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ProSense

(116,464 posts)
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 09:45 AM Mar 2014

Tell these 10 states: Don't let Medicaid take my house after I die

Tell these 10 states: Don't let Medicaid take my house after I die

Federal government doesn't like the idea but can't stop it

Thanks to the new health care law, millions more people now qualify for free health care under an expansion of the Medicaid program. Unfortunately, some of those people may end up having their homes seized by their state goverment after they die. Specifically, that risk applies to new Medicaid recipients 55 and older who live in 10 states: California, Colorado, Iowa, Massachusetts, Nevada, New Jersey, New York, North Dakota, Ohio, and Rhode Island.

Why? It goes back to an obscure federal law that allows states to pay themselves back for Medicaid benefits paid to some people after they die, drawing on the estates of those dead people. The law applies to everyone who gets Medicaid for nursing home care, but states have the option to extend it to all over-55 recipients of Medicaid—including, in the case of those 10 states, those taking advantage of the new expansion of benefits.

As the news of the threat of "estate recovery" has spread, some people are actually turning down Medicaid that they're entitled to. “We’ve heard of people having their children pay full premiums for private insurance because they want to leave their houses to their kids,” Michelle Lilienfeld, senior attorney with the nonprofit National Health Law Program, said...health advocates and state Medicaid agencies have been waiting for the federal government to issue “guidance” on whether it’s kosher for states to go after the estates of over-55 Medicaid expansion recipients. Finally the guidance has appeared—and changes nothing for the time being.

<...>

The one encouraging thing about the government’s guidance: if you’re getting expanded Medicaid, the state government can’t put a lien on your house while you're still alive, as it can for people whose nursing home bills are being paid by Medicaid. That means that once you’re off Medicaid and onto Medicare, and live in a state that’s still determined to take your house, you can get around it by signing it over to your children before you die.

- more -

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2014/02/can-medicaid-take-my-house-when-i-die/index.htm


Implementing Health Reform: Medicaid Asset Rules And The Affordable Care Act

by Timothy Jost Timothy Jost

<...>

From very early in the Medicaid program’s history, however, there has been a concern that people who could otherwise afford to pay for at least some long-term care services would voluntarily impoverish themselves, transferring assets to their children or to others to make themselves eligible for Medicaid. Congress and the states have therefore adopted laws and regulations to limit asset transfers by Medicaid recipients. These prohibitions were initially evaded through the use of trusts and other financial devices, resulting in the enactment of additional laws to bar these evasions.

<...>

The Affordable Care Act creates a new category of Medicaid recipients — adults with incomes under 133 percent of the poverty level. It also changes income and asset eligibility rules for parents, children, and pregnant women, who were already eligible for Medicaid. Eligibility for these categories of recipients is now calculated based on “modified adjusted gross income,” or MAGI. There are no asset requirements for persons who become eligible for Medicaid under MAGI rules. The question thus arises as to how existing rules regarding asset transfers, liens, estate recoveries, and post-eligibility income apply to persons eligible for Medicaid based on MAGI.... Although the federal and state law governing Medicaid liens and estate recoveries are primarily concerned with recipients who receive high-cost long-term care services, federal law that existed prior to the ACA allows states to recover from the estates of any Medicaid recipient age 55 or over for the cost of any Medicaid services, and a number of states have existing laws that would allow such recoveries. ACA opponents have been spreading the word that if people age 55 or over sign up for expansion Medicaid, the government will recover from their estate when they die. The Memorandum attempts to address these concerns.

<...>

Medicaid rules prohibit Medicaid coverage of LTSS for persons who have equity in a home that exceeds a certain value, which for 2014 is set at $543,000 (or, at a state’s option, at $814,000). Although, again, there are no asset restrictions on MAGI eligibility, the home equity requirement applies to eligibility for LTSS services, not for Medicaid, and thus applies to MAGI-eligible individuals who receive LTSS services.

Individuals who receive institutional and home and community-based LTSS services as traditional categorically- or medically-needy Medicaid recipients must generally spend all of their income on LTSS, except for a small personal needs allowance and funds necessary to maintain their spouse or family in the community, with Medicaid paying for the additional cost of the services. These post-eligibility treatment of income (PETI) rules do not explicitly apply to MAGI-eligible individuals. CMS recognizes, however, that it is inequitable to apply these rules to other Medicaid recipients but not MAGI individuals. It is contemplating rulemaking, therefore, to extend these rules to MAGI eligible individuals...most of the rules that apply to traditional Medicaid recipients with respect to LTSS (except for lien requirements) are likely to apply to MAGI-eligible individuals who receive LTSS. CMS intends, however, to take steps to avoid applying estate-recovery rules to MAGI-eligible individuals who do not receive LTSS to keep this from becoming a barrier to Medicaid expansion eligibility.

http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2014/02/24/implementing-health-reform-medicaid-asset-rules-and-the-affordable-care-act/
54 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Tell these 10 states: Don't let Medicaid take my house after I die (Original Post) ProSense Mar 2014 OP
k&r for exposure. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #1
Wow-- there are lots of "blue states" in that group Art_from_Ark Mar 2014 #2
The practice is abhorrent, but ProSense Mar 2014 #3
Maybe that's the idea. Brigid Mar 2014 #7
"Yuppy Law" rules. nt adirondacker Mar 2014 #52
Wow. Thank you for posting this. theHandpuppet Mar 2014 #4
You're welcome. n/t ProSense Mar 2014 #6
But doesn't this happen already newfie11 Mar 2014 #5
An owned residence is an asset like cash and must be used before Medicaid pays, yes. Gormy Cuss Mar 2014 #9
I don't know why it would YarnAddict Mar 2014 #12
It's because people want to be able to leave something for their children. Gormy Cuss Mar 2014 #13
My personal philosophy is YarnAddict Mar 2014 #15
At least make sure there is enough to pay for the funeral nobodyspecial Mar 2014 #31
That is something normal people like us... awoke_in_2003 Mar 2014 #48
This has been happening since the 80s. It was in answer to the practice of some rich people who jwirr Mar 2014 #14
I think it's been this way for years YarnAddict Mar 2014 #8
The difference here is that they aren't asked to spend down their asset. Gormy Cuss Mar 2014 #10
Understood. YarnAddict Mar 2014 #11
Living at home is less expensive than living in a nursing home. Then they pay for Medicaid after jwirr Mar 2014 #16
Yup, and that's the way it works. YarnAddict Mar 2014 #19
Yes. jwirr Mar 2014 #20
This isn't about nursing home residents. Moosepoop Mar 2014 #17
180 days in a nursing home is paid by Medicare. After that by your social security or by jwirr Mar 2014 #21
I didn't mean to imply that it did. Moosepoop Mar 2014 #22
Yea. Only the wealthy should be able to establish any form of inheritance for their children. adirondacker Mar 2014 #53
I think this happens in Missouri also WhiteTara Mar 2014 #18
every nursing home you look at asks immediately if they have a house. bettyellen Mar 2014 #23
Kick! n/t ProSense Mar 2014 #24
I am not understanding the objection. I am "land poor," meaning that I have little enough Mar 2014 #25
one problem is it is just one age group singled out questionseverything Mar 2014 #27
OK, don't sign up for Medicaid. Then, hospital and docs will take your house before you die. Hoyt Mar 2014 #26
Why should the taxpayers pay for your medicaid bills and not get reimbursed after kelly1mm Mar 2014 #28
I just don't ProSense Mar 2014 #29
By taking the asset to repay the taxpayers for the medicaid expenses paid out kelly1mm Mar 2014 #30
OK, a ProSense Mar 2014 #32
Yes to answer your question yeoman6987 Mar 2014 #33
Really? ProSense Mar 2014 #35
You are going further into your question yeoman6987 Mar 2014 #37
"We are not talking poor people here they owned a home." ProSense Mar 2014 #40
Ok you win the argument yeoman6987 Mar 2014 #43
Well, ProSense Mar 2014 #44
Thank You!!! adirondacker Mar 2014 #54
Yes, I would. Chan790 Mar 2014 #38
What ProSense Mar 2014 #41
Why do they get millions exempted in estate taxes? Chan790 Mar 2014 #45
Huh? ProSense Mar 2014 #46
Read. Chan790 Mar 2014 #47
Yes, I read that, and ProSense Mar 2014 #49
Regardless of precedent, I don't have an issue with it. Chan790 Mar 2014 #50
Do you think ProSense Mar 2014 #51
Yes. It is not their house. It is the person who passed house. If they had 200k in the bank kelly1mm Mar 2014 #34
The piece ProSense Mar 2014 #39
No, I would do not envision a single payer system doing that at all. That is not how any of the kelly1mm Mar 2014 #42
Yes. n/t Chan790 Mar 2014 #36

Art_from_Ark

(27,247 posts)
2. Wow-- there are lots of "blue states" in that group
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 09:52 AM
Mar 2014

In fact, with the exception of North Dakota, they are ALL "blue states".

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
3. The practice is abhorrent, but
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 09:56 AM
Mar 2014

as the piece indicates, a lot of poor Americans are being scared away from signing up for Medicaid because of misinformation.

newfie11

(8,159 posts)
5. But doesn't this happen already
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 10:22 AM
Mar 2014

If you are in a nursing home after 3 months it's my understanding you must pay the total cost per month.

If you do not have insurance for that then Medicaid takes over but you loose your home.
This is not new.

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
9. An owned residence is an asset like cash and must be used before Medicaid pays, yes.
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 11:24 AM
Mar 2014

What's new is that people who are 55 may qualify for Medicaid before selling the real estate, but ultimately the money must be paid by the estate.

It WILL have the effect of keeping some lower income individuals from applying for affordable care. It's not good.

 

YarnAddict

(1,850 posts)
12. I don't know why it would
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 11:39 AM
Mar 2014

It's not like they're being thrown out in the streets. They live in their homes until they can't anymore (or die) and then their Medicaid costs are reimbursed. If they make the choice to not apply for Medicaid simply because they want their children to inherit their house or other assets, well, too bad. It's not all that different from the Walton heirs.

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
13. It's because people want to be able to leave something for their children.
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 11:44 AM
Mar 2014

I'm sure you saw it/heard about it a lot with nursing home patients. It's not rational, it's emotional.

However, since this provision will make some 55+ eschew health insurance, if they get sick before Medicare kicks in they'll be getting care that is subsidized by everyone else to a greater degree. A really effective PR campaign may make a difference there.

 

YarnAddict

(1,850 posts)
15. My personal philosophy is
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 11:54 AM
Mar 2014

that if I die with $1.00 in my pocket, I will not have lived as well as I could have. My kids know it. They are on their own after I go toes up.

That's why I don't have a lot of empathy for anyone whose desire to leave something to their children trumps their own common sense regarding their own healthcare.

Heartless? Maybe. I just don't think we should subsidize some spoiled kids' desire to get $$$$$$$$$$ they didn't earn.

 

awoke_in_2003

(34,582 posts)
48. That is something normal people like us...
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 11:27 PM
Mar 2014

tell each other to make ourselves feel better. If you are a millionaire it is easy to leave money to your kids. But if you are a common man, and rack up big medical bills before you die, who pays them? At least if the family gets the home they can sell it to pay the bills off. This is just another way to screw the 95%.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
14. This has been happening since the 80s. It was in answer to the practice of some rich people who
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 11:53 AM
Mar 2014

gave their property away to their children in order to qualify for Medicaid. The government first lengthened to time one would have to a wait to get on Medicaid after disposing of ones property but the was not enough. So they added this provision. A Medicaid recipient would have to use their estate to pay some of the bills they had accrued.

The problem I see here is how this effects new recipients to Medicaid who did not have a choice considering the mandate to obtain insurance. By the way there are exceptions to the rule: the home is not taken if the spouse or a disabled or minor child is living in the home.

 

YarnAddict

(1,850 posts)
8. I think it's been this way for years
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 11:04 AM
Mar 2014

I worked for my county enrolling nursing home residents in Medicaid nearly 40 years ago. Back then, they had to "spend down" all their assets to $1500, which is what they could have for a burial fund.

It does make a lot of sense. Too often, people distribute their assets early, then expect the government to provide the entire cost of their care. In fact, a lot of law firms are specializing in "estate preservation." Very sleazy, IMHO.

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
10. The difference here is that they aren't asked to spend down their asset.
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 11:27 AM
Mar 2014

It's a lien against the estate. IOW, since they can still live independently they stay in their homes AND get Medicaid.

 

YarnAddict

(1,850 posts)
11. Understood.
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 11:36 AM
Mar 2014

This doesn't effect anyone's standard of living; it just means that their children/heirs can't inherit until the parents' Medicaid bill is paid. I don't have a problem with that.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
16. Living at home is less expensive than living in a nursing home. Then they pay for Medicaid after
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 11:57 AM
Mar 2014

they die.

 

YarnAddict

(1,850 posts)
19. Yup, and that's the way it works.
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 12:55 PM
Mar 2014

A skilled nursing facility is sometimes necessary, and that's what Medicaid is for, in that case.

Moosepoop

(1,920 posts)
17. This isn't about nursing home residents.
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 12:37 PM
Mar 2014

This is about Medicaid-eligible people aged 55 and up -- but not yet on Medicare -- being required to "pay back" ANY Medicaid expenses they incurred before they got old enough for Medicare if they happen to also own their house.

It's about them -- and ONLY them -- being at risk for "repayment" through the later taking of their homes, for GENERAL MEDICAID COVERAGE between the ages of 55 and later Medicare coverage.

The nursing home thing is a separate issue, except that the "rule" that allows the repayment of nursing home care through the taking of the home creates the possibility of that same thing now happening to people who receive Medicaid for the decade or so before Medicare kicks in. In the ten states in question, the "55+ but not yet retirement age" group can theoretically be forced to pay back their Medicaid coverage years after they've left the program and gone on to Medicare -- only because of their age group (which is below elderly) and because they own a home.

WILL those ten states actually do this to these people, just because they can? Hopefully not -- but the idea of it is being used to scare middle-aged people away from signing up for Medicaid even if their income makes them eligible for now. The "rule" or whatever it is needs to be fixed so that this is not a possibility in the first place.

Do you think that all Medicaid recipients should be made to pay back the costs of their medical care when their income goes up or if/when they die? Do you think that Medicaid should be on a "loan" basis for all, subject to repayment at a later date?

If not, do you now see the problem as it pertains to only one age group? Nobody else outside of nursing home patients has to "pay back" their Medicaid coverage. Only those 55+ and below retirement age, possibly, in 10 states. This is the problem.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
21. 180 days in a nursing home is paid by Medicare. After that by your social security or by
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 01:01 PM
Mar 2014

Medicaid if you are poor. Medicare does not pay for extended stays in the nursing home or foster homes etc.

Moosepoop

(1,920 posts)
22. I didn't mean to imply that it did.
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 01:25 PM
Mar 2014

My point to YarnAddict is that this isn't about the repayment of nursing home care for Medicaid recipients.

It's about the repayment requirement for ANY and all Medicaid coverage for a narrow age group.

That age group is over 55. Period. For many, Medicare will later cover them -- within a decade or so.

It's that time period in between subjects them to the possible loss of their homes to their states at their deaths.

Other than nursing home patients, no other group of people is subject to repayment of Medicaid expenses upon death.

They shouldn't be, either.





adirondacker

(2,921 posts)
53. Yea. Only the wealthy should be able to establish any form of inheritance for their children.
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 12:09 AM
Mar 2014

Trust funds are great for those that can afford it.

enough

(13,255 posts)
25. I am not understanding the objection. I am "land poor," meaning that I have little
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 07:56 PM
Mar 2014

money or savings, but I do have a house and land that I happen to love and live on and struggle to pay taxes on. I don't understand why, if Medicaid should take care of me when I need it (which would be for nursing home care because I am old and on Medicare for regular medical expenses), why would it be wrong for my assets (namely land and house) to go toward paying whatever Medicaid has payed for my care, after my death?

I don't feel that I have some god-given right to leave something to my children, or that my children have a right to inherit something from me. I hope that I can do that, but it is not the responsibility of society or the government to guarantee that for me. I do not feel that guaranteeing me the right to leave something to my children is something that the government should be involved in.

Maybe someone can clarify this for me?

questionseverything

(9,645 posts)
27. one problem is it is just one age group singled out
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 08:11 PM
Mar 2014

another is the rich receive tax breaks and farm subsidies and their estates are exempt up to 5 million bucks/10 million for a couple

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
26. OK, don't sign up for Medicaid. Then, hospital and docs will take your house before you die.
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 08:10 PM
Mar 2014

If you don't have huge health care expenditures, Medicaid won't seek restitution. If you do, and don't have Medicaid or other insurance, health care providers can come after your assets and put you on the streets. I'd sign up for Medicaid.

kelly1mm

(4,732 posts)
28. Why should the taxpayers pay for your medicaid bills and not get reimbursed after
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 08:52 PM
Mar 2014

you die just so you can leave an asset to your heirs? You (and your spouse) get to stay in the house for as long as either of you live but why should the taxpayers eat the bill so your kids get the assets?

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
29. I just don't
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 09:21 PM
Mar 2014

"Why should the taxpayers pay for your medicaid bills and not get reimbursed after you die just so you can leave an asset to your heirs?"

...see the point of beating down the poor. The current rule applies to those who use of long-term nursing home care. The problem is that states have the option to apply it to all recipients.

Still, how many Medicaid-eligible Americans have assets between $543,000 and $814,000?

It's good that people are bringing attention to this, and it's important that people have the facts.

The RW is using this as a scare tactic to dissuade poor Americans from signing up for the program.

kelly1mm

(4,732 posts)
30. By taking the asset to repay the taxpayers for the medicaid expenses paid out
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 09:29 PM
Mar 2014

after that person and their spouse die, you are not beating down the poor. They (the poor on Medicaid with the asset) are dead at that point. What you are doing, at most, is taking the asset to pay for care given to the person, instead of letting the heirs have it. Heirs who may or may not be poor.

Would it make a difference if this was say 200k in cash instead of a house? You do know that the ACA Medicaid expansion got rid of the asset test for qualification, right? Would it then be OK for the heirs to get the 200k in cash? Is this just a hang up about the house itself? I am not getting it.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
32. OK, a
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 09:39 PM
Mar 2014

"By taking the asset to repay the taxpayers for the medicaid expenses paid out after that person and their spouse die, you are not beating down the poor. They (the poor on Medicaid with the asset) are dead at that point. What you are doing, at most, is taking the asset to pay for care given to the person, instead of letting the heirs have it. Heirs who may or may not be poor. "

...person and his/her spouse dies, leaving behind two children 18 and 21 who still live at home. Should their home be snatched to pay medical bills?




 

yeoman6987

(14,449 posts)
33. Yes to answer your question
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 10:09 PM
Mar 2014

...person and his/her spouse dies, leaving behind two children 18 and 21 who still live at home. Should their home be snatched to pay medical bills?




They are an adult. They can either buy the house from the government (whatever is owed to the Medicaid) or they can move out. It is not their home. Medicaid if we want to continue it must have some money coming in to sustain it or it will likely go away. I think this way is fair. The two owners get to keep the house until they die. It could be worse and the house could be sold immediately after the first spouse dies. I think this is extremely fair.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
35. Really?
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 10:14 PM
Mar 2014
Yes to answer your question...person and his/her spouse dies, leaving behind two children 18 and 21 who still live at home. Should their home be snatched to pay medical bills?

They are an adult. They can either buy the house from the government (whatever is owed to the Medicaid) or they can move out. It is not their home. Medicaid if we want to continue it must have some money coming in to sustain it or it will likely go away. I think this way is fair. The two owners get to keep the house until they die. It could be worse and the house could be sold immediately after the first spouse dies. I think this is extremely fair.

...you'd kick an 18 year old out of a home that his parents is likely paid for or inherited because s/he's an "adult"?

Also, let me ask:

Are you against the value restrictions? Should this apply to every Medicaid recipient?

Do you envision a single-payer system in which the poor have to pay back the government for the care they receive?



 

yeoman6987

(14,449 posts)
37. You are going further into your question
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 10:23 PM
Mar 2014

You never mentioned value restrictions or single payer or anything else. You asked a question and I answered it. We are not talking poor people here they owned a home. They took medicaid and knew the rules and now they are paying back the use of medicaid. I don't think that is mean especially since the two spouses get to live in it until they both die. The adult children can live in the home if they pay back whatever the lean is.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
40. "We are not talking poor people here they owned a home."
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 10:38 PM
Mar 2014

You can't be serious?

People own homes under a lot of conditions. Some inherit homes. Some home are low in value.

Do you think the people who own Habitat homes are not "poor"?



 

yeoman6987

(14,449 posts)
43. Ok you win the argument
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 10:57 PM
Mar 2014

Only because you keep bringing in all these other scenarios. Regardless I stand by the loss of the home after the two primary people use medicaid. I am in the majority and you seem to be in the minority on DU tonight.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
44. Well,
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 11:06 PM
Mar 2014

"Ok you win the argument

Only because you keep bringing in all these other scenarios. Regardless I stand by the loss of the home after the two primary people use medicaid. I am in the majority and you seem to be in the minority on DU tonight."

...I'm not interested in a "win," and I am fine with you believing you're in the "majority."

My point still stands: It's unfair to milk the poor in death. Taking from some of the most vulnerable Americans: the poor who ended life addressing long-term health care needs seems callous and sick to me.

Why would it be so horrible to allow some assets (a home) to be passed onto their children? It could be one more attempt to help end the cycle of poverty.

adirondacker

(2,921 posts)
54. Thank You!!!
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 01:18 AM
Mar 2014

I had an interesting discussion with an honest (Not easy to locate) estate attorney regarding my mother's estate ($125,000 from the sale of her house). She stated that she was baffled by the number of wealthy clients that came through her door to set up trust funds and would remark on how they are tired of subsidizing "free" nursing home stays for the poor and middle class.

I ended up caretaking my mom for 7 years and took a serious hit in my career at a critical time, nevermind dealing with the stress and Grief which was paramount. Financially, I would have been better off letting the state have the $125,000 and "moving on" with my career. It would have paid for 1 year's worth of nursing care, if that. So, to those that are "all in" for taking estates, should families be compensated if they save the state as sole caretakers for anything in excess for the estate value? Let's be fair here, because I Know their are plenty of wealthy families gaming the system with attorneys and trusts.

It may be worth pointing out that Cheney flew back from Afghanistan to break a tie vote for the Deficit Reduction Act of 2005...
This bill literally screwed the middle class and poor in a Huge way out of any inheritance.

"The Senate's version passed after a tie-breaking vote was cast by Vice President Dick Cheney. The bill passed the chamber with all Democrats and five Republicans voting against the bill.[2] The House version passed by a vote of 217-215, with all Democrats, fourteen Republicans, and one Independent voting against.[3] The Senate bill was signed by President George W. Bush on February 8, 2006.[4]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deficit_Reduction_Act_of_2005

Amazing to see the number of people that side with Cheney here.

 

Chan790

(20,176 posts)
38. Yes, I would.
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 10:26 PM
Mar 2014

The house belonged to the deceased. They are now deceased. It's legitimate and reasonable for the state to clawback expenses against the estate; doing anything else ultimately results in a bankrupt government healthcare system.

No. It should apply to those on Medicaid as a bridge to Medicare. If it wasn't only 55-and-over, I'd be advocating rolling it to 55-and-over.

Yes, in some sense. I envision a system where the cost of public healthcare is the end of cross-generational wealth, either through clawback or through high inheritance-tax rates without an income exemption.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
41. What
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 10:42 PM
Mar 2014

"Yes, in some sense. I envision a system where the cost of public healthcare is the end of cross-generational wealth, either through clawback or through high inheritance-tax rates without an income exemption."

...utter nonsense. The very first thing that should happen before the Goverment starts milking the poor is to end every friggin loophole and tax exemptions for the wealthy.

Why do they get millions exempted in estate taxes, but the familiy of poor Americans who die should lose everything?




 

Chan790

(20,176 posts)
45. Why do they get millions exempted in estate taxes?
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 11:11 PM
Mar 2014

You clearly missed the part where there are no exemptions anymore on inheritance taxes.

They don't get to exempt shit.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
46. Huh?
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 11:17 PM
Mar 2014
Why do they get millions exempted in estate taxes?

You clearly missed the part where there are no exemptions anymore on inheritance taxes.

They don't get to exempt shit.


Estate Tax
http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Estate-Tax
 

Chan790

(20,176 posts)
47. Read.
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 11:22 PM
Mar 2014
"Me: Yes, in some sense. I envision a system where the cost of public healthcare is the end of cross-generational wealth, either through clawback or through high inheritance-tax rates without an income exemption."


No more exemption. Taxed from dollar $1.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
49. Yes, I read that, and
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 11:35 PM
Mar 2014

"I envision a system where the cost of public healthcare is the end of cross-generational wealth, either through clawback or through high inheritance-tax rates without an income exemption."

...I repeat: The very first thing that should happen before the Goverment starts milking the poor is to end every friggin loophole and tax exemptions for the wealthy.

You envision using health care to "end of cross-generational wealth"? What on earth does that mean to the poor?

Do you know of a single-payer system that targets "cross-generational wealth" with milking the poor in mind?

Single-payer systems have income thresholds for premiums, meaning those below a certain income are covered free. They have progressive taxation, meaning higher income earners pay more.

 

Chan790

(20,176 posts)
50. Regardless of precedent, I don't have an issue with it.
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 11:44 PM
Mar 2014

I'm a fervent advocate of the thought that the taxes are too damned low...on everybody. Yes, especially on the rich...but across the board too.

Higher taxes for more services and higher government spending. Because the government really can spend your tax-dollars more efficiently and beneficially than you can.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
51. Do you think
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 12:02 AM
Mar 2014

"Regardless of precedent, I don't have an issue with it.

I'm a fervent advocate of the thought that the taxes are too damned low...on everybody. Yes, especially on the rich...but across the board too. "

...people with incomes below the poverty level should be taxed? The problem with your theoretical approach is that the rich will find a way to pay less, and low income Americans will wind up screwed.

"Higher taxes for more services and higher government spending. Because the government really can spend your tax-dollars more efficiently and beneficially than you can."

Good idea, but isn't health care for the poor considered "more services"? Strengthening the safety net (aid to the poor, the hungry, the homeless and the unemployed) should be a top priority when government revenues increase.

Americans pay into unemployment. Should they have to pay it back when they return to work?

The only people who seem to have to pay back the Government are the poor. I guess it's because food and health are luxuries.

kelly1mm

(4,732 posts)
34. Yes. It is not their house. It is the person who passed house. If they had 200k in the bank
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 10:10 PM
Mar 2014

and rented a house, should the 18 and 21 year old get the 200k? I answered your question, please answer mine.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
39. The piece
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 10:36 PM
Mar 2014

"If they had 200k in the bank and rented a house, should the 18 and 21 year old get the 200k? "

...indicates that such evasion would be illegal.

Special rules under Medicaid law that apply to annuities, life-estates, promissory notes, and trusts to block the use of these devices to evade the asset transfer provisions also apply to MAGI-eligible individuals who use LTSS services for which the asset transfer prohibition would apply.

I would have no problem with the children getting the assets.

Do you think that this rule should apply to every Medicaid recipient, not just those receiving long-term nursing home care?

Do you envision a single-payer system where the assets of low-income Americans are seized upon death?

kelly1mm

(4,732 posts)
42. No, I would do not envision a single payer system doing that at all. That is not how any of the
Sat Mar 1, 2014, 10:43 PM
Mar 2014

single payer systems I am aware of are funded. I support a VAT like tax solely used to fund single payer HC but their are other ways as well that would be fine with me.

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