Morning Joe crew is saying we can't raise Minimum Wage to $10/hour tomorrow

[CreekDog]

including the Democratic candidate for Lt. Governor in South Carolina, Nicole Wallace (works with Sarah Palin as VP nominee, can't vote for her, doesn't say anything), and of course Joe.

the Minimum Wage proposals don't have it going up to $10.10/hour immediately, but in steps.

these people are creating a straw man of the actual proposal so they can oppose it, and from the Democrat on today's panel, that is horrendous.


(Mika to her credit, didn't get involved in that part of the discussion, but was rather unequivocal in support of raising it and castigated the others for opposing it --pointedly asking Joe if he thought $7.25 was high enough)

[yeoman6987]

1. Everytime the minimum wage goes up

Everyone says the same thing…we are doomed…it will be a disaster….And every time, we have done just fine. It is like watching a boring repeat of an average TV show.

[Warren Stupidity]

2. Fine. I'll see their 10 and raise it to 15.

[melm00se]

3. From one perspective

they are correct.

If a business' labor costs jump almost 40% (or more as Warren Stupidity states) overnight, these types of businesses (who, in some cases, operate on thin profit margins) could be damaged to the point where they fail.

If, OTOH, the minimum wage increases in stages (say 12.5% per jump), some of these businesses will be able to adapt and restructure in such a way that will allow them to absorb this labor cost increase so that they come out of the increase period healthy.

[avebury]

4. We need to stop the corporate welfare

which allows some of the larger companies to bank more profits while paying their workers poverty wages because the tax payers will pick up the tab for the public assistance that the workers need to just survive. Corporate greed should not come at the cost of keeping their own workers in poverty.

[melm00se]

5. While there are corporations

who do pay minimum wage and act as you describe, there are many smaller businesses (these are the ones to which I refer) who are owned by individuals who, if hit by a 40% jump in their labor costs, would probably fold in short order.

[seveneyes]

6. Quite true

Any law that requires a large increase in minimum wage, should have a minimum number of employees restriction, or other safeguards.

[melm00se]

7. things like that

open up a whole can of worms and can create some seriously unintended consequences.

There was a thread here a couple of days ago that discussed a two tier minimum wage system based upon age. In that thread, it was pointed out that companies would hire (as much as possible) workers who fit in the lower income tier and then terminate them when they passed into the higher minimum wage bracket.

I can see something similar happening as companies structure their operations to get under the employee number requirements.

For example: let's say that the the line is drawn at 20 employees. Business A employs 18 and wants to expand (say open another location). if the company goes over 20 (which a second location would do) their labor costs would jump 40% (using, for arguments sake, the $7.25/hr to $10.10/hour minimum wage proposal). I can see the owner of Business A creating a second and separate (on paper) business (call it Business B) all to avoid the maximum employee threshold.

While it can be said "well, we'll just close that loophole!", this is just one example. I am certain that there are extremely creative people out there who can propose and execute strategies to keep their labor costs down.

[CreekDog]

9. you're trolling the issue here, no better than Joe himself

accepting the proposition that there's a plan to raise the minimum wage from 7.25 to 10.10 overnight.

cut the crap.

[Gormy Cuss]

12. A teen minimum wage can have other constraints

like type of job where it's acceptable, time of day and operation of machinery restrictions, etc. which would mitigate the incentive to churn through only teen employees rather than have them solely as part of the mix.

I'm not in favor of a teen subminimum, just pointing out how to circumvent companies trying to use that ruse.

[CreekDog]

13. a minimum wage is not a bad thing

it's not something people need to be protected from

[seveneyes]

14. Of course not

But if I'm making 15/hr and my two workers are making 10/hr each, then the min wage goes to 15/hr, I'm not paying them 15/hr and only getting 5/hr myself for very long.

[CreekDog]

15. so you fire one and reduce the business' income by 1/3rd?

how does that help?

[seveneyes]

19. You are not following

Three employees, me @15, two others @ 10. That's a total of 35 per hour to go around. If the min becomes 15, then I only get 5 per hour. No hours cut, no firing and only my income is cut by 10 per hour because they now get 15 each. My business dies shortly afterward because I die of starvation. No winners.

How does that help?

[CreekDog]

20. in how many years will it take you to starve to death?

when exactly would the raise to $15/hour happen that you'd starve to death?

[seveneyes]

21. Immediately

And the starving was not really serious...the dog would eat me first because I could not afford to feed him.

[CreekDog]

22. where is the proposal for the immediate $15/hour minimum wage?

has Obama proposed that?

how long would it take to reach $15/hour?

[seveneyes]

23. No idea, not my point

My original response was a confirmation that there can be special cases. Not sure what road you are on.

[CreekDog]

24. yes, if your hypothetical example is bullshit, then it's not relevant

if there's no example of a $5/hour increase in the minimum wage and no prospect of such an increase, then basing one's decision upon a hypothetical using that as an example is also bullshit.

[seveneyes]

25. bullshit exists until it doesn't

Reality doesn't exist until it happens. Very much like the bullshit gun statistic debates.

[CreekDog]

26. basically our argument is because you're a conservative

and when you aren't being conservative on the minimum wage, you're being conservative when it comes to opposing gun control.

wasting our time.

[progressoid]

18. The Miller-Harkin proposal is to be phased in.

The legislation would phase in the minimum wage increase from today's $7.25 an hour to $8.20 in the first year, then to $9.15 the year after and to $10.10 in the third year. Thereafter, it would be indexed to inflation

[CTyankee]

8. that SC guy was being hypocritical. He was against the min. wage going to $10.10 all at once when

he know DAMN WELL that isn't the plan immediately...it is phased in over several years. I feel sorry for the guy in that he has to stoop to hypocrisy and out and out distortion. And he calls himself a Dem. I was thoroughly disgusted...

[CreekDog]

10. and that's the other problem --thinking that you can get elected lying about the president and party

i'm not saying one has to be 100% unified, but if one thinks they are being self serving by running as a D, then they actually try to harm the D's to get elected, they are harming themselves, ultimately.

[KamaAina]

11. Well, we can't, at least not here in San Jose

because we already did it the first of the year. And believe it or not, the sky has not fallen. To my knowledge, no businesses have left town, not even the ones who squawked about doing so while trying to sink the ballot measure.

[bullwinkle428]

16. Joe & Mika hit the fainting couch, stressing about how much more they'll

have to start paying their respective "staffs"!

[CreekDog]

17. the part i watched, Mika was supporting the increase

in fact, she seemed incredulous that someone could think the present 7.25/hour is enough.