General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCapitalism: what's that?
Lots of capitalism posts these days. Good stuff.
I'm not much of a capitalist. I use capital, I am a believer in capital. It is a very useful tool. But there is more too it than that, right?
We live with an economic system that is based on capital - the dollar - as a means of commerce. It is also a major part of our modern society. Capitalism is entirely a human construct. Nothing natural about capitalism that I can think of.
I have dollars in my wallet. Those dollars are my capital. The whole system of capitalism is based upon the full faith and credit of those dollars. Meaning, that I can trade those pieces of paper for actual, real items that I did not create.
That's pretty cool, eh? How did this happen? I didn't design capital, build it, program it or do anything really to keep capitalism working so well. My small part is in being some of the glue in the glue of our shared belief in capital.
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
benld74
(9,904 posts)
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)Capitalism is where a guy who is born rich can take his daddy's money and own part of a business he never set foot in, and continue to parasitically leach from the workers' labor while sitting on his ass, so that his children can do the same--over and over and over and over again until only a few people have all the wealth simply due to their great, great, great grand daddy's slave-owning hard "work" (but hey, we're all free now so all's fair, eh?).
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)In nature that would be like a lion who eats all his or her babies thereby insuring the end of its bloodline. It is called unsustainable.
The workers in your scenario are, in an equitable system, free to leave their job and seek another place where they can trade their labor for the same dollar. Different trading partners; same dollar. That would be capitalism at its best.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)It will always cause disparity because it was born and bred from disparity as a means to increase disparity. Its is the owners preferred system, because they must do nothing to increase their wealth but sit on their ass and "own". It leads to perpetual, infinite profit from capital derived and distributed long before our grandfathers were even born.
The workers in your scenario are, in an equitable system, free to leave their job and seek another place where they can trade their labor for the same dollar.
Sounds like sharecroppers, those whiners.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)The capital in sharecropping is land and labor and food. That capital is real goods that each trader has produced by their hand or owns by occupation.
In dollar capitalism we trade promise based dollars for real items or anything someone else produced.
There is trade that still occurs with nothing but real goods. But most of our trading is now done with faith based dollars.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)The "means of production" in sharecropping is the land, which capital is used to buy. Sharecroppers to not own the means of production. They are laborers who execute the entire process of production, which culminates in them producing goods/wealth that are normally vastly given to the land-owners, leaving them perpetually destitute and trapped in a system of virtual slavery.
In dollar capitalism we trade promise based dollars for real items or anything someone else produced.
You really don't understand capitalism or private ownership of the means of production, do you? I really, really think you are just making things up here.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)And you are not a hindrance to the exploration.
This is why I posted this OP. There is not a shared understanding of one of the basics of our society. What some have been saying is they hate capitalism. But in reality they love capitalism and how easy it makes trade happen.
What bothers us is the way capital is used in our society to gain advantage over others. Think of capital as a hammer. It is very useful for hammering nails and no one has a problem with that. But when that hammer is used to hit a person, then that hammer is hated.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)This is a basic tenant of Capitalism. The owners of the Means of Production cannot profit via production without extracting surplus value from labor (also known as exploiting labor). If an owner always pays for materials and the value of the labor, there would be no way to profit from the sale of goods. Since the price of materials is fixed, the difference in the value of the produced goods and the cost of production (profit) is usually obtain only by paying less for the labor than what it is "worth" (as the market determines based upon the goods it produced).
So in the end, when the owners secure all the means of production but ensure the people can only feed themselves by submitting to a system where their labor is exploited, then I assure you capitalism ensures capital is always being used to gain advantage and exploit people. If it wasn't, the system would not work.
Individual parts of the system often fail. But the whole system, this system of belief that a dollar will have value tomorrow or a year from now is what keeps capitalism going.
Since capital is a human construct - a human made tool, it makes sense that humans will misuse it. Misuse of tools to gain advantage over others is in the nature of the human animal. And is what makes us so special.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)And to keep workers in a wage labor relationship with them.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Get rid of capital and there will be no capitalism.
Not many seem to get that, eh?
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Capital is just a term applied to land, labor, financial investments, and equipment required to produce goods.
Capitalism is the system where that is accumulated by individuals, companies, or the state and then used by workers to produce goods in a wage labor relationship with their employer.
Plenty of economic systems propose getting rid of the hierarchal system and wage labor, but will still have capital to produce goods.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Excuse me for laughing.
Labor is what produces those goods that we did not inherit. Capital is not a requirement.
That type of belief is why I posted this thread. So many have no f'n clue.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Financial capital is required to purchase capital goods. Without that, labor has nothing to use to produce goods.
Do you even know what capital is?
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Producing is something that produces something.
Then if it's worth it to someone else they will trade you for what you have produced. If they have nothing of equal value they may purchase it from you by using capital.
But only if you have belief in the capital they want to use to purchase what you produced.
If you have no faith or trust or belief in the paper capital they offer as a purchase tool, then trading what you produced would be stupid.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Capital is the element injected into a company by investors or lenders to allow the individual, company, or state to purchase the real capital (equipment, machinery, tools) necessary to produce goods or to hire workers.
Capital is a term used in a specific context. Money is not capital unless it's used to purchase real capital or invest in human capital. The money you get as wages which you subsequently use to purchase goods and services is not automatically capital. It can go towards reinvestment in the company (in which case, it is capital), or it can go to individual wealth accumulation for the owners (in which case, it's personal wealth).
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Points subtracted for lack of originality, but still a 5 for pot/kettle value.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)A lot of people here have a problem with not knowing what capital is...it's one of the basic stumbling blocks to discussing any alternatives.
Sorry to bust into the subthread, just wanted to stick in the observation.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)I too get the feeling some don't understand what capital is.
Capital is money. It can also be called wealth.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Money has existed in human society for centuries before capitalism. Money can be part of capital, but that's not what capital is.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)They have these things, they are called dictionaries, look up the word capital.
See the definition? Here it is: Money or wealth in the form of property.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)which are from "the free dictionary" anyway, hardly an authoritative source. But since you aren't advanced enough for this conversation, you can have the last bark.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Amazing you didn't delete your post. SMH
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)I get that people think capital is a bad word. My paper dictionary from 20 years ago says money=capital.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Plenty of good info in there. If you read it all, you'll have lots of nice reading material.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)I read it and the rudeness, especially yours is astounding. No wonder this country is so messed up. People deny the reality that they are active members in capitalism. How did you get the computer you are typing on? With capital, used by capitalism.
Yet you people will deny a basic truth. I am gobsmacked.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)OMG, who has been on a two-day tirade with everyone on DU telling you to crack a book and I'm embarrassed??? lololol I haven't been this vastly amused in years.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)You can't even discuss this without being rude. You have embarrassed yourself. Of course you deny that, just like you deny that you exist in a capitalist system. What is really bad is that you deny what a dictionary states.
Its ok to be a capitalist. Everyone on DU is. 99% of Americans are. The problem is in the denial.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Use a more in depth source than a dictionary.
But since you're being deliberately obtuse by not reading any of the explanations I've given you about what is and is not capital, I don't expect you will.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Oh, how true.
How very, very true...
redqueen
(115,103 posts)All the warm fuzzying going on here about capitalism is interesting.
Rex
(65,616 posts)in a time with the MOST income inequality in America. What you describe is exactly how it happened to - we have a poor work force and a uber-wealthy parasitic caste that feeds off the blood of their working force! Never had to raise a hand to make their money, just be born into privilege.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)that when the "uber-wealthy parasitic caste" (as you call them) have nothing left to buy, they always have--and always will--buy Senators, Governors, Regulators, Inspectors, Lobbyists, etc.
There is no such thing as "well-regulated" capitalism. There is a stage capitalism goes through when the vampires wait for their prey to fatten up while they amass wealth and figure out which officials are the funnest to snuggle up to. Inevitably though, a system that produces the uber rich will always find the uber rich undermining anything that might prevent them from getting richer
Rex
(65,616 posts)MUCH easier for them to keep lying to their children daily. It is free and easy.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)and being uber-rich is the ultimate goal.
It is a stupid myth.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)America is built on the idea that anyone can become rich. Not everyone,like your wrong wording, but anyone can. I have seen some become very rich starting with nothing. They did it by hard work and acquiring capital. Duh!
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)But the reason the dollar became the global currency was because America made things. Lots of things. Big things. Small things.
To get those things you needed dollars.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)There have been coins for thousands of years, under a variety of different economic system. Capitalism was born in the 1800s.
Mankind is a fairly new idea to earth and a blink in its history. Capitalism is fairly new to mankind and a blink in his history. Its normalcy, necessity and permanence is as much of an illusion as mankind normalcy, necessity and permanence is to the earth or the universe.
Just don't hunt on the King's land while you are at it. We all know that's wrong, as it always has been and always will be.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)Instead saying I'll give you two goats and a chicken for your cow someone came up with the idea of tokens. You could give everything a simple numerical value instead of trying to figure out how many turnips equal how many swords or whatever.
Of course you then needed an authority to make the tokens and make and enforce the laws to implement them.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)Thousands of years before Adam Smith had God jerk him off until he climaxed out capitalism
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)In a more informed society we would probably distribute them more fairly.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)can get their share of the goods produced through the sweat of others, because they are in the position to buy (with their capital) a portion of a factory that exploits such workers.
Yes, capital is just tokens. Capitalism is about how wealth is produced and distributed. There is a difference. The two are not the same. Having dollars in your wallet doesn't make one a capitalist.
Our dollar based capital is a fleeting tool. It is based upon substantiated belief. Take away the belief and the dollar is just a another piece of paper.
It is just a way of making trading very easy.
The advent of the coin many years ago, was when our modern form of using capital to make trade easier had its genesis.
Gold was once the capital in many trades. Gold coins became the icon for shared belief that the trade being made would be fair.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)Its really silly.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)You really don't see the connection?
We have capital. It is the dollar, or Euro, or yen. It goes by many names. We use dollar based capital in our modern dollar based capitalism society.
Capitalism is the use of capital. The ism is the part where capital becomes the way a society deals with trade in all its forms.
Our modern dollar based capitalist society would not exist if there where no dollar capital.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)America, Britain, Germany and Japan made stuff. That's why their currencies were valued.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)That's what substantiates our belief that we will have a fair trade using hard currencies. It is a belief that gives capital any value. Take away that belief and it is just a piece of metal or paper.
In the sharecropper discussion above, the belief that crops will grow and become harvested is the belief system that sustains sharecropping.
When we trade without capital belief, we do so by comparing one real item against another. For a successful trade, one must believe that what they are trading for is of equal value of what they offer as a trade.
Dollar capital extends that belief beyond the immediate into an almost ephemeral, maybe even infinite belief.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)We saw that with the Recession.
The TBTF banks and corporations sucked something like $2T per year out of the US economy. To all intents and purposes they destroyed that money or sucked it into a blackhole.
The stimulus put about $800M back into the economy and the Fed started quantitive easing which put $100M per month into the system.
So a determination was made that we need "x" number of tokens to keep the system working in a reasonable fashion. So I think we can come up with a finite value of liquid dollars in circulation that the economy needs to thrive. We (humans) make the rules so we can decide how to put that number of tokens into the system and where to distribute them. That's basically Keynesian economics (I think).
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)That belief is almost infinite.
Many believe that their money will be of value wherever they go, and also far into the future. There is of course a physical limit to the currency, but the belief? Boundless as far as I can tell.
Some people have more faith in the land than they do money. Some believe in God. Most people, far as I can see, believe in the dollar bill more than anything else.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)So no, the concept of capital as a medium of exchanging goods is not the same as the concept of capitalism, an economic system.
Capital can exist in many different forms of economic systems--even socialism.
raven mad
(4,940 posts)
Capitalism with morals and ethics is fine. Without it? See above.
former9thward
(31,974 posts)Don't you?
raven mad
(4,940 posts)And now they want to dam the Matanusaka-Susitna, and build dams between Anchorage and Fairbanks for power? WTF happened to the "shared" pipeline...............
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Due to bandwidth limitations on my ISP, images are not displayed here on my screen. I do see from the source code that the pics are of nuclear power plant concerns, eh?
raven mad
(4,940 posts)the second was Chernobyl.
The third was Three Mile Island.......and we still joke and call it, not Long Island Tea, but Three Mile Island Tea when we make it here.
Capitalism, (not capitalists), unbridled? Have a Valdez disaster that still isn't resolved, and never will be.
We're experience a lot of slowdown here, too, and I'm hoping it's because of the weather........
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)Perhaps the weirdest post in a remarkably bizarre thread.
mylye2222
(2,992 posts)there is human-capitalism witch put human's need before profits, which has ethics.
And there is the other one, whitch know no bounds in order to make profit.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Capitalism, in the US, is the whole process of how our dollar based capital tool is used.
Capitalism is the application of the capital tool.
BainsBane
(53,029 posts)and of course than includes capitalism.
Marx defines it as a labor system in which the producer is separated from the means of production. It is not simply trade but a distinct historical period that arose with the decline of mercantilism in the late 18th and early 19th centuries.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)They produce and they are the means of production. No capitalism involved unless they so chose it as a means of trade.
An example of that would be a farmer or trade person who trades his labor for a share of the produce or of what is produced.
Hiring someone to do the work for you is using capitalism.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)BainsBane
(53,029 posts)because the prevailing mode of production is free wage labor. That does not mean everyone is a worker. Clearly that isn't the case.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Those that do not produce are not workers. No capitalist would give someone any capital if they did not have products to trade for that capital.
Social Security, and other socialist programs, do give people capital even if they don't have produce to trade.
That makes a fairly clear distinction between the two isms.
Of course, the capital has to come from somewhere before capital can be handed out. It could be said Socialism is a balancing act which evens out the excesses of capitalism by redistributing the capital from hoarders to those not able to hoard.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Why shouldn't their constructs be as well?
rug
(82,333 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)That is why I posted this. The disconnect is quite obvious.
Money in my wallet is my capital, that I believe, and you believe, is good enough to trade with. Trade using dollars is capitalism.
What we are doing right now is also a trade: Your words for mine. But there is no exchange of dollars so it is not capitalism.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Land, labor, and capital. Financial capital comes from private investors and loans from banks to purchase the capital goods needed to produce goods.
The money in your wallet is a substitute for the barter system. Not all money systems have to be capitalist.
DireStrike
(6,452 posts)I'm sure your 5 minute, 173 word post is just as good though.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)I did. I forgot most of it. But thanks for adding your two cents.
DireStrike
(6,452 posts)If only we could all forget as much, things would be less complicated at least.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Stunning, don't you think?
DireStrike
(6,452 posts)Perhaps even stunned.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Remove capital and there can be no capitalism.
Too simple for some, I guess.
Stuns them, even?
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)followed by this, from the same poster:
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)So if you have capital you are being capitalist.
You are participating in the financial system called capitalism.
Hey, it's not a sin, so don't get your knickers in a twist. It's just the way it is the the US and 90% of the world. In that other 10% they have no money = no capital. They are not capitalist because they have no capital. You have capital? You are a capitalist.
See, wasn't that easy?
Our problem is: How do we control the capitalists who take advantage of the capitalist system.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)we are all environmentalists?
Overly narrow meanings enlighten us not. The philosophical point of comparison between the philosophy of socialism and the philosophy of capitalism -is not- that both use tokens during commercial trade rather than direct barter of goods.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)And that you deny using capital in this economy which is a capitalist system?
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)Capital refers to things of material wealth. It might be money. It might be a herd of pigs.
CapitalISM is a philosophy characterized by principles and practices about material wealth. What constitutes capitalism isn't a fixed definition, it's both malleable and weaselly.
CapitalISTIC is an adjective referring to something associated with the principles and practices of material wealth.
CapitalIST, as a person, refers to an individual who adheres to or advocates practices and philosophical tenets of capitalism.
Capitalist may also be used as an adjective for capitalistic.
Living in a society in which capitalism is practiced, and having artifacts of membership in that society doesn't make a person a disciple or advocate of that philosophy.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)That did not have a rude knee-jerk reaction.
And reading your responses does not really say you are not a capitalist.
In fact, this affirms the idea:
"CapitalIST, as a person, refers to an individual who adheres to or advocates practices and philosophical tenets of capitalism."
One thing all capitalist do is use capital. They adhere to the philosophical belief that the capital they hold can be used to trade for something. That capital, in the form of currency, is underwritten merely by a shared belief that the currency offered has value, even tho it is but a coin or piece of paper.
That is why, on the US dollar, are the words, "In God we trust". One must believe in currency in order for currency to be used. Without that belief it is nothing but a coin or piece of paper.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Money is a replacement of the cumbersome barter system. Capital is a word used in a specific context, one that you are NOT using.
A capitalist advocates for capitalism, a system defined by the accumulation of the means of production in the hands of businesses or the state and a work labor relationship between employer and worker. Every civilization since the dawn of human history has "used" capital; the term capital is just a fairly recent term used to describe a process.
I don't advocate for capitalism, therefore I am NOT a capitalist. I use money because I live in an economy that uses it as the primary means of valuing and obtaining products and services.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Or just a rude embarrassment?
The rudeness explains why you felt the need to interject yourself here with the same crap as before. Like you say: the billionth time.
frwrfpos
(517 posts)That makes me a violinist.
I also have a belief in the flying spaghetti monster, thus, we all have a shared belief in the flying spaghetti monster.
You make a great argument for involuntary commitment to remedial comprehension classes in junior high school
You may not have anyone who appreciates your violin playing but if you play the violin.....
Question: Do you believe that money in your pocket, that green printed piece of paper, has value? Of course you do, or you wouldn't trade hours of your time for that piece of paper. And others hold that same belief, because if they didn't then the paper would be just another piece of paper.
You believe in that money and so does someone else. A mere shared belief and trust in a piece of paper is what you trade hours of your life for. You are a believer in something that in reality is not much more than a flying spaghetti monster.
Say you have two pieces of paper in your wallet. Both are the same size, the same color. One has the number 100 printed on it, and the other the number 5. Why, in your mind is one worth 20 times as much as the other? Because you believe it to be so, and others also believe it to be so.
The shared belief in that is capitalism.
Take them and burn them up. Now what do you believe that paper is worth?
I see now why some of you hate these discussions.
frwrfpos
(517 posts)Capitalism is an IDEA, a human BELIEF of how things should be valued on planet earth. Paper and coinage has been around for centuries before the idea of Capitalism was ever though of.
I suggest you take a critical thinking class before you embarrass yourself further
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)A belief that capital has value. Very good.
Your snide ass remarks, tho, once you consider them, should make you feel quite embarrassed, i do believe.
frwrfpos
(517 posts)Capital is an idea. A human belief and idea.
Do you understand that? Are you drunk or high?
Capital is an English word that has many meanings, including money, cities, a momument
Do you really not understand that?
Are you mentally ill?
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Seems you are projecting
And embarrassing yourself with such remarks.