The same people who claimed the rebels used chemicals in Syria are now pushing Putin propaganda.

[ProSense]

Those same people who were using dubious sources, a lot of them RW hacks or conspiracy sites, to absolve Assad are now doing the same thing with Putin.

They were questioning Kerry's motives then too. Syria violated international law, and in the end agreed to give up its chemical arsenal.

I'm following a fascinating series of comments in a pro-Putin, anti-Hillary diary: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/06/1282523/-The-Guardian-Western-Expansion-Aims-Helped-Put-Fascists-And-Neo-Nazis-in-Power-in-Ukraine

Pro-Putin:

Some may be fascist or even neo-nazis, but what they are not is insane or stupid.

Yeah, in the same way anti-gay racists are not "insane or stupid"

"Putin or Kerry: Who’s Delusional?"

Anti-Putin

"Kerry hasn't sent troops into Ukraine, Putin has."

Didn't Angela Merkel Also Say after a conversation with Putin that he seems to have lost touch with reality?

Neo-nazis in Russia

If Putin cares so much about stopping the rise of fascists and neo-nazis that he would preemptively invade a neighboring sovereign country, then why does he allow such groups to operate openly and freely within Russia?

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/feb/11/russia-violent-anti-gay-groups-vkontakte-lgbt-sochi

Could it be that the fascist/neo-nazi angle is the excuse, not the reason?

The bizarre thing about Kremlin propaganda is that they throw all kinds of slurs at the Ukrainians.

One day, it is "Gayropa" that is at fault.

The next day it is a Jewish conspiracy.

And then it is Neo-Nazis and fascists.

If the Ukrainian revolt is driven by gay, jewish, Neo-Nazis, then Ukraine sure must be an interesting country.

I thought we were against false equivalency here.

But that's exactly what this is. "The other side has some bad elements also, and the West has some blame...

...so it's okay that Putin has invaded another country."

There's neo-Nazis in Ukraine therefore it's cool that snipers were shooting unarmed civilians engaging in public protest.

I see what you did there

Threw up a bunch of persiflage in order to get some strokes from Hillary haters. And bizarrely, after months upon months of raging against the obviously fascist dictatorship of Obama you tell us you're willing to entertain an open mind about the reign of Putin. Extra marks for novelty and entertainment value.

It's wonderful perspective. The pro-Putin comments are eerily similar to the RW's stance that Obama is a fascist/Nazi, but Putin is cool.

In the view of the pro-Putin so-called progressives, the Obama administration is supporting neo-Nazis (pure lunacy), which is why Putin's invasion is justified. Invading a country is cool. Also, never mind Putin's horrible record and actual support for laws that deny human rights, promote hate and trample on free speech and freedom of the press.

Obama is the fascist, therefore Putin is right.

[ProSense]

1. Kick! n/t

[Cha]

2. Kick!

[pampango]

3. You obviously do not watch enough Russia Today, ProSense.

[JI7]

4. conspiracy theories, if the US was supporting Putin and/or Assad they would have

the opposite position.

[ProSense]

12. Yup. n/t

[BainsBane]

5. The common thread seems to be

The enemy of my country is always right. I can't help but think there is some Freudian issue at work.

[Cheese4TheRat]

37. As opposed to my country is always right.

Some people can actually decide right from independent of the politics.

It is actually possible to determine that both Putin and Bush follow the same doctrine of invade first, justify later. And you don't have to like either one of them.

It is equally possible to recognize the absurdity of stating nations don't invade other nations in the 21st century when the outraged country did exactly that. And you can still support the President, despite the absurdity of the situation.

[ProSense]

46. You wanted Kerry to say: "We urge you to withdraw from the Ukraine and adopt the Obama Doctrine."

Speaking of "absurdity."

[Cheese4TheRat]

47. Better than denying reality.

But yeah, the Drone Doctrine is assenine as well. So good point.

[Number23]

6. Surely you're not surprised?

Obama is the fascist, therefore Putin is right.

That sums it up cleanly.

And bizarrely, after months upon months of raging against the obviously fascist dictatorship of Obama you tell us you're willing to entertain an open mind about the reign of Putin.

Logic is not a strong suit with this group. The only thing consistent with them is the first point from you that I highlighted in bold. Wonder how they'll respond to NATO and the EU's response to Russia?

[DesMoinesDem]

7. ProSense accusing people of pushing propaganda.

[ProSense]

8. Yeah, right? After all,

"ProSense accusing people of pushing propaganda."

..."propaganda" is anything I post:

Russia: Freedom of expression falls victim to the dramatic events in Ukraine’s Crimea

The detention of hundreds of anti-war protesters over the weekend is another manifestation of the increasing crackdown on the freedom of expression and assembly in Russia, Amnesty International said.

Today a Moscow court also ordered the detention of two protesters for five days on administrative charges.

“The government’s crackdown of the anti-war protesters is highly alarming. In a number of cities people have been targeted for taking part in demonstrations. This is state-sanctioned harassment and intimidation,” said Sergei Nikitin, Director of Amnesty International’s Moscow Office.

“The Russian authorities are obliged to respect the rights to freedom of assembly and freedom of expression. They must immediately and unconditionally release the two imprisoned protesters whom Amnesty International considers to be prisoners of conscience.”

- more -

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/russia-freedom-expression-falls-victim-dramatic-events-ukraine-s-crimea-2014-03-03

More:

Obama: Crimea Referendum Would Violate International Law
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024617772

[JDPriestly]

35. If we play unwaveringly in the same key all the time, we should expect to be accused of

one-sided advocacy if not propaganda.

That goes for the ever anti-Obama, ever-pro-anyone-who-disagrees-with-America crowd.

Putin wants to play the big military power card. Kerry, who has actually seen war and knows its ugliness says, "Let's talk," and Putin brings his soldiers before giving diplomacy a chance.

Putin is clearly overstepping here.

Would the US and European powers like to see the Ukraine join their alliances in time? Yes.

But as I understand it the expression on the streets was in great part a reaction to the terrible corruption in the ousted government. I understand that the Ukraine will hold elections or try to hold them in May.

If you watch the movie, Putin's Kiss, you learn that anyone who opposes Putin's views on something is called a fascist. That the Russians refer to the demonstrators in the Ukraine as fascists is meaningless. It's a term that the Putin government's supporters sort of throw around for anyone who disagrees with them.

Sort of like on DU when people are dismissed as pro- or anti-Obama without consideration for nuances or specific issues.

Classing people as pro- or anti- and then dismissing them for their audacity in actually thinking through positions on specific issues is just what Putin and his thugs do.

It's an all-or-nothing point of view. And it doesn't lead to responsible policies or relationships between different factions in a country. We see that in the Republican Party all the time. Each faction demands total agreement with it.

I hope things work out well for the Ukraine as they have in some of the other previously satellites of the USSR. Patience and low-key negotiations are the answer.

Kerry is very good at this. I believe he will succeed in dealing with Putin in a firm but strong way.

[ProSense]

40. Thanks for

"If we play unwaveringly in the same key all the time, we should expect to be accused of one-sided advocacy if not propaganda. "

...your comment, but no thanks for the innuendo. Clearly, you understand the difference between supporting a policy and "propaganda."

No one is claiing that being pro- or anti- a policy is "propaganda." It's patently absurd to claim that posting articles about the positive impact of the health care law is "propaganda." It would be equally absurd to claim that anyone posting articles in support of single-payer over Obamacare is "propaganda."

[JDPriestly]

48. Our posts speak for themselves.

[pampango]

9. You agree with the message but question the messenger? n/t

[DesMoinesDem]

10. I didn't read past the headline. I don't read her posts.

Usually I just skip right past ProSense's propaganda posts, like most people, but this one had the word propaganda in the title. When the pot calls the kettle black, I stop and laugh.

[ProSense]

11. LOL!

"I didn't read past the headline. I don't read her posts. Usually I just skip right past ProSense's propaganda posts, like most people, but this one had the word propaganda in the title. When the pot calls the kettle black, I stop and laugh."

So you got called out, and the only thing you could come up with to CYA is to pretend you don't alway hijack my threads?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024223612#post8

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024335397#post5

[DesMoinesDem]

15. I try my best to not comment in your threads

but sometimes the propaganda is so strong I have to call you out. hurts me to bump your threads. You are always kicking your own threads. I don't know why you do it, but the only reason I would kick my own thread is if I was being paid by views or posts to my thread.

[ProSense]

17. "I hurts me to bump your threads."

"I" sure it does.

[DesMoinesDem]

18. Oh you got me good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll edit my error just for you.

[ProSense]

20. "hurts me to bump your threads"

Thanks for the "bump."

LOL!

[DesMoinesDem]

22. No problem. Kick!

Now that this thread is about your propaganda and not about whatever your OP says (still haven't read it) I see no problem with it.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

27. See #12 of Top 20 signs you might be a counterproductive left wingnut

See if you can see anyone like that anywhere around here, DesMoines.

Here's a helpful reference: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023707888

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[DesMoinesDem]

28. I guess my use of the ROFL guy went right over your head. I only use it to mock people.

It's the BOG's goto icon. ProSense uses it for most arguments.

[bahrbearian]

29. Yep, Look down one post.

[Jamaal510]

49. That was

one of the best threads I've ever seen on this site. And I say this as a staunch progressive Dem.

[Number23]

51. I'd forgotten about that. The only thing better than that OP was the unending wails that it provoked

[ProSense]

52. The reference to

Nader is especially useful given this:

Nader sends Bernie an unpleasant, sneering letter.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024618995

[SidDithers]

13. ...

That's weak.

Sid

[treestar]

58. If you didn't read it, your comment is useless

[truth2power]

14. That is rather ironic, isn't it? n/t

[ProSense]

16. No, it's lame, and so is that. n/t

[Rex]

19. Pretty obvious...seems to be painfully obvious.

I think it has to do with sheer volume and not content, but I could be wrong.

[ProSense]

23. Distractions and

distruptions.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024420929#post26

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024420929#post32


"I think it has to do with sheer volume and not content, but I could be wrong."

I wouldn't say "wrong," more like not making much sense.

[Rex]

24. Thanks for verifying that I was right about volume and not content.

Nice projection there Pro, you just don't even notice anymore I bet.

[ProSense]

26. LOL!

"Nice projection there Pro, you just don't even notice anymore I bet."

You seem to think you can go around posting disruptions and insults with no expectation that you'll be called out.

"Nice projection"? No, you got called out, and now you're playing the victim.

LOL!

[frwrfpos]

50. projection is the right wings speciality

notice their lust for killing Syria just like Libya. Ask them How Iraq or Libya is these days and you wont get an answer.

Shit, they are still pissed the US didnt attack Iran yet. And now the CIA goons and the neo nazi clowns they support are fucking over Ukraine. The fascists never rest, and neither does the propaganda.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

39. Snarky, haughty, dismissive, superior and aloof

Love me, love me, love me. . .you're a liberal. The type Phil Ochs sang about.

[woo me with science]

53. You win the thread.

Oh my WORD.

[ProSense]

54. What no photo of policemen with Obama's face photoshopped on one of them.

The main "propaganda" pusher resorts to smilies, and look they're all lined up in a tidy authoritarian-like way.

[SunSeeker]

21. Exactly what I thought when I saw a DUer pushing this story yesterday.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4610558

[ProSense]

30. Well,

a few days ago there was allegedly no one praising Putin.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024610884#post1

[Iliyah]

25. K & R

USA - bad and wrong

Russia - good and right

Seen a few poster support R over USA, wow . . .

USA is way far from being the ideal nation for progressives but sh*t, I just read about the never ending torture and total abuse of human beings in other countries.

[delrem]

32. Maybe the cold war sucks regardless of which side you imagine is righteous?

[delrem]

31. There is much more to understand about recent events in Syria and Ukraine

than is even hinted at in this OP, which does nothing more than point (a rather filthy) finger at messengers.

The OP points a finger at messengers, and at people seriously discussing these issues, in a way that uses innuendo to reify a black-and-white us-vs-them state of mind where all parties to the discussion already have their minds 100% made up, who is "right" and who is "wrong".

[dreamnightwind]

33. Robert Parry under the bus

I don't pretend to know what's going on. There's a lot of disingenuous manipulation in this OP, fail.

I saw Robert Parry speak at length on the Ukraine on Democracy Now, very interesting. I've read Parry for decades, he's not always right but is a damn good reporter.

Putin sucks, which has pretty much zero to do with understanding this situation.

Our government has a long and ugly history of associating and promoting far-right/fascist forces in other countries (and in our own). Anyone who questions that simply doesn't understand the country they live in and its history of foreign intervention.

Here's an article by Parry that goes into his position. Again, I don't claim to know the truth here. I certainly trust someone like Parry more than I trust the author of the OP, and I don't mean that as an insult, I mean it as a weighted source valuation, being someone trying (with my limited time and resources) to understand a complex situation.

Parry explains his take here:
http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/22188-cheering-a-democratic-coup-in-ukraine

[ProSense]

36. Spare me. I mean

"I don't pretend to know what's going on. There's a lot of disingenuous manipulation in this OP, fail. "

...you're dismissing the OP opinion about people pushing pro-Putin propaganda, and then launching into your own attempt to justify why people should listen to pro-Putin nonsense.

Your argument for this: "Our government has a long and ugly history of associating and promoting far-right/fascist forces in other countries (and in our own). "

Basically, the U.S. sucks. Similar to "Putin sucks," what the hell does that have to do with "understanding this situation"?

You say you don't "know what's going on" and "don't claim to know the truth," and then offer up "trust" as evidence of why Parry's opinion should be taken as gospel.

Your comment is what is "disingenuous manipulation."

[dreamnightwind]

38. Just more of the same from you

Not worth my time.

[ProSense]

43. Oh my. It's your way or the highway, huh?

[The Magistrate]

34. Cold But Fair, Ma'am

[bvar22]

41. K and fuckin R!!!!

They are evil dictators who kill their own people !
[font size=5]If you're not FOR the WAR in [/font]
Vietnam
Afghanistan
Iraq
Libya
Syria,
[font size=5]The Ukraine[/font]

[font size=5]you're WITH [/font]
The Communists
AlQaeda
The Terrorists
Saddam
Qaddafi
Assad
[font size=5]PUTIN[/font]

Terror! Terror! Terror!
Evil Dictators!
Freedom Bombs for Democracy!!!
Booga...Booga
USA....USA...USA
[/font]

Oh Yeah.
I want THIS at the TOP of the Greatest Page
with YOUR name on it!!!

[ProSense]

42. Despite

Terror! Terror! Terror!
Evil Dictators!
Freedom Bombs for Democracy!!!
Booga...Booga
USA....USA...USA


Oh Yeah.
I want THIS at the TOP of the Greatest Page
with YOUR name on it!!!

...the bizarre post employing large type the point seems screamingly incoherent. No one is calling for war.

In fact, Kerry is being attacked for calling for diplomacy.

"You don't invade a country on completely trumped up pre-text"

What the hell was he thinking? I mean, every country has the right to do that.

Then there is the despicable "19th century" comment. Never mind that some clearly missed Kerry's point, which was not about whether or not it happens (Germany, Russia and other countries carried out invasions in this century). He was characterizing the act as one that shouldn't happen in this century.

KERRY: Well, we hope not. We hope it’s not going to be a disaster. What has already happened is a brazen act of aggression, in violation of international law and violation of the UN Charter and violation of the Helsinki final act. In violation of the 1997 Ukraine-Russia basing agreement. Russia is engaged in a military act of aggression against another country, and it has huge risks, George. It’s a 19th century act in the 21st century. It really puts at question Russia’s capacity to be within the G-8.

It's not Kerry's fault that some have comprehension problems.

He called for what? Diplomacy sucks!

‘This Week’ Transcript: John Kerry

<...>

STEPHANOPOULOS: Sir, are there any military options on the table? During the crisis with Georgia, President Bush moved military warships to the region, sent humanitarian aid on a military aircraft. Is the U.S. prepared to do that now? Anything more?

KERRY: George, the hope of the United States and everybody in the world is not to see this escalate into a military confrontation. That will not serve the world well, and I think everybody understands that. The president has all options on the table, but the president’s preference was clearly stated yesterday in his hour and a half conversation with President Putin. President Obama made it clear that we are prepared to work with Russia. We understand that Russia has interests in Crimea. The Ukraine government is prepared to respect the base agreement. Nobody threatened those Russia interests. And we are prepare to stand up against any hooligans, any thuggery, any individual efforts with Russians in order to create stability in Ukraine and allow the people of Ukraine to make their choices for the future.

STEPHANOPOULOS: But do you have any indication at all that President Putin is taking heat (inaudible) as President Obama is saying?


KERRY: Well, they just had the conversation yesterday, and the president invited in to engage with the government. I understand there may have been one phone call. We’re going to continue to engage diplomatically. This is a time for diplomacy, and we will engage diplomatically as much as we can in order to steal this away from the increase in the tension of the level of the crisis. Nobody wants this to spiral into a bad or worse direction. The fact is that there are many options available to Russia, by which Russia can see its interests met. And the most important thing to remember here is, this is not or should not be East-West, Russia-United States, Russia versus Europe. This is about the people of Ukraine, people who stood up against snipers, firing at them from the roofs, who are fighting against the tyranny of having political opposition put in jail. And President Putin I think needs to think carefully about Russia’ real interest here. You know, Russia may be able to invade Crimea, but in the end, Russia will isolate itself, there will be a cost to the economy of Russia, cost to Russian businesses, cost to Russia individuals, and ultimately I think Russia will isolate itself on a global stage that it just spent $60 billion through the Olympics to try to present a different face on. It seems to me that if Russia were to step back and look at where its interests are, we ought to be able to work this out through the diplomatic process. If Russia chooses not to, there will be serious repercussions.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Do those repercussions include the U.S. not going to the G8 summit in Sochi come this summer, sir?

KERRY: It is a distinct possibility. We would hope rather that Russia will choose to engage with us, to work with the government of Ukraine, choose a different direction.

Russia has cooperated with us on the START treaty ,on Afghanistan, on Iran. It ought to be possible to find legitimacy in this particular moment in order to be able to deal in a way that serves the world much better than this choice they’ve made. We’re open to that. We encourage that. President Obama made it clear he prefers that. But the choice is really up to Russia at this point.

-more -

http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/week-transcript-john-kerry/story?id=22720806&singlePage=true

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024590090

The attackers evidently think Kerry is "delusional" because he's advocating against invading other countries and working to find a diplomatic solution.

[ProSense]

45. Silly and nonsensical. but hey, typical. n/t

[woo me with science]

55. [phone]

I am loving this thread.

[ProSense]

56. Me too.

[ProSense]

57. Kick! n/t