The Putinists have convinced me, Mexico can have legitimate claim to Santa Fe de Nuevo Mexico.

[joshcryer]

If not now, in the not-too-distant future.

The Nuevo Mexico Province was founded in 1598, a full 9 years before Jamestown, and 22 years before Plymouth Colony, yaknow, what we teach our school children as part of American heritage.

Of course, Nuevo Mexico did not come without the subjugation of the longer term inhabitants, the Ohkay Owingeh.

Now, while Latino/Hispanic peoples live in relative harmony with the rest of the current territory known as New Mexico, it is clear that demographically, Latino/Hispanic peoples are the majority. There are 46.3% Latino/Hispanic to 40.5% Non-Hispanic white.

So there you have it, demographically, everything is there. The original Latino/Hispanic inhabitants actually inhabited the territory for far longer than anyone in Putinist defended Crimea. So if we're going by birthright or something, the evidence is stronger. The Latino/Hispanic population subjected the local Indian populations, much like the Putinist defended Russians exterminated and force relocated the Tartars.

And finally, the Latino/Hispanics live in relative harmony with the rest of New Mexico's inhabitants. This is similar to Ukraine, with racial or ethnic divide in Ukraine actually being less than 0.1%. And the majority of the population is more related to Mexico than it is to the imperial fascist United States.

Perhaps if the demographics shift somewhat such secession efforts will be attempted? Who knows?

[1000words]

1. "Putinists?"

[Scootaloo]

2. He's on a roll

Next we'll hear about the time Napoleon bombed 9/11

[1000words]

3. Hope he didn't spend too much time putting this one together

The blue links are pretty.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

48. Wait...

Citing sources in an OP is grounds for ridicule?

[joshcryer]

10. This is quite literally the argument used to defend Putin here.

[Cali_Democrat]

23. I thought Napoleon did attack the World Trade Center and the Pentagon

Was I misinformed?

[joshcryer]

5. Yeah. People believing Putin's Ukraine forays are legitimate.

And those arguing it, on a regular basis, without much logic or reason behind it.

[1000words]

7. Coined that yourself, did you?

[joshcryer]

8. Does it apply to you?

If not I'm not sure what the controversy is.

[Warpy]

12. And that was the most sensible part of the post!

I live in NM and am very aware of it's history, especially the way the Tiguex tribes kicked the Spanish out completely for 18 years and didn't let them come back until they promised to behave themselves and act like a buffer between them and other tribes. They're the only native people who managed to kick Europeans out for any real length of time. Now I know them along with Hispanics as neighbors, coworkers and friends. Any intercultural friction here is like the green chile that gets put into everything, a little heat that makes it all interesting.

Annexing to Mexico would be problematic for a number of reasons but it could be sold here as a way to access the IMSS, the Mexican single payer system.

And since it's a mountainous state with a low population and one of the poorest states in the country, I doubt the Feds would bother much once they'd moved all the incriminating evidence out of Los Alamos and Sandia Labs.

[joshcryer]

16. Disease all but wiped out the Tiguex.

Leaving Santa Fe de Nuevo Mexico ripe for the pickings for Juan de Onate.

[Iggo]

15. Anti-war = Pro-Putin

[reformist2]

19. Seriously now, get a grip.

[Iggo]

20. Just translatin', man. Just translatin'.

[MADem]

27. Anti-War=Pro-G7. nt

[quinnox]

4. Well, that's nice, because the war mongers and Putin = the New Hitler crowd certainly hasn't been

convincing me.

[joshcryer]

6. New Hitler?

Show me those posts, that'd be interesting to see.

He strikes me more of a Bush Jr.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

9. Makes about as much sense as what's going on in Ukraine

This is a naked power grab by Putin. Strike that--it's a shirtless power grab.

[Warpy]

14. Mebbe. mebbe not

The bottom line is that we just don't know what it is yet.

I wonder if the Svoboda nuts are regretting not keeping their mouths shut about wanting ethnic cleansing.

[Lost_Count]

49. It's easy to ho and hum about it...

What is the plan when it is over and done? Lot's of dead people and Russia the de facto ruler of Ukraine?

"Well, gosh, I guess it was. Too late now to do something."

[Warpy]

51. They just had a revolution

Countries SUCK after violent revolutions because nothing works and a lot of evil bastards are all jockeying to get a position at the top of the dungheap. This is why I hope the next revolution here, which has now become inevitable, is a peaceful one.

This is not. our. problem. We're going broke on wars of occupation the last gunslinger started.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Oy,

hey, you forgot to include the Provincia de Alta California there chump. I want that freeway and the Tierra del Raton!!!!

Oy.

[reformist2]

13. Sad. Grim. Pathetic.

[joshcryer]

17. "I actually think the Crimea belongs to Russia."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=742311

"Really? To pretend as if the borders defined in 1918, 1945 or whenever are sacroscanct, is absurd."

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4581882

Not my argument. But I agree.

[LisaL]

18. However legit a claim it might have, it's a safe bet Mexico isn't going to

invade US, isn't it?
Jeez.

[joshcryer]

21. Yes, I am sure Mexico will respect its territorial agreements.

But it's all hypothetical anyway, I'm not advocating this, but the logic of Putin defenders is perfectly analogous to this scenario.

[okaawhatever]

22. I agree with your assessment.I wouldn't worry too much about the Putinistas, my personal theory is

that they'll go away when the PR contract ends.

[King_Klonopin]

30. Yup, it's probably a "hey, look at me flex my pecs !" opportunity for Putin. n/t

[Adrahil]

50. He'll ride into Crimea on a motorcycle, bare-chested and wearing sunglasses. NT

[Democracyinkind]

24. Some people know shit, those who don't must throw it.

Last edited Mon Mar 3, 2014, 05:01 AM - Edit history (1)

It's pretty clear on which side of that this thread falls.

Plus, in about 50 years or so... People will find this ironic...

[Douglas Carpenter]

25. If a vote on reunification with Mexico were held in Sante Fe, New Mexico

- is there even the remotest possibility that a solid majority would vote for reunification with Mexico? If a vote were to be held in Crimea about unification with the Russian Federation - is it likely or unlikely that a solid majority might vote to join the Russian Federation?

Does one need to be a "Putinist" or even sympathetic at all to any side to grasp that there are some nuances in this quarrel?

[joshcryer]

26. Title III of the Constitution of Ukraine.

Article 69. The expression of the will by the people shall be exercised through elections, referendum and other forms of direct democracy.

Article 70. Citizens of Ukraine who have attained to the age of eighteen as of the day of elections or referendums, shall have the right to vote.

Citizens found legally incapable by a court shall not have the right to vote.

Article 71. Elections to the State and local self-government bodies shall be free and shall be held on the basis of universal, equal and direct suffrage by secret ballot.

Voters shall be guaranteed the free expression of their will.

Article 72. The All-Ukrainian referendum shall be called by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine or by the President of Ukraine in accordance with their powers determined by this Constitution.

The All-Ukrainian referendum shall be convened as a popular initiative at the request of at least three million citizens of Ukraine eligible to vote, provided that the signatures in favour of the referendum have been collected in at least two-thirds of the oblasts with at least 100,000 signatures gathered in each oblast.

Article 73. Alterations to the territory of Ukraine shall be resolved exclusively by the All-Ukrainian referendum.

Article 74. A referendum shall not be permitted with regard to draft laws on taxation, budgetary or amnesty issues.

http://www.president.gov.ua/en/content/chapter03.html

How likely do you think that is to happen? Until it does Ukraine will rightly claim Crimea as its own.

The US, of course, does not allow secession, Article IV, Section. 3, Clause 1 of the United States Constitution:

New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new States shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

I'm pretty sure the topic is more about Mexico having a legal, moral, authority to invade the United States.

[Douglas Carpenter]

29. it is fair to say Mexico is not going to invade Sante Fe, New Mexico and if they did, it is fair to

say there would be little or no support among the residence of Sante Fe for reunification with Mexico. I don't think the Russian invasion of Crimea was a good idea - but if the majority of Crimeans think it was - I guess I can understand why they might think that way just as I understand why the majority of Kosovars supported the NATO intervention even though its outcome clearly conflicts with long established boarder agreements as well as the Yugoslavian constitution.

[joshcryer]

33. No doubt they would vote yes, by majority.

Leaving out the some other 42% of non-ethnic-Russians in the territory.

It would likely break somewhat upon demographic lines.

And the elections would take place under military occupation.

I think if Crimea wants to break away they do it under the constitution not by invasion for (Russia refuses to even recognize the Ukrainian Constitution at this point).

[Douglas Carpenter]

38. I agree with you that self-determination for the Crimean people is a not a good idea. Obviously

that is not going to be granted under the Ukrainian Constitution. So the majority of Crimeans are just going to have to accept that is their lot in life. But I can understand why some of them may not want to especially in the current climate.

[King_Klonopin]

40. Also absolutely correct!

The majority of Latinos in northern NM (north of Albuquerque) identify themselves
culturally as Mexican and/or Spanish --not as Americans, per se -- and they have
a thinly concealed disdain for anglo-gringos like me. Can't blame them. It's just
another paradise destroyed by selfish interests. But they stole the place from
the Pueblo and Navajo Indians, so "what goes around, comes around."

George Lopez says that Mexico IS taking back the southwest... via immigration!

[King_Klonopin]

28. As one who was a resident of Santa Fe, I would advise Mexico to waive any and all rights to it

La Villa Real de la Santa Fe de San Fransisco de Assisi (the full name of Santa Fe) *
and much of the surrounding area has been populated and polluted by doosh-bags,
mostly self-centered gringos, who make life insufferable. Too bad though, it's the
prettiest state in the country -- and it was stolen "Northern Territory" of Mexico,
along with Arizona and California.

Then again, Hitler believed Poland, Austria, Alsace-Lorraine, and Czechoslovakia
belonged to Germany... and Stalin believed Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary,
Romania and Yugoslavia belonged to Russia... and Saddam Hussein believed Kuwait
belonged to Iraq... and the British believed that Scotland, Whales and Ireland
belonged to Britain .... it ain't right, but it's been goin' on a long time. Putin is
doing shit that dickheads with power and huge armies are known to do.


* The Royal Village of the Holy Faith of Saint Francis of Assisi (try fitting that on an address label !)

[joshcryer]

31. Best sky nights in the states are on I-25 heading north from Albuquerque.

Midway between Albuquerque and the Colorado state line.

[King_Klonopin]

37. OH MAN, YOU SAID IT

I had a friend who had a house up on a hillside in Questa. Amazing night sky!
We watched the space shuttle orbiting one night. Damn, I miss the place.

(Chaco Canyon was pretty freaky deaky, too.)

[Fumesucker]

32. And Dubya didn't even have *that* fig leaf for invading Iraq

You'd have to go all the way back to Gondwanaland to claim Iraq was ever part of the USA.

I wish the damn Bushistas would give it a rest.

[joshcryer]

34. I can see that thought process. USA = Christian state

Christian radicals like Bush = Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve

Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden

Mesopotamia = Garden of Eden

Iraq = Mesopotamia

Bush was just liberating the Garden of Eden!

[Fumesucker]

43. I thought the Garden of Eden was in Missouri?

[AtheistCrusader]

35. Well, you made a pretty good case that we're getting away with robbery over here.

But, we knew that from the decade the first European settlers arrived.

[joshcryer]

36. And so the beat goes on.

[AtheistCrusader]

39. I think the UN has a case to make some noise about what is happening right now.

I hope it doesn't disappoint you that I am not super excited about the idea of sticking our wangs into yet another godamn civil war.

It hasn't worked out well in the past, just sayin'.

Want to bring diplomatic pressure? There's a UN for that. Unless Russia starts ethnically cleansing the place, I just can't make a solid case for intervention. (Whatever your desire was, not saying you specifically advocated for intervention.)

[joshcryer]

41. I don't think it's as bad as other ventures.

On a scale of occupying adventures. It's just going to be a long term territorial dispute. Ukraine won't acknowledge Russia's claims over Crimea, there will probably be forced relocation of ethnic Ukrainians and Tartar's, same usual crap.

I just worry what happens if Putin goes into Ukraine proper, if he does, then I would support Ukrainians fighting back (but I would not necessarily call for intervention; if the Poles want some action, I might not be against it either, etc).

I think Ukraine doesn't have many options and they're facing austerity and bullshit no matter how it goes. The EU is as bitter of a pill as Russia. I just think if Russia takes the territory and then Ukraine still goes with Russia then you're looking at a trust relationship that starts off on shitty grounds. It'd be like going to the wedding the day after the requited beat you up.

[AtheistCrusader]

42. Here's why I don't trust our judgment here.

Georgia.

We swapped roles with Russia, in Kosovo. When the tables were turned in Georgia, our alliances with Georgia, and our cold war history blinded us to the plain truth of what was happening, and which side we should have been on. We should have been restraining Georgia, not encouraging them. Providing military advisors. Admonishing Russia. Etc.

We were on the wrong side, and it burned us. I don't trust us to get it right this time. I know it's a whole new admin, security/intel teams, all new folks. That part is great, but there's still that cold war spectre that for some god damned reason I can't figure out, keep us from working cooperatively with Russia, and building a friendship...

I know the bush admin can be blamed for a bulk of that, they REALLY took a steaming dump on our relationship with Russia. And that has lasting consequences.



I REALLY hope Poland doesn't get roped into this. Holy shit.

[DFW]

45. Poland has a linguistic affiliation to the Ukraine

The languages are similar, but Poland is Roman Catholic where Ukraine is Orthodox.

Also, the Poles were de facto occupied by the Russians from 1949 to 1989. They are in no hurry to do anything to provoke a repeat performance, and now that they are EU and NATO, neither is Russia. The Poles won't get roped into this unless the EU or NATO is, and beyond some cosmetic economic sanctions, there will most likely be no further "roping" to worry about.

[DFW]

44. The first time, I thought it was a typo. They are TATARS. Tartar is a fatty sauce or raw meat

Depending on whether you're in Boston eating fried clams or (with an "e" on the end) in Paris eating raw beef.

[joshcryer]

46. Ugh, thanks, I think I've been spelling it wrong for awhile now.

That's embarrassing.

To my credit I think Google has been fucking with me.

Wikipedia does claim that it is an "alternate spelling": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartar

[DFW]

47. Dangerous when the one is a common word in your own language, I know

And easy if you have Turkish friends who pointed the difference to me in college out 40 years ago.