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Sat Mar 1, 2014, 05:44 PM

Ukraine has a right to determine its own future. If Russia uses force, the US should also.

The United States, Russia, and the UK agreed to respect the boundaries of the Ukraine in the Budapest Memorandum ( http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-explainer-budapest-memorandum/25280502.html ). The Russian speaking minority in the Ukraine have not been abused and that is not a justification for any Russian use of military force.. Ukraine is historically a nation and should be allowed to resolve its own internal issues. If Russia uses force in the Ukraine, the US should be ready to respond with force.

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Reply Ukraine has a right to determine its own future. If Russia uses force, the US should also. (Original post)
BrentWil Mar 2014 OP
Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #1
Adrahil Mar 2014 #64
Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #83
kelliekat44 Mar 2014 #138
Throd Mar 2014 #2
Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2014 #3
BrentWil Mar 2014 #8
cali Mar 2014 #17
BrentWil Mar 2014 #22
cali Mar 2014 #26
Bigmack Mar 2014 #57
Purveyor Mar 2014 #78
Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2014 #88
840high Mar 2014 #131
smokey775 Mar 2014 #128
newfie11 Mar 2014 #40
stevenleser Mar 2014 #4
BrentWil Mar 2014 #23
TwilightGardener Mar 2014 #5
Adrahil Mar 2014 #66
TwilightGardener Mar 2014 #72
1000words Mar 2014 #6
BrentWil Mar 2014 #20
1000words Mar 2014 #34
KoKo Mar 2014 #7
Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #9
BrentWil Mar 2014 #11
BrentWil Mar 2014 #16
malaise Mar 2014 #19
Loudly Mar 2014 #10
BrentWil Mar 2014 #18
Loudly Mar 2014 #69
BrentWil Mar 2014 #76
Loudly Mar 2014 #85
JVS Mar 2014 #110
BrentWil Mar 2014 #120
JVS Mar 2014 #109
BrentWil Mar 2014 #112
JVS Mar 2014 #113
msongs Mar 2014 #12
stevenleser Mar 2014 #97
Cheese4TheRat Mar 2014 #140
lostincalifornia Mar 2014 #13
cali Mar 2014 #14
tblue37 Mar 2014 #15
FarCenter Mar 2014 #21
BrentWil Mar 2014 #25
SunSeeker Mar 2014 #129
FarCenter Mar 2014 #135
SunSeeker Mar 2014 #136
LittleBlue Mar 2014 #24
BrentWil Mar 2014 #27
LittleBlue Mar 2014 #31
BrentWil Mar 2014 #28
Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #30
LittleBlue Mar 2014 #33
cali Mar 2014 #35
BrentWil Mar 2014 #45
cali Mar 2014 #46
Lost_Count Mar 2014 #133
jberryhill Mar 2014 #29
Rex Mar 2014 #32
BrentWil Mar 2014 #49
Rex Mar 2014 #50
okaawhatever Mar 2014 #124
Rex Mar 2014 #132
Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #36
cali Mar 2014 #39
Hekate Mar 2014 #55
Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #89
Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #95
NuclearDem Mar 2014 #107
BrentWil Mar 2014 #118
Brigid Mar 2014 #106
alcibiades_mystery Mar 2014 #37
arcane1 Mar 2014 #44
Iggo Mar 2014 #38
BrentWil Mar 2014 #47
Iggo Mar 2014 #52
TwilightGardener Mar 2014 #41
KoKo Mar 2014 #65
TwilightGardener Mar 2014 #70
GeorgeGist Mar 2014 #126
oldhippie Mar 2014 #42
giftedgirl77 Mar 2014 #43
Hekate Mar 2014 #56
libdem4life Mar 2014 #108
giftedgirl77 Mar 2014 #121
bravenak Mar 2014 #48
steve2470 Mar 2014 #51
Hekate Mar 2014 #53
Douglas Carpenter Mar 2014 #54
Vinnie From Indy Mar 2014 #58
Bigmack Mar 2014 #59
OutNow Mar 2014 #60
Cartoonist Mar 2014 #61
arely staircase Mar 2014 #62
L0oniX Mar 2014 #63
laundry_queen Mar 2014 #67
Douglas Carpenter Mar 2014 #68
Marr Mar 2014 #71
BrentWil Mar 2014 #73
Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2014 #92
BrentWil Mar 2014 #93
flying rabbit Mar 2014 #74
LisaL Mar 2014 #75
doc03 Mar 2014 #77
larkrake Mar 2014 #79
TheKentuckian Mar 2014 #80
longship Mar 2014 #81
nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #84
jsr Mar 2014 #82
Wet Willie Mar 2014 #86
BrentWil Mar 2014 #91
Name removed Mar 2014 #103
MineralMan Mar 2014 #87
Brigid Mar 2014 #90
rug Mar 2014 #94
Arrowhead2k1 Mar 2014 #96
NuclearDem Mar 2014 #98
BrentWil Mar 2014 #99
NuclearDem Mar 2014 #100
SolutionisSolidarity Mar 2014 #101
steve2470 Mar 2014 #105
pinboy3niner Mar 2014 #102
steve2470 Mar 2014 #104
dionysus Mar 2014 #111
neverforget Mar 2014 #114
karadax Mar 2014 #115
Enthusiast Mar 2014 #116
Enthusiast Mar 2014 #117
Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2014 #119
lillypaddle Mar 2014 #122
LisaL Mar 2014 #123
GP6971 Mar 2014 #125
CanonRay Mar 2014 #127
Vinnie From Indy Mar 2014 #130
Autumn Mar 2014 #134
L0oniX Mar 2014 #137
frwrfpos Mar 2014 #139
backscatter712 Mar 2014 #141

Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 05:45 PM

1. Is the crimea historically a part of Ukraine?

It depends on whose history you're reading.

There are no easy answers here.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #1)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:48 PM

64. Well....

 

... whether it historically is is a bit beside the point. It legally is, and that was acknowledged by Russia in a treaty. This is NOT about protecting ethnic Russians. This is about a warm water port, and reclaiming lost empire.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #64)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 07:44 PM

83. Yes, as much as it is about pushing western power to Russia's doorstep. nt

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #1)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 09:12 PM

138. Which Ukraine has that right? nt

 

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 05:46 PM

2. Not military force.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 05:47 PM

3. Only if you and everyone in your family is willing to enlist

This is a complex situation with bad guys on both sides.

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Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #3)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 05:51 PM

8. Its a complex situation for Ukraine to figure out.

We have an agreement between Russia, the UK and us to respect the present boundaries. We have to hold Russia to that agreement. That part is rather simple.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #8)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 05:56 PM

17. Yes, it's simple. Do not go to war over Ukraine. Period. FUCK NO>

 

and it's disgusting to see that sentiment expressed here.

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Response to cali (Reply #17)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 05:59 PM

22. So Russia gets to invade and have no response from no one?

Despite agreements with Russia to respect Ukraine's territory?

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #22)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:03 PM

26. Why yes, essentially. Just like there was no response when the U.S

 

invaded Grenada.

And no military response is not the same as no response.

It's insane to think that we should go to war in the Ukraine.

Literally insane.

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Response to cali (Reply #26)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:34 PM

57. What you said... times 100.... nt

 

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Response to cali (Reply #26)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 07:29 PM

78. What you said. +1 eom

 

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Response to cali (Reply #26)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 09:17 PM

88. And Iraq and Afghanistan and Panama and Vietnam

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Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #88)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 02:24 PM

131. ...^

 

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #22)


Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #3)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:11 PM

40. Exactly! Nt

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 05:48 PM

4. That is madness.

 

There are a lot of better options than to risk a confrontation that could easily go nuclear.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #4)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:00 PM

23. Tell that to Russia... NT

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 05:48 PM

5. We won't--we didn't in the Georgia situation.

Ukraine does not appear to be united, so that would make it problem, anyway.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #5)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:49 PM

66. We didn't have a treaty with Georgia that I know of. NT

 

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #66)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 07:11 PM

72. I think that Budapest thing was an agreement, not a treaty--

the Senate would have to have voted on it, or it wouldn't be enforceable in this country.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 05:48 PM

6. That would be the U.S. determining Ukraine's future.

 

When are you enlisting, btw?

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Response to 1000words (Reply #6)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 05:58 PM

20. So us doing something that stops Russia from intervening is that? What world do you live in? NT

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #20)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:07 PM

34. A world that understands proxy wars are a losing proposition for all

 

You should join us ... or join the military.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 05:51 PM

7. Interesting it's from "Radio Free Europe."

Have you read other sources on what's going on in Ukraine? RFE is our American Propaganda Voice. Nothing wrong with that but just wondered if you read other sources?

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Response to KoKo (Reply #7)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 05:52 PM

9. the mighty wurlitzer in action. nt

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Response to KoKo (Reply #7)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 05:54 PM

11. I simple used it as a reference to the Budapest Memorandum

However, here is an example from the Ukraine. They are asking us to stand by that agreement.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukraine-urges-budapest-memorandum-signatories-to-guarantee-its-integrity-yatseniuk-337770.html

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Response to KoKo (Reply #7)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 05:57 PM

19. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! n/t

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 05:53 PM

10. In situations such as this, I always ask myself

 

What would Sweden do?

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Response to Loudly (Reply #10)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 05:57 PM

18. Collaborate with Nazis? NT

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #18)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 07:03 PM

69. According to Wikipedia, Sweden navigated that dangerous era

 

quite nimbly and according to the rules of the time.

In addition, it provided sanctuary to hundreds of thousands of refugees.

Pretty impressive, really.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_in_World_War_II

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Response to Loudly (Reply #69)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 07:18 PM

76. Yeah is you like money form Nazi's and not standing

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #76)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 08:15 PM

85. Well I sure wouldn't want to point to Switzerland as the model of neutrality.

 

Talk about collaborators!

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Response to Loudly (Reply #69)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 12:29 AM

110. Sweden did more good by not getting into a losing fight than they would have by getting stomped.

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Response to JVS (Reply #110)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 02:31 AM

120. By good, do you mean profit? NT

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #18)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 12:27 AM

109. Sweden's collaboration pales in comparison to Finland.

Frankly, I think the Swedes are just looking for something to feel guilty about. Ireland sat the war out and doesn't give a shit about it. Then there are all the countries that actively allied with Germany after France fell and have the chutzpa to consider themselves victims.

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Response to JVS (Reply #109)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 12:46 AM

112. Finland fought against Russia as part of the axis, only to later turn against Germany and fight...

Them. At the beginning of the war, they saw (and were correct), that Russia was their major enemy.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #112)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 12:47 AM

113. Yeah, they collaborated. Helping starve Leningrad was really shitty of them.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 05:54 PM

12. all DUers who believe this are welcome to go "over there" and make it so, right? nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #12)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 11:11 PM

97. I'm against military action, but that is a ridiculous argument everytime you make it.

 

For starters, there are plenty of DUers who are not eligible for military service for one reason or another. An individual's ability to serve shouldn't determine foreign policy.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #97)

Mon Mar 3, 2014, 03:33 AM

140. Actually, it should. It is soooo much easier to advocate war over there

 

Knowing you'll be at peace over here.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 05:54 PM

13. Nope

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 05:54 PM

14. What???? That's just insane.

 

fuck war mongering.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 05:55 PM

15. That just goes to show it's always something. nt

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 05:58 PM

21. The government in Kyiv stupidly revoked Russian language as a second official language

 

The Guardian, Sunday 23 February 2014 - One of the first issues the parliament tackled this weekend was that of the language, annulling a bill that provided for Russian to be used as a second official language in regions with large Russian-speaking populations.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/23/ukraine-crisis-western-nations-eu-russia

This was one of the first things they did last weekend, and it was a key provocation to those who speak Russian as a first language in Crimea and eastern Ukraine.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #21)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:01 PM

25. And that is justification for a Russian invasion?

Ukraine needs to work that out. Not Russia.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #21)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 02:00 PM

129. Ukrainian was the only official language until that idiot Yanukovych pushed for Russian in 2012.

The ensuing law created deep divisions and was inextricably tied to the disgraced Yanukovych. That is why his law was repealed and the country restored to just one official language.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #129)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 03:17 PM

135. Before independence Ukraine was bilingual

 

After independence, Ukrainian nationalists attempted to establish Ukrainian through a campaign of derussification. But their attempt never accomplished its goal and Russian is used about half the time in Ukraine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_language#Independence_in_the_modern_era

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #135)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 07:47 PM

136. Before independence, which was only in 1991, Russians quashed use of Ukrainian.

They wouldn't teach it in schools. It is amazing that so many people still spoke Ukrainian despite Russia's active efforts to end the language. The "campaign" you speak of was not so much "derussification" as it was a reestablishment of their native language. Considering they have only been at it for about one generation, seems to me they were quite successful. In fact, so successful that it prompted the pro-Russian forces in the country to pass that stupid law. 75% of Ukrainian residents identify themselves as ethnically Ukrainian. They have a right to reestablish their ethnic identity, including their language.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:01 PM

24. Have you learned nothing from the last 13 years in Afghanistan?

 

Force doesn't solve anything.

What do you plan on doing when the Crimeans vote to join Russia? Kill them until they stop being Russian?

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #24)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:03 PM

27. What about the 20 million in Russia that don't speak Russian? Do they get to vote and leave also?

Ukraine needs to work this out. Not Russia. There has been no historical abuses here of any scale or scope to justify an invasion.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #27)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:06 PM

31. They get a vote like everyone else

 

And if Russia doesn't respect that, the solution isn't war with Russia FFS. That's insane.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #24)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:04 PM

28. And Force solves some things...

There are no Nazi's in France currently.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #28)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:05 PM

30. Of course there are. They'll probably win the next election.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #28)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:07 PM

33. Did the Nazis have a nuclear arsenal?

 

Because if they did, none of us would be here talking right now and France wouldn't exist.

You really think Russia is going to let us march troops up to their border? Why do you think no one is talking about this? Because it's suicidal.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #28)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:07 PM

35. so paint us the scenario. How does our sending military forces

 

to oust the Russians from the Crimea help Ukrainians?

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Response to cali (Reply #35)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:15 PM

45. I imagine the threat would be enough to stop Russian intervention...

They have a stake in a stable Ukraine. Finland after WWII would be a good model.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #45)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:16 PM

46. lol. really? you imagine that? well, gee. how fucking reassuring.

 

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #24)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 03:00 PM

133. Force solves all sorts of things...

 

Please refer to all of history for examples. The trick is proper application of the force.

Diplomacy is only possible because of force.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:05 PM

29. Well you go right ahead and do that

 


If that's what you want to do, be our guest.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:07 PM

32. The North Korean people have a right to be free.

 

I can play this game too.

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Response to Rex (Reply #32)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:19 PM

49. I agree. Hopefully they will be one day...

However, if they attack the South, we should stop them from making another state not free.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #49)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:20 PM

50. So why are we just sitting there on the border waiting then?

 

Should we finally free the people of NK with our military?

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Response to Rex (Reply #50)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 01:01 PM

124. If all the individuals in N Korea one day stood up to their government and tried to overthrow the

oppression should we help or should we allow Nk to kill even more of their own citizens?

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Response to okaawhatever (Reply #124)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 02:31 PM

132. We should help, I think it is our moral obligation.

 

China can just get over it, they are our most favored trading partner and should also be ashamed to let the farce of leadership go on as long as it has in NK, IMO.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:08 PM

36. Land War with Russia, always a great idea! Never out of style!

 

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #36)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:09 PM

39. thread win!

 



tasteful and classic gift to the discerning war profiteer- not just yesterday but today and tomorrow!

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #36)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:31 PM

55. No kidding. Just as Afghanistan is the "graveyard of empires," the Russian Winter WILL kill invaders

Napolean and Hitler both found that one out. Geography is destiny.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #36)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 09:20 PM

89. Let's see. Napoleon tried and failed. Hitler tried and failed.

 

That would be committing the classic blunder--getting involved in a land war in Asia. Wit and wisdom of Vizinni.

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Reply #89)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 11:04 PM

95. They were amateurs.

 

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Reply #89)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 12:23 AM

107. Two groups have ever captured and held Russia.

 

The Russians, and the Mongols.

And the Mongols did it from the east.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #107)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 02:17 AM

118. Why would you want to capture Russia?

Even if it came to a shooting war, wouldn't the goal be securing the Ukraine?

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #36)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 12:14 AM

106. Land war *in* Russia -- even worse idea.

The country is just so damn big, would-be invaders pretty much just get swallowed up, ala Napoleon and Hitler.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:09 PM

37. Have some of you folks lost your goddamned minds?

 

What in the name of holy fuck? War with Russia over the Autonomous Region of the Crimea?

Jiminy Christmas.

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #37)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:15 PM

44. Well, they recently spoke of cutting the defense budget.

 

We can't have THAT, now can we?

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:09 PM

38. Ukraine has a right to self-determination, and by god the Russians and the US will show them how!

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Response to Iggo (Reply #38)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:16 PM

47. Preventing another from interfering is not the same as interfering. They are asking for our aid...

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #47)


Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:12 PM

41. By the way, which side will Edward Snowden fight for?

Curious about that.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #41)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:48 PM

65. Oh come on...that was uncalled for...n/t

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Response to KoKo (Reply #65)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 07:07 PM

70. Srsly, though--we should offer him some sort of deal to come home.

Plea deal, reduced charges, etc.--not certain of his legal status. He probably wants to--Russia is really, genuinely not to be trusted.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #41)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 01:49 PM

126. Benghazi!!!

You win.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:12 PM

42. Sorry, I decline ....

 

You can go ahead and do what you wish. Good luck.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:13 PM

43. As a 36 yr old vet who is totally & permantly disabled

 

due to deployments with a husband who has 4 more yrs that are nonnegtionable & countless friends in the same boat I would kindly ask that you take your warmongering elsewhere. This is not our fight.

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Response to giftedgirl77 (Reply #43)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:34 PM

56. Thank you for the voice of bitter experience

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Response to giftedgirl77 (Reply #43)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 12:25 AM

108. Thank you for your service. Safety to your husband. Peace to all.

 

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #108)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 08:13 AM

121. ....

 

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:17 PM

48. You should lead the way.

 

Once you get it going, call us and let us know how you are doing over there.

Using force against Russia in this situation is madness.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:20 PM

51. Get your rifle and go on over

I won't be joining you.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:26 PM

53. Why us? Why OUR Army and Air Force? Do we really need to intervene AGAIN?

What about the EU? THEY live there.

Do you have any idea how much trouble we get into by jumping in to "help" where we do not have a real plan for EXIT? Have you been living in a cave the last 20, 30, or 50 years?

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:27 PM

54. please tell me you're joking

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:39 PM

58. Only madmen and fools would offer such an idea

Will you go or send your children if this comes to pass?

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:40 PM

59. Bismarck had the right of it...

 

"Europe today is a powder keg and the leaders are like men smoking in an arsenal ... A single spark will set off an explosion that will consume us all ... I cannot tell you when that explosion will occur, but I can tell you where ... Some damned foolish thing in the Balkans will set it off."
Otto von Bismarck... Congress of Berlin in 1878.

Ok.. maybe Europe isn't a powder keg, and Crimea isn't the Balkans, but the idea is the same.

What person in their right mind somehow imagines that the US has interests there? Interests worth our blood and treasure?

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:42 PM

60. As a Vietnam-era veteran I vote No WAR WITH RUSSIA

Send troops to Ukraine? I remember Democrats like Senator Scoop Jackson (i.e. the senator from Boeing) who never saw a war he didn't like, but after decades and billions of dollars wasted on Iraq and Afghanistan now you want to start another one with Russia? No way man.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:44 PM

61. Hawaii has a right to determine its own future.

But we invaded them anyway and threw their Queen in Jail.

This situation troubles me, but I don't like war or imperialism. Good thing I'm not in charge, I really have no solutions to offer, just a plea to avoid war.



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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:46 PM

62. we shouldn't and we won't. nt

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:46 PM

63. "the US should also" Who the fuck said that?

 

Some fucking US war monger? Let me guess ...was it McCain and his mini me?

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:50 PM

67. OMFheaddesk. nt

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:54 PM

68. if you are actually serious and you honestly think war with Russia as a response to possible

Russian military intervention in the Ukraine is a good idea - I strongly suggest that for your own safety and the safety of those around you that you cease forming opinions about things and making decisions about matters that affect yourself and those around you. You really must for you own good and the well being of those around you place yourself under the supervision of a competent person who can make all your decisions for you - given that you decision making abilities represent a clear and present danger to yourself and others.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 07:09 PM

71. Cool-- so when do you ship out?

 

Or is this another case of 'let's you and him fight'?

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Response to Marr (Reply #71)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 07:12 PM

73. Not important to the debate.... But

I am active duty.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #73)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 09:27 PM

92. Is that what the talk shows on Armed Forces Radio are saying

that "we" should invade Russia to protect Ukraine?

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Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #92)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 09:29 PM

93. Don't listen to it.

Get my news from PBS News Hour, New York Times, the Atlantic, and the economist.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 07:13 PM

74. We dare not fall victim to one of the classic blunders-

"the most famous of which is, “Never get involved in a land war in Asia”—but only slightly less well-known is this: “Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line”! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha…[thunk]."

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 07:15 PM

75. Deal. Lets nuke the hell out of each other.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 07:23 PM

77. Are you willing to sign up or have your family sign up or do you

want someone else to do it for you.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 07:30 PM

79. It is not our business, it is NATO's

 

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 07:31 PM

80. Step away from the Risk board!

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 07:37 PM

81. Sorry, apparently somebody does not understand spheres of influence.

And the consequences of violating such things. Apparently some would be satisfied with another world war as long as the USA does the right thing.

In this case, both Obama and Putin know that US military intervention in the Ukraine is not an option. To do so would put Russia and US on a war footing against each other. Only a madman would do that. I will leave to others to consider about anybody who would thoughtlessly state that the US should do such a thing.

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Response to longship (Reply #81)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 07:45 PM

84. +1

 

anyway, we are really pawns in this. So we can all spin our wheels. If the elites in both countries are that nuts, and I have not been given any evidence they are, we will be in for the ride anyway.

But spheres of influence and real politik and a new empire rising for the ashes... and all that.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 07:41 PM

82. We have enough problems in the United States.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 08:45 PM

86. Russia has been invited in by the democratically elected gov of Crimea, and Leader of the Ukraine.

 

The only ones using force, so far, have been the violent thugs who overthrew the democratically elected gov of the Ukraine.

Trying to gin up a military response from the US is completely disengaged from the facts on the ground.

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Response to Wet Willie (Reply #86)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 09:27 PM

91. Really?

Maybe you missed the former government using real guns to kill protesters and beating the shit out of them.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #91)


Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 09:05 PM

87. And you will enlist immediately,

I'm sure.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 09:22 PM

90. We can't afford it.

In case you haven't noticed, we're broke.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 09:30 PM

94. Oh bullshit.

 

The Ukraine is not the Sudetenland and this is not 1938.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 11:10 PM

96. This is none of our concern. We'd do the same if pro-Russians toppled the Canadian government... nt

nt

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 11:14 PM

98. I'm sorry, you're not ACTUALLY suggesting a shooting war with Russia are you?

 

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #98)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 11:55 PM

99. I am suggesting we should be willing to, along with the EU and NATO

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #99)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 11:56 PM

100. You're aware Russia has nuclear weapons right?

 

And you're familiar with the history of WWI, right?

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 11:58 PM

101. OK, that's one vote for full out nuclear conflict.

Any second?

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Response to SolutionisSolidarity (Reply #101)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 12:05 AM

105. exactly nt

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 12:01 AM

102. How soon we forget...

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 12:04 AM

104. bear with me here

Let's say we send all our available armed forces to Ukraine. Do you really think for one second that Putin would allow us to get within 1000 miles of Russia's borders without threatening nuclear escalation ? Of course he would. President Obama would do the same thing if Russia advanced their forces too close to us in a threatening manner.

You claimed somewhere in this thread that you are active duty military. I would give my blunt opinion of this thread but it would get hidden rapidly probably.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 12:39 AM

111. lolwut?

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 12:54 AM

114. On the plus side, it'd be our last war. But the downside is that there'll be no one

around to enjoy it.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 01:13 AM

115. A Russian intelligence vessel docked in Havana a few days ago.

Would it make sense to intervene in Ukraine when a Russian boat containing god knows what form of surface to air weaponry is about 100 miles from Florida ?

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 02:13 AM

116. One recommendation.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 02:16 AM

117. This was probably agreed to behind doors of secrecy.

For future US concerns in Iran.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 02:19 AM

119. Erect bogeyman, wave flag, give more money to the MIC, send in the troops..or bombers.

 

Maybe you should make a movie and call it...

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 12:37 PM

122. That is totally fucked up

You related to John McCain by chance?

NO MORE WAR IN OTHER PEOPLE'S COUNTRIES!

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 12:40 PM

123. While Ukraine has a right to determine its own future, WTF does US have to do with it?

And never mind that Ukraine appears to be conflicted within itself on what that future should be.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 01:33 PM

125. A memorandum isn't a treaty. n/t

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 01:49 PM

127. How?

We still have troops in Afghanistan. Our Navy effectively has no presence in the Black Sea to impact the Crimea. It would take months to get what troops are available assembled and over there. If we re-instate the draft, we'd have more troops in 6-12 months. All we could do is bomb the shit out of the Russians (who will be mixed in with Ukrainian civilians) and they WILL respond. So exactly how do we do this, assuming it's a good idea, which it isn't. Well, I guess we could threaten nukes....

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 02:10 PM

130. LOL - Is this our daily dose of insanity?

I doubt I have read a more ridiculous OP in my years here on DU. Here is my equally as serious response to this OP:

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 03:01 PM

134. No

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 09:10 PM

137. OFFS What utter bullshit. Who in the hell is running rferi now?

 

If Russia uses force, the US should also.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 09:14 PM

139. Good luck with that wishful thinking

 

Russia will put down the fascist elements that have violently taken over Ukrainian parts of the government and shut them down hard. Too bad for you that you wont get your wish and the CIA backed terrorists who have installed themselves will be arrested and imprisoned as they should be.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Mon Mar 3, 2014, 11:03 AM

141. The Army recruiting office is that way... -->

You first.

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