About that cross at Ground Zero...

[Bonobo]

The cross that is currently being discussed and which some claim was not found "in situ" but was actually fashioned out of wreckage is NOT the one shown in the below photo as some have claimed.

Original Photo in the wreckage:


Afterwards:



Oh, and as for it not being a religious symbol, just a piece of debris that "tells the story":

[hack89]

1. This atheist says so what?

The cross was part of the Ground zero landscape for nearly a decade and became part of the 911 story. It belongs at the memorial.

[Bonobo]

2. This atheist says put it in a church if you like it so much.

He also says don't post photos of it in the wreckage to "prove" that that is what it was originally like when you are actually posting a photo of some other piece of debris.

[AnalystInParadise]

9. Why do you care

It gives millions of people comfort and I fail to see the harm it causes someone like you.

[Bonobo]

10. Why does it have to be about me personally?

I happen to know (from personal experience) that seeing a cross in a public space makes some people feel isolated at best and threatened at worst.

That doesn't seem to be something in your experience, so I guess you should listen to people who DO have it in their experience.

I mean, you don't want people to feel ostracized and threatened by religious symbols near 9/11, do you?

I mean, you DO know that religion is what was behind it, right? And that the whole Christian VS> Muslim thing is sort of the cause of lots of murder and death-dealing, right? And that its continuation at the site of a religiously inspired terrorist act might be a problem for some not of that faith, right?

[yeoman6987]

11. It is beautiful

I am glad it is staying. It gives millions hope. What a great tribute.

[Bonobo]

12. Maybe it should be put on top of the new tower in that case!

It would give even MORE hope.

[yeoman6987]

13. lol.

I was just being snarky.

[AnalystInParadise]

15. So all you see is hatred

I got it. No rational discussion possible. If a cross/menorah/ Islamic crescent in a public space makes people feel isolated, then it seems the people that feel isolated should talk to someone. This symbol gives tens of millions of Americans comfort. Good enough for me to keep it there.

[Fumesucker]

21. When people who feel isolated by such things talk about their experience they are attacked

It's routine even on DU.

[AnalystInParadise]

35. I don't want to attack a soul

But the joyless existence of certain atheists who can't seem to help themselves and be seen as rational, empathic people is something I am continuously surprised by. Sometimes you have to compromise to get people to see that you aren't the bad guys. And I can't think of an easier goal for atheists than the allow this to happen without protest. I swear they are their own worst enemy sometimes.

[Fumesucker]

40. "I don't want to atttack a soul" - "Joyless existence of certain atheists"

[AnalystInParadise]

42. I am sorry

how is that even remotely an attack? That is a factual observation backed by quite a few posts in this thread alone.

[Gravitycollapse]

44. One or two posters on DU constitute a faction of atheism? You are an analyst right?

Analyst of what, exactly? It must not be anything pertaining to mathematics.

[AnalystInParadise]

80. Central Asia

and the Middle East

[Fumesucker]

47. Someone who disagrees with you on this is automatically "joyless"?

[Gravitycollapse]

63. You poor fool. Don't you realize your happiness is actually sadness?

Religion only breeds happiness as evidenced by Flagellants...

[Fumesucker]

68. Thank you sir, may I have another?

[AnalystInParadise]

83. My faith

gives me peace and love and tolerance of others (even humorless atheists) and a desire for all people to get along. Jesus Christ is my savior and all is love. YMMV.

[Gravitycollapse]

105. You've actually resorted to preaching Christianity. Is this a joke?

Are you really just pulling my leg?

[Fumesucker]

126. I think we may have been epically Poed

Which is funny as hell..

[AnalystInParadise]

140. Interesting question

isn't it?

[Fumesucker]

156. You're pretty good

But your routine could use a little polishing, you went a bit far over the top.

[AnalystInParadise]

75. No someone who is joyless is joyless

agreeing or disagreeing with me has nothing to do with it.

[Fumesucker]

82. And you are capable of telling in a post or two who is "joyless" and who is not?

Doctor Phil would be jealous.

[AnalystInParadise]

95. No not most people

just the joyless ones. They are easy to spot, they want to tear down a symbol that gives comfort to tens and tens of millions of people because they don't like it. Kinda easy to spot the joyless ones.

[Fumesucker]

103. Just *those* people

This whole argument is over adding a plaque to honor those of other religions and no religion who also died on 9/11.

When the atheist group was ignored in their request for a plaque they launched this lawsuit and now they are getting attention.

Matthew 5:44 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you

[AnalystInParadise]

104. Don't care

of course I care about the people of other faiths who died, but the OP hurled a grenade in here and is surprised there is push back. That is all I care about right this second.

[Fumesucker]

113. The OP was pointing out that another poster had used an incorrect picture

If we are going to argue, why can't it be about documented facts?

The two pictures showed different pieces of metal shaped like a religious symbol.

The first one had been smugly posted as *the* cross as found in situ. Evidently it wasn't.

[AnalystInParadise]

116. Again

could care less what the OP thought, they wanted to cause trouble, so I give two shits what their original point was. Being a bomb thrower leads to people being less than friendly.

[Fumesucker]

122. Feel the love...

Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you

[Bonobo]

128. It's all that joy. nt

[AnalystInParadise]

136. I have nothing but love in my heart

for everyone, even the joyless bomb throwers. That doesn't mean I have to be polite to disruptors however.

[Fumesucker]

139. Brilliant troll, man

But you've been busted..

[LostOne4Ever]

224. That doesn't mean I have to be polite to disruptors however

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
-Matthew 7:12

Soooo you want us to be rude to you and accuse you of being joyless?

[Fumesucker]

118. Duplicate

[treestar]

76. What is the point of feeling "isolated" by anything?

The Washington Monument makes me feel "isolated" so let's take it down.

[Fumesucker]

79. What is the "point" of any emotion?

Emotions don't have points, they are unconscious reactions to stimuli.

[treestar]

235. Some people find it comforting, some don't, it makes some uncomfortable

Why put up any monuments at all? Somebody will feel bad.

If it is not the government, then Christians can put monuments up too. Why feed into their already absurd sense of persecution?

[Fumesucker]

240. You still miss the point of the original dispute

The atheist group wished to pay their own money to put a plaque honoring the non-Christian victims on 9/11, they weren't even denied, they were ignored.

One side wants inclusiveness and the other side is Hell-Bent on remaining exclusive, their position is that Christians are the only ones who were emotionally harmed on 9/11 and the only group even needing anything to help them deal with the tragedy.

[2banon]

203. No, you don't get it. Religion is irrational by definition

that's why it's impossible to have a rational discussion regarding anything based on religious beliefs.

To that point, this entire discussion should be in the religious forum imo.

[Lost_Count]

24. Oh lawdy lawd...

We wouldn't want to have something in public that could potentially cause someone anxiety...

However shall they survive?

[Bonobo]

26. You would NOT advocate for a Muslim symbol there I bet.

Why? Precisely because it would cause anxiety.

Now, you may next say that you WOULD advocate for such a symbol. And that may or may not be an honest portrayal of your opinion, BUT many would be against it for the same reasons you pooh-pooh.

[AnalystInParadise]

30. LOL

No I would not advocate a symbol of the faith that made 9/11 happen. Strawman argument denied

[Gravitycollapse]

41. What utter bollocks. You get your talking points from Fox News.

[AnalystInParadise]

88. No from

tolerance of others and my own moral compass. But I do like the modified Godwin's law..........

HE SAID SOMETHING WE DISAGREE WITH, HE IS EVIL.....

Please keep showing your intolerance and how my initial judgement of you was correct.

[Gravitycollapse]

102. No, I'm saying you literally have your talking points from Fox News...

http://thinkprogress.org/security/2012/12/10/1308331/fox-news-ground-zero-mosque-back/

[AnalystInParadise]

108. Good lord

I have no talking points. I have my faith and my love for humanity through Christ. That is all.

But again keep using that modified Godwin's.....it proves my point about humorless intolerance.

[Gravitycollapse]

124. You just blamed the 9/11 attacks on Islam. Do you not remember that, Mr. Tolerance?

[AnalystInParadise]

130. I blamed it on

people who were Muslims. That is not in dispute unless you are a loose change nut job and then we can stop talking right now.

Islam is not to blame, 19 Muslims are to blame however. Well a lot more than 19 Muslims, but 19 Muslims carried out the attack.

[Bonobo]

145. You said: "I would not advocate a symbol of the faith that made 9/11 happen."

IOW, you said "Islam made 9/11 happen."

Precisely the kind of "tolerance" that makes some of us puke.

[AnalystInParadise]

148. A symbol of the faith

True Story.

[Gravitycollapse]

158. "I would not advocate a symbol of the faith that made 9/11 happen"

Do you think we're stupid? You blamed 9/11 on Islam. Have a little courage in your conviction for once and just own what you said.

[AnalystInParadise]

162. No I didn't

But keep trying.

I have explained what I said, but you want to try and pummel me with your interpretation of my words. Good luck with that.

[Marr]

271. Your words were crystal clear.

You plainly blamed the attacks on Islam. C'mon.

[Bonobo]

54. Ha ha. If that is a straw man, you have encased it it solid titanium.

As a testimony to your disgusting xenophobia.

[uppityperson]

84. What is the symbol of Fundamentalist Faith as that is what made 9/11 happen?

[Marr]

270. Wow. Now I'm dead against the inclusion of that cross.

I was a little concerned that it might be viewed as a symbol of religious war, but hearing you support it for just that reason removes all doubt.

I mean, you do realize the attackers would say that *Christianity* caused that attack, right? I'm not saying I agree with them, only that many of us, most of us, I suspect, don't care to participate in a new crusade. If you do, fantastic-- but keep it out of the public space.

[Lost_Count]

222. That would indeed be a rare piece...

... That was both dedicated to the reason the buildings were brought down and was also inspiring to the masses to the point where it is recognized 13 years later.

[treestar]

74. That's absurd

And not a reason to not have any crosses out there publicly. If everyone's sensibilities were checked in this matter, nothing could be out in the public. Somebody can be upset by just about anything.

There was a big chair in Central Park and it may still be there. It was painted red. That might have reminded some people of upsetting times.

The Mona Lisa might be upsetting to somebody.

[Bonobo]

77. No, THAT is absurd. Reductio ad absurdum to be exact. nt

[MADem]

185. Because you're the one whining that it needs to be "put in a church if you like it so much!"

I've lived all over the world and been exposed to many religions. I don't feel threatened by them at all. I find some interesting, some amusing, some a bit irritating...but they don't make me feel "isolated" even if I'm the only one in the room who doesn't know the players without a scorecard.

I guess that has something to do with being raised by folks who taught me to be respectful of others, even if their views differed from mine, and to be interested in learning about differences rather than fearful of them.

And if you can feel "ostracized and threatened" by religious symbols, you've got issues. Do black cats and ladders have a similar effect? Boy/Girl Scout badges? Kiwanis Club tie tacks? Moose Lodge hats? Basically, religions are just clubs. No one's forcing you to join, even if you like to pretend they are.

And you don't have a "right" to go through life un-offended. Personally, I find ostentatious, complicated memorials offensive. That's a minority view in this situation, so I'm gonna put on my Big Kid Pants and suck it up, and not berate people who like the concept and find something worthy in it. Different strokes, and all that. Not everything in the world is designed to suit meeeeeeeeee!! I know how to solve my problem, and that's avoid the location. You could do likewise, or simply avert your gaze when you come across that awful thing that disturbs you so.

[dionysus]

201. dunno bout you, but i'm atheist and don't feel threatened when passing by churches and religious

symbols..

[Bonobo]

202. I never understood the "Don't know about you, but listen to me" thing.

It seems redundant.

Yes, you don't know about me but now you're going to share YOUR personal viewpoint? Okay.... sure. But don't you understand that nobody knows nothing about nobody? That's why it is called a personal viewpoint aka opinion.

[dionysus]

204. you shared your opinion, and prompted responses by making it an OP. i responded with my opinion...

[Bonobo]

205. Yeah, I get it, but I don't understand the useless "I dunno about you" thing.

Although I admit it goes well with your shrug smilie.

[dionysus]

206. it's just something i put in front of sentences sometimes, especially when i am stoned. i didn't

mean it as an affront to you, if that's what you're thinking.

[Bonobo]

208. God, I want to be stoned.

Now me sad...and jealous.

[dionysus]

209. d'oh!!! now i feel bad!

[Bonobo]

211. Yar, it sucks.

It's enough to make me want to move back to America.

My retirement plan is smoking and gardening and listening to music.

Give me a wood stove and a deep bath and I will be as happy as a pig in shit.

[dionysus]

212. you're in japan, right? big city like tokyo?

I am assuming it's not no easy to get an 1/8th there.

[Bonobo]

214. Nope, quite the opposite.

Small island.

[dionysus]

219. well, i hope it's nice and not freezing like here. no offence meant with my posts.

[Scruffy Rumbler]

250. Every time I have to see a cross...

It is a little post traumatic stress trigger after all the crap I and others have had to suffer at the hands of the faithful. I also have a problem with all the crosses people put up where someone has died from an accident. How long do we need crosses and plastic flowers every where?

Thanks for stating it so clearly!

[DefenseLawyer]

265. Do you think prayer in public schools "gives millions of people comfort"?

And doesn't harm anyone else? Just curious. It would seem to me that allowing the state to endorse Christianity any time it "gives comfort" to someone is not much of a barrier.

[Warpy]

58. This atheist agrees

They're creating a hostile memorial to all the Jews and Muslims who died that day and both groups were heavily represented.

They need to put that thing on its side, maybe, to defuse the religious symbolism. The problem is that too many Christians in this country think they're the only ones here.

[defacto7]

207. ^ this ^

n/t

[Marr]

273. Yep. And just ignoring these little incursions into the public sphere only encourages it. /nt

[840high]

19. ...^ that

[NoGOPZone]

3. I think it should stay

as long as its mounting position is inverted. No one should mind since its not a religious symbol.

[Bonobo]

6. True, put it so it looks like an "X". nt

[Nay]

8. Yeah, that's what I said in the first thread on this cross. Turn it upside down

and see just exactly how many Christians still think everything's fine and it's 'only a piece of wreckage.'

[hrmjustin]

4. I met Fr Jordan several times at the site. He was very comforting during those days.

[uppityperson]

5. Huh, the cross piece changed direction.

[Bonobo]

7. It must be a miracle. nt

[Nye Bevan]

14. The many threads about this item prove that it really is part of the 9/11 story.

And therefore that it belongs in the memorial museum.

What the atheists miss is that context is everything. It is not going to be displayed with a banner reading "Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God"; it is going to be displayed with a description of what it is and how it comforted many people in the aftermath of the tragedy. If anyone is made "uncomfortable" by this, the problem is with them, not with the display.

[AnalystInParadise]

18. This^

Atheists don't need to man the ramparts for every single issue. It gives millions comfort, it harms no one, and it is seen as a symbol from a disaster......Other than offending a very small group who can't seem to find joy in something that inspired millions, I can't see the problem.

[Fumesucker]

135. I know you are aware by now that this is over including a plaque to honor non Christians who died

Your continual ignoring of the point makes your agenda more apparent.

[Marr]

274. +1

[morningfog]

188. The number of threads proves nothing of the sort.

It prove, in anything, it is controversial. I just find it totally stupid. I am not offended by christian idolatry, in general, but really dislike when it is sanctioned at any government level. And, it is much worse when done at the exclusive of other religions or religious symbols.

[badtoworse]

16. It absolutely belongs there

It was quite prominent and visible from Church Street from the first days after the attack, through the demolition and after that. For everyone that is uncomfortable with it (like you), there are probably thousands for whom it brings comfort. In a situation like that, I would think that a sensitive and caring minority would stand aside and let the majority take what comfort they can.

[840high]

17. Thank you.

[Bonobo]

20. What was prominent? The photo I showed that is NOT the same as the erected monument?

They are not the same.

[Gravitycollapse]

22. How do you know that?

[Bonobo]

23. By looking at the photos. Have a look yourself. nt

[Gravitycollapse]

25. Actually, on edit, you are right they aren't the same.

Same metal maybe but not original.

[Bonobo]

29. Which begs the question (or answers the question)

Was this monument/debris/cross something "pulled miraculously" from the wreckage or was it created?

Does it matter? Yes. I am against it either way, but some here have defended it by suggesting that it was not cut into that shape but was spontaneously created as is. They posted the photos to prove it so and so I am debunking that defense.

[Gravitycollapse]

32. Check my other post. The cross was from a different beam.

You appear to have posted the wrong photo. Which explains the difference.

[Bonobo]

38. Good catch, but I posted a photo disseminated by a DU'er falsely as the same cross. nt

[Gravitycollapse]

28. On second review, they aren't the same because your first photo is incorrect...

This is the cross beam which was used for the display

[Bonobo]

34. Is so, then ok, but a DU'er posted the one that I posted as "original".

It makes no difference to me, though, whether it was found as is or not.

It was something chosen from among tens of thousands of other debris because it was shaped like a cross.

[Gravitycollapse]

37. As I've argued elsewhere, what matters is not that a cross is there...

It's that other religious or non-religious displays are not being allowed in.

There is however a question of historical importance. If the cross was on display at the sight for a long time, and many people did take comfort in it and saw it as symbolic of the tragedy, then it is no longer simply a religious symbol. It has contemporary historical significance to the tragedy.

[Bonobo]

48. Perhaps, but it is clearly being venerated as a religious symbol.

[LostOne4Ever]

225. But wouldn't adding a plaque

be a part of the continuing evolution of the history of the event?

On (insert whatever day or month of 2014) nonbelievers posted a plaque honoring their dead and wounded from 9/11 so as to have a symbol from which to take comfort.

[uppityperson]

91. Here are the 2, looks like the same one. I have no problem with it, only with what people try to

make it into as Fundamentalism is the problem. No matter the creed or sect.

[badtoworse]

31. I worked at 111 Broadway (around the corner from the WTC) and I was there on 9/11

I worked there until June 2008 and I saw the cross almost every day. The cross in the pictures looks like the real cross to me, but in any case, the real cross belongs at the memorial.

If there is a bona fide question as to the authenticity of the cross at the memorial, that should resolved. As to whether the 9/11 cross belongs there, that question is not open to debate, at least not in my mind.

On edit, the two crosses are not the same. The second picture looks like the cross that stood for years at the pit. Given the amount of wreckage that was there, it's entirely possible that more than fragment of structural steel was found that was in the shape of a cross. There is no question, however, that a cross made of structural steel from the WTC stood at the site for years. That cross belongs at the memorial.

[Gravitycollapse]

33. Are you a Christian?

[badtoworse]

66. I am one person who believes that many thousands took comfort from that cross

In that context, my personal beliefs are no more relevant than those of the atheist who, for purely selfish reasons, would object to the cross being at the memorial.

[Gravitycollapse]

71. I think all personal bias is relevant, be it Atheism or Christianity.

Especially if the argument is that many people took comfort in the symbol following the attacks. Who actually took comfort in it? Was it a body of Christians because that doesn't counter the argument that it's a religious symbol.

[badtoworse]

223. It's obviously a religious symbol. In this instance, it doesn't matter.

[Fumesucker]

53. Which cross? They are two different ones made with an obvious difference once you notice

The web of the vertical I-beam is oriented 90 degrees away from the horizontal I-beam in one picture and parallel to the horizontal I-beam in the other picture.

[badtoworse]

60. I noticed that and edited my post. The second picture looks like the cross that stood for years.

[Fumesucker]

27. Just to make it a little easier to see the difference

[Bonobo]

36. Apparently it is a different cross. And I don't think it matters. It's a red herring.

Whether found or created, it was chosen, by Christians, because it reminded them of something that is an icon in THEIR religion. The ritual attention they give it is THEIR issue. It is a religious issue. Go. Find comfort. But do it in a church.

[Gravitycollapse]

39. It seems the entire basis of this thread is that the crosses were not the same.

When in actuality you simply posted the wrong photo by mistake. If you have another argument, it was auxiliary to the point of the OP. So it does make a difference.

[Fumesucker]

43. No, that picture in the OP was originally posted by another DUer in a couple of other threads

A DUer arguing for the cross remaining..

[Bonobo]

45. I have another argument (in addition to it debunking a DU'ers wrong photo)

It doesn't matter if the cross was found or created. It was chosen to be given ritual attention because it was a cross, a religious symbol for a majority of people in the US.

Having said that, it is at a sight where religious symbols are PARTICULARLY DANGEROUS AND INFLAMMATORY since religion was behind the terrorist act.

The long war between the Christians and the Muslim was the cause of the deaths of many who want nothing to do with that silliness.

Jews, Muslims, Hindus and others who were victims on that day should not have to pay for the upkeep of a religious symbol not should they have it thrust in their face. It belongs in a church or possibly a museum.

That is my argument.

[Gravitycollapse]

50. I'm not in favor of being an historical erasure because religious symbols can be dangerous.

Are we now not going to be able to say the religion of those who died?

I am in favor of commissioning some sort of committee to create religious memorials for all relevant religions and non-religious entities.

[Bonobo]

52. So we should just load the place up with every religious symbol as a sort of counterbalance, eh?

Sure, why not. I'm not against that, I guess. Except I worry about the "relevant" religion part.

[Gravitycollapse]

56. Anyone who comes forward saying their religion or non-religion is relevant gets a place.

[Niceguy1]

46. the cross is pertinent to the whole incident

and should be displayed. If anyone is so bothered by the sight of an inanimate object commonly seen every day in our society I would suggest counseling as they have some serious issues. Part of life is ignoring what you don't like or what you dont believe in. nowadays many people think they have the right not to be offended, it just doesn't exist. Live and let live makes life so much better.

[Fumesucker]

49. A swastika is an inanimate object and is very offensive to a lot of people

Should those who don't like seeing swastikas get "counseling"?

[Niceguy1]

57. I was referring to, common objects seen in our society

[Fumesucker]

59. A Confederate flag is not that uncommon in many parts of the USA

Some people find it offensive for some strange reason despite the fact it's common.

Should they get counseling?

[Niceguy1]

64. fine...

Every day objects that aren't symbols of white supremacy..... you kniw exactly what I mean.... some streets have a church on every block.....

[Fumesucker]

70. Exactly our point

Everywhere you go there's the evidence of Christan supremacy..

You'll never get it.

[Niceguy1]

72. funny, of all the time I have spent

in church I have never seen or heard hate. You everyday Christian isn't a supremacist...fact is most of the congregation of the church I go to isn't white. ...every mass is attended by a diverse group.

I am done..thus isn't going anywhere.

[Fumesucker]

78. You keep making foolish generalizations

And then are miffed when I call you on them.

Some people who use the cross as a symbol of their ethos are hateful toward anyone not of their particular philosophical bent, not everyone can divorce their feelings about the hate those people spread from the symbol they use.

[Niceguy1]

85. most arent

just like not all Muslims are terrorists not all Christians are hateful in fact most of the people that go to in my congregation? They're all Democrats with the big capital D.

[Fumesucker]

90. So what?

On every other subject here on DU it's the job of the majority to understand and accept the feelings of the minority as being legitimate.

Why is that so difficult for this subject?

[Niceguy1]

99. on the other side of the coin

that doesn't mean things should be decided by the minority.

[Fumesucker]

107. So you agree you shouldn't be attacking the feelings of a minority?

[stevil]

121. The majority?

See previous post.

[stevil]

115. Some people....

See my next post.

[Nye Bevan]

92. Anyone who goes to the Holocaust Memorial Museum will see plenty of swastikas.

Anyone who will be extremely upset by the sight of something that is part of the history of whatever a museum is memorializing should probably stay away from that museum.

[Fumesucker]

97. Indeed, are the swastikas considered holy and comforting by most of those who visit?

[stevil]

132. Fucking hell

What does that have to do with any of this?

[Fumesucker]

137. The cross is there because it was considered holy and made people feel comforted..

Please try to keep up.

[Nye Bevan]

155. Nope, it's there because it stood at Ground Zero for more than a decade,

and is a part of the history of the aftermath of 9/11.

The role of the museum is to include any historically significant items irrespective of how people viewed these items.

[Fumesucker]

161. I'm starting to think you are a Poe too..

No one not playing a role could miss the obvious so blatantly.

[stevil]

160. Why

Is the crucifix so offensive. Keep me up to date.

[Nye Bevan]

173. It causes "dyspepsia, depression, headaches, anxiety, and mental pain and anguish"

according to the lawsuit filed by the atheists.

http://m.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2014/March/Group-Fights-WTC-Cross-Atheists-Died-Here-Too/

[AnalystInParadise]

192. There is medication

for most of those problems.

[defacto7]

215. Much of which

end up prescribed to the believers, not the nons.

http://www.addictiontreatmentmagazine.com/prescription-drug-addiction/prescription-drug-abuse-in-christians/

Also, Utah Mormons have the highest antidepressant prescription and usage rate in the US.

[AnalystInParadise]

218. WTF?

Why are you making this about religion? I was merely stating that many of those symptoms can be cleared up with medication, the same applies to Christians and atheists.....WTF!

[defacto7]

221. Did you mean to say

What the Fuck? It's an honest statement.

You "merely" say nothing. I'm not making anything, I am stating some pertinent facts in the spirit of your posts and the rancor of your demeanor which adds a great deal of justification to atheists seeing Christians in action. You are really not believable, and I don't personally think that was merely what you wanted to say.

[COLGATE4]

243. As I recall the Holocaust Museum doesn't

have a huge steel swastika in front of the museum?

[Nye Bevan]

246. Perhaps because a "huge steel swastika" is not part of the history of the Holocaust?

Was such a thing ever built, discovered, or displayed?

[COLGATE4]

247. Are you serious? After Germany surrendered I

don't believe you could even count the number of huge steel swastikas which were lying around. And the swastika is more a part (horrible part) of the Holocaust much more than two I-beams joined at 90 degrees is a part of 9/11.

[Nye Bevan]

248. OK, if you are concerned that the Holocaust Memorial Museum does not display enough swastikas,

or does not display swastikas of a sufficient size, you are more than welcome to take it up with them.

[COLGATE4]

262. You are deliberately missing the point.

I don't have a problem with a museum - any museum, Holocaust, WTC, Metropolitan, Guggenheim - exhibiting artifacts that have some historical significance. My problem is with the WTC museum placing a Christian Cross prominently outside the museum. As such it ceases to be a museum exhibit and instead becomes an endorsement of a given religion. And, since the WTC is public property, its exhibition in this fashion violates the separation of church and state. Which is why I oppose it.

[Nye Bevan]

263. Museums commonly have both indoor and outdoor exhibits.

I really don't get the significance of whether they decide to place this item inside or outside. Either way it is part of the exhibits collection.

[COLGATE4]

264. The artifact isn't being preserved as part of an

exhibit. If it were, it would never have been tampered with and cut and shaped to make it look as it does today. It's sole reason for being is to propogate the Christian faith and as such has no place in either.

[COLGATE4]

249. Your response (to which this exchange has been

ditrected) was about discussing the point of whether people should be outraged because swastikas are displayed inside the Holocaust Museum. If this object were to be displayed in the museum rather than outside it I would agree. But it isn't. It's not being shown for the purpose suggested but rather as a religious display which is not permissible under 1st Amendment law.

[Bonobo]

51. "I would suggest counseling as they have some serious issues."

I love it when "nice guys" sneak in cowardly passively aggressive attacks.

[Niceguy1]

55. no, not agressive

But if a person is so bothered by an object in open sight that is common place in this society then there are serious underlying issues that could be addressed to counseling. Not being mean just being completely honest

[Fumesucker]

61. Maybe the "issue" is the society is fucked up..

Confederate flags on certain state flags for instance or just Confederate flags in general ..

[Bonobo]

62. Context is everything.

A cross is a common sight. In a church, it will surely cause no disturbance.

Displayed prominently during a state of the union speech would be a different issue.

You agree?

[Niceguy1]

67. there shouldn't be any different in seeing

a cross in front of a church or a cross behind the president although I think is that a state of the union would not appropriate unless it's the 911 cross.

in this day in age we have forgotten in about live and let live.

[Bonobo]

69. I could not understand your post.

No offense. I literally could not understand it. Perhaps you should edit it.

[mindwalker_i]

65. Can somebody strap a

blow-up doll to it?

If religious people are so keen to shove God and Jesus down our throats (and pants), I say we have a little fun with it. Turn their symbols against them. Have a cross? Put an ad for nails below it. Or a picture of Dr. McCoy saying "He's dead, Jim." I think this would be a lot more effective as a way to fight, kind of like how the Comic-con dudes made fun of Westboro.

[Logical]

73. Huge atheist here, it seems more like a historical item to me. nt

[Fumesucker]

86. Which cross? They are two different ones made with an obvious difference once you notice

[Bonobo]

89. Really?

[Fumesucker]

93. He's just being Logical n/t

[Logical]

152. A priest can do that on anything, doesn't mean anything. Nt

[Nye Bevan]

178. Should priests be able to keep historical items out of museums by sprinkling holy water on them? nt

[Capt. Obvious]

242. And I'm severely atheist

[Historic NY]

81. I don't have a problem since the site is still a cemetery...

for those families who don't have a shard to put in the ground elsewhere. Portions of the steel from the building were sent around the country. Our local cemetery has a cross from the steel along with several memorials elsewhere. Citizens from our county died down there from cops to fireman and average everyday people. 9/11 is still raw in the survivors memories.

[JI7]

87. since i don't believe in god it doesn't really bother me

[Vashta Nerada]

94. That cross is the most disrespectful and tackiest thing I have ever seen.

[AnalystInParadise]

96. Pure parody

Man I love performance art pieces

[Historic NY]

196. Yeah like these....

htt p://

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

98. Holy Shit! Is this Crucifix porn?

These threads are flaming!!

[WilliamPitt]

100. This OP makes me want to vomit.

Literally. My stomach heaved.

Not because a cross of iron settled in the wreckage of the Towers. And not because someone garbed in the cloth of faith sprayed anointed water on it.

Because you posted this to start trouble.

Yeah, you did.

You are combining a pair of deeply emotional issues - 9-11, and religion - into one nifty bombastic post.

You might as well lob a Molotov Cocktail into the middle of GD.

I see you.

[AnalystInParadise]

101. Well said

This harms no one and gives comfort to millions of Americans. The only controversy is that some people who are too selfish for their own good want to take comfort away from the vast majority. I could care less if the symbol was Christian, Jewish, or Martian, it COMFORTS people, far far more than it could ever offend.

[Vashta Nerada]

111. I'm sure the non-xtians would perished on 9/11 would agree with that.

[AnalystInParadise]

112. Seriously

I already appreciate you for your art, no need to continue. You have me sold, you are a genius in the performance category.

[Vashta Nerada]

120. People who perished on 9/11 weren't only xtians.

They were Islamic, Jewish, atheist, pagans, etc. Either have all religious symbols or none.

What's with xtians using the crucifix as a masturbatory aid?

[AnalystInParadise]

134. I can't speak for other Christians

but when I masturbate I like pictures of Salma Hayek and Eva Green. As for the crucifix.....yeah, how weird that a symbol of the faith is used to express emotion about that faith. That never happens

[Bonobo]

142. Too much information, dude. nt

[AnalystInParadise]

144. Just being as absurd

as the person I was responding to.

[WilliamPitt]

114. Wha

[Bonobo]

125. "It will be a Religious War, a sort of Christian Jihad..."

...fueled by religious hatred and led by merciless fanatics on both sides. It will be guerilla warfare on a global scale, with no front lines and no identifiable enemy."

[sibelian]

229. YES, I'm quite convinced that very nearly ALL of the non-xtians

who died on 9/11 WOULD agree with that, with the possible exception of a small number of non-xtians who would feel it appropriate to take offense, from beyond the grave, at a symbol commemorating their passing that isn't the right shape.

I am unsure how to ameliorate this sense of exclusion, as these people are excluded from breathing and cannot communicate their wishes to me.

[Vashta Nerada]

232. Thanks for replying to this...

even though I wasn't addressing you.

[sibelian]

233. You are most welcome.

[Gravitycollapse]

164. You left out Islam, FYI. Because you think Islam caused 9/11.

[AnalystInParadise]

166. No

I think 19 muslims caused 9/11. But keep fucking that chicken.....Please show me your tolerance and secular humanism by fucking that chicken

[Gravitycollapse]

172. Why didn't you mention Islamic symbolism in your post?

You named all of the major religions except for the 2nd largest. Why did you do that?

[AnalystInParadise]

177. To piss you off

you are predictable.

[Bonobo]

106. Two word response.

Take a guess.

[WilliamPitt]

109. Bless you.

_|_

[Bonobo]

119. Being lectured by you to not discuss hot-button issues.

You may think it is just a form of attention-getting porn OP, but then again, dollars to donuts that you are as white and waspy as the day is long.

[AnalystInParadise]

123. I am

Mexican-y (half hispanic actually)
and Catholic-y does that count?

[WilliamPitt]

129. "...dollars to donuts that you are as white and waspy as the day is long."

I'm white, raised Catholic, I like donuts, and I swear to God, the only person who knows what the fuck you're talking about right now is you...maybe. Sorta. Doubtful. Very, very doubtful.

Have fun storming the castle.

I see you.

[Bonobo]

133. "It will be a Religious War, a sort of Christian Jihad." Yep.

Go ahead with the cross thing.

It's the sort of muscle memory idiotic behavior that keeps it all rolling along.

[AnalystInParadise]

138. LOL

Yeah a cross at a memorial site will lead to the 2nd round of Crusades...........You sir or madam are the true performance artist.....this is self parody beyond belief.

[AnalystInParadise]

110. Jesus Saves?

n/t

[WilliamPitt]

117. Bergeron scores.

Like I said...

[Fumesucker]

141. Lobbing a molotov cocktail into GD is the whole damn point of many folks

You have no reason to talk about others doing that at all.

Do you not think 9/11 and religion are emotional for those who disagree with you also?

[WilliamPitt]

143. "Do you not think 9/11 and religion are emotional for those who disagree with you also?"

The point of the exercise.

*sigh*

People need hobbies.

[Fumesucker]

147. What do you think this is?

It might be work for you but it's stupid although entertaining hobby for a lot of us.

[AnalystInParadise]

150. So your hobby

is to be intolerant towards Christians and those who seek comfort from religious symbols being displayed at memorial sites? A bit obscure, but I am sure there is a Facebook group for your unique hobby.

[Fumesucker]

167. No, my hobby is arguing with stupid people on the internet about senseless stuff, just like yours is

Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you

[AnalystInParadise]

171. I am just here to

spread God's love. That is all. I am only in this thread because of the faux secular humanism on display. The "tolerance" on display towards Christians who seek comfort is revelatory, but exactly what I expected.

[Fumesucker]

180. Dude you're cracking me up..

I'm helping you get into heaven and you're pissed at me.

Matthew 5:10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you

Thankfully it's National Brotherhood Week

&feature=kp

[AnalystInParadise]

184. Maybe I will get in

maybe I won't. It isn't really up to you or to me. Fortunately for me the Book of Matthew is optional. Well I shouldn't just say me, fortunately for most Christians they are not wed to the Bible.

[Fumesucker]

191. No rules, just right..

[AnalystInParadise]

195. I am

so glad my God and my faith does not subscribe to that belief. It must suck to live in a world where there are no rules only what you believe.

Fortunately my faith does not allow that.

[Marr]

278. Is this Bill O'Reilly?

Seriously, first it was "bomb-throwers" and now it's "secular humanism".

Just a tip, those phrases sort of make it obvious.

[WilliamPitt]

159. "It might be work for you but it's stupid although entertaining hobby for a lot of us."

Dude.

[Bonobo]

169. Looks like you got spare time today.

You can pretend that DU is not a place for confrontational entertainment. But that would really show you off to be either naive or disingenuous.

You've crapped in this place enough times to have left some pretty bad stains.

[WilliamPitt]

181. "confrontational entertainment"

You: defined.

*sigh*

[Bonobo]

183. You. Unironic BS'er. nt

[WilliamPitt]

189. Perfect.

[Fumesucker]

176. Dude.. I just had someone arguing with me that helmets in cars would be actually dangerous

Seriously, it's like arguing against seat belts.

I fucking love DU, this place is hilarious.

[ChromeFoundry]

199. I agree. +1000

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

252. Uh oh

Will is claiming "gimmick infringement".

[liberal_at_heart]

127. Suppressing everyone is not the answer. Fighting to make it more inclusive is.

[Bonobo]

131. I don't disagree.

Let's see the Christian groups that want open religious ceremonies support a mosque at Ground Zero.

That would maybe make me change my mind.

[stevil]

146. A question.

If a Christian helped me to open my mind and embrace love of mankind and a liberal outlook would you look down on them?

[Bonobo]

151. Ummm, I don't think so.

But that's a "when did you stop beating your wife" question since nothing I have said implies I "look down" on anyone.

Look, if I work in an office, I don't want my boss sticking a giant cross in the lounge. He can put it in his office.

Even if lots of people in the company are Christian, it is still obnoxious to the ones who are not.

Does that make this issue clearer?

[AnalystInParadise]

153. Do you work in a cemetery and mass grave?

yeah I didn't think so.

[Bonobo]

165. What? Do you? nt

[AnalystInParadise]

168. At various times in the last twenty years

Yes.......

[Bonobo]

170. If Ground Zero is a mass grave, then I guess all faiths should be equally represented. No? nt

[AnalystInParadise]

174. You act like I have a problem with that

I don't.....

[Bonobo]

186. Dude, I asked you directly if an Islamic icon would be ok and you said "No." nt

[AnalystInParadise]

190. And????

It isn't ok.....but I don't care. I don't know how to break it down any more simply for you.

[Bonobo]

193. LOL. It isn't ok, but you don't care. Got it. nt

[AnalystInParadise]

194. See how easy that is

If only you could be as tolerant.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

197. Like shootin' fish in a barrel, I think.

[stevil]

179. OK

[
You may think it is just a form of attention-getting porn OP, but then again, dollars to donuts that you are as white and waspy as the day is long.]

OK wasp man. Shit....

[WilliamPitt]

149. Perfect flamebait.

Literally: perfect.

[Logical]

154. And you took the bait! nt

[Bonobo]

157. Perfect irony.

[WilliamPitt]

163. Announcing your purpose, yeah?

[Fumesucker]

182. If anyone should know flamebait on DU

I know you're more self aware than this, you old troller you.

[Bonobo]

187. He's in BS self-delusion mode apparently today. nt

[hrmjustin]

175. Well I think it should go in the museum but I respect others who believe differently.

[goldent]

198. I think there is more to this story than we know

I first thought that the American Atheists weren't thinking clearly, or didn't have their best people working on this, when they decided to make a legal challenge.

But it goes against any semblance of common sense, and has every appearance of masochism on the part of the American Atheists. The only thing that could make it worse would be if they won the case. Of course they have no chance of winning -- arguing that historical events that have a religious element are not actually part of history is absurd. And implying that the cross is somehow honoring the Christian victims of the attack shows a complete misunderstanding of its actual historical significance.

So I'm still puzzled at why the American Atheists did this. In another thread, I mentioned that sometimes major donors with an ideological streak can force organizations to do things that really don't make sense (as a condition of their donations). It can also be leadership gone amok in an organization that doesn't have a solid system of corporate governance.

[MO_Moderate]

245. They did this

out of fear and hatred of Christians, and for the publicity.

[bunnies]

261. Got a link to back that up?

[MO_Moderate]

266. A link?

To back up the assertion that a very small number of people fear some conspiracy theory about being oppressed by religion or even a theocracy being created?
To back up the assertion that a very small number of people mock Christians and use derogatory names when referencing them?
To back up the assertion that a very small number of people use meaningless things like this to make people feel offended and threatened enough to send them money?

If you refuse to acknowledge these facts, a link isn't going to change your mind.

[bunnies]

267. You claimed that American Atheists is suing out of "fear" and "hatred".

Most people would supply a link with such an allegation.

[Marr]

280. They're doing it because their suggested, inclusive plaque was excluded, while this

overtly Christian symbol was included.

[MO_Moderate]

281. The so-called cross gave comfort

and is part of the history of the site. A plaque saying a couple of people who didn't believe in a God also died here, means nothing to anybody.

[phleshdef]

200. I'm agnostic and I don't give a shit. This is not an important issue.

[Cali_Democrat]

210. indeed. nt

[LittleBlue]

213. Don't understand why people are mad at the OP

It's a legitimate point.

As an atheist, I feel apathetic toward anything religious. So it doesn't bother me that they chose an obvious Christian symbol for this memorial. They probably should have chosen something nonreligious. Yet compared to the so-called History Channel presenting biblical stories as historical facts, this cross doesn't even register on my atheist outrage meter.

[Bonobo]

216. Agreed and no, it is not high on my meter either.

Merely starting an OP doesn't imply that it is that big of a deal to me.

It's just like, my opinion.

[defacto7]

217. It's a fricken piece of broken building, people!

It's busted! It's junk! It's rusty metal and other toxic junk. I see no religious symbol, only a busted piece of architectural design used for stability and structural safety that didn't work. People want to worship that? or have their hearts soothed by a failed design structure?

Then again, some see the Virgin Mary in a piece of toasted wonder bread and sell it on EBay to people who need to be soothed by... the toast or god.

I don't get it, and for that I am glad.

[Deep13]

220. The building was made out of crossed I-beams.

If anyone finds a Taoism symbol, let me know.

[unblock]

255. this is a rather facile response. there was lots of debris, but they chose this piece for a reason.

i'm sure there were crossed i-beam debris in the shape of an 'h' or and 'i' or an upper-case 't', and probably even a '#' sign.

they threw those out and made a monument out of the one that looked like a christian religious symbol.

you can't put it all on the construction of the building when you know they sifted through the rubble for just the right piece of debris.

[Deep13]

260. I always heard the finding of the cross was a miracle.

That is, the result of divine intervention. Well, there is nothing remarkable about finding an iron cross when the building was made out of them.

[Enthusiast]

226. I do not like sockpuppets.

[Bonobo]

230. Who is a sockpuppet here? nt

[Enthusiast]

234. Sorry. I can't name names. I would have thought it was obvious.

[Bonobo]

236. Ah, you're right. Upon closer "analysis", I got it. nt

[LostOne4Ever]

227. As an atheist, I don't mind that the cross is there

I DO MIND that they won't allow in any type of memorial for nonbeliever.

All the AA wants is a plaque. One that they themselves have offered to pay for.

I see no logical and fair-minded reason to deny that.

I ALSO DO MIND how the AA has been made to look like the bad guys in this and how the OP in the other thread has not even acknowledged that is all the AA really wants.

[djean111]

231. Silly you. It is the persecution that counts. Atheists just wanted more symbols.

I am an atheist. A Jehovah's Witness, a very nice older woman, has been coming to my front door for over a year, maybe every three weeks or so. I always tell her that no, there is nothing that can make me believe in her particular god, or any god, but she just keeps smiling. I enjoy talking to her, except for the bible stuff, really.
Anyway - and this does have a point regarding that I-beam - yesterday afternoon she stopped by with another woman and they asked me if I knew what the bible and their god had in mind for this country. I said, oh, the Ted Cruz vision? They blinked, and started reading from their bibles. About how the Christians would have dominion over all others, etc. The Ted Cruz vision.

So that cross, today, makes me uncomfortable because I know the end game that some Christians have, and it seems like yeah, a cross planted in rubble is the desired result.

Not caring for the cross does not make anyone a joyless person. Just a person who does not care for the cross. Just like, presumably, all Christians don't believe that they should rule the world and gobble up all the money like a flock of Kochs.

[marions ghost]

241. Nailed it...

"So that cross, today, makes me uncomfortable because I know the end game that some Christians have, and it seems like yeah, a cross planted in rubble is the desired result."

I agree--there is Fundyism in this.

[marions ghost]

228. This is wrong

Normally I would not care about what people want to erect where, on their own property. But I did object to the ten commandments sculpture on public sites. I'm not an atheist but I think you have to be very careful with cultural icons that imply consensus. What they have done with this offends me. Consider the recent attempts to turn this country into The Republic of Gilead.

It would be better to use a piece of the wreckage in a more abstract shape, as iconic sculpture.
That would speak just as well to people of all religions or none.

This was an opportunity for inclusivity and solidarity --whatever you want to call it when you honor all people equally.

An opportunity missed.

[elehhhhna]

238. The display of a torture device @ the site of 911. Ironic, imo,

given what came after.

[JNelson6563]

239. More proof positive bible-god is lame.

So all-powerful bible god stood by and let this horrible thing happen but showed his presence by letting two cross beams remain standing in the form of a torture device, the cross.

This must be the same god who stands by and lets atrocities like baby rape, murder, heinous violence and such happen in the world every single fucking day.

By all means, let those who want to worship such an imaginary creature have at it. Some sick imaginations. And they take comfort from these thoughts, eh? Sick motherfuckers.

Julie

[thucythucy]

244. You seem to have grown in your sensitivity to these issues.

"I happen to know (from personal experience) that seeing a cross in a public space makes some people feel isolated at best and threatened at worst."

Glad you empathize with this. Glad to see you acknowledge and understand how something that might seem innocuous, even comforting, to some--perhaps even the majority--can be deliterious to others, and that their sensibilities ought to be considered by the majority, even if it's the vast majority. I'm very gratified to see you acknowledge that images have power, and need to be scrutinized for their impact, and I commend you for your sensitivity in this regard.

And yet, when people here on DU (mostly women but also a number of men) expressed pretty much the same feelings (of isolation and disempowerment) about the posting of the T & A Sports Illustrated Cover in General Discussion a month or so back, you seemed to be one of those who characterized their discomfort as "faux outrage." Those aren't your words, but in OPs like "Objectification? You really want to go there?" and "Something making you feel bad isn't the same as Misogyny" you seem to be saying that just because something offends some people (in this case, a number of progressive women and men on DU) is no reason to object to it being displayed.

This seems to be a bit of a disconnect.

Am I to assume you've come around on this issue? Or are non-Christians bothered by the public display of a cross somehow more entitled to their discomfort than those women (and some men) bothered by the objectification of women in what is supposed to be a progressive space open to all?

[Bonobo]

251. I think the analogy is a bit strained, but...

I do not participate myself in posting photos that make others uncomfortable nor did I ever say it was "faux outrage".

The OPs you bring up are an attempt A) to put objectification in a perspective that is larger than merely looking at T&A but which is, in fact, a POV which affects all genders, and B) an attempt to suggest that the term misogyny is used cavalierly when merely chauvinism or sexism or even just ass-hattery would be be more accurate.

[thucythucy]

276. All analogies are strained to a certain extent.

Some more than others. It's what makes for analogies as opposed to "identities"--that is, two situations entirely equal to each other.

Anyway, I specifically mentioned that you never used the phrase "faux outrage." But the wording of your OP on objectification seemed rather confrontational, even dismissive, and thus in league with those who did indeed use the phrase. You could have said, "Men are objectified too" or "Here are instances of male objectification" or even "Let's put objectification into a broader context than simply sexual objectification." Instead it was "You Really Want to Go There?" which came across to me anyway as less an opening to any useful discussion than as a challege to those bothered by the objectification inherent in the SI cover.

Similarly, to make a statement such as "Even denying that 'rape culture' exists is NOT misogyny (it just makes you 'feel' bad)" comes across as less "an attempt to suggest" any particular idea than it does as a denigration of those who believe there is such a thing as rape culture and categorize its denial as misogyny; and to minimize the impact this denial might have on people who know rape culture as lived experience. Specifically, to say both JUST [my emphasis] makes you feel bad and to put "feel" in quotes strongly implies that you regard such "feelings" as trivial, if not delusionary. If that wasn't your intent, then your wording here, as with the objectification OP, very much left itself open to misinterpretation.

If the appearance of a cross or crucifix in a public space comes across as intimidating and hurtful to some people (and I know that it does) and if, as you imply, such a feeling is rooted in both historical and perhaps lived experience (which I believe it is), then it is of course quite proper and reasonable at the very least to respond to those feelings in ways that are compassionate and understanding, and not trivializing and dismissive.

Similarly, if some people view the denial that rape culture even exists as threatening, even misogynistic, then that feeling needs to be addressed in ways that are in the very least respectful and compassionate. The denial of the very existence of rape culture might well be experienced in much the same threatening way by a rape survivor, for instance, as the appearance of Christian iconography by a non-Christian who has a background of religious based oppression.

To me the analogy isn't strained at all. Which is why I asked you about this in the first place.

Best wishes.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

253. I liken the whole thing to people finding Jesus in their toast

Wow. A cross beam looks like a cross. God and such. Yipee.

[JanMichael]

254. wtf? Why in the hell

are so many people worked up over this crap?

Look, if you like the cross, by all means, go see it. If you are an atheist/ agnostic, why the hell do you even care? It's just another damned cross- for gods sake, they are everywhere. Just ignore it. It doesn't mean an damned thing to you anyway.

Good god, this is a stupid thread. I finally looked at it today, and thought "shit! We really are that petty."

[Beacool]

256. Let me put it this way, I don't give a flying fig what the atheists think of this cross.

As someone who came out of the PATH train underneath the North Tower that morning, I think I have as much of a say as a whole bunch of people in front of a keyboard who didn't live through the ordeal.

The steel beams in shape of a cross were found two days after the towers collapsed. That cross brought hope to countless people in the weeks to come, particularly to first responders who lost dozens of their brothers and sisters in the collapse. There are plenty of other items in the museum that shouldn't offend the atheists' sensibilities.

The cross has become a historical item and should be on permanent display. One group is not entitled to deny another group something that doesn't meet with their approval.

[Nye Bevan]

258. But what about their "dyspepsia, symptoms of depression, and headaches"

Last edited Mon Mar 10, 2014, 01:01 PM - Edit history (1)

which their lawsuit claims is caused by the cross? Perhaps the museum should stock indigestion tablets in the gift shop?

[Beacool]

259. I'm fed up with people who complain about everything that they don't like.

Do these folks visit museums? I have seen all sorts of artifacts everywhere: Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc. I find them interesting and like to learn their history.

No one is asking these people to pray at the cross, but those of us who lived through the horror that was 9/11 and its aftermath (the missing notices plastered everywhere of people who would never go home again, the stench that I could smell for weeks from my apt. across the river in NJ, the memorials, etc.); know that these two pieces of steel brought comfort to many people. They have indeed become a historical artifact.

[Xyzse]

257. Well, aesthetically speaking.

I like the actual cross better.
The fact that it is bent out of shape makes it look like it has gone through a lot.

The newer one looks like an artifice and just doesn't capture the moment as well.
I'd have kept the pedestal looking like debris as well, which is even better.

Saying that, I do wish they allow that Muslim center that allows people to have contemplation in an area, which was a few blocks away from this.

Thing is, I tend to feel that I wouldn't begrudge them on this. If many derive comfort from such a thing, I don't feel like begrudging them this, especially if they allow other things around it.

Personally, I don't like it. It looks too artificial and is trying too hard, that makes it feel kinda tacky.
That is personal taste. I am sure some like it, but that is my impression of it and others are welcome to their views.

[aka-chmeee]

268. How inspiring!

This "Loving God" offs 3000 people and in exchange gives you a piece of scrap iron for "hope". Like the survivor of a plane crash claiming he was spared because god had a purpose for him. Really self centered when your god kills hundreds to improve your self esteem.

[Marr]

269. Is this memorial on public grounds? If so, I really don't see the argument.

Putting religious symbols in public spaces is inappropriate. If you're against putting the Ten Commandments in courthouses, you should be against this.

I personally think it's a fairly distasteful thing to display regardless of the space, considering the context. It almost seems like an acknowledgement that 9-11 was just a battle in an ongoing religious war. But taste is very personal, I suppose.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

272. Cui bono?

[OwnedByCats]

275. As a Christian

the Menorah or any other religious symbol other than a Christian one doesn't bother me. If atheists have a symbol, whatever that may be, wouldn't bother me either. It's called being tolerant of other's religious or non religious beliefs. I don't agree that atheists shouldn't have their own at the museum, I think they should have something too. Put up all different symbols, I really would not mind at all because it's not just all about me and my fellow Christians. It's about everyone.

Some atheists are upset because they have been refused their own symbol - I get that, I completely understand that frustration and I totally disagree with that decision. What I don't get are those who want it removed because they don't want it there period. I realize that some Christians are not tolerant and they are wrong. But atheists are equally wrong when they are intolerant to Christians, even to the ones that have no problem with them, such as someone like me who doesn't care one fig what others believe. How can you become what you hate? You don't want us to be intolerant, but it's ok for you to be? Be the bigger person and be tolerant of Christians who are not - I can tell you right now that would bother them even more than you not believing in a higher power.

[EvilAL]

277. It looks like you will be going into a church,

how can people not see it a religious symbol?

[marions ghost]

279. Bingo

If there were other pieces of wreckage around on pedestals I could see it as an important remnant. But it has been selected as THE main remnant--the main symbol of hope and survival of a nation--with miniatures of it being sold in churches as souvenirs.