Ukraine has a right to determine its own future. If Russia uses force, the US should also.

[BrentWil]

The United States, Russia, and the UK agreed to respect the boundaries of the Ukraine in the Budapest Memorandum ( http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-explainer-budapest-memorandum/25280502.html ). The Russian speaking minority in the Ukraine have not been abused and that is not a justification for any Russian use of military force.. Ukraine is historically a nation and should be allowed to resolve its own internal issues. If Russia uses force in the Ukraine, the US should be ready to respond with force.

[Democracyinkind]

1. Is the crimea historically a part of Ukraine?

It depends on whose history you're reading.

There are no easy answers here.

[Adrahil]

64. Well....

... whether it historically is is a bit beside the point. It legally is, and that was acknowledged by Russia in a treaty. This is NOT about protecting ethnic Russians. This is about a warm water port, and reclaiming lost empire.

[Democracyinkind]

83. Yes, as much as it is about pushing western power to Russia's doorstep. nt

[kelliekat44]

138. Which Ukraine has that right? nt

[Throd]

2. Not military force.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

3. Only if you and everyone in your family is willing to enlist

This is a complex situation with bad guys on both sides.

[BrentWil]

8. Its a complex situation for Ukraine to figure out.

We have an agreement between Russia, the UK and us to respect the present boundaries. We have to hold Russia to that agreement. That part is rather simple.

[cali]

17. Yes, it's simple. Do not go to war over Ukraine. Period. FUCK NO>

and it's disgusting to see that sentiment expressed here.

[BrentWil]

22. So Russia gets to invade and have no response from no one?

Despite agreements with Russia to respect Ukraine's territory?

[cali]

26. Why yes, essentially. Just like there was no response when the U.S

invaded Grenada.

And no military response is not the same as no response.

It's insane to think that we should go to war in the Ukraine.

Literally insane.

[Bigmack]

57. What you said... times 100.... nt

[Purveyor]

78. What you said. +1 eom

[Lydia Leftcoast]

88. And Iraq and Afghanistan and Panama and Vietnam

[840high]

131. ...^

[newfie11]

40. Exactly! Nt

[stevenleser]

4. That is madness.

There are a lot of better options than to risk a confrontation that could easily go nuclear.

[BrentWil]

23. Tell that to Russia... NT

[TwilightGardener]

5. We won't--we didn't in the Georgia situation.

Ukraine does not appear to be united, so that would make it problem, anyway.

[Adrahil]

66. We didn't have a treaty with Georgia that I know of. NT

[TwilightGardener]

72. I think that Budapest thing was an agreement, not a treaty--

the Senate would have to have voted on it, or it wouldn't be enforceable in this country.

[1000words]

6. That would be the U.S. determining Ukraine's future.

When are you enlisting, btw?

[BrentWil]

20. So us doing something that stops Russia from intervening is that? What world do you live in? NT

[1000words]

34. A world that understands proxy wars are a losing proposition for all

You should join us ... or join the military.

[KoKo]

7. Interesting it's from "Radio Free Europe."

Have you read other sources on what's going on in Ukraine? RFE is our American Propaganda Voice. Nothing wrong with that but just wondered if you read other sources?

[Democracyinkind]

9. the mighty wurlitzer in action. nt

[BrentWil]

11. I simple used it as a reference to the Budapest Memorandum

However, here is an example from the Ukraine. They are asking us to stand by that agreement.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukraine-urges-budapest-memorandum-signatories-to-guarantee-its-integrity-yatseniuk-337770.html

[BrentWil]

16. And Irish Times...

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/ukraine-seeks-nato-assistance-as-un-meets-1.1709723

Many others. Just google.

[malaise]

19. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! n/t

[Loudly]

10. In situations such as this, I always ask myself

What would Sweden do?

[BrentWil]

18. Collaborate with Nazis? NT

[Loudly]

69. According to Wikipedia, Sweden navigated that dangerous era

quite nimbly and according to the rules of the time.

In addition, it provided sanctuary to hundreds of thousands of refugees.

Pretty impressive, really.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_in_World_War_II

[BrentWil]

76. Yeah is you like money form Nazi's and not standing

Up to those who murder millions... Very impressive indeed. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/murky-truth-of-how-a-neutral-sweden-covered-up-its-collaboration-with-nazis-727261.html

[Loudly]

85. Well I sure wouldn't want to point to Switzerland as the model of neutrality.

Talk about collaborators!

[JVS]

110. Sweden did more good by not getting into a losing fight than they would have by getting stomped.

[BrentWil]

120. By good, do you mean profit? NT

[JVS]

109. Sweden's collaboration pales in comparison to Finland.

Frankly, I think the Swedes are just looking for something to feel guilty about. Ireland sat the war out and doesn't give a shit about it. Then there are all the countries that actively allied with Germany after France fell and have the chutzpa to consider themselves victims.

[BrentWil]

112. Finland fought against Russia as part of the axis, only to later turn against Germany and fight...

Them. At the beginning of the war, they saw (and were correct), that Russia was their major enemy.

[JVS]

113. Yeah, they collaborated. Helping starve Leningrad was really shitty of them.

[msongs]

12. all DUers who believe this are welcome to go "over there" and make it so, right? nt

[stevenleser]

97. I'm against military action, but that is a ridiculous argument everytime you make it.

For starters, there are plenty of DUers who are not eligible for military service for one reason or another. An individual's ability to serve shouldn't determine foreign policy.

[Cheese4TheRat]

140. Actually, it should. It is soooo much easier to advocate war over there

Knowing you'll be at peace over here.

[lostincalifornia]

13. Nope

[cali]

14. What???? That's just insane.

fuck war mongering.

[tblue37]

15. That just goes to show it's always something. nt

[FarCenter]

21. The government in Kyiv stupidly revoked Russian language as a second official language

The Guardian, Sunday 23 February 2014 - One of the first issues the parliament tackled this weekend was that of the language, annulling a bill that provided for Russian to be used as a second official language in regions with large Russian-speaking populations.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/23/ukraine-crisis-western-nations-eu-russia

This was one of the first things they did last weekend, and it was a key provocation to those who speak Russian as a first language in Crimea and eastern Ukraine.

[BrentWil]

25. And that is justification for a Russian invasion?

Ukraine needs to work that out. Not Russia.

[SunSeeker]

129. Ukrainian was the only official language until that idiot Yanukovych pushed for Russian in 2012.

The ensuing law created deep divisions and was inextricably tied to the disgraced Yanukovych. That is why his law was repealed and the country restored to just one official language.

[FarCenter]

135. Before independence Ukraine was bilingual

After independence, Ukrainian nationalists attempted to establish Ukrainian through a campaign of derussification. But their attempt never accomplished its goal and Russian is used about half the time in Ukraine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_language#Independence_in_the_modern_era

[SunSeeker]

136. Before independence, which was only in 1991, Russians quashed use of Ukrainian.

They wouldn't teach it in schools. It is amazing that so many people still spoke Ukrainian despite Russia's active efforts to end the language. The "campaign" you speak of was not so much "derussification" as it was a reestablishment of their native language. Considering they have only been at it for about one generation, seems to me they were quite successful. In fact, so successful that it prompted the pro-Russian forces in the country to pass that stupid law. 75% of Ukrainian residents identify themselves as ethnically Ukrainian. They have a right to reestablish their ethnic identity, including their language.

[LittleBlue]

24. Have you learned nothing from the last 13 years in Afghanistan?

Force doesn't solve anything.

What do you plan on doing when the Crimeans vote to join Russia? Kill them until they stop being Russian?

[BrentWil]

27. What about the 20 million in Russia that don't speak Russian? Do they get to vote and leave also?

Ukraine needs to work this out. Not Russia. There has been no historical abuses here of any scale or scope to justify an invasion.

[LittleBlue]

31. They get a vote like everyone else

And if Russia doesn't respect that, the solution isn't war with Russia FFS. That's insane.

[BrentWil]

28. And Force solves some things...

There are no Nazi's in France currently.

[Democracyinkind]

30. Of course there are. They'll probably win the next election.

[LittleBlue]

33. Did the Nazis have a nuclear arsenal?

Because if they did, none of us would be here talking right now and France wouldn't exist.

You really think Russia is going to let us march troops up to their border? Why do you think no one is talking about this? Because it's suicidal.

[cali]

35. so paint us the scenario. How does our sending military forces

to oust the Russians from the Crimea help Ukrainians?

[BrentWil]

45. I imagine the threat would be enough to stop Russian intervention...

They have a stake in a stable Ukraine. Finland after WWII would be a good model.

[cali]

46. lol. really? you imagine that? well, gee. how fucking reassuring.

[Lost_Count]

133. Force solves all sorts of things...

Please refer to all of history for examples. The trick is proper application of the force.

Diplomacy is only possible because of force.

[jberryhill]

29. Well you go right ahead and do that

If that's what you want to do, be our guest.

[Rex]

32. The North Korean people have a right to be free.

I can play this game too.

[BrentWil]

49. I agree. Hopefully they will be one day...

However, if they attack the South, we should stop them from making another state not free.

[Rex]

50. So why are we just sitting there on the border waiting then?

Should we finally free the people of NK with our military?

[okaawhatever]

124. If all the individuals in N Korea one day stood up to their government and tried to overthrow the

oppression should we help or should we allow Nk to kill even more of their own citizens?

[Rex]

132. We should help, I think it is our moral obligation.

China can just get over it, they are our most favored trading partner and should also be ashamed to let the farce of leadership go on as long as it has in NK, IMO.

[Warren Stupidity]

36. Land War with Russia, always a great idea! Never out of style!

[cali]

39. thread win!

tasteful and classic gift to the discerning war profiteer- not just yesterday but today and tomorrow!

[Hekate]

55. No kidding. Just as Afghanistan is the "graveyard of empires," the Russian Winter WILL kill invaders

Napolean and Hitler both found that one out. Geography is destiny.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

89. Let's see. Napoleon tried and failed. Hitler tried and failed.

That would be committing the classic blunder--getting involved in a land war in Asia. Wit and wisdom of Vizinni.

[Warren Stupidity]

95. They were amateurs.

[NuclearDem]

107. Two groups have ever captured and held Russia.

The Russians, and the Mongols.

And the Mongols did it from the east.

[BrentWil]

118. Why would you want to capture Russia?

Even if it came to a shooting war, wouldn't the goal be securing the Ukraine?

[Brigid]

106. Land war *in* Russia -- even worse idea.

The country is just so damn big, would-be invaders pretty much just get swallowed up, ala Napoleon and Hitler.

[alcibiades_mystery]

37. Have some of you folks lost your goddamned minds?

What in the name of holy fuck? War with Russia over the Autonomous Region of the Crimea?

Jiminy Christmas.

[arcane1]

44. Well, they recently spoke of cutting the defense budget.

We can't have THAT, now can we?

[Iggo]

38. Ukraine has a right to self-determination, and by god the Russians and the US will show them how!

[BrentWil]

47. Preventing another from interfering is not the same as interfering. They are asking for our aid...

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukraine-urges-budapest-memorandum-signatories-to-guarantee-its-integrity-yatseniuk-337770.html

[TwilightGardener]

41. By the way, which side will Edward Snowden fight for?

Curious about that.

[KoKo]

65. Oh come on...that was uncalled for...n/t

[TwilightGardener]

70. Srsly, though--we should offer him some sort of deal to come home.

Plea deal, reduced charges, etc.--not certain of his legal status. He probably wants to--Russia is really, genuinely not to be trusted.

[GeorgeGist]

126. Benghazi!!!

You win.

[oldhippie]

42. Sorry, I decline ....

You can go ahead and do what you wish. Good luck.

[giftedgirl77]

43. As a 36 yr old vet who is totally & permantly disabled

due to deployments with a husband who has 4 more yrs that are nonnegtionable & countless friends in the same boat I would kindly ask that you take your warmongering elsewhere. This is not our fight.

[Hekate]

56. Thank you for the voice of bitter experience

[libdem4life]

108. Thank you for your service. Safety to your husband. Peace to all.

[giftedgirl77]

121. ....

[bravenak]

48. You should lead the way.

Once you get it going, call us and let us know how you are doing over there.

Using force against Russia in this situation is madness.

[steve2470]

51. Get your rifle and go on over

I won't be joining you.

[Hekate]

53. Why us? Why OUR Army and Air Force? Do we really need to intervene AGAIN?

What about the EU? THEY live there.

Do you have any idea how much trouble we get into by jumping in to "help" where we do not have a real plan for EXIT? Have you been living in a cave the last 20, 30, or 50 years?

[Douglas Carpenter]

54. please tell me you're joking

[Vinnie From Indy]

58. Only madmen and fools would offer such an idea

Will you go or send your children if this comes to pass?

[Bigmack]

59. Bismarck had the right of it...

"Europe today is a powder keg and the leaders are like men smoking in an arsenal ... A single spark will set off an explosion that will consume us all ... I cannot tell you when that explosion will occur, but I can tell you where ... Some damned foolish thing in the Balkans will set it off."
Otto von Bismarck... Congress of Berlin in 1878.

Ok.. maybe Europe isn't a powder keg, and Crimea isn't the Balkans, but the idea is the same.

What person in their right mind somehow imagines that the US has interests there? Interests worth our blood and treasure?

[OutNow]

60. As a Vietnam-era veteran I vote No WAR WITH RUSSIA

Send troops to Ukraine? I remember Democrats like Senator Scoop Jackson (i.e. the senator from Boeing) who never saw a war he didn't like, but after decades and billions of dollars wasted on Iraq and Afghanistan now you want to start another one with Russia? No way man.

[Cartoonist]

61. Hawaii has a right to determine its own future.

But we invaded them anyway and threw their Queen in Jail.

This situation troubles me, but I don't like war or imperialism. Good thing I'm not in charge, I really have no solutions to offer, just a plea to avoid war.

[arely staircase]

62. we shouldn't and we won't. nt

[L0oniX]

63. "the US should also" Who the fuck said that?

Some fucking US war monger? Let me guess ...was it McCain and his mini me?

[laundry_queen]

67. OMFheaddesk. nt

[Douglas Carpenter]

68. if you are actually serious and you honestly think war with Russia as a response to possible

Russian military intervention in the Ukraine is a good idea - I strongly suggest that for your own safety and the safety of those around you that you cease forming opinions about things and making decisions about matters that affect yourself and those around you. You really must for you own good and the well being of those around you place yourself under the supervision of a competent person who can make all your decisions for you - given that you decision making abilities represent a clear and present danger to yourself and others.

[Marr]

71. Cool-- so when do you ship out?

Or is this another case of 'let's you and him fight'?

[BrentWil]

73. Not important to the debate.... But

I am active duty.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

92. Is that what the talk shows on Armed Forces Radio are saying

that "we" should invade Russia to protect Ukraine?

[BrentWil]

93. Don't listen to it.

Get my news from PBS News Hour, New York Times, the Atlantic, and the economist.

[flying rabbit]

74. We dare not fall victim to one of the classic blunders-

"the most famous of which is, “Never get involved in a land war in Asia”—but only slightly less well-known is this: “Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line”! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha…[thunk]."

[LisaL]

75. Deal. Lets nuke the hell out of each other.

[doc03]

77. Are you willing to sign up or have your family sign up or do you

want someone else to do it for you.

[larkrake]

79. It is not our business, it is NATO's

[TheKentuckian]

80. Step away from the Risk board!

[longship]

81. Sorry, apparently somebody does not understand spheres of influence.

And the consequences of violating such things. Apparently some would be satisfied with another world war as long as the USA does the right thing.

In this case, both Obama and Putin know that US military intervention in the Ukraine is not an option. To do so would put Russia and US on a war footing against each other. Only a madman would do that. I will leave to others to consider about anybody who would thoughtlessly state that the US should do such a thing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. +1

anyway, we are really pawns in this. So we can all spin our wheels. If the elites in both countries are that nuts, and I have not been given any evidence they are, we will be in for the ride anyway.

But spheres of influence and real politik and a new empire rising for the ashes... and all that.

[jsr]

82. We have enough problems in the United States.

[Wet Willie]

86. Russia has been invited in by the democratically elected gov of Crimea, and Leader of the Ukraine.

The only ones using force, so far, have been the violent thugs who overthrew the democratically elected gov of the Ukraine.

Trying to gin up a military response from the US is completely disengaged from the facts on the ground.

[BrentWil]

91. Really?

Maybe you missed the former government using real guns to kill protesters and beating the shit out of them.

[MineralMan]

87. And you will enlist immediately,

I'm sure.

[Brigid]

90. We can't afford it.

In case you haven't noticed, we're broke.

[rug]

94. Oh bullshit.

The Ukraine is not the Sudetenland and this is not 1938.

[Arrowhead2k1]

96. This is none of our concern. We'd do the same if pro-Russians toppled the Canadian government... nt

nt

[NuclearDem]

98. I'm sorry, you're not ACTUALLY suggesting a shooting war with Russia are you?

[BrentWil]

99. I am suggesting we should be willing to, along with the EU and NATO

[NuclearDem]

100. You're aware Russia has nuclear weapons right?

And you're familiar with the history of WWI, right?

[SolutionisSolidarity]

101. OK, that's one vote for full out nuclear conflict.

Any second?

[steve2470]

105. exactly nt

[pinboy3niner]

102. How soon we forget...

[steve2470]

104. bear with me here

Let's say we send all our available armed forces to Ukraine. Do you really think for one second that Putin would allow us to get within 1000 miles of Russia's borders without threatening nuclear escalation ? Of course he would. President Obama would do the same thing if Russia advanced their forces too close to us in a threatening manner.

You claimed somewhere in this thread that you are active duty military. I would give my blunt opinion of this thread but it would get hidden rapidly probably.

[dionysus]

111. lolwut?

[neverforget]

114. On the plus side, it'd be our last war. But the downside is that there'll be no one

around to enjoy it.

[karadax]

115. A Russian intelligence vessel docked in Havana a few days ago.

Would it make sense to intervene in Ukraine when a Russian boat containing god knows what form of surface to air weaponry is about 100 miles from Florida ?

[Enthusiast]

116. One recommendation.

[Enthusiast]

117. This was probably agreed to behind doors of secrecy.

For future US concerns in Iran.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

119. Erect bogeyman, wave flag, give more money to the MIC, send in the troops..or bombers.

Maybe you should make a movie and call it...

[lillypaddle]

122. That is totally fucked up

You related to John McCain by chance?

NO MORE WAR IN OTHER PEOPLE'S COUNTRIES!

[LisaL]

123. While Ukraine has a right to determine its own future, WTF does US have to do with it?

And never mind that Ukraine appears to be conflicted within itself on what that future should be.

[GP6971]

125. A memorandum isn't a treaty. n/t

[CanonRay]

127. How?

We still have troops in Afghanistan. Our Navy effectively has no presence in the Black Sea to impact the Crimea. It would take months to get what troops are available assembled and over there. If we re-instate the draft, we'd have more troops in 6-12 months. All we could do is bomb the shit out of the Russians (who will be mixed in with Ukrainian civilians) and they WILL respond. So exactly how do we do this, assuming it's a good idea, which it isn't. Well, I guess we could threaten nukes....

[Vinnie From Indy]

130. LOL - Is this our daily dose of insanity?

I doubt I have read a more ridiculous OP in my years here on DU. Here is my equally as serious response to this OP:

[Autumn]

134. No

[L0oniX]

137. OFFS What utter bullshit. Who in the hell is running rferi now?

If Russia uses force, the US should also.

[frwrfpos]

139. Good luck with that wishful thinking

Russia will put down the fascist elements that have violently taken over Ukrainian parts of the government and shut them down hard. Too bad for you that you wont get your wish and the CIA backed terrorists who have installed themselves will be arrested and imprisoned as they should be.

[backscatter712]

141. The Army recruiting office is that way... -->

You first.