How do you solve a problem like Crimea ?

[dipsydoodle]

Vladimir Putin has given a confident performance in front of the media, insisting that the events of the last 10 days in Ukraine amounted to nothing less than a coup d’état. At almost the same time, the US Secretary of State, John Kerry, arrived in Kiev to shore up the new, pro-Western, yet unelected government.

In Crimea, where Russian troops have taken control and faced an ugly stand-off with Ukrainian forces at the Belbek military airbase, the situation is a long way from being under control. The Russians have effectively annexed the region, despite Mr Putin’s protestations to the contrary.

Ukraine’s finances have flirted with the precipice for a month and Washington announced a $1bn aid package; but beyond that, there seems to be little of substance from the West that will ultimately bring a swift end to the stand-off.

In truth the West has very few sticks with which to beat Moscow: the UK Government’s position – seen through a photographed briefing paper on Monday – makes clear that Mr Cameron is hoping others pick up the mantle. But allies in the EU are just as concerned about the supply of cheap energy from Russian gas fields as they are with the future of Crimea, and the US administration under Barack Obama has proven itself over six years to be doveish to the point of being seen as weak in the face of aggression.

Despite the tensions, the Russian military went ahead with the test-firing of a Topol intercontinental ballistic missile. The missile hit a range in Kazakhstan. The US said it had been notified of the test before the crisis began.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-crisis-how-do-you-solve-a-problem-like-crimea-9169236.html

[Scootaloo]

1. Why is it our worry?

I mean beyond basic humanitarian interest, who honestly gives a shit? This whole thing revolves around the same stupid US-Russian brinksmanship that the world thought had been put on ice (hah hah, that's a joke son) back in the 1990's. Tell Putin he can have all the Chernobyl-flavored steppe he wants, and work on keeping our finger in East Asia, where there's shit that matters to US interests.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

2. That's a ridiculously naive position to take

[sabrina 1]

47. Then explain it. Why is every country in the world, especially when oil or other resources

are involved, OUR BUSINESS? We can't seem to take care of our own business, we are bailing out other countries, while people here are in desperate need. So go ahead, who made us rulers of the world?

[Purveyor]

51. {{{crickets}}} eom

[go west young man]

59. He's got a case of that

"American exceptionalism" Putin was talking about. It gives one the right to run the world and make people free...free like all those innocent Iraqis who were freed from their bodies.

[Jenoch]

3. I believe you are foolish in your position.

I got a post hiddn yesterday when I responded with more emotion than I should have used.

Why on earth should we sit by and blindly let Putin take over an independent country without doing anything?

What country should we allow Russia to take over next? Should we look away while Russia overtakes Finland?

[dipsydoodle]

4. Crimea is an autonomous republic of Ukraine.

They are holding a referendum 30th March to determine what their population want. Extending the referendum outside of that area would be as ludicrous as England voting in the Scottish referendum. We will know the result of the referendum in just over 3 weeks.

There is nothing at present to suggest that Russia will encroach further into Ukraine other than speculation in the media and blogs.

[Jenoch]

5. Compairing Crimea to Scotland is not remotely accurate.

[dipsydoodle]

7. The allusion is only with regard to the referendum.

Do you not agree this should be democratically decided by Crimea's own population ?

[Jenoch]

10. I do not.

The Crimea is Ukraine. Should Arizona have are recerendum to decide whether they wish to be independent? How about Hawaii or Alaska?

[dipsydoodle]

11. What any of those you mention should chose to do

is pretty much meaningless to me. I'm Uk.

[Jenoch]

13. You chose an incredibly appropriate user name.

[dipsydoodle]

14. Suggest you search the origin.

P.

[Jenoch]

17. None of the originszseem out of place

[dipsydoodle]

18. Try Larry Clinton

[Jenoch]

30. Try this.

http://www.wisesnacks.com/products/corn-chips/dipsy-doodles.aspx#.UxctO_h5nTo

[AgingAmerican]

36. Attacking someones username

is low and uncalled for

[former9thward]

45. When you don't have anything else...

You reach for anything...

[Adrahil]

26. Frankly, I think Russia poisoned the well.

I think a fair referendum cannot possible be held anytime soon with the specter of Russian forces contesting the results of any election result it doesn't like.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

38. No, absolutely not.

Redrawing borders by referendum and claiming it's democracy is a wonderful piece of sleight of hand.

Most of province A wants to stay in the country.
But most of canton B in province A wants to leave.
But most of city C in canton B wants to stay.
And there's a district in that city where the majority want to leave, and a street in that district where most people want to stay, and Mr Jones who lives on that street wants his house to leave, but his 17-year-old daughter wants her bedroom to stay.

So what actually happens depends entirely on where you draw the lines, which means whoever is in charge gets the result they want and can claim it's the will of the people, for some value of people.

And, if the choice is to redraw borders, the result is usually an upsurge in ethnic and national tensions, often spilling over into violence, and causing a great deal of suffering.

Borders should only be redrawn in extreme circumstances, when a large majority of a substantial region have consistently shown a desire for independence over a considerable period of time, and when the post-independence majority have provided significant guarantees of the rights of the minorities after independence.

One country invading another, staging a referendum and annexing a chunk of territory on the strength of it should be strongly opposed. If Mr Putin really cares about this kind of thing, let him concentrate on giving the Chechens independence first, then start thinking about expanding his borders.

[Adrahil]

12. Wow... It's just amazes me how in the tank you are for the Kremlin...

... Where the heck is it coming from?

I mean, I can understand feeling so negative about the U.S. I don't agree, but I understand, but why so much apologia for The Kremlin?

And there is no way a referendum can be held with so much direct influence from Russia. If the U.S. tried to pull this kind of shit, you would quite rightly call it a thin veil for imperialist expansion.

[Warren Stupidity]

20. So what do you propose?

[Adrahil]

25. I think it's possible to reject American imperialism....

... without assuming anybody else espousing opposition to it is the "good guy." For example, look at all the folks who support Maduro, and claim that pretty much any negative information about him is propaganda, and anyone protesting him must be CIA stooges.

It's possible that America is imperialist AND that Maduro is an incompetent buffoon.

Likewise it's possible that that there are some ultra-RW types on the protester side in Ukraine AND that Putin has his imperial eyes on Eastern Ukraine, especially Crimea.

Too much binary opposition happening here.

[Warren Stupidity]

33. So what do you propose we do about Crimea?

[Adrahil]

34. Exactly what we are doing...

... Diplomatic and economic pressure to force Russia into backing off. The people in Ukraine, including Crimea, need the space to figure out how to deal with things themselves,without the threat of Russian military intervention.

[Warren Stupidity]

44. Well at the moment that amounts to approximately "nothing".

Which is what many of us have been saying is the geopolitical reality of the situation.

It is vanishingly unlikely that Russia is going to allow Crimea to join a Nato aligned western facing Ukraine. We are going to have to accept that fact, like it or not. Having a huge todo over it seems a bit pointless.

[Adrahil]

46. I can't agree.

Although we may not be able to prevent Russia from seizing Crimea, we can should, make it hurt.

[dipsydoodle]

22. Facts as opposed to half truths.

That simple : nothing else.

[Adrahil]

24. Facts ALWAYS have a point a view...

Surely you know that. Or at least you should.

You decide which facts to accept and which to reject. Since you don;t have direct access to any of it, you are making a choice about what point of view to adopt.

For example, in all the apologia for the Kremlin you have to ignore plenty of "facts" that would undermine their role and intentions in Ukraine. And, of course, you have to pretend that Putin ISN'T an authoritarian asshat. You simply choose to reject them.

[polly7]

19. +1000 nt.

[muriel_volestrangler]

28. A referendum when armed Russian troops are stalking the streets

is not a fair referendum.

[Scootaloo]

40. You don't give an argument for why it's our concern

As I said, this is all just the US and Russia engaging in some dick-waving. Useless old Cold Warriors trying to shake the dust off.

Look, it's fucking obvious that the US really does not give a shit about the principle of the matter. If we did we'd be maneuvering against Turkey, Israel, China, Pakistan, Uganda, Azerbaijan, Ethiopia, Armenia, and Morocco as well. Instead we actively arm most of those and happily trade with blind eyes with the remainder.

So again. Why is Ukraine - or more accurately Crimea, as this seems to be the only thing Russia's doing - rocketing to the top of the concern list? As far as i can see it's the stupid-ass Truman-era policy of panicking if Russia gets near water that isn't frozen. That's it. The only interest we have - the only interest we have ever had - in Ukraine is to be a place we can arm against Russia because, gotta keep the Ruskies contained or something.

Let the Russians try to rebuild the USSR - that's the meme, isn't it? I think they'll discover very quickly that the 21st century is a hell of a lot different from the start of the 20th. If by some long shot they succeed, well fuck, just add them to the list of illegal territorial captors that we're buddies with.

[sabrina 1]

49. Because Crimea has voted to become independent of everyone? They asked Russia for help after

armed men from Kiev came to take over their government. They have always been autonomous, why should Unkraine be allowed to take away their independence?

And it IS none of our business. It is of interest to Wall St, but Wall St doesn't run this country, do they?

[Jenoch]

55. Didn't the U.S. agree to protect Ukraine's borders

when they gave up their nukes?

[sabrina 1]

58. I believe that the US, Russia and the UK agreed to respect Ukraine's

right to its independence. Not sure about any of them guaranteeing to protect the country.

[Jenoch]

60. I believe the agreement was to respect the borders of Ukraine.

I too am not sure about to what extent that agreament entails.

I think Russia needs to stay out of all of Ukraine with the exception of their bases in Crimea. When their lease on the Russian Navy bases expires, then the Russian Navy needs to leave Crimea. If Ukraine makes another deal where they get guarenteed natural gas/oil from Russia in exchange for extending the leases on those navy bases, then that agreement ahould be followed.

[sabrina 1]

62. I believe Crimea have expressed their intention to declare their Independence, may already have done

so. They are an autonomous country and appear to feel threatened that the Ukraine intends to annex them as a permanent part of Ukraine.

That is up to them, and I'm sure no one who supported the Kiev protesters would question Crimea's right to prevent any takeover of their territory by declaring themselves to be Independent.

Doesn't seem like much of a problem to me, considering the population there which appears to be a very different culture than Western Ukraine.

[Jenoch]

63. Bullshit.

Russia has some propaganda that may agree with you. There are Tartars who are native to Crimea who definately do not wish to secede and become a Russian territory. There are Ukrainians in the northern part of Crimea who wish to stay a part of Ukraine. There might be some in Crimea who wish to be subjected to Russian rule. Crimea is located in Ukraine.

Crimea is Ukrainian.

Of course there are different cultures in Ukraine. The same can be said of Russia and many other countries.

[sabrina 1]

67. Bullshit? I take you were all 'I support the Kiev protesters right to topple their government

because 'freedom' routine?

I believe a lot of people have been predicting we would see a lot of back tracking regarding that freedom thing and coup attempts etc and here we are.

I doubt there's going to be any way to stop Crimea from going forward with their intention to declare their Independence. The only way to stop them would be for Unkraine, backed by the usual behind the scene suspects, namely NATO, to invade them. That would not be very respectful of their to declare their Independence so I doubt it will happen.

Many people seem to think that Crimea will now separate from Ukraine. No one wants an all out war over something that really isn't worth fighting over. They have DECLARED their Independence. Let's see if those screaming 'freedom' all over the place, respect it.

[Jenoch]

68. You should not presume anything about my positions on this topic.

I am not in favor of a referendum in Crimea as things stand now.

[sabrina 1]

69. I'm just going by your comments. I support Crimea's right to strengthen their autonomy as a nation.

If that is what they want. It's not my country, so I have to respect their decisions for what they believe is right for them. Kiev scared them and so they want to protect themselves. They should not have voted to repeal the language law, eg. That made a statement to Crimea which was not acceptable to them. True it was vetoed, but the message was received. Crimeans didn't like it nor did they like armed men coming to Crimea trying to take their Government buildings. They stopped them, but that too was not a good message to send.

Hopefully everyone will leave them alone ...

[Jenoch]

70. I think the status quo would be the best for everyone.

[frwrfpos]

53. you havent a clue about Ukraine or its history

I suggest you educate yourself before you speak

[Jenoch]

56. I have actually been to Ukraine.

I have dozens of cousins living there. My great uncle was executed in his front yard by Russian soldiers.

[Warpy]

6. You hope to stay the fuck out of it.

Crimea was ceded to Ukrania because Russia knew it was largely indefensible and would have cost a fortune to keep.

Putin has badly miscalculated here. Instead of rushing troops in, pre emptively protecting Russians who were not under attack, he might have offered assistance in helping the country to transition peacefully now that Yanukovych has fled with all his ill gotten gains.

I think he realizes this but it's now too late.

[stevenleser]

15. The 1994 Budapest memorandum precludes the US and the UK not being involved in some way.

Ironically, Russia has forced us to prove we honor our agreements by breaking theirs. France and China are on the hook somewhat as well.

We basically said, we are going to support the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine giving up their nuclear weapons.

The credibility of all signatories is at stake here. Why would you sign a treaty of any kind with any of the signatories if they are not going to live up to their agreements?

Fortunately, it has been said that the memorandum does not require actual military aid. But we are not able to stay out of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances is an international treaty signed on 5 December 1994, providing security assurances by its signatories in connection to Ukraine's accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The Memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear-powers, the Russian Federation, the United States of America, and the United Kingdom. China and France later gave individual statements of assurance as well.

The deal included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine as well as those of Belarus and Kazakhstan. As a result Ukraine gave up the world's third largest nuclear weapons stockpile between 1994 and 1996.

Following the 2014 Crimean crisis, the US stated that Russian involvement is in breach of its obligations to Ukraine under the Budapest Memorandum, and in clear violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity

Under the treaty, the signatories offered Ukraine "security assurances" in exchange for its adhesion to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The memorandum bundled together a set of assurances that Ukraine already held from the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe (CSCE) Final Act, United Nations Charter and Non-Proliferation Treaty. The Ukrainian government nevertheless found it politically valuable to have these assurances in a Ukraine-specific document. [7] [8]
The Budapest Memorandum was negotiated as a political agreement. It refers to assurances, not defined, but less than a military guarantee of intervention. According to Stephen MacFarlane, a professor of international relations "It gives signatories justification if they take action, but it does not force anyone to act in Ukraine.

[Warren Stupidity]

21. Clearly Russia doesn't care about that treaty. So, what do you propose to do about it?

[stevenleser]

23. That is a question for another thread or OP. I am responding to Warpy's assertion.

What is your position on the Budapest agreement?

[Warren Stupidity]

32. Nope it's your turn. What do you propose

Should be done about Russia's actions in Crimea?

[stevenleser]

35. I already had a turn. You are the one who hasn't weighed in yet. You're next. nt

[pampango]

73. We acknowledge Crimea as a part of Russia in exchange for a new treaty recognizing the sovereignty

and territorial integrity of the rest of Ukraine. With a large chunk of the pro-Russia, anti-EU voters removed from Ukraine it is likely to become very "European" in the future. Recognition by Russia of its national sovereignty and territorial integrity with the new borders would be a big concession from its powerful neighbor.

I realize that recognizing the "legitimacy" of a bully's military conquest carries a big risk of incentivizing such behavior in the future and may not provide much more protection for Ukraine than the 1994 treaty provided. I doubt that any American or European diplomat will propose anything like this in the near future, but it is a thought. It may not be a particularly good thought but I'm not sure how many 'good' thoughts there are out there.

[Democracyinkind]

8. Let the Crimeans vote under heavy international observation and accept whatever they might chose. nt

[global1]

9. Sorry - I Need To Get Some Sleep - I Thought This Was A Post About The Sound Of Music......nt

[ucrdem]

16. Climb every mountain until you find your dream?

Putin is probably playing his cards correctly by responding to a rather obvious provocation foisted by the usual suspects for the usual reasons. What would he gain by playing nice? Nothing particularly. But he has a lot to lose.

[Motown_Johnny]

29. that is how you solve a problem like Maria

Oh wait, no it isn't. Never mind.

[ucrdem]

41. LOL

p.s. Salzburg is lovely this time of year, Vienna too . . .

[Maedhros]

57. Nah, West Side Story:

PUTIN:
(spoken)
Crimea . . .
(sings)
The most beautiful sound I ever heard:
Crimea, Crimea, Crimea, Crimea . . .
All the beautiful sounds of the world in a single word . .
Crimea, Crimea, Crimea, Crimea . . .
Crimea!
I've just grabbed a place named Crimea,
And suddenly that name
Will never be the same
To me.
Crimea!
I've just hunkered down in Crimea,
And suddenly I've found
How wonderful a sound
Can be!
Crimea!
Say it loud and there's music playing,
Say it soft and it's almost like praying.

Crimea,
I'll never stop holding Crimea!

The most beautiful sound I ever heard.
Crimea.

[Demo_Chris]

27. Just over half a century ago....

The Russian people experienced an atrocity virtually unmatched in American history. The bore the demonic brunt of Hitler's war and genocide machine, over twenty Million Russians lost their lives and the industrial foundation of their nation was shattered. They were saved by the incredible valor and dedication of the Russian people, breathtaking tactical and strategic decisions by the Soviet commanders, and their foundation and breadbasket in the Ukraine.

Where many posting here grew up in the Breakfast At Tiffany's, Leave it to Beaver world of the west, their similarly aged counterparts in Russia grew up in the wreckage of that war. And more, they faced the looming threat that the west wanted to do it to them again. Not as some kind of understandable but flawed post-war paranoid delusion, no we really did want to do just that. Nazi Germany might be gone, but the Fascists were alive and gathered on their borders pointing nuclear tipped missiles their way. For the Russian people the war never ended, it was just a cease fire. They raised their children in the rubble, scraping by and funneling their wealth into trying to rebuilt their infrastructure and match the west militarily. The saw the propaganda our media was spewing and unlike us they understood it, just as they really understood the cost of war.

Today some of this has changed, but one thing has not: the Russians are NEVER going to allow the west to control the Crimea. They have a vital national interest in keeping it safe, and they will never let it slip away. They might not believe that we still want to attack them, but that doesn't make them imbeciles. They would no more give up the Crimea than we and our Novel prize winning President. would allow a foreign superpower control over the Panama canal or New Orleans.

Obama understands this of course. Let me cut to the chase... they have critical national interests on the line, the only thing we have riding on this is our egotistical fascist need to tell everyone else on earth what they can and cannot do. Russia isn't invading countries all over the place, we are. Nor are they randomly slaughtering families across the middle east, that would be us as well, and our Nobel prize winning President.

Some here seem to seriously want war. Or rather, more war. My message to you is simple: fuck off. Seriously.

[polly7]

39. +1000000000000000000000 nt.

[Catherina]

42. Well said n/t

[go west young man]

61. Nice to see..

that some folks over here are taking the time to consider the Russian perspective instead of just being nationalistic and trying to regenerate the Cold War. Good on ya.

[Demo_Chris]

64. My hope is that, with the internet, the age of nationalistic ignorance is over. nt

[Motown_Johnny]

31. Free and fair elections in Crimea on independence and joining the Russian Federation

(assuming they first vote to no longer be part of Ukraine)


Odds are they will vote to break away from Ukraine and then later vote to join the Russian Federation.

So long as the process is free and fair then there isn't really a problem.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_autonomy_referendum,_2014


^snip^


A referendum on status within Ukraine is scheduled to be held in Crimea on 30 March 2014 which was originally set for 25 May 2014 but pulled forward amidst tension in the region.[2][3] The referendum was approved by the Supreme Council of Crimea on February 27, 2014 but the Central Election Commission of Ukraine denounced it by stating that the Crimean authorities do not possess the legal jurisdiction to conduct it.[4] Regarding the referendum's purpose, The Daily Telegraph reported on 27 February 2014 that it, "appears to be for greater autonomy within Ukraine rather than for full independence.

[AgingAmerican]

37. Is it just me or

is Putin using the same 'justification' to invade the Crimea that Hitler used to invade Poland, to protect the ethnic population?

[SidDithers]

43. I'm gonna rec purely for the thread title...

Now I've got Sound of Music running through my head.

Sid

[Puzzledtraveller]

48. Crimea river

It's none of our business.

[Drew Richards]

50. Bomb Iran...

At least that's what mcgrumpy says...

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=video+mccain+singing+bomb+iran&FORM=VIRE1#view=detail&mid=04618717CA92F16C85C204618717CA92F16C85C2

[yourout]

52. How do you hold a moonbeam in your hand?

http://www.rnh.com/videos.html?video=208&gallery=41&vpg=3

[Benton D Struckcheon]

54. First of all, the stupid crap about war needs to stop.

There is only one country that has put armed men in Crimean territory to which they have no legal right, and only one country that wants someone, anyone, to shoot something somewhere so they have a justification for their actions.
Ukrainian soldiers have very wisely not fired a single shot at anyone. As long as that continues to be the case, that straw man will burn.
Even if Ukrainian soldiers shoot, it'll still be a straw man, because the US didn't cause any of this. I got no beef vs Yanukovich, or however you spell that name, and no beef against Tymoshenko either. According to what I'm reading, they deserve each other as far as corruption goes.
For the rest, the US is involved because of that Budapest Memorandum. We certainly don't covet Sevastopol. The US was holding cooperative exercises and engaging in all kinds of other forms of normal cooperation with Russia before these events.
Russia's economy is one sixth China's. Its population is half ours. We export very little to them, and import very little from them. No one in the US considers them a threat, except maybe for idiots like Palin and McCain. They're in a completely different world from us and we only have to consider them because they're on the UNSC for historical reasons.
There is nothing the President and the rest would love more than to forget they exist, because that's about how important they are. The delusional articles about this uprising being some sort of Western plot are laughable.
And really, cut the war straw man. Ukraine and Russia may eventually shoot at each other, but no one else is getting involved. Some stuff is getting moved to Poland and the Baltics cuz they're getting nervous. Can't imagine why. They ain't gonna shoot first any more than Ukraine is cuz none of them want to give that fool in Moscow an excuse for his incoherent ravings.
Putin's got a ton of excuses for his actions, but there's no excuse for any of the people who apologize for him.

[go west young man]

65. You must of missed this part of the Independents story.

"Vladimir Putin has given a confident performance in front of the media, insisting that the events of the last 10 days in Ukraine amounted to nothing less than a coup d’état. At almost the same time, the US Secretary of State, John Kerry, arrived in Kiev to shore up the new, pro-Western, yet unelected government."



As far as incoherent ravings go, why don't you watch the video for yourself instead of lapping up all the propaganda the US media is giving you. I was embarrassed for all those people that so quickly drank from that well yesterday. There was no incoherence. Obviously none of those people were aware that every Putin press conference is similar the video. We Americans need to dig deeper than the easy to consume drivel we are being spoon fed. Research info ourselves and not really on our crap media. Sadly i also saw left leaning sites jumping on that stupidity wagon. A sad bit of herd mentality.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2014/03/04/full_video_vladimir_putin_holds_press_conference_on_ukraine_crisis.html

As far as Putin being a fool you may want to check the CIA Factbook on Russian economic growth since he came to power. I'm pretty sure a fool couldn't have turned around a broken country of 155 million people. Feel free to label me as a Putinista or apologist or whatever you like but you really should do some research first and provide some info that truly does spell out your case. Otherwise you just seem emotional and not much else.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

71. My point was simple: talking about war is a straw man.

That's number one.
Number two, international law counts. If it counted for Dubya, it counts for Putin.
As for Putin's incoherence, he rambles incessantly about everything, because no one questions him. Ever watched him in front of a bunch of "intellectuals" talking about Russian issues, in Russia? I have. He goes on and on and on and on and on... It's painful to watch.

[go west young man]

74. He gives 3 hour open press conferences

where anyone can ask a question. It might be tedious for Americans because we prefer our news condensed into 10 second snippets that don't require any thought for ourselves. European leaders actually give long press conferences and freely answer all questions. Putin is just one of them. Can you get any more simplistic?

[Benton D Struckcheon]

75. If you actually looked at what I wrote,

I referred to him talking to a buncha his peeps in an "intellectual" forum.
So this makes how many stabs at justifying his behavior now? BUT you're not an apologist, right? Gotcha.

[go west young man]

77. I get called an apologist for Putin

all the time. It's a name used to denigrate one's argument when other posters can't win a debate based upon merit. It doesn't bother me. The irony is that those who use that term are obviously basing their opinions upon a nationalistic (Russia vs the US) viewpoint. You need to dig a bit deeper than that if you want to win any arguments.

[hrmjustin]

66. I guess new elections.

[LWolf]

72. I don't.

I try to solve the many problems sitting right here in my lap at home, work, and my local community. There's enough of them to last a lifetime.

[1awake]

76. Sorry... but I almost read your title in song replacing Crimea with Maria! I need sleep! nt