Dear Mr. Putin: Crimea can have a referendum on independence right after Chechnya gets one

[ProSense]

Dear Mr. Putin: Crimea can have a referendum on independence right after Chechnya gets one

by Ian Reifowitz

<...>

The regional legislature of Crimea voted today to secede from Ukraine and join their territory to Russia, and to put the matter to a referendum in ten days' time. Ukraine's interim Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk rejected the legitimacy of the Crimean parliament's actions, calling it "an illegitimate decision," and adding "Crimea was, is and will be an integral part of Ukraine." According to Justice Minister Pavlo Petrenko, only national referendums are allowed by the Constitution of Ukraine, therefore a regional one is unconstitutional.

Only two days ago, Vladimir Putin said that Russia will not be "annexing" Crimea. OK, but he certainly didn't say anything about opposing Crimea's secession. In any case, if you think the pro-Russian Crimeans aren't acting at the behest of the President of Russia, well, I've got some property on a Black Sea beachfront to sell you.

And if Vladimir Putin thinks regions should have the right to secede from their countries, that's certainly a shift. I guess it means we'll be hearing the announcement of a referendum in Chechnya on their independence from Russia. Any second now.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/06/1282605/-Dear-Mr-Putin-Crimea-can-have-a-referendum-on-independence-right-after-Chechnya-gets-one

[Tommy_Carcetti]

1. It's not even an independence referendum.

It's a referendum on Russian annexation.

[ProSense]

3. The point is about a referendum. The text clearly discusses the annexation. n/t

[ProSense]

2. Kick! n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. No doubt the referendum will fail. Won't it?

[ProSense]

5. Why would it? Bush won. n/t

[okaawhatever]

6. If they wanted this so bad why didn't they ever vote for it before they were invaded by Russian

troops?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

7. Well, they seem to want it now.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

11. And Quebec wants to leave Canada

And Alaska wants to leave the U.S. and Basaue region wants to leave Spain and Scotland wants to leave U.K.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

13. And, we wanted to leave Great Britain.

And, Mexico wanted to leave Spain. And, Ireland wanted to leave the UK.

Want to continue?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

15. All did or will involve a war--not a vote

Territories within a sovereign nation don't get to just vote on it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. Yes. It would be far too democratic to have people vote to determine their own fate.

We should leave it to our betters.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

19. So you believe Civil War was the war of Northern Aggression

Got it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. No. I don't. Do you?

Do you believe that the revolution was not an act of self determination?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

21. Some revolutions succeed and some fail. Obviously, Crimeans have no standing

To vote themselves out of Ukraine and into Russia. There will be war before that occurs.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. Why do "Crimeans have no standing"?

Does that also go for Ukrainians? Croatians? Slovaks? Czechs? Scots?

[former9thward]

27. Crimea has been part of Russia since Russia began.

It was taken from the Russian Republic and 'given' to the Ukrainian Republic by Khrushchev -- who was an Ukrainian himself-- in 1954 when it really didn't mean anything since everyone was under the Soviet Union.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

28. I am well aware of that. 1994 treaty and accords recognized

Current Ukrainian territory including Crimea as Ukrainian. That for sure takes precedence on how the matter should be viewed legally and by the international community.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

32. Actually no

Crimea did not become part of Russia till 1783. At that time the predominant ethnic group was the Tatars who remained so till Stalin had them expelled.

[former9thward]

34. So Crimea has been part of Russia for longer than every U.S. state.

I think Russia has a much better claim on the region than does Ukraine. Almost all of Ukraine was given to it by various Soviet dictators. Before the Soviet Union Ukraine was a very small area.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

35. Borders have been pretty fluid but

I suggest you reread what I posted. The Tatars were the predominant ethnic group till WWII. How does that translate into Russia having a bigger claim?

[former9thward]

36. So give it to the Tatars?

Ukraine loses either way. Do we give back the U.S. to the Natives?

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

37. Scroll back to your original comment #27

[former9thward]

38. I did. So?

My point is that Russia has a much better claim on Crimea than Ukraine does. It has been part of Russia for hundreds of years. It, like most of Ukraine, was given to Ukraine by a communist dictator who had no right to do it.

[okaawhatever]

22. Oh sure they wanted it, I'm sure they all wanted to have the doors to the council blocked with

Russian sub-machine guns and only allow pro-Russian party members inside. They wanted it so bad, they held a vote in the military occupied building without any oversight and without notification of members who weren't pro-Russian. It is unknown if the 64 they claim were present were actually present. Those aren't the actions of government officials acting in the best interest of their voters.

You can kid yourself if you want, but don't insult those of us who are paying attention.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. Well, if that's the case, then the referndum will certainly fail.

[okaawhatever]

25. Sure, because honest votes happen when there's a gun to your head. What a sickening

statement.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

26. And, you know that how?

[sabrina 1]

8. Was there an election, a referendum in Ukraine? Note the policies this 'new' government is pushing

on the people there, despite not being elected. Enslavement to the IMF and World Bank. Did the people approve of this?

How about a little consistency here, if you supported Kiev, without an election, surely you can't claim not to support Crimea, without an election?

[ProSense]

9. Well,

"Was there an election, a referendum in Ukraine? Note the policies this 'new' government is pushing on the people there, despite not being elected."

...pushing the official and ever-changing Russian version of events isn't reality.

4. Mr. Putin says: Ukraine’s government is illegitimate. Yanukovych is still the legitimate leader of Ukraine.

The Facts: On March 4, President Putin himself acknowledged the reality that Yanukovych “has no political future.” After Yanukovych fled Ukraine, even his own Party of Regions turned against him, voting to confirm his withdrawal from office and to support the new government. Ukraine’s new government was approved by the democratically elected Ukrainian Parliament, with 371 votes – more than an 82% majority. The interim government of Ukraine is a government of the people, which will shepherd the country toward democratic elections on May 25th – elections that will allow all Ukrainians to have a voice in the future of their country.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2014/03/222988.htm
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024612455

[sabrina 1]

10. You seem more familiar with the Russian version than I am. I am following events as they happen

and speak for MYSELF. I don't need any talking points to notice inconsistencies when I see them. I asked why, considering there is no referendum on the policies now being decided without an election, on behalf of millions of people, whose views no one knows regarding being enslaved to the IMF and World Bank, if you support Kiev operating without a referendum, you would not support the Crimea operating without a referendum.

It's really a simple question, no need for diversions or false accusations 'you love Saddam' routine nonsense, just a simple answer. What's the difference?

[ProSense]

12. You were in Ukraine? n/t

[sabrina 1]

14. You were in Crimea?

Are we in kindergarten? I got my answer btw, there is no difference. Thanks ....

[ProSense]

18. No, but I'm not pushing the version of events that comes straight from Putin propaganda. n/t

[sabrina 1]

29. Nulan was working for Putin when she was caught planning to replace the elected president with

the guy she wanted, (they did btw) in a country where we are not supposed to have any interest?

Did Putin arrange for the US to guarantee billions in loans to Ukraine also?

I'm trying to figure out why you keep talking about Putin, what role you think he played in US Officials planning the overthrow of Yanukovich? Did he invite two US Senators to go to Kiev in December and pose with the Neo Nazi party there? THAT I might believe, he set them up for a photo Op with the Neo Nazis??

Can you explain what it is you are trying to tell us, because I can't figure out what you're trying to say.

[ProSense]

31. LOL!

[amandabeech]

16. For once, I agree with you. n/t

[Cha]

30. thanks ProSense~

[Cha]

33. Kick!