beyond that cross at ground zero

[cheyanne]

This is a good learning experience for all of us on how discrimination works. Here is the catechism for the day.

Let's start at the beginning: Why was only a cross put up in the first place?

Because the majority did not even think about the other religions in America . . .no one thought: gee, i think that we should make this an ecumenical site for all Americans.

That's the way discrimination works: the majority isn't even aware of other's religions or non-religions. they assume that they should express their feelings in a public place, end of story.

So lessons learned:

a. devaluing others is an unacknowledged assumption in most social discourse.

b. the importance of diversity in widening the discourse.

Now that I've cleared that up, next question:

What should we do about it?

Don't remove the cross at this point. Include any others who want to honor the dead according to their beliefs. Including atheists.

[handmade34]

1. I may be off base here, but

the word ecumenical is commonly used to refer to a diversity of "Christian" religions and our concern here is for a diversity of ALL beliefs...

[cheyanne]

14. thank you for the correction.

Though some definitions of ecumenical include a meaning of "of world wide or universal significance", the most used one refers only to Christians.

[blkmusclmachine]

2. ,

,

[marions ghost]

3. I have to agree

..."the importance of diversity" has been missed here.

Put up another sculpture in the area--of the same size--just abstract twisted wreckage. Don't label it as having any religion attached to it.

Give the cross some company.

[Bonobo]

4. You said it very well when you called it a missed opportunity.

It was an event that should highlight our commonality, our shared fragility, our shared values and our shared love of life.

Instead it was another case of religion doing separating people.

Hell, put up a Baha'i monument which includes all religions or something. But for god's sake do not make it worse with more divisions.

[marions ghost]

10. Right, it's a very disingenous argument to say

that this cross is "secular and historical" and therefore not a problem--while at the same time everybody knows that Christians are labeling it "the miracle cross." A cross is pretty easy to make out of anything linear. If it helped Christians, then that can be documented in some other way, but the cross should not be isolated as a symbol of the tragedy as a whole.

I would be in favor of NO religions being represented symbolically at the site. It is not difficult to come up with a design that would suggest --using your words--commonality, fragility, shared values and love of life.

I am not at all against Christianity, but it would make me depressed to encounter this as an icon representing the tragedy. It smacks of Christian dominance, even arrogance, that I associate with Fundyism --why even would active Christians want that negative association?

[goldent]

6. I think there is already a bunch of other wreckage in the museum

from what I could see peering through the windows. You could say that everything in the museum besides the cross is "honoring" the atheists, which I think is grossly unfair to the non-atheists

[marions ghost]

11. Semantics

and divisive thinking.

See my post #10:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4638123

[Lost_Count]

5. Isn't the vast majority of what is at the site...

... Not spiritually oriented?

Or...

Do you need something that declares that it is specifically for atheists?

[LostOne4Ever]

8. Do you need something that declares that it is specifically for Christians?

...like a cross?

[Lost_Count]

9. I certainly don't...

... but others seem to get something from it so why take it away from them?

[LostOne4Ever]

12. Good question to ask the museum

Seeing as this is actually about the AA wanting to put up a memorial plaque and the museum refusing to even reply to them.

American Atheists even offered to pay for the plaque. But I guess others getting comfort from a memorial only applies to Christians...

[cheyanne]

16. A memorial for the dead is usually considered

spiritually oriented, even though it may not reference the particulars of that spirituality.

However, in a nation that is built on the concept of freedom of religion, to specifically reference one religion, at one site that is set up as a national memorial, devalues other points of view.

I think that atheists should be allowed to contribute and show their communiality (is there such a word?) along with everyone else.

Since the cross is a recognizable symbol of a particular religion, I understand the atheists' desire to have a recognizable presence at the site.

Here is part of the mission statement:

The Museum honors the nearly 3,000 victims of these attacks and all those who risked their lives to save others. It further recognizes the thousands who survived and all who demonstrated extraordinary compassion in the aftermath.

[Lars39]

7. There were over 90 nationalities represented,

not just "Americans". All religious beliefs and atheism that apply should be represented. If not, none.

[marions ghost]

13. Do we really agree with this?

--creating a permanent religious shrine in a public space --as a memorial to a tragedy that unites people of all faiths and beliefs?

This cross installation has now been made into a Christian shrine, elevated to that status by the "miracle cross" angle.

It's just not appropriate. But of course you'd cause a huge uproar by removing it. I guess we who think differently will have to lump it. It already has negative associations for me and I'm not an atheist whatsoever, but I admire them for protesting.

[cheyanne]

17. Yes, it would have been best to not have a particular religious symbol at

the site.

But their action should not render our response to it wrong. It is a point of view that needs to be addressed.

[marions ghost]

22. I said I support the Atheist action on this

Last edited Mon Mar 10, 2014, 02:43 PM - Edit history (1)

tho I am not an atheist. I don't think it will produce any changes, but it's important as a protest. Since Christianity trumphs all other religions in America, I doubt any organized religions would protest it. They should, but will they?

I see this cross installation as a symbol of what we DON'T want to see in America--religious shrines of ANY kind where a unifying non-religious memorial would be more appropriate. So I would not be in favor of adding other religious symbols anywhere in an attempt to provide equal time--where does that end? How do you represent all religions in symbol? Doesn't work.

I'm disappointed that intelligent Christians don't see these points. That's what tells me--it's a lost cause, no matter who wants to protest--because so many Christians of all stripes want it. It's very unsettling. But I think we're stuck with it.

Revised to add--you know, maybe we're not stuck with it. Maybe we shouldn't just give up on this. But a lot more people would have to protest.

[Vashta Nerada]

15. It should include all religious symbols, or none.

[Beacool]

18. No, that wasn't the reason.

When the towers collapsed, the two steels beams forming a cross were found among the debris. It was seen as a sign of hope. I think that it does have historical value and should be included as a permanent display.

"The discovery of a 17-foot steel-beam cross in the rubble of the World Trade Center towers two days after the 2001 terrorist attacks on America provided a tangible symbol of comfort and faith to many of those horrified by the events of September 11.

Some of those who had access to the WTC site at that time made pilgrimages to pray before the cross and leave behind written messages such as "God Bless Our Fallen Brothers." A few weeks later the cross was hoisted atop a 40-foot-high mound of debris on what was formerly a pedestrian walkway so that it could be viewed by a wider audience, and a religious service was held, during which the Rev. Brian Jordan sprinkled the cross with holy water and declared: "Behold the glory of the cross at ground zero. This is our symbol of hope, our symbol of faith, our symbol of healing." Countless other ceremonies and prayer vigils were held at the site of WTC cross in the weeks and months that followed. Two years later, the cross remains in place along Church Street on the eastern border of the 16-acre WTC site."



http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/wtccross.asp

[marions ghost]

20. This is a profound photo

but it still does not mean the cross itself should be made into a permanent public shrine.

Instead it could be installed along with the photos as an artifact of the event, in the museum. It should be enshrined as historical fact and part of the story.

A non-religious shrine is vastly more appropriate for a permanent memorial installation honoring the 9-11 dead. This is a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural nation.

I would think that even Christians would understand the insensitivity and the fundamentalist nature of the installation. This is a big mistake.

[Beacool]

21. It'll be a shrine only to those who choose to pray to it.

The others can just see it as an interesting object from the remains of the towers. I live by the live and let live motto. Things like that don't bother me one way or another.

[marions ghost]

23. Sorry to disagree

--it's symbolic no matter what you want to think about "live and let live." The permanent installation of it does exalt Christianity above others in so important a memorial. There were ways around this that obviously were not considered. Ways to honor all of the dead and express unity in the face of religion-based attack. There needs to be a solution here but I doubt there will be one.

I'm disappointed that this was not seen as unacceptable by Christians.

[Beacool]

25. Well, what can I say?

I think that the cross will remain and people will have to learn to live with it. Besides, if it offends them that much, they don't have to visit the museum. It's not as if it is by the entrance to their town's city hall or court house. People can avoid going there altogether.

[unblock]

27. yeah, to hell with jewish and islamic families of 9/11 victims

a melting pot of america died that day, but the museum is for christians, dammit!


nice.

real nice.

[Beacool]

29. Oh please, the drama.

Anyone of any faith can go there. Why would a Jewish person be offended by a cross? I'm certainly not offended by the sight of a Star of David.

[marions ghost]

28. It's a missed opportunity

to do something that would really be right and appropriate, rather than insisting on installing a symbol that many people have to avoid or feel negative about.

Your suggestion is basically: Satisfy the Christians--let everyone else who'd like to visit the museum just not go there. Kind of arrogant and insensitive, amirite?

Doesn't seem very "Christian" to me.

[Beacool]

30. Think what you want, but I don't see any problem with this artifact.

That's what it has become, a historical artifact.

[marions ghost]

31. I have no problem with it displayed as an historical artifact

but I think the siting --and making it stand out as the primary artifact --separate from other artifacts, was all wrong. It is the foregrounding of it within the site that is the problem. So it becomes in fact, a Christian shrine.

So on this issue I think Christians should be listening, if they have an ounce of sensitivity to people of other beliefs. It also crosses the line re church and state--this is a national memorial, which is as important as any we have in existence. To ask others to avoid it is the opposite of inclusive, the opposite of our national values. I would have no problem if this cross were displayed with other sculptural elements that were part of the buildings--and recognized as important to people at the time (through photos etc). But the cross was selected to represent our collective sense of hope and overcoming adversity. As a symbol, the cross in any material is far too complex to brush it off as merely "an artifact."

It is disingenuous of Christians to act like this is not in fact, a shrine, blessed by a priest. People of the Christian faith commonly get all pompous and scoff at atheists (and people of other religions) in this country. When you're the majority, you're #1 right? That is the context that others see this. I am disappointed in the attitude that this does not matter to Christians.

[Arugula Latte]

24. "God Bless our Fallen Brothers"

Where was their god when the planes were still in the skies?

[Beacool]

26. It's a question of faith.

It's personal and no one is forcing anyone else to believe in God. If those two pieces of steel brought comfort to first responders and workers who spent months clearing the debris, then that's good enough for me.

[cthulu2016]

19. Multiple wrongs don't make a right. Other religions are just as stupid as Christianity