Why is Putin getting a pass from many?

[Are_grits_groceries]

I have kept up with the situation in Ukraine for weeks. It is not the simple black and white problem that many claim it is.

However, no matter what you think of events there, why on Earth is Putin and his actions not being mentioned or why do some think he is justified in invading Ukraine? What has he ever done to deserve any support?

The specious claim he is using to invade is to protect those Russian-speaking people or the pro-Russian supporters. Do you realize the other areas that could be subject to this pretext? We'd stroke out if the US decided to invade a portion of Mexico to protect a Americans there.

Don't start arguing about the legitimacy of the new government. That is done and will be argued about endlessly. It has no bearing on why he should avoid criticism for his actions. He is invading a sovereign nation.

I am not advocating that the US take direct military action. I believe that would be a horrible mistake. The EU and other countries in that area have to take the lead and the US should support them.

Clamp hard sanctions on the economic interests of the elites in Russia who have money and investments in other countries. Clamp down on visas and easy travel for them. Money speaks there too.

There is concern about Jewish people and others in Ukraine and rightly so. In addition, they certainly don't have an enlightened policy toward the LGBT community. However, do you seriously think Putin and Russia is a better choice with their history? If so, why?

If you disagree with the ouster of Yanukovich and have doubts about the entire governmental change, then it is certainly your right to express them. However, I repeat, that is a done deal. The Ukrainians have to sort that out. The US doesn't. Russia doesn't.

The problem now is Russia's military escalation. He deserves no cover or understanding for invading Ukraine.

[JI7]

1. snowden

[Are_grits_groceries]

2. I support Snowden and I call total bullshit on giving Putin any pass.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.
Who has cited that as a reason?

[JI7]

5. not you

But i think that's how many see it.

[G_j]

11. absurd!!

pure projection.

[arely staircase]

28. it isn't exclusive but I would bet Snowden's most ardent defenders and those giving Putin a pass

overlap considerably.

[Mojorabbit]

90. I think you are wrong. nt

[question everything]

3. Proves that this coward is/was probably a Russian Spy

No, Putin should not be given a pass. What, do some here agree with Bush, "looking into his eyes" and seeing, what, exactly?

What we should consider is the International Space Station. As a ruthless KGB person, I don't put it pass him to abandon the astronauts there.

Perhaps all the Republican chickenhawks can now restore the funds to NASA to revive the shuttle program.

Hey, perhaps we can increase funds for sciences. This is what Sputnik and the cold war did then.

[Are_grits_groceries]

7. Oh, BS on Snowden was a spy.

However, that isn't the argument here.

[2banon]

74. huh? " Proves that this coward is/was probably a Russian Spy"

I missed that evidence.. please provide.

[bvar22]

98. " Proves that this coward is/was probably a Russian Spy"

Surely you jest,
and are just making fun of the Snowden haters?


If not,
please connect those dots for me.

[frazzled]

8. Bingo

There is one reason only for people on the left to be supporting this ex-KGB, power-hungry, homophobic oligarch: he gave shelter to the guy who hacked the NSA computers.

The "hero-worshippers" have to make the world conform to the needs of their idol. There is no complexity, no gray area, no conflicting issues. It's all black and white.

It extends to Yanukovych as well: they have to support this one-time criminal who has confiscated billions of dollars from the Ukrainian people to build his peacock zoos and galleon restaurants. Go figure.

[G_j]

16. oh come on

nobody here worships Putin, so just please stop this utter nonsense.

[alarimer]

57. You can think Snowden did the right thing without also thinking Putin is some kind of good guy.

He's not and his motives in offering Snowden asylum are not pure. But the US would have stuck him in solitary confinement with no access to lawyers or anything else (see Manning for examples of how we treat whistleblowers).

Most of us are capable of seeing shades of gray (unlike conservatives who seem unable to understand nuance).

Incidentally I could write what you just wrote and substitute Obama instead. His "fans" seem to equate criticism with hate, as well as thinking he can do no wrong. The rest of us live in the real world and know that we have to hold politicians accountable for the actions they take that we do not like.

[Whisp]

100. but Snowden believes Russia is all human rightsy

the doltish fucking idiot actually said that and the ones who kiss the feet of GG and Snowden deny he even said it. Apparently it doesn't mean what it says, in Snowlandussia and Greenwaldia words have different meanings apparently.

Fuck Putin and and any idiots that believe how Putin treats LGBT folks, is worse than how LGBT people are treated in the U.S.

What putrid shit!

[2banon]

105. I missed that quote from Snowden. Do you have a link?

I don't recall ever seeing anything remotely close to what you've characterized in your post. Are you just into spreading false narratives hoping it will stick? Because I don't believe you can back that up with anything he's ever written or stated in interviews. Not ever.


But I could be wrong, maybe I just somehow missed it. A link to a direct quote would be interesting to see.

[Whisp]

113. Here:

Perhaps it was no more than being naive, but to list Putin's Russia, as Snowden did, among his little list of countries for "being the first to stand against human rights violations" suggests a dangerous moral relativism.

Far from being a champion, Russia's record on human rights violations is a grim one. Snowden's meeting with human rights groups in Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport was preceded by another piece of human rights news – the posthumous conviction of whisteblower Sergei Magnitsky, who was tortured in a Russian prison and denied medical attention that might have saved his life.

Amnesty, whose representative was at the Snowden meeting, had earlier announced the latest murder of a journalist in Russia, Akhmednabi Akhmednabiev, who was killed by an unknown gunman in the North Caucasus region after his name appeared on a death list.

There have been other recent reminders of what happens to those who criticise the Kremlin and Putin. Two members of the punk band Pussy Riot remain in jail. Indeed, yesterday – almost unremarked – it was reported that Maria Alyokhina, one of the two imprisoned musicians, was being transferred from the labour camp in the Perm region, where she has been serving two years for hooliganism for performing a song, to another prison in central Russia.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/13/edward-snowden-anna-politkovskaya

---

''Yet even in the face of this historically disproportionate aggression, countries around the world have offered support and asylum. These nations, including Russia, Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, and Ecuador have my gratitude and respect for being the first to stand against human rights violations carried out by the powerful rather than the powerless. By refusing to compromise their principles in the face of intimidation, they have earned the respect of the world. It is my intention to travel to each of these countries to extend my personal thanks to their people and leaders.''

His whole speech here:
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/edward-snowden-asylum-statement-human-rights-groups-un-venezuela-russia-moscow-airport-2013-7#ixzz2uqHYZplD

--
I can already sense an argument that he didn't Really Mean What He Said, He Meant.... blah bah blank blankety blank.

[2banon]

117. I can see your pov wrt to that statement..

I don't agree with your assessment on it, but understandably you are passionately invested in seeing Snowden through those lens.


On a side note, It is just dawning on me now what all the "hate" on Snowden has been really all about this past year.. odd that it took a completely unrelated event (Ukraine) to unravel that mystery.

[2banon]

79. Your rationalization is reminiscent of the Iraq's WMD crowd.

Those of us who opposed the invasion of Iraq were called terrorists sympathizers, supporters of OBL and
al qaeda. the difference between now and then, is that didn't happen on du.

[frazzled]

85. WHA????

I'm one of those who opposed the invasion of Iraq--marching in the streets, harassing my senators and representatives--in person--, writing letters, etc. And I'm not proposing any invasion--farthest thing from my mind. Don't know where you get that.

We are NOT invading anybody here. Russia is. And we won't be invading, either. Did we invade when the Russians marched into Prague with their tanks? Or Hungary?

Good heavens, why is everything so reductive here? This is not Iraq.

[2banon]

91. "people on the left supporting this ex-KGB...."

you said: (emphasis mine, for context)

There is one reason only for people on the left to be supporting this ex-KGB, power-hungry, homophobic oligarch: he gave shelter to the guy who hacked the NSA computers.

The "hero-worshippers" have to make the world conform to the needs of their idol. There is no complexity, no gray area, no conflicting issues. It's all black and white.

It extends to Yanukovych as well: they have to support this one-time criminal who has confiscated billions of dollars from the Ukrainian people to build his peacock zoos and galleon restaurants. Go figure.

Speaking for myself.. the very idea of military engagement/attack on Russia is the definition of insanity.

My opposition to any level of military engagement or threat of military engagement does not equate to supporting Putin or his actions in any way. My support for Snowden has no relationship to Putin in any way. I supported him, when he was Hong Kong, and thought to be traveling to safe harbor in South America or elsewhere. These two issues are completely separate and have absolutely nothing to do with the other in regards to Putin himself, or his domestic policies, or these events in Ukraine.

I'm seeing here on du, justifications and rationalisations for military action against Putin, because of Ukraine and because of his anti-gay policies. Furthermore, my opposition to that kind of action, is being regarded as supporting/worshipping/idolizing Putin himself along with this domestic and foreign policies.

That thinking is beyond ridiculous. That's what I'm responding to.

[frazzled]

95. You're still way wrong

Criticizing Putin and Yanukovych and criticizing the Russian invasion is in no way connected to support for the idea of US military engagement. There is no way at all that you can read support for that into what I wrote. At all.

I simply do not understand where you are getting that idea.

However, supporting Putin or Yanukovych is tantamount to supporting the Russian military encroachment, because that has already happened. That's not me talking: that's all of Europe, NATO, the UN. But nobody has said said anything (other than the pro-forma "on the table" stuff that is prologue to all diplomatic engagement) to suggest either Europe or the US is on the brink of war. It's hyperbolic to suggest so.

[2banon]

107. perhaps you've missed the calls for military action against Putin/Russia here on du?

this link isn't the only one, but it's a "go to" example of the backdrop in my response..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=742961

[frazzled]

108. But that's not what I was writing

And there have also been threads supporting the Russian invasion of a sovereign nation. That's probably not you.

Can we stick to what is being discussed in each post without imputing motives or positions that are not actually being put forth by the poster?

Let's chill, and turn our attentions to who wears the worst dress to tonight's Oscars. It's more fun, and I'm seriously doubting (a) Putin wants to start World War III, and that (b) if he tried, that we would take the bait. We're downsizing our military to the lowest level since pre-World War II this coming year. So unless Putin starts marching across Eastern Europe and taking over Estonia and Poland as well, I think we need to sit back and let the diplomats do their jobs.

[2banon]

111. I'm in agreement there..

Were you not attempting to support the standing argument that anti-war sentiment is the same as giving Putin a pass? That's how I read you, perhaps that's my mistake. If so, then I'm happy to abandon this conversation for now..

[Whisp]

20. yep, first thing I thought of too.

sickening, eh?

[itsrobert]

24. correct, the Snowden army

have thrown their lot behind Putin and the Russians.


What's a 'lot'. And why is it thrown?

[arely staircase]

30. dice. lots are dice

I think.

[itsrobert]

31. thanks

that does make sense.

[Recursion]

71. A divination device

Often translated as "dice" in a Roman context (think Caesar crossing the Rubicon), but it was a bunch of pottery shards, some of which were marked. You dropped ("cast&quot one out of a bag and that would tell you your fate, based on which one you picked out and how it landed. Hence "to cast one's lot" becomes "to make a fateful decision". "To cast one's lot with X" is later, probably under the influence of similar phrases ("to hitch one's wagon with..." etc.), though it doesn't particularly make sense from the original context.

[itsrobert]

77. Excellent.

I never asked questions when I was a kid. Thanks to the internet, I am making up for lost time.

[NuclearDem]

4. Iraq, apparently.

[JI7]

10. not When it comes to Israel

[OKNancy]

6. Just a guess

Some pine for the old communist regime.
Russia sheltered Snowden
Putin is misunderstood according to some.
USA is always wrong no matter what.
The US is just as bad.

What bothers me is when people poo-poo their position on gay rights and the treatment of the LBGT community.
I live in knuckledrag Oklahoma and my gay daughter and her gay friends have absolutely no problems here.
They do and go where they want. They live where they want. We have had a large gay-pride parade for many years with no incidents...ever.
For posters to say we are just as bad is disgusting.

[William769]

12. +1.

I just wrote this in another thread. Can't wait to see the responses. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4590694

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. I love the hippy punching

It goes well in these threads.


Do you want an address for the recruiter? Never mind, if this gets near worst case, Uncle Sam will call, as well as the Empire, the Chancellor, and the Republic to name a few. And dutifully, after a good dose of propaganda, they will march off to war, and it will be over by Christmas.



Worst case, well I will kiss my ass goodbye. I call home a strategic target.

[OKNancy]

19. I have no idea what this post is supposed to mean

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Hippy punching textbook example

Some pine for the old communist regime.
Russia sheltered Snowden
Putin is misunderstood according to some.
USA is always wrong no matter what.
The US is just as bad.

You also seem to be hunkering for a war. Well, this is not, I repeat, this is not Iraq, or Afghanistan or El Salvador. The photo is from World War One. Do you realize how many cavalry charges happened across the Eastern Front? Have you ever been in Eastern Europe? I chose a picture of doughboys on purpose, I could have used photos of Cossacks, as rare as they are.

So, since you are doing that, get ahead of the line and call the recruiter.

As to the history of the period, crack up a book. I am not giving any a pass, but spheres of influence and real politic are at play here.

[OKNancy]

29. you are wrong. You did not understand what I wrote

at all. I don't really feel like explaining it at the moment.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. And of course I did not

Please proceed

[OilemFirchen]

49. Emoprogs are not hippies. They're wannabes and posers.

Here's an emoprog hippie-puncher:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4446408

[Aerows]

124. You have to admit ...

"go get fucked with Barry Goldwater's withered zombie dick" was a hilarious line, even if you don't agree with where that post went, or ended up, or whatever it actually meant (I couldn't figure it out, so don't blame me).

[Whisp]

21. best Whoosh post I have seen for a while.

what the Hell?

[arely staircase]

32. well that is the non sequiter of the day. nt

[Skidmore]

34. Wow! How you got whatever that was from

OKNancy's post is beyond me. I too hear the saber rattling being attempted by the neocons that were slapped down. McCain and his associates have attempted to gin it up. There are people in this nation who grew up during the Cold War and still cannot picture geopolitics in any other format than the lines that were drawn by that period of history. The drumbeat is there. Muted, but there. This is all I got from her post.

[OKNancy]

40. The OP asked why some people on DU defend Putin

I tried to make a list of the possible reasons why some do.
Then I posted a short paragraph about my distaste for Putin's stance on gay rights.

-----

My opinion about Ukraine is that Russia is wrong and should stay out of it.
I also believe we should not do anything militarily. I hope for a diplomatic solution.

[Skidmore]

42. I thought you were simply outlining reasons why people seem to be

justifying Putin's actions of late. I heartily agree with you that we should not intervene militarily and I would add that, since this all is occurring on Europe's doorstep, European powers should be stepping up to shape diplomatic solutions.

[Warren Stupidity]

43. what you posted was a very short hop away from calling everyone

who is not saber rattling right fucking now a commie.

Just short enough for plausible deniability.

[OKNancy]

46. do you read LBN much?

my list was made from reading some of the posts there.

If that is what you got out of it, you are looking for something to argue about or something to dislike.
It was certainly not my intent.

I posted about Putin and only Putin.

[William769]

47. Will commie loving homophobic bigots work?

[Warren Stupidity]

54. Yes that was pretty much what was implied.

Thanks for clarifying.

[William769]

63. I just wanted it to be perfectly clear

[Pretzel_Warrior]

58. No hippies were harmed in the production of the post to which

You've responded.

I can tell "hippie punching" as a phrase is starting to take off with DU.

[2banon]

73. Do you think we should launch an attack on Uganda for their "Kill the Gays" policies?

and after that, go after the remaining 37 African countries with similar laws/policies, then maybe Saudi Arabia? If not, why not?

[OKNancy]

89. let's read what I wrote again.

What bothers me is when people poo-poo their position on gay rights and the treatment of the LBGT community.
I live in knuckledrag Oklahoma and my gay daughter and her gay friends have absolutely no problems here.
They do and go where they want. They live where they want. We have had a large gay-pride parade for many years with no incidents...ever.
For posters to say we are just as bad is disgusting.

---

To bother: definition... irritates, rankles, disturbs, worries
How did " it bothers me" become ... "launch an attack" ?

----------------------------------------------
DUers sure are anxious to be in a foul mood and pick fights.

[2banon]

93. my apologies..

I either mis-read your post, or responded to the wrong one. Putin's anti-gay policies are being bandied about as justification to launch an attack on Russia in so many threads, I've lost track..

again, my apologies..

[Fumesucker]

9. Who is "giving Putin a pass"?

I don't see it.

[G_j]

23. Thank you, there appears to be an effort to manufactor a meme

not based at all in reality.

[lostincalifornia]

103. Because most folks here do not believe we should engage with our military in the Ukraine, some

believe that is giving Putin a free pass.

It isn't of course, but as you said that is the manufactured meme

[sibelian]

27. Anyone who thinks avoiding WWIII is a good idea, presumably.

Clearly they must also think homophobia is A-OK.

[Warren Stupidity]

44. oh but the op denies it all.

[Marr]

68. I have to wonder if these people were calling opponents to the Iraq invasion "Hussein lovers"

a few years back.

[Warren Stupidity]

75. well yes, that argument was made. But more recently, Syria.

We all love us Assad. Plus we are big boosters of using chemical weapons, which unlike the weapons we use, cause injury and death.

[LittleBlue]

13. Who are "many"?

Can you post an article supporting Putin from a Western media source?

I'd characterize the coverage as universal condemnation. On Du it's only overwhelming condemnation.

[okaawhatever]

51. No, but there are many articles that have been posted here by Putin propaganda media

sources. Doesn't that speak volumes. RT and RTI/TASS being used for a post in lieu of a more reliable source is disconcerting.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. You mean like Voice of America?

Or you prefer the WMDs are in place New York Times? Free clue, when things get hot, everybody pushes things from their best point of view. Otherwise that is known as propaganda.

[Maedhros]

115. Yes, and a post just went up linking to Fareed Zakaria, who is often criticized for his right-wing

stance (Here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/101686672).

Evaluate the posted materials on their merits and flaws. Attacking a post based upon its source is intellectually lazy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. You know

Not justified, or justified matters little. If those in power want a war, they will get it. At that point the propaganda will ramp up. It will make the Cold War propaganda look tame by the way.

(And for the record, given the loooooonnnnnngggggg history of the Russian bear, which is just waking up from slumber, anybody surprised should crack up a book and read it.

[qazplm]

15. US bad, anyone else good

is part of it to be honest.

Others are just so tied up in yelling "hypocrisy!" that they can't see that even as that is true, it doesn't affect the reality of what's happening or the morality of it or the precedents set or reinforced.

Perhaps the answer is that it's the Europeans that solve it and not us, but it isn't that we did it, so we have to say nothing as Putin does it now.

[sibelian]

96. Hmmmm, maybe

"US bad, Russia not much better and on some issues worse, WWIII probably best avoided" could also be applicable.

[TwilightGardener]

18. There are people on DU who aren't American, and there are some who

are simply anti-American. I don't mean that in a simple freeper love-it-or-leave-it way, but there are many on the left who will automatically align with anyone who will give America the "comeuppance" they feel it deserves, even Putin, even in situations where the US doesn't even have a vital stake (like Ukraine). They will repeatedly insist that America no longer has any moral authority, isn't a superpower, and should just accept a sort of lowered status in the world, and then we will finally have world peace with freedom-champions like Russia and China to balance us out. The right wing is anti-Obama, and also want to see an American comeuppance for simply electing him--so they cheer Putin or China for challenging him, which will reverse when a Repub is in office. Oh, and Snowden. Who must be wondering what is to become of himself in the event of hostilities.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. More hippy punching

Yyyyaaaayyyyy!

Notice, I have "not taken sides." If those in the corridors of power want war, they will get war. And it will be the poor saps doing the killing and dying. You might see that as anti American, my country right or wrong, and all that, it is not...it's reality.

If they don't want war and miscalculate we will get that result too, where the poor saps do the killing and dying while the usual suspects get rich. Now total war, that would be the height of miscalculation, maybe not.

This is not about the people, it is about real politic and spheres of influence.

And yes, people have a right to be critical, they are not being anti American. Sometimes nations deserve it, very much so, in this case well Russia is recreating the Empire, AGAIN!.

Suffice to say, it will be a lot of chest thumping, bad, bad Russia, out of the G-8 and a lot of UN posturing, quietly we might even restore the A-10 program, they have armor. Even reverse the cuts to the force. The MIC is likely thanking Putin right at the moment. Of course that's just in private. In public they are joining the chorus.

But do proceed with the hippy punching.

[TwilightGardener]

38. Quite a leap to go from my reasoning why some defend Russia's invasion

on a Democratic message board to "hippie punching". What I find fascinating are those who rightly condemn America for invading Iraq and yet go fairly soft on the completely unjustified invasion of Ukraine. That is what I mean by the reflexive anti-American sentiment I describe, it's embodied in that hypocrisy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. It is hippy punching

Yesterday we listened to the UN debate, you know what it reminded me off? Just before the Iraq invasion. Just trade places.

Yes, in an ideal world both are wrong. You willing to go to war? It might be a real blast.

We do not live in that ideal world. So if those in the corridors of power want war (insert nation here) they will get it. It matters little what the people want.

And yes, that charge of anti Americanism and my country right or wrong, is hippy punching.

[TwilightGardener]

48. Again, there are people who are anti-American here. That's an observation

of what they post--it's not an accusation, a moral judgment or a patriotic attack on my part. It simply exists. Read the comments on international news websites like the Guardian--anti-Americanism is much more open there, because it's British/international, but it's here too, in much the same language.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. I grew in a country where Yankee go home

Was common and is still in common usage. Has it ever occurred to you that this comes from a long history of American intervention? Of course the more sage also tell the bear to go home for the same exact reasons. Soon it will be Chinese too, outside their usual areas. The driver behind a lot of what is going on in the Ukraine currently is not Yankee go home, but Russians stay out.

If you cannot understand that sentiment, it might be a good idea to learn why it exists. For the record, if Mexico had an Empire, or Canada, it would be Mexicans go home, or Canadians go home.

There is graffiti that has been recovered from the Hadrian wall, as well as Ostraca from Roman soldiers. What was written by soldiers, and what that graffiti said about their presence could be translated to English and just replace Rome for the proper empire. It reads very similar. Oh and gripes from the soldiers are also very similar.

Or perhaps you think we are that exceptional, so did Rome, Athens, the Russians now three times, and a slew of other Empires. Hell, the Gods protected both the Assyrians and Egypt. Now God protects the US...echoes...

See, I will call the hippy punching, I guarantee it. But seriously, history books and primary documents are humbling as well.

[okaawhatever]

52. +10,000 nt

[TransitJohn]

87. Uh, your second and third sentences

sure sound un-nuanced, black-and-white, freeperish to me.

[cali]

22. No one on DU is lauding Putin or defending him.

And you seem to be pontificating on a subject you know little about judging from your expressed concern about Jews in Ukraine. The threat comes from the far right in Ukraine.

And though I certainly don't give Putin a pass, the Crimean occupation by Russia is also a done deal.

[William769]

36. Damn sure fooled me!

[Number23]

126. Not as hard as she's trying to fool everyone else

[Are_grits_groceries]

37. The threat among the Ukrainians for

a stable government is the far right. They have forever been anti-semitic as well as anti-LGBT among others. I am not ignoring that. That is the internal threat and they are one group that the Ukranians have to keep from overtaking the whole government.

However, Putin is a threat too. Is he going to be any more beneficial to them? In addition, the Ukrainian people have to be taken into account or are we only interested in certain groups who are more at risk. They won't be treated well either.

As far as Crimea, that is the first problem. However, the law passed in Russia gave him authority to also use military action in Eastern Ukraine. Putin takes that seriously.

Why do you state the far right is a threat to the Jewish people and others and not think Putin is too? Is that just a given in your statement?

[Warren Stupidity]

45. The far right who's grandfathers did their best to make sure there were

no jews left at all in the Ukraine.

[OilemFirchen]

53. Amen.

The notion that Putin is motivated partly by his concern for Ukranian Jews is mind-boggling.

[Adrahil]

26. I think it boils down to a sort of national self-loathing.

Some here, have built their personal identities around opposing American imperialism, which certainly exists, and expended that into an essential anti-Americanism. I personally think it's an emotional reaction, rather than an intellectual one.

I unrest and it. But I guess I also understand there is a world of realpolitik, which we have to deal with like it or not.

[Are_grits_groceries]

39. I don't like the US mucking about all over the world either

I have no doubt that the US is a hidden hand in all of this. However, Putin has been involved in their affairs from day one. He's not exactly a disinterested party. He mucks about just as much as other countries do.

[Adrahil]

78. Neither do I... but as I said...

I also understand that world is not as idealistic as we might like. The machinations of the world won't stop simply because we choose to ignore them. I know that some, even knowing that, want further disengagement, and not for bad reasons. Imperialism has been a chief cause of international strike and social injustice. But it's NEVER that simple.

[BainsBane]

66. Yes, but what's really strange is they oppose

imperialism and authoritarian surveillance in the US while justifying it by Putin. It seems to be as simple as the US doesn't like Putin, he must be a good guy. Oh, and he gave a home to Snowden.

[Warren Stupidity]

82. who exactly is justifying it "by Putin"?

Is anyone here saying that the events in the Ukraine are a good thing? That the authoritarianism in Russia is a good thing? I haven't read that here. I have read lots of claims that anyone who doesn't toe the line on Snowden Loves Putin. I have read lots of claims that anyone who is against intervention in the Ukraine is somehow supporting Russia's intervention.

Nobody here has said anything remotely like "Putin, he must be a good guy. Oh, and he gave a home to Snowden." That is just dishonest bullshit.

[BainsBane]

88. A lot of people are justifying the former Ukranian government

and seem to think nothing of the fact that they slaughtered 70 people in the streets of Kiev. I was just accused of pursuing a personal vendetta against Snowden for criticizing Putin, when I have never weighed in on Snowden at all other than to say I think the whole issue of reducing issues about NSA surveillance of US citizens to the personalities of Snowden and Greenwald is inane and overlooks what is most important. I've learned that some DUers think if a government is elected they can do anything they want to its citizens, as long as they aren't American. Imagine how people would react if Obama killed 70 protesters outside the White House?

I'm trying to find a quote from last night where someone insisted the pro-Russian elements were representing the 99% vs. the 1%. People have lost their minds.

There is all kinds of Putin apology on these boards. To claim otherwise is absurd. People have not used the exact words you put in quotes, but they defend the guy left and right.

Here are the two major points for many of these folks: 1) Snowden good guy. Anything against Snowden authoritarian. 2) We don't want war. Therefore saying anything critical of the pro-Russian government or the fact Russia has invaded Crimea is "authoritarian" and pro-war, just like George Bush, as one poster just claimed.

So don't blame me that a large number of posters on DU think only in absurd absolutes. That is the very reason I usually stay out of those discussions because they descend into cartoon caricatures almost immediately.

[2banon]

114. I haven't seen any Putin apologists

I have seen one maybe two posts that attempt to put geopolitical history into context to further our understanding of what is the actual historical back story, that a few of us are trying catch up on.. but that isn't the same as being an apologists or supporting Putin's policies or his actions.

[BainsBane]

121. Really?

Not during the period when Putin granted Snowden asylum? You saw no Putin apologists? Someone just said that Russia was liberating the Ukraine. I know that a number of LGBT members have been pissed off about how they've been lectured about being too critical of Russia. I provided links in another thread.

[2banon]

125. I was very engaged during that period

Not myself or any other whistleblower supporter sang the praises of Putin. I personally harbored great concern for his safety there. I didn't expect Putin to grant asylum.. or if he did, that it would be of any other purpose other than to use Snowden as leverage for some other political gain. And that I think is likely the case, I expect Snowden's knows that too, but is not in the position now to do much about it. They didn't think this through, but it is what it is. Supporting Snowden's efforts and his well being is not support for Putin.

I just checked out the links you provided and I don't see that as a lot of Putin apologists. There are a few posts that could be argued as such, but not a lot. And I am quite sure there not many (if any) Putin apologists during that time period last summer. There were a lot of attacks on Snowden and those of us who supported him, were being smeared with as Puty Lovers. It's sort of the same thing going on now.

[2banon]

109. WHO exactly justifies Putin's authoritarian surveillance?

Don't even attempt to suggest Snowden's supporters, because that would be False.

[BainsBane]

110. They are justifying his invasion of Crimea

That is what I call authoritarian.

[2banon]

112. who is "they" ? You mean Snowden?

[BainsBane]

123. No, Duers

Follow this link for links to specific posts. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4592537
Look throughout the subhtread, including at responses to me.

[Starry Messenger]

50. Putin never gets a pass from me

And frankly I think Putin support on this website is rare to none.

Being concerned about the fascist coup in Ukraine doesn't equal Putin supporter.

The whole situation sucks and is full of volatile groups.

[Drale]

55. Apparently because Bush is a War Criminal

the U.S. is never allowed to condemn violence again or at least that's how some loud people feel.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

56. Thank you for being another voice of reason

[OilemFirchen]

59. Some of it derives from the perceived "victory"...

that Putin accomplished over the Syrian crisis. Despite the protestations of many on this thread, there was an abundance of glee at DU that Obama had been one-upped.

[Autumn]

60. Who is giving him a pass? Seems to me he's doing similar to bush.

Oil= invade or move in on false pretext of helping the people. When really, who gives a flying fuck about the people.

[OregonBlue]

62. Because the U.S. is not the world's police. This is not our problem to deal with. The E.U. is much

closer to the situation and should be taking the lead on this one. All we can really do it what we are talking about like economic sanctions, cutting off diplomatic relations, etc. Since when did every fight in the world become ours to solve.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

64. It's weird.

The proper term for understanding what Putin is after is revanchism. It's a putrid mix of ethnic chauvinism and a downright medieval nationalism that has led to all kinds of wars throughout Europe's long and war-filled history.
It belongs to the past, but then so does Putin's whole stupid idea of building Russian strength around their energy resources. The US, to take just one example, now gets 7% of its energy from renewable sources. What's he going to do as this continues to go up here and in Europe and China and Japan and the energy he sells continues to get ever more obsolete? But he of course gives no thought to that.

[Marr]

65. Authoritarians always seem to equate "you don't want my war" with

"you love (fill in the proposed enemy)". They do it every single time.

The answer to your question is that Putin isn't getting a pass, and DU's liberals don't love him.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. + brazillion

[BainsBane]

69. The poster expliictly says they do not support military action

Your comment is nonsensical. How is opposing Russian take over of the Ukraine "authoritarian"?

[Marr]

72. Oh, c'mon-- let's drop the cute little word games.

Everyone claims to "oppose military action". Bush claimed to oppose it in Iraq. It's the policy goal that matters, and your position is the one from which wars are launched, and later lamented through crocodile tears and sad little sighs of, 'we tried to avoid it'.

Everyone claims to want peace. But peace on what terms?

[BainsBane]

76. The problem is your refusal or inabiity to think

in nuance. You see someone see something you don't like and you put them into a category to bad guy. This isn't a Hollywood movie. It's not about one-dimensional bad guys versus good guys. The OP Is not Bush. It is offensive for you to imply he or she is. That you equate concern for Russian intervention in the war with "authoritarianism" and "support for war is ideologically inconsistent.

[hrmjustin]

86. I doubt this nation will get into a war. We do need to stand up for Ukrainian independence

and integrity from Russia.

[Warren Stupidity]

83. it is tiresome.

[TheKentuckian]

70. What pass? What justification?

If that is supposed to be something granted by not beating the war drums then you've lost it and basic knowledge of world history backs that up.

Twenty years ago or even ten nobody would have the gall or the stupidity to suggest we should be taking the big stick to fucking Russia. Nobody, no matter what satellite they rolled on. Now Democrats are playing the roll of brain dead cowboys looking to suicide the planet in an effort to be phony tough and chicken hawk brave.

Folks are starting to sound like Cheney and Bomb, bomb Iran McShame around here, seemingly motivated in no part because they see Putin as giving Obama a black eye in the Snowden situation.
Intresting development is that the some of the most fervent pushers of the sick pony meme against gay folks that steadfastly and unapologetically pushed the administration for their natural rights are all the sudden such rights are the primary filter and most consistently hit talking point.
Not the OP, but some that seem to share the sentiments expressed there. I'm glad they evolved here, a lot of people have, including me had to grow up or stop cowering along some fake middle way but sometime the sped and ferocity of the growth is cause for a double take. Happens so fast that to naked eye it seems like you see the same folks coming and going.

Doesn't really matter in the analysis but I have to admit it is interesting that the last people making excuses now are the first to exploit the emotional leverage as a motivation. The new "women in Afghanistan" perhaps.

No, the real deal is there is little to nothing we can or should do here. That is not a defense of Putin or hating America, it is the reality of the situation in the world. Our sanctions are of little consequence and we do not have the resources to use force to dictate our demands. Russia is not going to give up the strategic need and that deep in their sphere of influence does anyone have the juice to make them at anything like an affordable cost. You think Europe is going to stop buying Russian oil?

There will be some noise, Russia will have to use it's Security Council veto, there will be more noise, and the world will move on because there is no better and actionable option.

What happened to us for busting into Iraq all the way across the world? Far from our natural sphere of influence? Exactly. The world was forced to write us a strongly worded letter and down a steaming hot cup of shut the fuck up.

Sanctions? Europe leading some military or economic action? Really? Better get to waiving that wand and keep it handy because the blowback is going to be epic.

I suggest you ask yourself how we would react to any possible action you suggest/wish for and put it through that filter.

[2banon]

119. Spot On TheKentuckian!

All points, well made..

[stillcool]

80. I'm ignorant.…

and can't advocate for something I know nothing about, or perhaps more important, what the consequences would be for any action taken. It does not interest me enough to take the time and research and I accept no internet/news accounts of what "should" be done. I can't even figure out how to fix the plethora of wrongs done by/in my own country.

[bowens43]

84. its none of our business. We need to stop involving ourselves in every conflict that comes along.

[JoeyT]

92. An entire thread filled with right wing memes. What fun.

We've got unAmerican, Why do you hate America?, the current version of Saddam lover, We Are Always The Good Guys, The US Can Do No Wrong, Communist sympathizer, and many many more. The bingo card filled up rather quickly on this one.

It's amazing how many so-called "progressives", unable to make an argument on its merits, automatically fall back to right wing nationalism. Well, it would be amazing if it wasn't the same bunch doing it time after time after time.

A thread about Putin being a genuinely awful person (Which he is) and invading another country (Which is illegal) is almost instantly hijacked by people hitting themselves and screaming about Snowden. They don't give a fuck about the Ukraine either. All they care about is Snowden went to Russia, Snowden embarrassed Obama, therefore everyone that supported Snowden supports Russia. The universe revolves around Obama, and all world events must be judged by how it looks for Him.

And that's the reason I try to avoid the Ukraine threads, even though I don't like Putin and think what he's doing is illegal and immoral. That and there's a huge overlap between the people yelling war crimes and the people that defend drone striking random weddings, force feeding prisoners, and not prosecuting anyone from the Bush administration for same.

[sibelian]

97. ...

[2banon]

120. Adding my appreciation for your well made points n/t

[1000words]

94. You acknowledge the situtation is not simple, yet ...

your OP is an attempt to frame it in such a way.

[Are_grits_groceries]

102. What is simple to me

is that Putin invaded a sovereign nation. No matter what the pretext, that is undeniable. He is not some good samaritan out to rescue his peeps. He's an authoritarian jackass with no compunction about running over whoever he has to to fulfill whatever grand plan he has in mind.

I'm sure there are many reasons that he wants to invade, but it's because of the goodness of his heart.

I DON'T favor the US taking any military action.
Freeze any and every asset that can be linked to people in that country. Crack own on visas. The elite in that country are rich and not nearly as powerless as some think. That will get a reaction.

Sabre rattling by anybody is not effective unless Putin believes it will be used. Rattle the money at him. It talks everywhere.

The Ukraine is a very complex situation that has to be worked out by them.

[1000words]

104. Putin holds the cards

Your grasp of the situation is limited, in my opinion.

[Are_grits_groceries]

106. I understand the situation just fine.

There are more hidden hands and motives than we will ever know.
There are also many ethnic groups involved with their own causes. Throw in all the strategic and economic assets and you have more reasons.

It is probably neither as complex as you want to make it or as simple as you seem to think I believe it is.

[ProSense]

99. Putin

Peacemaker
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023661265#post5

Stand With Putin
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023654178

[lostincalifornia]

101. Sorry I don't see that. What I do see is that many if not most on DU do NOT believe we should be

involved in a military way in the Ukraine.

Could you provide any evidence where people are showing approval of Putin's actions, because I don't see it

[L0oniX]

116. I am happy to see the opulent Mr 1% Yanukovich thrown out. I'm curious as to why Russia is involved.

Given how the news in general always distorts the truth I am wondering where anyone can get to the truth of the matter at this point in time.

[TwilightGardener]

122. Hold on just one second...are you saying

Putin is the man? Dammit, already auto-removed!