The Ukraine, Russia, UK and US have an agreement to respect the Ukraine's territory.Ukraine has...

[BrentWil]

Last edited Sat Mar 1, 2014, 09:07 PM - Edit history (1)

I started another post on this and I perhaps went about it the wrong way. The United States, Russia, and the UK agreed to respect the boundaries of the Ukraine in the Budapest Memorandum ( http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-explainer-budapest-memorandum/25280502.html ). Ukraine has asked the signers to guarantee Ukraine's territorial integrity. ( http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukraine-urges-budapest-memorandum-signatories-to-guarantee-its-integrity-yatseniuk-337770.html ). If you were President Obama, what would your response be to Ukraine?

It should also be noted that NATO the Charter on a Distinctive Partnership
between the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and Ukraine. http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_25457.htm

[cali]

1. you really don't get it. People KNOW what a terrible, insane stinking, cruel, fucked up

disgusting, dangerous, did I say insane?, idea this is.

And this is NOT A FUCKING TREATY. The U.S. is NOT obligated to come to Ukraine's defense.

If I were President Obama I would go the route he's going: Diplomacy.

Fuck the war mongers.

[dixiegrrrrl]

8. apparently there is a NATO charter agreement.

1997 Charter on a Distinctive Partnership
between the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and Ukraine:
14. NATO Allies will continue to support Ukrainian sovereignty and independence, territorial integrity, democratic development, economic prosperity and its status as a non-nuclear weapon state, and the principle of inviolability of frontiers, as key factors of stability and security in Central and Eastern Europe and in the continent as a whole.
15. NATO and Ukraine will develop a crisis consultative mechanism to consult together whenever Ukraine perceives a direct threat to its territorial integrity, political independence, or security.
16. NATO welcomes and supports the fact that Ukraine received security assurances from all five nuclear-weapon states parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT) as a non-nuclear weapon state party to the NPT, and recalls the commitments undertaken by the United States and the United Kingdom, together with Russia, and by France unilaterally, which took the historic decision in Budapest in 1994 to provide Ukraine with security assurances as a non-nuclear weapon state party to the NPT.

Somehow I am getting a Poland feeling about all this.

[cali]

11. I'm not clear on whether that's a binding defense agreement.

[dixiegrrrrl]

13. I am sure it will be referred to

if and when any western Gov't wants to counter Russian troops.

[jsr]

22. Inviolability is mentioned in many international documents

It's like motherhood and applie pie.

[ohheckyeah]

2. I don't think this thread

will go any better than the other one.

No to

[FarCenter]

3. It is a memorandum, and it contains no enforcement language.

Besides, situations change.

[okaawhatever]

24. You're right. Situations have changed. I say we give them back their entire nuclear stockpile. If

that loser Putin can play this game so can we. It's a shame people here are Putin apologists.

[oldhippie]

4. Continue to talk ....

..... and strong letters to follow.

[usa liberal]

5. all these multinational agreements

they are kind of sandbox play ground rules

who has the biggest dick really gonna trump any paperwork at this level

[rdharma]

6. Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty is still in business?

[aquart]

7. Nuclear powers do not go to war with each other.

Because we are not idiots.

[aquart]

9. Putin is hoping his penis will grow instead of his nose.

But I don't mind if his Russia is riddled with violent dissidence. I don't mind him being harried from every side.

How long does it take to make thousands of no insignia uniforms? How long has this been planned?

[okaawhatever]

30. No kidding. Putin isn't a foreign policy genius. He's a sociopath who is willing to ignore all

international laws to get what he wants. He mainly wants Ukraine to keep them dependent on his gas and to keep the Black Sea Fleet base there, but he also wants the Ukrainians to act as a speed bump in case anyone tries to invade Russia.

[aquart]

35. Is he aware that Russia is a nuclear power?

When was the last time a nuclear power was invaded?

[pampango]

10. If you believe that diplomacy and peaceful resolutions to problems between countries are

better than military solutions then there has to be respect for the agreements that result from peaceful negotiations.

[jsr]

12. War with Russia = Craziest fucking idea EVER

[BrentWil]

14. Tell the Russians when they don't stand by their agreements. nT

[jsr]

15. None of our business. Another clusterfuck we should stay out of.

[1awake]

16. You make a valid point. The problem is

so are those against what your saying. We have the right to introduce Military responses based on at least two different agreements. Doing so because we can doesn't make for the best response. You want to hurt Russia? Economic and political Isolation would be far easier as well as much cheaper for everyone else.

There may be a time for military responses.... we are not even close to that point yet.

[Wet Willie]

17. Territorial integrity can not be violated when you are invited in.

Russia has been invited in by Crimea Gov officials, as well as the democratically elected leader of the Ukraine, how is this an "invasion" or violation of Ukraine's "Territorial integrity"?

Because some armed thugs in Kiev who violently overthrew the democratically elected government says so?

Hmmm... I wonder how we would respond if a tea-party-ish gang of thugs violently overthrew the democratically elected government in Canada... would we support the thugs or the democratically elected head of state?

[BrentWil]

18. So when another country leases stuff to us...

We have the right to invade that county?

[Wet Willie]

19. What does that have to do with being invited in by the current government?

Crimean Leader Invites Russia to Intervene

[okaawhatever]

32. Crimea doesn't have the authority, and when the "democratically elected" President gets back to

the country he can be arrested for fraud and suspicion of murder. That's why that wimp won't go back until Putin clears the way for him. Yanukovych is toast. It may take a while for a murder trial, but it won't take long for fraud and theft. I can't believe you're even suggesting that. You're new here but your agenda is very clear.

[Wet Willie]

36. The Autonomous Republic of Crimea's local government & the democratically elected leader of Ukraine

Last edited Sat Mar 1, 2014, 10:35 PM - Edit history (1)

not to mention, the facts on the ground, seem to think they do.

CNN: Crimean Leader Invites Russia to Intervene/b]

[okaawhatever]

39. If they were that independent would that Ukraine even be an issue? they are still under the

control of Ukraine.

[RobertEarl]

20. Violently overthrew?

You mean that chicken shit little pip squeak president didn't attack the peaceful protestors who were peacefully occupying the square demanding their rights?

And then that chicken shit president, who had stolen millions of dollars, didn't run and hide?

Damn, willie, your attempt at rewriting history in a matter of days sure is ballsy.

[Wet Willie]

21. Yep, how many cops did they kidnap and kill again?

How many gov buildings and police vehicles did they torch?

Damn, RobertEarl, your memory (and the M$M) seems to conveniently forget such important facts in a matter of days sure is ballsy.

[RobertEarl]

23. No. It is your memory that is at fault

For 3 months the occupiers were peacefully occupying the square. Then the president attacked them. The occupiers fought back only to protect themselves.

Now who was it that was legally impeached by the elected representatives and who is now hiding?

The square is now empty of occupiers. They won. They got what they wanted. And what they wanted was proof that little peckerhead pip squeak wanted no pat of democracy, he wanted to be a dictator. He's gone. Done. Fini. That's the Truth, and the people won this battle.

How anyone can sit there, as you do, and call the people 'thugs' is quite embarrassing when it comes to the ideals of real democracy.

[okaawhatever]

33. Some people have had a few glasses of Putin Kool-Aid and are here to spread the word. nt

[Pretzel_Warrior]

25. That is a bogus statement.

If Juarez invited U.S. troops to their province, Mexican national government and the Mexican allies would be within their rights to push them out by force.

Putin's troops were not invited to Crimea and other parts of Ukraine by the Ukrainian national government.

Putin is just asking for a drone on his ass.

[Wet Willie]

27. Do you need a link, too?

Check my post above, but it has been all over the news.

This is clearly not an invasion by any stretch of the imagination... well, accept maybe Palin's, though that is poor company to keep.

Sarah Palin, Wall Street Journal rewrite history of Russia-Georgia war
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024587124

[Pretzel_Warrior]

28. If you like being wrong 10 times over, be my guest.

If Russia doesn't back away now, the US and Europe can crater their economy.

[seattledo]

40. This! And, I don't understand why CONservatives can't respect that!

It is their people, and they have been asked to help protect them. Why can't the Republicans here understand that?

[alcibiades_mystery]

26. The case here is not clear cut in the least

1) There's a good argument to be made that there has been no valid succession in Ukraine's government.
2) There's a case to be made that ethnic Russians are indeed in danger from Ukraine militias.
3) The "autonomous" area of Crimea is not a part of Ukraine in the same way, say, Alabama is a part of the United States. The Russian federation leases a major naval base there, it is majority ethnic Russian, and it is "autonomous" in any case.

Now, no doubt, one might say the same about Hitler's annexation of the Sudetenland (or Austria, or Krakow/Poland, etc.), and certainly, Putin's done this sort of shit before (see Georgia). That said, these high flown statements spoken as if the case is clear cut, and the 'territorial integrity" of an intact nation state has been breached are at best ignorant, at worst dishonest.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

29. You'd like it to be that vague, but it is not. Ukraine's ELECTED parliament

Appointed a temporary care taker interim government. Your statement that there is no valid succession is tripe.

[alcibiades_mystery]

31. I'd "like" nothing...unlike you, I have no dog in this fight

I don't give FUCK number ONE about what happens in Ukraine.

The "temporary care taker interim government" says it all.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

34. The. Your comments are unneeded and unwanted

[alcibiades_mystery]

37. Whatever

I also don't give FUCK ONE about your opinion.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

38. Ukraine has "asked"us to guarantee. The answer should be "no".

America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. John Quincy Adams