how are they going to know?? how are these business owners, etc, going to know who is gay?

[niyad]

are members of the lgbtq community going to have to register, and wear the double triangle on their clothing? or do they think their gaydar is so highly tuned that they can "tell"?? I go out with my friends, some of whom are gay, some are not--we are a pretty mixed (strange??) group. how exactly would that work? because, as bte pointed out in another thread about his mother, I would probably be the one going across the counter if one of my friends were refused service. of course, if that insane piece of hate legislation passes, I will not set foot in az--not even for the quartzite powwow!

has the southern poverty law center added the arizona and georgia legislatures to their list of hate groups yet?

[treestar]

1. true it would have to be they think it is self enforcing

or that their stereotypes will work.

Really it is just a stance hoping to attract bigots to their business. They may not really intend to refuse service to anyone - they just hope to gain customers from amongst the bigoted.

[Zambero]

2. "Proof of heterosexuality" certificates? "Are you gay" questionaires?

"Papers, please". Or, "hold it right there, I have a few questions for you two to answer first".
The likes of Bill Maher could probably have a bit of fun with this stuff!

[niyad]

3. can you just hear a geoge carlin riff on this insanity?

[niyad]

5. I can see it now--an entire new job-creating industry devoted to producing the triangles,

sewing them on, the creation and printing of the certificates, the investigations needed to certify, and the gatekeepers. who knew that the az lege was so forward-thinking??

[Skidmore]

35. Not much different than the yellow stars in Germany during WWII.

[MineralMan]

4. I think this is all ginned up because of the certainty that

marriage equality will become a national reality. That, and Republican candidates wanting to assure their constituents that they do, indeed, loathe and fear LGBT people. It is a legislative election year, after all.

Pre-election posturing is common for the right wingers. Personally, I expect Jan Brewer to veto this bill, on economic grounds, but those legislators who supported it get to tell their creepy constituents, "See, I'm looking out for your irrational fear of "teh gay," so be sure to vote for me in November."

I'm not so sure about Georgia. There, it might take a Federal Judge to put a stop to this nonsense.

[niyad]

7. the fact that they feel comfortable doing this--and getting more and more vocal about their hatred,

is what worries me. just like the hatred for women is not even remotely being hidden these days. they no longer feel the need to pretend even in the slightest.

[MineralMan]

8. It worries me, too. Somehow, though, I feel like

this is the last gasp of a dying mentality in the United States. It's not going to go away in one sweeping change, but I think it's going to go away everywhere, eventually. There will still be those who hate irrationally, but their numbers won't be large enough to dictate policy or laws at some point.

The morons who won't sell a wedding cake or allow an LGBT couple to have a reception in their facility are becoming fewer and fewer in number as time passes. The right-wingers and fundamentalist religious folks are trying desperately to continue their bigotry and ignorance, but things are shifting pretty rapidly today. Pockets of bigotry will continue to exist in places like Kansas and Northern Georgia, along with other places, and right-wingers will continue to push their hatred, but their time is short for that, I believe.

Arizona's a good example. Although the right wing is still winning elections there, the demographics of that state are changing, too, as they are everywhere. It's a last ditch effort we're seeing now. Soon it will have failed everywhere, I'm sure.

For marriage equality, were just one Supreme Court decision away from all marriages having to be recognized in every state, even if that state still manages to disallow people to marry in that state. And Federal Judges are ruling frequently that states can't prohibit marriage equality just because people don't approve of it.

I think we're on the verge. But I think we need to act strongly in 2014 and 2016, and then beyond that, to get younger voters and others who have failed to vote in the past registered and to the polls. If we can do that, the change will accelerate, and this bigotry and hatred won't have a chance to become law.

GOTV 2014 and Beyond!

[FLyellowdog]

38. Excellent!

[LynneSin]

6. I have met people who had what I perceived were LGBT stereotypes...

And they turned out to be straight as could be.

We talk about how we have 'gaydar' and that gaydar is based on perceptions that are assumed if you're gay you must dress too neatly or talk too high pitched or have fussy mannerisms. Heck I had someone thought I was a lesbian because I drove a Suburu and had a mug with a rainbow on it (the mug was from the 2007 Dark Side of the Moon concert by Roger Waters of Pink Floyd). I mean according to gaydar Michael Sams should be straight because that's what manly men do - play football.

In the end there really isn't any stereotype out there that says - 'This person is gay' unless of course the person in question comes out says 'I'm Gay (lesbian, Tran, Bi, etc etc etc).

So in the end how do we really know anyone is gay? Which means the law in Arizona would be a giant fail since it would be up to the business owners to decide who is or isn't gay and clearly they is not 100% way of knowing who is gay unless the gay people wore a label that says 'yes I'm gay'. And we know how forcing a group of people in society worked out (aka Nazi Germany). If the Arizona law passed is that what they would have to rely on to ensure that only the gay people would be denied services.

In the end it's all bullshit. But since it seems the law isn't going to pass everyone will forget about it and go about their business and the people who passed these laws will be forgiven and it'll all be forgotten. That's the real bullshit what is happening.

[RKP5637]

11. And many many people are not 100% straight or 100% gay, it's not a light switch! Many

people are a bit of both, they just don't talk about it. This is what happens when people vote into office those unfit for public office, those trying to push their inadequacies and phobias in life onto others.

I wonder what their threshold will be, if they think one is 10% gay will that be OK? Maybe if they think one is not more that 50% gay that will be OK? Will one be able to stand their ground if someone thinks they are gay? Will the threatened defense work? Will gays in AZ need to resort to Pink Pistols for protection?

And what about the macho straight guy that kicks the shit out of the clerk that accuses him of being gay, because the clerk thought he was too macho!

[LynneSin]

22. I think in general everyone is bisexual - whether one defines themself as gay or straight

In the end it is about love and to find love I think it's not going to matter the sex of the person but the quality of that love. I define myself as straight but I have never ruled out the possibility that I could be in a relationship with a woman if the love was there. I guess that would define me as slightly but non-tested bisexual (so far everything I have done is straight - just haven't ruled it out).

[RKP5637]

25. And that, is a very mature way of looking at all of this!

[ChazII]

32. Kyrsten Sinema is the Representative from AZ

for my district. She is the first openly bisexual person elected to the U.S. Congress. Not all folks in AZ are a** holes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krysten_Sinema

Link is for those who like proof.

[pipi_k]

23. Yeah, the "gaydar"...

My second husband had quite a few mannerisms that, in this country, would be considered "feminine", but in Europe, would not look very far out of place.

Like the way he held a cigarette...the way he crossed his legs.

So people tended to assume he had "teh gay".

Which he most certainly did not.

[hfojvt]

37. many businesses are serving couples

wedding photographers, florists, bakeries, day cares, adoption agencies, etc.

Even, perhaps a bookstore.

When I owned my own new and used bookstore, I sorta figured that I had the absolute right to refuse to sell, stock, or order any material that I found objectionable. You could not, for example, come in to my bookstore and find a copy of "Atlas Shrugged".

One of my customers (and friends) asked me once. "Do you ever wonder why you don't have any Deepak Chopra?" Which I thought was a strange question. I didn't have any Deepak Chopra because I, as the person who selected what new books I would stock, had never ordered any of his books.

Not that it is an issue these days what with the online booksellers, but there probably were books that I would not even special order for people, although I only remember ONE case of that in my seven years of bad luck.

[RKP5637]

9. Can tattoos on the forehead be the next step? And, this assumes people are 100% straight or

gay? Do these people live under rocks? Many people are a bit of both!

This, is not about religious freedom, it's about creating a religious state! They are trying to turn Arizona into a Christian Taliban state. Any not seeing what's going on really need to take their blinders off and quit being used as stooges.

[niyad]

10. I keep thinking of "the handmaid's tale". for some reason, az came to mind while I was reading it

all those years ago.

[Adrahil]

12. God will tell them? GAYDAR?

The beauty of this law is that you make up any crap you like to discriminate.

[RKP5637]

27. Yes, I saw a pink triangle over their head as they walked into my store, it was a vision

sent from my god! The list is endless.

[MadrasT]

13. I was wondering the same thing.

Do they think they can tell just by looking at people?

What a bunch of bigoted jackasses these people are.

[niyad]

17. there was an episode of "all in the family" where there were two guys, one of whom was big, strong,

sort of cowboy type. the other was a quiet, shy, tall, thin guy with glasses. it was assumed that he was gay. guess who was? all in the family tackled some serious issues ( still remember with tears the "beverly" arc)--cannot believe we are still fighting these same battles all these DECADES later.

[RKP5637]

28. Yep, and that's what happens when the populace elects 7th graders into political office! And,

it's a poor reflection on the voters in the respective state!

[theHandpuppet]

14. I think all LGBTs and their allies

Should wear buttons, "Gay for the Day" just so the bigots can spot us from the get-go.

[niyad]

18. oh, I like that!! where can I order them??

[jsr]

15. Isn't there an app for that?

[niyad]

20. if not today--by tomorrow, surely!

[jsr]

26. Found one:

[niyad]

36. now all I need is a smart phone!

[Coyotl]

16. How about RF chips and scanners?

Wouldn't that create jobs for straight people?

[socialist_n_TN]

19. They can't define it, but they know it when they see it.......

I could see a law like this being used to discriminate against anybody the business owner wants to discriminate against. You're Latino? Well, you must be gay. Black? You must be gay. Intermarried? Gay. And so forth. Like SYG laws and murder, this would be a "Get out of jail free" card for bigots.

[BKH70041]

21. That's what I didn't get

The big retailers, eateries. etc.. aren't going to care; they just want your money.

Smaller retailers might decide to do so, but they can do that now. As a business owner, I don't have to do business with anyone of whom I don't want to do business. The burden of proof is on the individual who would come to my place of business and claim I was being discriminatory. Well good luck with that. I didn't refuse your business because you were A/B/C/D.. I did it because you were being disruptive/acting suspicious/using abusive language/didn't fit the criteria of my type of clientele, etc... "No, I wasn't and you're lying." Yeah, you were.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

24. I actually went out to Arizona to visit my best friend a while back.

Neither of us are gay. But we did spend a lot of time driving around, seeing some of the sights, ate at some restaurants together.

I seriously would have to wonder if we would have been denied service. I guess so long as we didn't discuss the latest Project Runway episode, we'd be okay.

[madaboutharry]

29. Exactly.

Even people who are gay themselves don't always know if someone else is gay. I have known gay people who have told me that they have met someone they were attracted to, but had no idea whether they were gay or not and had to ask other people who knew the person. What is so objectionable is the hiding behind "religion" as an excuse to be hateful and cruel.

[hfojvt]

30. How are LGBTQ people gonna know who is homophobic?

The law, as I understand it, is directed at businesses like photographers and bakeries. See, a photographer is approached by a couple to do pictures for their wedding.

In that case, it is pretty easy to determine which couples are gay. Unless Pat marries Pat or something.

Same thing with a bakery. Approached by a couple to do a wedding cake....it's pretty easy to tell whether Adam is marrying Eve or Steve.

My question is why would you want to force a homophobic businessperson to take your money? Why not instead patronize more tolerant businesspeople and their businesses?

[Gormy Cuss]

33. Because it's a public accommodation issue.

The only reason that states can allow this is that orientation is not a covered class under Federal discrimination law.
Before Federal law compelled businesses to set aside the personal/philosophical biases of their owners and employees, it was not only legal but common for Jews, African-Americans, the disabled, etc. to be denied service on those bases.

The law should be ADDING orientation as a protected class rather than allowing exceptions for bigots.

[hfojvt]

39. so if, for example,

the infamous Phelps family owned a photography business, would you want to patronize it? Would you want to finance your worst enemy?

Why not instead give your money to a business owned by somebody like me, who is more sympathetic to your cause?

I mean, normally we want to boycott people like the Koch billionaires.

The law and the market sorta provide a mechanism for this. Gay couple gets refused service by Photographer H, so they just give their money to Photographer T. And they get to tell all their straight friends that H stands for Homophobe and T stands for Tolerant. T gets the money and H goes to the poorhouse, or goes out of business.

Problem solved.

[Gormy Cuss]

40. The market can't solve the problem when the law ignores it.

That's one of the reasons we have public accommodation laws. LGBTers are a minority. The effect of all LGBTers boycotting a single business is likely to be insignificant unless LGBTers were already steady customers. In the case of wedding photographers, unlikely. Bakeries may lose business over refusal to make wedding cakes IF enough of their customers understand that the business is bigoted, but unless they have a big sign on the counter announcing the policy wouldn't be widely known and customers would still patronize the place because they weren't aware of their policy.

Organizing boycotts of individual businesses is like playing whack-a-mole. It's an endless task. Passing a law to prohibit the practice is much more efficient.

[BKH70041]

42. I agree

There's no law that can be written to prevent it from happening. If I'm a photographer or a cake maker and don't want to do work for someone I don't want to, then who's to stop me? I'd just call up the customer and say I'm going to have to cancel because of some personal issues which I have to deal with at that time. They have no right to demand I explain myself, nor does the State. I have a private life, sometimes things happen I have to address, and unfortunately that interferes with doing the photography/cake for this wedding.

[Bandit]

31. It covers way more than gay people

If you believe in abortion for instance, or even contraception. Maybe even if you are in a mixed race marriage, or hell maybe even if you are a Democrat/Liberal.

[geckosfeet]

34. This is of course another hole in thier "thinking process"

Anyone can say anything about anybody.

[Sunlei]

41. I will not set foot in az today because of their persecution of mexicians.

Or drive within 50 miles of the Mexican border (in any border state) because there are constant police stops intended to net any people they care to grab.

[niyad]

43. . .