and seem to be ready to carry on with their own interests without Ukraine.

If that is what your Americans invading Canada analogy is about. And I can't stand the LaRouchies. Major ickiness.

[rhett o rick]

10. For those that dream of revolution to throw off the chains of oppression, take notice.

When you tear down a government, usually another authoritarian government takes it's place, not democracy.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

51. Kafka...

"Every revolution evaporates and leaves behind only the slime of a new bureaucracy."

[Coyotl]

127. Those who confuse democracy and chains of oppression deserve what they get.

Notice how western "civilization" is only just climbing out of the morass of a dark age that lasted centuries when you cheer on anarchy destroying a stable nation.

[rhett o rick]

141. You must be responding to the wrong post. "when you cheer on anarchy destroying a stable nation."

In my post I was discouraging violent revolution as a means of achieving democracy. How in the world would you get out of that that I am "cheer(ing) on anarchy"?

And what "stable nation" are you referring to? The Ukraine?

[malaise]

148. This

and you teach others that they too can tear down their own governments.

[rhett o rick]

149. We wish to tear down all governments that we dont have in our pocket and replace them with

a dictator that is beholden to us. Saddam Husein forgot who his daddy was and had to pay the price.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

11. ..........

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Yes. Yes. You are exactly correct. Neo-Nazis have seized power in Ukraine.

[freshwest]

150. Isn't that second pic The Cat from Red Dwarf? Loved that series. n/t

[quinnox]

12. Great, but I saw some duers cheering this on

So whatever happens, I'm sure they will be pleased with the result.

Oy, Neo-nazis?

[okaawhatever]

22. No, some of us have bothered to learn the truth. I suggest you do the same. nt

[quinnox]

26. I just did a google search "neo-nazis" and "ukraine" and got tons of hits

try it yourself.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

29. I just did a google search of "neo-nazis" and "Democratic Underground."

I also got a ton of hits.

I did a google search of "neo-nazis" and "Chuggo" and came up with a surprising 134 hits.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

36. "Neo-nazis" and "Olive Garden":

107,000 hits.

[Throd]

47. Neo-Nazis + Diapers = 8,570,000 hits

[okaawhatever]

50. Brilliant. I wonder what would happen if you did neo-Nazi and Republican party.........nt

[Dr. Strange]

71. Aw, c'mon fuckin' nazi!

Nothing whiter than mayonnaise!

[Tommy_Carcetti]

76. Well, he is a skinhead.

Or maybe just balding, I don't really know.

[Vinnie From Indy]

84. Neo-Nazi and Pepperoni Pizza

140,000 results on Google

[okaawhatever]

46. Just goes to show how hard Putin's propaganda machine is working. I noticed most of the claims about

neo-Nazis came from Russian papers. There is an ultra nationalist party participating in the protests but they aren't the majority. They currrently hold about 10% of the seats in parliament.

[Kurska]

63. Neo-nazis and African Traditional Music turns up nearly 2 million results.

Clearly the African Traditional music scene is absolutely crawling with Nazis.

[Kurska]

15. As a Jew, I find it incredibly offensive that you throw that term around with zero understanding. nt

[malaise]

24. I select my own words

and not because I'm the grand daughter of a Jew

[Kurska]

28. Opposing Russian Hegemony doesn't make you a neo-nazi

Words have meaning.

[Throd]

32. For some around here it does.

And pointing out that Nicolas Maduro is an incompetent asswipe means you have a giant Pinochet poster on your bedroom wall.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

55. What term? Neo-Nazi? Is there another term that should be used perhaps? nt

[Kurska]

59. Yeah this guy is totally a Neo-Nazi what was I thinking

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitali_Klitschko

Here he is studying the Jews at a Hanukkah party he was invited too. Clearly he is trying to learn their weaknesses.

http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/12/21/heavyweight-champ-vitali-klitschko-removes-gloves-for-menorah-lighting/

[Sarah Ibarruri]

65. Um, no, he's not. But there are Neo-Nazis going crazy on the streets of Ukraine...

Seldom, seldom, has there been an overthrow of an elected govt. that taking its place has not been a fascist govt. An exception might be France, but usually the govt. that follows is a type of fascism.

[Kurska]

68. Please find me a single credibly link detailing how the Neo-Nazis have seized control in the Ukraine

http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/12/21/heavyweight-champ-vitali-klitschko-removes-gloves-for-menorah-lighting/

This man is most likely to be the next Ukrainian President.

Are you saying he is some kind of secret fascist?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

69. I've posted two already, but your side doesn't like my selections. nt

[Kurska]

72. Yeah Ukraine just absolutely crawlin with Nazis right now.

Throwing up swastikas all over the place. Turning the Ukrainian parliament into the reichstag.

I seriously have to wonder what planet some poster here are living on.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

73. And you're right in the thick of that wonderful wonderland, right? That's how you know so much

(NOT)

[Scootaloo]

78. Well, your selections don't tell the truth.

1) They establish that a hard-right party (Svoboda) is on board with the protests.

2) Svoboda's a real piece of work, but calling it "neo-nazi" is a bit of hyperbole.

3) That this small party is included among the rubric of "the opposition" does not characterize the opposition as a whole. That's the kind of logic that says all people participating in occupy protests are rapists because of some rapes that occurred.

And before you have a frothing fit, I'm not on a "side" - I have no idea what to make of these protests one way or another. But your assertion here is as silly as a thread from a few days ago asserting that Justin Bieber's haircut made him a hitlerjugend.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

79. Actually, many people agree with me. The net is filled with this info., so why would you think

that I would believe your side?

[Scootaloo]

82. Truth is not a popularity contest

And any poster here on DU should know sensationalism when they see it.

Nazis - neo or otherwise - have not "seized power" in Ukraine. Point of fact to the best of my knowdge, there's something of a power vacuum in that country as we speak.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

136. No, you're right about that. But truth is somewhere, right? And who has it? Is it you?

Is it me? Is it someone else?

[Scootaloo]

147. I dunno, but it's not the people screaming that Ukraine has been taken over by neo-nazis

[Sarah Ibarruri]

154. Say you, claiming that *you* are the correct one. Didn't work. Try again. nt

[EmilyAnne]

87. Yulia Tymoshenko was accused of being a secret Jew in the last election.

So anti-Semitic attacks were made...on a neo-nazi?


http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/campaign-gets-dirty-leaflets-smear-tymoshenko-as-j-58739.html

[Warren Stupidity]

56. As a Jew, you should be aware that the Ukranian collaboraters helped massacre Ukranian Jews by

tens of thousands.

[Kurska]

57. I wasn't aware Nazism was genetically transferred n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

58. You should be aware that there is a long history fascist sympathy in the region.

And yes anti Semitism is passed down through the generations. It is however a learned behavior.

[Kurska]

61. I'm actually a minor scholar on the eastern front of world war II

I'm well aware.

What I don't understand is how you're using what happened many decades ago as evidence that political revolution in the Ukraine is just a Neo-nazi front.

http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/12/21/heavyweight-champ-vitali-klitschko-removes-gloves-for-menorah-lighting/

Here is one of their major leaders at a Hanukkah party, clearly he is just studying their weaknesses.

[Warren Stupidity]

64. so had I said "all of the ukranian opposition are neo nazis" you might have a point.

Do you want to claim that none of the political groups who overthrew the government are fascists?

[Kurska]

66. Um you are aware you're posting in a thread that claims the Neo-nazis seized control?

So your contention is actually that some of the Ukrainian opposition are Nazis? Well no shit buddy, some of the people opposed to NSA spying are Nazis. That doesn't say a single thing about the opposition as a whole though.

[Warren Stupidity]

67. Again, is it your claimn that there are no fascist groups in the opposition?

[Kurska]

70. There are Neo-Nazis opposed to smoking.

That doesn't make the anti-smoking movement Neo-nazi.

Instead of lugging those goal posts around, why don't you just put it in a back of a truck. It would make moving them a lot easier.

[Warren Stupidity]

95. So you agree that there are neo-nazi groups in the opposition.

Your playing the "outraged at the suggestion 'cause I'm Jewish" bit was dishonest. I'm Jewish. There are extreme Ukrainian nationalist fascist organizations in the opposition. Time will tell where the "new Ukraine" is going. Most likely it will not be outright 1930's style fascism, but ethnic cleansing of the Russian population in the east is a serious possibility.

[Scootaloo]

80. Are you a white American?

I've got some bad news for you, to the tune of 29 million...

[Warren Stupidity]

96. Yeah well I don't deny we have a sordid history and a problematic present.

[frwrfpos]

75. I find your lack of understanding history in Ukraine offensive

Perhaps you should educate yourself about the Anti Semitic parties that have taken over the government of Ukraine

[Kurska]

77. You mean like this guy?

http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/12/21/heavyweight-champ-vitali-klitschko-removes-gloves-for-menorah-lighting/

[Scootaloo]

85. As others have noted, probably referring the Svoboda party

Some members of which are kinda nasty dudes.

"Taken over the government of Ukraine" is... well, bullshit, as the party holds 36 seats in the Rada - out of 450. And their presidential candidate fielded in 2012 received 1.43% of the vote (which probably put him behind Donald Duck. Eastern Europe loves voting for that crazy fowl)

[frwrfpos]

21. recommend

and the right will loudly clap and cheer. A small and extremely violent faction in Ukraine has seized an entire government determined to become economic puppets of the US and the EU.

Through the IMF and EU austerity, Ukrainians will soon get a good taste of economic violence. Too bad the people of Ukraine will suffer and the new EU/US puppet government will be getting military hardware/$$.

And this is cheered right here without a bat of an eyelash.

I guess the propaganda is so complete that the left truly has been decimated, not only in this country, but coming literally right now to countries around the world.

[TwilightGardener]

31. Can I inquire as to your source for this? Because while I know that there are some

such groups floating around or even represented in their government, I hadn't read anything to suggest that they are now controlling it.

[brooklynite]

33. Peace-loving Government troops firing on the "neo-Nazis'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ahjaTulXPGQ

[applegrove]

39. Why should the Ukraine not be in trade zones with both the EU and Russia? I'm sure that

can be done. That being said I don't trust Putin and am glad he and his oligarchs wealth is in western stock markets....that will keep them honest.

[freshwest]

145. I'm not sure why the two trade markets can't work together. They have to iron this out. Russia's gas

is only passing through Ukraine, to go to Ukrainians and the EU markets. AFAIK, Ukraine hasn't been getting their own from their own land. Perhaps Russia would like to bypass Ukrainian politicians, but they can't stop using those pipelines. It's just the way the geography is there. They should be able to make a deal even if they hate each other.

[go west young man]

158. Sudstream...

comes online in 2015 through Bulgaria giving Russia a route for oil bypassing Ukraine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Stream It will become worse for Ukrainians without the pipeline. Russia will no longer require their services and will most likely charge them full price.

[freshwest]

160. Thank you, that was very informative and I checked out Gasprom as well. I try to take such factors

into account when reading the news put out by anyone. There are relations between nations that lie beneath the surface.

They make alliances appear to be mysterious and contradict stated ideology, but when you see them clearly, the way that nations and people are aligned makes more sense.

[Zorra]

40. Is the U.S. Backing Neo-Nazis in Ukraine?

Disclaimer: I don't personally have the slightest clue about what is really going on in the Ukraine.

February 24, 2014 |

As the Euromaidan protests in the Ukrainian capitol of Kiev culminated this week, displays of open fascism and neo-Nazi extremism became too glaring to ignore. Since demonstrators filled the downtown square to battle Ukrainian riot police and demand the ouster of the corruption-stained, pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovich, it has been filled with far-right streetfighting men pledging to defend their country’s ethnic purity.

White supremacist banners and Confederate flags were draped inside Kiev’s occupied City Hall, and demonstrators have hoisted Nazi SS and white power symbols over a toppled memorial to V.I. Lenin. After Yanukovich fled his palatial estate by helicopter, EuroMaidan protesters destroyed a memorial to Ukrainians who died battling German occupation during World War II. Sieg heil salutes and the Nazi Wolfsangel symbol have become an increasingly common site in Maidan Square, and neo-Nazi forces have established “autonomous zones” in and around Kiev.

An Anarchist group called AntiFascist Union Ukraine attempted to join the Euromaidan demonstrations but found it difficult to avoid threats of violence and imprecations from the gangs of neo-Nazis roving the square. “They called the Anarchists things like Jews, blacks, Communists,” one of its members said. “There weren’t even any Communists, that was just an insult.”

“There are lots of Nationalists here, including Nazis,” the anti-fascist continued. “They came from all over Ukraine, and they make up about 30% of protesters.”

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/us-backing-neo-nazis-ukraine

[jeff47]

41. Um.....no. You're extremely wrong.

There's a neo-Nazi party in Ukraine. They have 8% of the parliament.

None of the players in the current events belong to that party.

But Pootie thanks you for catapulting the propaganda.

[bigwillq]

44. Wrong (nt)

[Brickbat]

52. ROFLMAO.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. Source

[Kurska]

62. Pravda comrade

Where else?

[malaise]

92. Several sources

Try the Guardian, Alternet and many others.

[nadinbrzezinski]

133. Thanks

It just strikes me that less than 10% in Parliament of far right fascists does not a right wing take over make. By that logic the US is in the depths of a fascist take over, 15-20% of the House tea party caucus is well TP, and we are having pretty fascist laws at the state level. Just point to AZ and WV for example.

Yes, the street fighters were from Right Wing fascist groups, but once elections come and the Sboda wins 30%+ of seats in Parliament and controls the executive I will join you.

Some folks are in a panic due to the echoes of WWII. Well, to those fools I would point out France, where the RW has a tad more of a grasp of power, Greece, which has the same situation, and the unlearned lesson of the 1920s, austerity policies are leading to this rise in RW fascist policies.

They keep planting that flag though.

But thanks, I read those sources and thought to myself, these folks are in a panic and are about to re fight WW II, well it is not yet WW II, not even close to mid 1930s, not even the Reichstag burning. That danger has been under the surface since 1945. The nationalist parties all over Europe did not die. But the austerity parties are the ones pulling that raw scab.

[Bad Thoughts]

99. Radio Armenia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Yerevan_jokes

[kwassa]

74. You apparently don't read anything.

How else would you come up with this incredibly bizarre thesis?

[tritsofme]

81. Wow, I only belatedly realized this thread wasn't satire.

DU: Where support of President Obama is toxic, but two-bit authoritarian regimes in Ukraine and Venezuela are celebrated.

Part of me holds out hope that this is self-parody.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

88. The stupid is strong with many here

[stevenleser]

113. They want to discredit the uprising so they invent reasons why we shouldn't like it.

I am surprised to see this kind of thing here.

[go west young man]

162. Thankfully....your incessant insults...

keep everybody inline. Curious if you ever post anything other than denigrating remarks?

[justiceischeap]

93. As I understand it, the interim President is a member of the All-Ukrainian Union "Fatherland" party

which, on reading about it, sounds like a mix of the conservative republican party in the US and socialism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Ukrainian_Union_%22Fatherland%22

Ideology and stances

Batkivshchyna has an eclectic ideology;[76] the party stated it advocates "European values" and "a high level of living for people".[77][78]

The party wants to simplify procedures for opening and closing of businesses.[79] It also wants to "establish a new minimum wage and will raise wages and pensions and lower taxes" and it wants to limit the kinds of taxes to seven and simplify the methods of payment and "minimise the possibility of tax evasion through offshore companies".[79] It also wants to create "public non-profit construction company that will build affordable housing".[79]

The party wants a campaign against corruption.[79] It advocates an "anti-corruption lustration" whereby state officials' expenses and property values are compared with their tax declarations.[80] If there is a discrepancy, the officials will be criminally charged and banned from public office.[80] It wants to establish a "National Anti-Corruption Bureau" modeled on the FBI (an idea that has circulated in Ukraine since the late 1990s).[80] The party believes that what has been "stolen" through corrupt tenders and insider privatizations should be returned to the state budget.[80] Organizing election fraud will be criminally liable[80] and voting in parliament for absent lawmakers punishable.[80]

According to the party, only citizens of Ukraine will have the right to private ownership of land, but "high concentration of land in one hand" will not be allowed.[79]

The party sees Ukrainian membership in the European Union (EU) as a strategic goal[78][79] and wants to "cancel humiliating visa regimes" and a visa-free travel for Ukrainians to the EU.[79] It would like to see "a mutually beneficial and equitable agreement on the establishment of free trade with Russia".[79] In June 2013 the parties parliamentary faction voted for the denunciation of the 2010 Ukrainian–Russian Naval Base for Natural Gas treaty[nb 1].[82] The parties 2012 elction program did not mention NATO.[80]

The party wants to prosecute "Law enforcement involved in political repression"[80] and to impeach current Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych and his “anti-people regime” to "return Ukraine to the path of European integration".[80]

The party tries to reverse the Azarov Government policy of raising the status of the Russian language.[77]

The party is in favor of party-list proportional representation elections with open lists.[79][80][83] And Citizens' Initiative's after 50, 000 signatures are collected.[79] The party also wants to empower local governance.[79]

Government grants should be awarded to graduates who successfully passed testing for studies at Ukrainian universities.[79]

The basis of Ukraine's health system will be mandatory health insertion and the gradual development of voluntary health insurance by employers.[79]

The party wants to introduce jury trials into the Ukrainian law system and wants to "depoliticise" the process of appointment of judges.[79] It also wants an independent judiciary that will increase the role of the Supreme Court of Ukraine.[80] The Constitutional Court of Ukraine, "which has compromised itself with decisions that were ordered (by the Yanukovych administration)," should be liquidated.[80]

The criminal code be "Europeanized" and law enforcement brought under civil control.[80]

The party wants to improve human rights in Ukraine.[78][79]

The party believes that the Holodomor was genocide of the Ukrainian nation.[78]

[muriel_volestrangler]

94. Facts. Acting president/PM, finance minister, interior minister - none are from Svoboda

http://www.dw.de/eu-russia-wrangle-over-ukraines-new-government/a-17454406

Oleksander Turchinov (acting president/PM): Fatherland party (details in #93)

acting interior minister, Arsen Avaknov: Fatherland party - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsen_Avakov_%28politician%29

Acting finance minister Yuri Kolobov - no party; appointed finance minister by Yanukovych in 2012, after being first deputy head of the National Bank of Ukraine: http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/96328.html

"the neo-Nazis have seized power in Ukraine" is complete bullshit, malaise. You are being fooled by reading crap.

[cali]

97. bzzt. fail. simplistic and uniformed. and I'm someone who has posted

about the right wing groups and parties involved in the protests.

do some homework once in a while. it's worth it.

[Warren Stupidity]

98. Svoboda

Yeah nothing to see here, move along.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

101. Doesn't change the fact they're not even close to the majority party in the country.

No one's denying Svoboda's there. It's just that they aren't the one's actually in charge, like the OP claims

[Warren Stupidity]

102. "No one's denying Svoboda's there"

Right, just ridiculing the idea.

If it makes you feel good to think that the far right is not a major factor in the opposition, whatever.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

104. They're not a major factor in the opposition. And they certainly haven't "seized power".

None of the people at the top are Svoboda. They don't even control a double digit percentage in the Rada.

Get your head out of your ass.

[El_Johns]

115. They're in a formal coalition with two centre right parties and the coalition IS the majority

[Tommy_Carcetti]

117. Right, but they're not even the bulk of the coalition.

Let alone the bulk of the Rada.

They are not the ruling party. They are not the ones in charge.

[El_Johns]

119. They're in formal coalition and have been since 2012.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

123. Do you understand parliamentary politics?

The fact that parties may be in a coalition together does not necessarily mean they share the same ideology.

[El_Johns]

125. I understand very well. It does mean that there's quid pro quo, however.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

131. But the insinuation that fascists and neo-nazis are leading the shots is just not documented. nt

[El_Johns]

156. We don't really know who's calling the shots, do we?

[stevenleser]

129. I'm forced to conclude that person does not understand parliamentary politics.

Their comments to you about opposition party dynamics makes it clear. That person also does not seem to understand that if someone from the opposition is suddenly put in charge of Parliament, the entire ballgame is about to be changed and what used to constitute the opposition is meaningless. Everything is about to be redrawn.

[okaawhatever]

106. That is not Svoboda:

The Social-National Party of Ukraine changed its name to the All-Ukrainian Union "Svoboda" in February 2004 with the arrival of Oleh Tyahnybok as party leader.[2] It moved to moderate its image by replacing the "I + N" ("Idea Natsii" ukr. "idea of a nation&quot Wolfsangel logo with a three-fingered hand reminiscent of the 'Tryzub' pro-independence gesture of the late 1980s and by pushing out neo-Nazi and other radical groups from the party.[37]

In 2004, Tyahnybok was expelled from the Our Ukraine parliamentary faction for a speech calling for Ukrainians to fight against a "Muscovite-Jewish mafia"[38] The speech was delivered at the grave-site of a commander of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army where Tyahnybok praised its struggle against "Moskaly", a derogatory term for either Russians[39] or pan-Russian nationalists;[40][41] Germans; and "Zhydy", an archaic but controversial term for Jews in Ukraine due to it being a slur when used in the Russian language

[OilemFirchen]

111. Yankees

[Warren Stupidity]

142. I love it when the argument goes from "there are no nazis, that's just stupid" to

"oh those Nazis aren't so bad".

Yum. Yes indeed.

[stevenleser]

100. Posts 93 and 94 for the win. The interim President is not from Svoboda. NeoNazis are not in charge

They (Svoboda) do not have the support of the people of either side.

[El_Johns]

116. They're in a formal political coalition with the party of the interim president and Tymoshenko's

party.

[stevenleser]

121. There are several big problems with your assertion.

#1 - They were a small member of an opposition in a parliamentary system. If you are familiar with politics in such a system, if you are a party with members elected to the parliament, you either join with the ruling coalition or you join with the opposition.

#2 - When the order in a parliamentary system changes via an election or the kind of upheaval we have now, all of that changes and is in flux. Thus, your use of the present tense is incorrect, particularly when you yourself acknowledge that there is an interim President from a party that was in the opposition. That itself signifies that a massive redrawing of the ruling coalition and opposition is about to happen. There cannot be a minority ruling coalition in most parliaments.

#3 - The interim President under Ukraine's constitution has a hobbled role and is basically just there to keep things running until the next election. So, once again, any interim coalition is just a placeholder. The people of Ukraine will get to elect whomever they want as soon as elections can be set up.

[El_Johns]

124. My assertion is a fact. It's also a fact that 'pro-west' sections of Ukraine are also the sections

where svoboda is strongest.

As of 2011, Svoboda has factions in eight of Ukraine's 25 regional councils, and in three of those Svoboda is the biggest faction.[54].

[stevenleser]

126. No, it's not. It WAS a fact. Everything is changing now. nt

[El_Johns]

128. What are the 'new' facts?

[stevenleser]

130. I reiterate Carcetti's question to you above. Do you understand Parliamentary politics?

Do you understand what it means when a leader from what had been an opposition party is put in charge of parliament?

If you understand Parliamentary politics, you shouldn't even be asking that question.

[El_Johns]

157. I believe I already answered that question.

But you guys haven't yet told me the new facts.

[Lars39]

165. He's a Baptist according to the Southern Baptist Convention.

http://m.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=42084

Was poking around their site to see their reaction of Brewer's veto when I stumbled across their statement. Ill winds generally always follow SBC's endorsements, imo.

[TBF]

118. The communist view is that this

may well end with Ukraine splitting in two. I opined a bit in Socialist Democrats this morning. I don't think it will be WWIII - they will split because it's a natural split with the west being pro-EU, the east and south being pro-Russian.

[El_Johns]

120. The west is also the stronghold of Svoboda.

[bullwinkle428]

138. Only in John McCain's wet dreams.

[lostincalifornia]

151. If that is true, and Ukraine can't push them out, I do not think Russia will just sit by

[Tommy_Carcetti]

163. Well it's not actually true.

But I don't know if that will dissuade Russia from acting one way or another.

[lostincalifornia]

164. I was skeptical, and didn't think it was true, thanks. Also, unfortunately, looking at what Putin

is doing, it looks as though the so-called exercises the Russians are doing is ominous