Here is why Communism Can't Work

[RobertEarl]

Communism requires honesty and respect.

Being that everything is supposed to be shared equally in a commune, but there are so many people who will steal whatever is not nailed down, it is not possible to have communism on a large scale.

Because, what happens after so much hoarding, is that police must be hired. Capital must then be raised to hire police, and then judges, and then lawyers, etc, etc. etc.

At that point the commune has left the ideals of the commune and becomes socialist in nature. Socialism is community using capital to grease the wheels of society.

People will just not submit to self-governing, so communism can't work within a large scale society. It can only in small communes that are not subject to outside influences or liars within.

[rdharma]

1. It worked in some Amish communities.

Democratic Socialism is the best of all worlds.

[Scootaloo]

26. "Some Amish communities"

Three words, all key.

it wouldn't work nearly as well for all communities in a pluralistic nation-state

[Junkdrawer]

2. Ever grow up in a neighborhood of interlocking, extended families?

Very, very different from the atomized families of today. Vonnegut kept going on about that. I identified because Johnstown, PA (aka The Land That Time Forgot) was such a place in the 50s and 60s.

Going from here to there will require baby steps. By serendipity, in Pittsburgh, we discovered that shared-but-quality recreational resources, especially rails-to-trails, are such baby steps. People interacting with others while they're having fun and feeling better about themselves. Powerful.

[Junkdrawer]

7. More about Pittsburgh...

I was an early biker. Seemed that every year the traffic on the existing trails doubled. That's one hell of a rate of exponential growth.

By now the bike trails are so popular that bike lanes are appearing all over the city.

Coincidentally (or is it?)....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017177485

[Sarah Ibarruri]

28. Very powerful! Thanks! I think American isolation has made people accustomed to isolation, but

isolation leads to ill mental health, even more isolation, no cohesiveness or group strength, and no one to rely on. One is like a teensy sailboat in the Pacific. I like what you said about extended families and that sort of system type - a lot.

[Junkdrawer]

35. Here's one place Vonnegut goes into some detail on this:

http://austinkleon.com/2007/06/13/kurt-vonnegut-on-the-need-for-building-extended-families/

[Sarah Ibarruri]

37. Wow, what a great article! Thanks!

I’ve been saying this a long time, that extended families are good for health, physical, mental, and they provide a self-esteem that isolated individuals lack.

Whenever I say this, there are always one or two individuals (those who come from unfortunate dysfunctional families) who deny that this could be true. However, they are measuring the rest of the world through their (unfortunate) dysfunctional family lenses and think the rest of the world functions like their dysfunctional family did.

[hunter]

3. Um, look around. The wealthy 1% has stolen most everything that isn't nailed down.

They just let you use it in return for your miserable labors.

If you don't want to live by their rules, fine, you can go starve.

Or they put you in prison and make the rest of us miserable laborers pay for your keep.

:wohoo: capitalism!

Bah, fuck that.

[Zorra]

4. You might enjoy this, Robert ~ "From Fire to Autonomy: Zapatistas,

20 Years of Walking Slowly"

Speaking in the mountains of Chiapas, Mexico, on a cold drizzly New Year's Eve, the Zapatista Comandante Hortensia addressed the crowd: "Twenty-five or 30 years ago we were completely deceived, manipulated, subjugated, forgotten, drowned in ignorance and misery." She was communicating the official words of the Zapatista Army of National Liberation (EZLN) on the 20th anniversary of their rebellion, when thousands of indigenous people rose up in arms, took over dozens of major towns and villages in this southern state, and declared "enough is enough, never again will there be a homeland that doesn't include us."

Comandante Hortensia went on to explain how over the past two decades, they have constructed their own autonomous government, complete with their own health and education system, based in the indigenous traditions of their ancestors. Despite the continual efforts of the "neoliberal bad government" to displace them from their land, the Zapatistas have successfully recuperated thousands of acres of land on which they have constructed communities that are governed "from the bottom up." Community members participate in rotating government positions that operate under the democratic principle of "mandar obedeciendo" (commanding by obeying).

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/21427-from-fire-to-autonomy-zapatistas-20-years-of-walking-slowly

It's really a

[bossy22]

5. communism fails on large scales

because of general human nature. No matter how much we try, there will always be those of us who take advantage of others and so on. It also requires people to put the whole of society above the nuclear family- which has been shown to be almost impossible to actually do. It would require extreme social control (which was seen in places like the USSR) just to attempt to change this mindset.

[ZombieHorde]

6. Climate change

is the reason capitalism doesn't work. Some scientists are saying we have already passed the tipping point. If that is true, then almost no system can work long term. We would need to pour our resources into specific sciences and technologies to undue the impact, but we won't, because of capitalism. Capitalism trades human life, human dignity, and an environment that can support human life for profits for a few. Capitalism is our god. We will sacrifice everything we can for it.

[hunter]

19. Yep, that too.

We've got to reduce our numbers and quit fossil fuels.

How does capitalism accomplish that?

If it can't, then capitalism doesn't work.

[joeglow3]

21. Most free market countries have declining non-sustaining populations

How is capitalism preventing population control?

[hunter]

24. It seems to me if grandmas and grandpas are secure and independent of their children...

... and children can be expected to survive to adulthood, and when everyone is literate, and when the women in a family are not subservient to the men, that's when populations stop expanding. The economic system doesn't much matter.

Literate women who have political power, easy access to birth control, and jobs. That's what matters, not the "...isms."

[joeglow3]

29. Typically, you need a growing population to sustain what you are advocating

[hunter]

32. ???

Seriously?

[joeglow3]

33. Historically, yes.

That is why there is fear about the economic future of so many European nations. The US is in a better place, thanks to all the immigration we have, making up for the otherwise shrinking population.

[hunter]

38. Historically, declining populations were a symptom of economies going bad, not a cause.

Nations had declining populations because people were leaving for better places, or dying young. Sometimes it was a combination of both. In modern nations with easily available birth control methods and high living standards a declining population doesn't have to be coupled to anything bad.

[TupperHappy]

8. So glad I wasn't taking a drink when I read this

I would likely have ruined my monitor because of the spit-take.

[HereSince1628]

9. "Socialism is community using capital to grease the wheels of society" NOT

THAT is simply a belief, a red-herring, supporting the position you endorse

Quit the sophomoric overly broad endorsement and application of ideas.

Join the nuanced world of people with understanding.

[Wounded Bear]

10. All political systems require honesty and respect.

FIFY. Without honesty and respect, corruption will infiltrate any system of governance. Look at what is happening to our republican democracy.

[RobertEarl]

12. Capitalism requires honesty and respect for its success?

Learn something new every day here. And not all of it can be accepted as fact. Learned that too.

No, capitalism thrives on dishonesty and disrespect. Just look at Wall Street. King of the capitalist hill, it shoves aside all concerns except that which increases the hoarding.

[Wounded Bear]

14. I guess it depends on what one means by "success"...

For me, it involves the greatest good possible for the maximum number of people. IF capitalists operated with "honesty & respect" it would benefit more people IMHO, as would any system.

[RobertEarl]

18. Strictly speaking about capitalism, of course

The greatest success for a capitalist is to be king of the hill. A have more. A have most.

Presently we have a fairly balanced socialist and capitalist economic system. Or maybe it isn't fairly balanced. Certainly, there are way too many who are in the have nothing group.

Yes, the point you make is one that we share:

"IF capitalists operated with "honesty & respect" it would benefit more people IMHO, as would any system."

[LeftyMom]

11. Your posts about economics and political theory make your posts about science look well thought out

Literally every argument you just made is a better argument against Capitalism.

[zappaman]

15. +100

I would have thought that impossible, but here we are!

[LittleBlue]

13. It's simple economics

Without the drive to get "ahead", or the fear of falling "behind" on the socioeconomic ladder, people won't be productive. There is little motivation to produce when you're basically stuck. As if that's not enough, they don't produce efficiently based on supply and demand.

Economies that develop from Marxist principles just aren't competitive enough to survive, that's why capitalism won. If communism could outproduce capitalism while being more efficient, it would have won and we'd all be communist.

[RobertEarl]

16. Life is great, eh?

Capitalism has made it so that we live in a comfort level which exceeds that ever known by any other known society.

The problem is: at what cost to the natural world is our personal comfort?

There is a real debt limit that is out there. I fear the day the debt is called due. In the mean time, I'll have another, thank you very much!!

[DefenseLawyer]

17. Your definition of a "productive" worker

is one that produces more value than the benefit he receives. That value is your profit. You are certainly correct that capitalism beats communism at producing profit for capitalists every time. Hands down.

[Scootaloo]

27. Uhm... except that's not simple economics

That's a moral philosophy trying to claim to be economics.

Or rather an amoral philosophy, in specific Objectivism.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Yup, that is why

People in Northern Europe are screaming to be liberated from those Social Democratic shackles...NOT.

On the other hand Americans are stuck in place and afraid.

[NuclearDem]

20. So many things wrong with that I don't even know where to begin.

[Le Taz Hot]

22. Out of curiosity, I looked at his profile and found this little nugget:

". . .Watch my footprint on this blue-ball and check out chicks since i am quite single and available."

Refers to women as "chicks." Can't for the life of me figure out why he's "quite available. I'm thinkin' he's gonna stay that way.

[zappaman]

23. Chicks dig deep thinkers

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/doomsday-preppers/videos/prepper-profile-robert-earl/

[Le Taz Hot]

25. Good catch.

I'm thinkin' rattle-snake-lady might be a good match.

[alc]

30. human nature - groups/organizations break into sub-groups

Around 200-250 people is as big as any organization gets before breaking into subgroups. This goes for villages/towns, neighborhoods, corporations, militarizes, unions, and just about any other type of group that's been studied going back 1000s of years and around the world.

Not all people want the same thing from the group. And they break into subgroups of people who want the same things. Some of the things people want are

* power (tend to form the government for villages/towns)

* money (the group of business owners in the villages/towns)

* getting by but willing to work (the workers follow what the government and businesses ask)

* doing as little as possible (avoid work. take advantage of the other groups as much as possible)

As much as some people don't want to admit it, the last group does exist. It's a small percentage but occurs in almost all studies and causes resentment from the next to last group and friction with the first 2 groups. There is overlap with the first 2 (and the 3rd to a lesser degree). It's not a flaw in any implementation that's been tried, just the way groups work.

It's a small % of people are willing to work hard to get control/power/money. And a small percent don't want to work at all unless forced. It's human nature that can be overcome when everyone has a personal relationship to each other. People don't want to take advantage of each other when they know each other's names and family, and when they interact with each other socially. But that's not possible after about 150 relationships and there is group break down to a point where the group stops acting as a single unit before it gets to 250 people. The subgroups then break down further when they get big and each sub-sub-group starts competing with the other sub-sub-groups. Not everyone can get into the first 2 sub-groups (i.e. the 1%) and not every "slacker" refuses to work completely. So every sub-sub-group has some "leaders" who want the power and some slackers who work some but not enough to avoid resentment when that sub-sub-group gets to 200-250 members. With millions of people, a county has many sub-sub-...-groups with "leaders" putting their group in competitions with other sub-groups. Right or wrong, many of these "leaders" will claim they are being treated unfairly - they will usually be right because the members of the first 2 top-level groups (and all their subgroups) set things up that way even though they don't always realize it (or honestly believe that leadership is necessary and THEY are the right people for the job).

[spin]

31. A representative democracy such as ours also requires honesty and respect to function well. ...

I recently watched as James Clapper the director of national intelligence lied to Congress about the extent of the NSA's surveillance activity.

I understand the importance of gathering intelligence to combat terrorist activity but it should be carefully controlled and monitored to insure that the data gathered is not misused.

Sadly this is just one example of the lies the American people are told and lying seems to have little consequence. It doesn't seem to matter much which major party is in control. Of course politicians have always been known as liars.

The reason there are so few female politicians is that it is too much trouble to put makeup on two faces. ~Maureen Murphy

I may be wrong as I am only 67 years old but it seems to me that today our government is lying to us more than in the past.

I also have never seen such a lack of respect between the two major parties than I see today. Our two parties appear to absolutely hate each other and do everything they can to insure the other party can not succeed in any of its goals even when the majority of American citizens support them.

Showing some respect for those who disagree with your views often leads to compromise. Compromise doesn't always solve a problem but it helps to make headway and in time the problem can be largely resolved. Often progress in our nation doesn't happen overnight but may takes decades or in some few cases centuries. Every journey starts with one step.

I view our nation much like an ancient galley. We have set off across an ocean on a long voyage to a distant shore. If we all row together we will reach our destination. If those on the left side of the boat row but those on the right refuse, we will merely go in a circle. That's bad enough but it appears to me that some have not only stopped rowing but are instead busy drilling holes in the bottom of the boat!

[RobertEarl]

40. The raygun era ushered in the present day succesful lieing

I recall one issue i tackled some years ago. It was a cesspool of lies from the takers and the state was kinda well; what should we do?

The state instituted town hall type of meetings inviting everyone to the table. Over a series of meetings with the takers, the scientists and the public, the situation was hashed out and the state reps voted on the recommendation we came up with.

In the process, the lies were exposed, the science set down as the Truth and the reps passed a huge regulatory burden on the takers.

The media did jack, except finally toward the end, but the public responded well and helped make it easy for the reps to pass the regulations.

Last I heard, from an insider, was all the reps were asked to resign and the board they sat on was expanded to make sure appointed reps could not go so rogue again.

[spin]

60. Agreed. I remember the Iran-Contra Affair well. (n/t)

[FarCenter]

34. Greed and self interest are reliable motivators -- altruism? not so much.

So a robust way of organizing society is to harness greed and self interest to drive business and politics, while structuring both to limit the damage that any one person or group can do through competition and separation of powers.

[RobertEarl]

39. That can work

It has worked in this country, in the past.

Taxes were used to control the hoarding and distribute wealth more evenly. Those taxes built public infrastructure. Which increased productivity.

It was a fine socialist thing we had going for awhile. Now it's reverted back to too much capital hoarding via reduced taxing and less even distribution.

[FarCenter]

50. Hoarding of capital can only be reduced by a property tax on intangible property

In the past, a large fraction of capital was tied up in real and personal property. These were and still are taxed.

The problem is that now most taxes are income taxes. They do not reduce the hoarding of capital as stocks, bonds, and other intangible property.

[leftstreet]

36. Why is everyone suddenly so worried about communism?

odd

[TheKentuckian]

41. Lost their ever lovin minds. Cries of "Wolverines!" are surely forthcoming.

I believe the intent is to sub in a palatable villain for the wicked motherfuckers plundering us, stealing the commons, waging war for resources, and buying our government to maintain the smokescreen for said well respected dumpster fires.

[AgingAmerican]

42. Communism, like Libertarianism

is not a form of government, but an economic system.

You can't govern with an economic system.

[RobertEarl]

43. Libertarianism is an economic system?

I would have never imagined that. Can you explain how that works?

Communism is a societal way of living which leads to how that society is governed. It is based on community and sharing equally. With the use of capital kept to a bare minimum and used mainly just for trade with outside groups.

Note that modern Russia was not really communist. It was socialist with bad dictators taking over the government.

[AgingAmerican]

44. Libertarianism

Like communism, is an economic system. An economic system is the system of producing and distributing of goods and services and allocating resources in a society.

Where is the governing part in Libertarianism? Please explain now no government would govern.

Capitalism is also an economic system.

[RobertEarl]

45. Please explain the economic part of Libertarianism?

I can only see it as capitalism run amok.

If you can provide an example of a real world libertarian economic system, that would be cool.

A libertarian government idea is one that would have a government that is based upon allowing capitalism to be the sole guidance for government decisions. Capitalism needs, indeed, can not survive without governance because all would become anarchy and each competitor would just shoot the other. Libertarianism also would result in the individual not being told what to do in the society, which would again lead to failure as most humans would steal anything not nailed down.

[AgingAmerican]

56. It is an illusion

You are correct, there is no reality in Libertarianism. It is a Utopian fantasy like Communism was.

There are no real world examples of libertarian economic systems. It is all theoretical and will never exist in the real world.

This: "A libertarian government idea is one that would have a government that is based upon allowing capitalism to be the sole guidance for government decisions" is exactly what I am talking about. 'Governing' with economics = Fail. Just ask Boris Yeltsin.

[Inkfreak]

46. I don't think it much matters.

I'm fairly confident the US will not be switching over to Communism any time soon. Would be nice if we modified capitalism to benefit the working man more. Spread a lil wealth around. Have generous social programs for the poor.

[Nye Bevan]

47. It works great until the pigs keep all of the apples for themselves,

and send Boxer the horse to the glue factory when he cannot work anymore.

http://www.george-orwell.org/Animal_Farm

[jwirr]

48. IMO all forms of economics reguire honesty and respect. What is happening to our nation is a very

good example of what happens when this is not happening.

[marmar]

49. Who's been promoting communism? .... I've seen people advocating socialism, or ......

....... Northern European-style social democracies, but not communism.

And communism and socialism are not the same thing, you know that right? You wouldn't try to conflate the two on purpose, would you?

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. It be best that you take a comparative political system course at your

Local community college.

Trust me, none here has talked communism. What we have talked about was very American style social democratic system, like under that commie called Ike. It be a furthering of that actually and it was started by that other commie called FDR. You might have heard of them.

[unblock]

53. the fifties just called and reported a missing person....

[opiate69]

54. Communism is just a red herring....

http://m.

[NuclearDem]

57. Alright, you just made my day with that link.

That movie was a childhood favorite.

[opiate69]

58. To this day, it's still my favorite Tim Curry role

[tblue37]

55. It can work--but only in fairly small, homogeneous social groups.

Even democratic socialism, which I favor, works mainly in countries like Sweden, where the population is relatively limited and homogeneous.

The US is too darned big, and too diverse. Its regions should be separate countries, but even within regions the heterogeneity of the populace makes socialism less workable than it would be with less diversity.

It is human nature to form in-group bonds and to distrust, even to the point of overt hostility and aggression, those excluded from the in-group. Similarity of surface features is one of the most potent in-group markers, because as humans evolved, those who recognized family members as being safer, and strangers (those not like me or my family) as being more likely to constitute a threat, were more likely to survive and to successfully reproduce and protect their offspring.

Those who say racism and other forms of prejudice are not inborn but must be taught have it exactly backwards. Suspicion of and hostility toward those unlike oneself is instinctive, and the more obvious the difference, the more threatening the "outsider" (stranger) seems.

This is why we need to *actively* teach children to be tolerant of difference and to celebrate diversity. The *natural* tendency is toward intolerance and suspicion. That is why it is so very easy for demagogues to stoke hatred of the "other."

We who deplore such prejudice must never be complacent about having overcome or moved beyond racism or other such prejudices, but must instead never stop working against them and, above all, never stop trying to help youngsters to learn NOT to give in to any instinctive impulses they might feel toward rejecting others simply for being different from themselves.

[Puzzledtraveller]

59. I agree