the idiotic attacks on Snowden show exactly how petty and pathetic those folks are

[cali]

One more time:

It's not about Snowden.

It's about the NSA. It's about overreach. It's about a lack of accountability. It's about many things, but it's really, really not about Snowden.

[Blue_Tires]

1. All I've wanted to do from day one

is reconcile the parts of his story which don't jibe...If you consider that an "idiotic attack" then I don't know what else to say because I've asked the major questions repeatedly over the past year and 95% of them have remained unanswered...

Other than I'm sorry for trying to think this thing through critically from top to bottom instead of taking everthing I see or hear at face value...

[iandhr]

4. Nuance is important.

Last edited Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:34 PM - Edit history (1)

Thank you

Our 10 second sound bite world only allows us to ask hero or trader. We aren't allowed to consider that there might be something in between.

[Blue_Tires]

124. Thanks....

I think "nuance" went out with the 1990s

[taterguy]

288. Best god damn post I've read all day

[truedelphi]

8. A lot of people's stories do not jibe.

Take Senator Di Feinstein, for example.

Her story, if you will, is that she is a loyal Democrat, when in fact she is someone who basically single-handedly selected non-charismatic, totally unknown people to run as gubernatorial candidates, deliberately throwing two governorships to Ahnold Schwartzenegger.

Di Fi also has leaked sensitive DoD and Surveillance Information to her husband, so that he can then bid on contracts for his construction firms.

If Di Fi had not taken the time to re-write the Senate Code of Ethics, before her career as A Major Player in All Things Relating to Governmental Contracts, she would have been impeached by now.

A lot of us could care less about who Snowden was or is. What he did was to expose a NSA Surveillance program that is high on steroids, supported by those in government who want those big lucrative contracts.

It is a totally illegal program, and most of us in the know are focusing on that program. After all, that program affects each and every one of us, and that is where my energies lie, rather than on the pedigree or lack of pedigree of one Mr Snowden.

[randome]

15. What 'lucrative contracts' are involved with copying phone metadata records?

The cost surely approaches nil.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]

[truedelphi]

35. I think you need to check out this article:

Meta data center in Utah - 1.5 millions square feet of space:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/13/nsa-utah_n_3434175.html
From the above article:
NSA officials say the center will play a key role in the nation's effort to protect national security networks, and allow U.S. authorities to monitor for potential cyberthreats. In an email, agency spokeswoman Vanee Vines said that "many unfounded allegations have been made about the planned activities" of the center.


"NSA would like to confirm, on the record, that the Utah Data Center is a state-of-the-art data facility designed to support the U.S. intelligence community's efforts to further strengthen and protect the nation. Its operations will be lawfully conducted in accordance with U.S. laws and policies," Vines wrote.

She provided no additional details, however.
####

Those in the know understand that much of what could have been a Peace Dividend that would allow Americans to witness our infra structure undergo repairs, our schools enhanced, our hospitals and clinics given new equipment, instead will witness tens of thousands of acres of office space, devoted to NSA Surveillance efforts. Already across the Beltway, newly opened office parks are devoted to such efforts.

Some experts have stated that up to half the 1.2 Trillion dollar defense budget will end up with spying efforts. Surveillance and its inflated costs will make the old days of DoD $ 600 toilet seats look pathetically under-funded.

[bvar22]

67. Check Mate for another "idiotic" talking point.

Sadly, these talking points have more lives than a herd of Zombie Cats.
They can't be killed.
Shooting them in the head with logic, facts, support, cites, and references has no effect on them.
They show back up the next day.
repeated
.
.
. and repeated
.
.
.
.
and repeated, over & over.... again & again....
no matter how many times they are debunked.

"But the most brilliant technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly and with unflagging attention. [font size=3]It must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over. Here, as so often in this world, persistence is the first and most important requirement for success".[/font]

[font color=white]volume 1, chapter 6 of Mein Kampf (1925)[/font]

[Mojorabbit]

110. +100 nt

[truedelphi]

131. Notice reply 128, a few posts lower than yours.

Nothing can shut some people up.

Not logic, not actual links and articles, nothing.

[bvar22]

172. Bizarre.

You put the Multi-Billion Dollar Utah Complex right there in front of them,
and they can't see it.

Oh THAT?
Thats NOTHING,
and doesn't make any difference anyway.

NSA's Utah Home Is A 1.5 Million Square Foot 'Spy Center'



Besides,
it is absurd to try and make the argument that Keeping the Meta-Data is CHEAP...
so there is nothing wrong with doing that.
Completely Absurd,
and embarrassing to try to make such a claim on DU.

The unexplainable amount of effort and energy expended by DU Authoritarians is counter productive.
The contortions and embarrassment they are willing to suffer attempting to DENY that anything is wrong
only reinforces the argument that something is BAD wrong.
Otherwise, they wouldn't be working so hard to marginalize it.

[randome]

179. The argument is that no one needs a multi-billion dollar data center to store metadata records.

And we should know what this data center is to be used for. But to make the leap that it's to store metadata records is ridiculous.

The regulations clearly state that metadata records cannot be kept for more than 5 years. Anyone have evidence this isn't being followed? Not so far.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[bvar22]

194. I'll bet you a dollar to a dime that our Meta_Data WILL indeed be stored there?

Wanna bet?

[randome]

258. Oh, come on, they will probably also store manuals and calendars and paperclips there.

None of that means they built the data center for any of those purposes. It's clearly for something else, we simply don't know what it is.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

[marions ghost]

254. Yep

Deniers put a lot of energy into denying.

[defacto7]

231. Thank you sir! n/t

[Enthusiast]

235. +1 a whole bunch!

[randome]

128. What does this have to do with metadata? You're making quite an assumption there.

The metadata stuff is most likely composed of simple text. Do you understand how ridiculously little disk space something like that take up? No massive data center is needed, that's for sure.

I think we should know what that data center is going to be used for. But I don't see how it could have anything to do with phone metadata records.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You have to play the game to find out why you're playing the game. -Existenz[/center][/font][hr]

[OilemFirchen]

149. Actually, it's encrypted.

Which means that it takes up dramatically less space than plain text. And also makes it Super Secret Scary.

[randome]

155. Encrypted, compressed, existing in a state of quantum flux.

How many metadata records can dance on the head of a pin?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Sometimes it seems like the only purpose in life is to keep your car from touching another's.[/center][/font][hr]

[defacto7]

233. You do realize how much energy

it takes to process encrypted information, how much sheer heat it creates both making it and breaking it? Enough for them to have a running waterfall inside the complex to displace heat in the machinery. If I stand on my tippy toes I can almost see that complex from here. The only thing easier to focus on at that distance it the largest copper mine on earth which is in that general direction. I also know that it's location was chosen because Utah (Mormon) is supposedly the most American, the most patriotic state in the US. Imagine that! Right wing, Red, Religious, Utah! My hell.

It's not the hd space, it's the sheer power needed that makes it what it is... I mean that also as a metaphor.

[Enthusiast]

236. +1

[rhett o rick]

127. Why dont you get some facts and come back? nm

[sabrina 1]

270. Anyone who profits from policies they have any influence over, should leave office.

Feinstein's husband has profited hugely from all of these wars creating a glaring conflict of interest on her part.

That seems like a simple enough concept to anyone who cares about this country.

[Blue_Tires]

40. So for this totally illegal program

Why not open the floodgates and expose everyone breaking the law? He hasn't named a single name yet even though the documents and signed orders in his cache can be used as proof to secure indictments against most of NSA's higher-ups...I'd like to think Snowden and the rest of us would want to see justice served?

And while I'm grateful for *some* of the things he exposed because they truly served the public interest, I have a long-held suspicion (which is being confimed bit by bit) that we're not getting the full story -- That Snowden isn't telling us what we SHOULD know, he's telling us what HE WANTS us to know, which are two different things...Until I find out the "why" for this, Snowden is no different than the lowlives he's *sort of* ratting out...

[truedelphi]

70. Here is the flaw in the ointment of your logic:

The top name at the NSA, one James Clapper, has already been seen and heard lying to Congress. That is an impeachable offense, yet Congress has not bothered to call for his impechemnt.

If Congress won't do diddly squat about that impeachment, how would more names matter?

The other big point is that Congressional critters are in a feeding frenzy mode trying to secure Surveillance contracts for their family members etc.

I mean, Di Fi is just the tip of the iceberg.

[Blue_Tires]

92. And I've maintained from the start that despite the "show"

of shock and outrage, some, if not most of Congress already knew what was going on...And despite that show of shock and outrage they can vote to slash the NSA budget in a heartbeat if they wanted to...

And if you believe nothing will happen to the NSA flaks because Clapper got to walk away, then there's *really* no reason NOT to out everone else -- Of course those charges could be more serious than perjury (fraud, graft, corruption, etc.), so maybe those will stick a little harder...I just haven't heard the first half-decent argument for protecting lawbreakers you have documented evidence against...

[truedelphi]

101. Well it could be that if we went after every single one of the guilty, we

Would have only Maxine Waters, Jackie Spiers and Garamendi left, plus one or two Congressional janitors.

[freebrew]

256. Really?

You wrote: 'they can vote to slash the NSA budget in a heartbeat if they wanted to... '


And I know a bridge for sale in Brooklyn...interested?

[KoKo]

83. He and Greenwald have stated over and over...that they didn't want to expose names...

It's the programs they are interested in exposing. And, by exposing the programs that affect all the people they are spying on here in the USA and all over the world...that hopefully the security can be fixed so that companies are not scooping up private information on citizens and storing it indefintely in these giant warehouses that are being built by the NSA to store everything we write and post on line (including on social media) and DU.

Check out the link I gave you which gives info about the worst of this starting after "9/11" and Bush so you will see this isn't about Obama but about the NSA Spying on Citizens that Obama hasn't been able to stop and in fact that these agencies who are payed with taxpayer money are almost going Rogue in contracting out the information they collect on us to Private Companies now (who aren't accountable to Govt. Oversight)...which is how Snowden got his info and why he was so upset that he started to document it.

He wasn't interested in OUTING PEOPLE but the SYSTEMS in our Government and Private Companies who were abusing Power by targeting ALL OF US!

Please see the link from EFF that I posted to you for info below in this thread.

[truedelphi]

96. Did you get a chance to watch this week's "The Good Wife."

Fun and pertinent romp about what is going on with all the feuding and fussing between the alphabet agencies.

And how people in business who suspect that DEA or DOJ might be listening in, don't at all realize that the level has been upped a notch, by the massive NSA spying.

I think CBS has a website where you can stream this week's program and watch it any time you want. (It might be that you can't watch this week's episode until next week, though.)

[Blue_Tires]

123. I'm aware of their stated reasons

and I've written my points against them in other threads...I just don't know why there are so many inconsistencies in their explanations...

[bvar22]

97. Clearly, Snowden isn't finished.

He said today that he has much, much more info.

He certainly has something that STILL scares the beejeesus out of our Security/Mass Surveillance Industry.

There can be multiple reasons why NAMES haven't been yet released.

*Naming the Names could possibly endanger individuals that don't deserve it.

*Maybe he is giving friends time to run for cover

*Maybe he is using The Names to coerce criminals into better behavior

*Maybe he is black mailing them of their ill earned loot.

OR
(and this is the one I will bet on)
*Maybe he just isn't ready for the Grand Finale'


So far, he has done a masterful of releasing this information in digestible bits to keep the Public's attention, and allow in depth analysis of the individual bites.

In addition to being an intelligent, patriotic American who believes in our Constitution,
he has shown himself to also be an educated, well spoken advocate.


Regardless,
you can rest assured that:

*He STILL has something that scares the beejeebus out of the right people
AND
*More will be revealed.

I am curious how this will all play out.
I see two alternatives:
*The Authoritarians will be successful at capturing Snowden,
and stamping out any reform movement that results from his disclosures
(IOW: The Status Quo will prevail...and get even worse)

OR

*Our Constitutional Protections will be stronger because of Snowden's courage,
and those who would usurp, obstruct, or invalidate these protections specified in the Constitution will be seen for what they are.

*Rampant Government Secrecy and Democracy can not co-exist.

*Persecution of Whistle Blowers and Democracy can not co-exist.

*Government surveillance of the citizenry and Democracy can not co-exist.

*Secret Laws and Democracy can not co-exist.

*Secret Courts and Democracy can not-co-exist.

*Our Democracy depends on an informed electorate.

You either believe in Democracy,
or you don't.
It IS that simple.

[truedelphi]

102. ^^^^^^^ n/t

[woo me with science]

107. ^^^^^^This is the correct answer.^^^^^

[Blue_Tires]

108. Well I for one hope I'm not drawing

Social Security by the time he gets around to it...

And I'd be appreciative if he prioritized the hard stories before the fluff he uses as a buffer from time to time (the "Ask Zelda" piece last week was certainly a waste of time, for instance)...

And I'm not convinced that the Authoritarians (I assume you mean the ones in Washington) care that much about capturing him unless he does something silly like show up on U.S. soil and beg to be arrested...They were probably very interested in nabbing him early on, but for now the likely course of action for them is to close ranks and weather the storm...

[jsr]

190. +1

[defacto7]

234. That's the one ^

[Mojorabbit]

266. Yes!! nt

[sabrina 1]

272. I have a feeling that Snowden is not the only one who had/has serious problems with

all of this. We might be surprised when we find out how many people inside the government, state dept, defense, etc who are heart broken over the direction of this country since 9/11 became the excuse for every kind of violation of the American people's rights, not to mention all those others who are no longer here to even have any rights.

Back during the Bush years, people were not always aware, many inside his administration, Republicans mostly, quit, or like Drake eg, exposed the disturbing policies they witnessed.

Because in the end, these things rise above party politics for those who actually care about their country.

And yes, thankfully Snowden made the decision not to allow himself to be silenced after witnessing what happened to those who 'went through legitimate channels'.

The people's right to know, trumps any violation of laws that prevent them from knowing, see SC ruling in the Ellsberg case.

[George II]

280. So, Snowden has "much much more info", and he's holed up in Moscow.

Interesting. Just who is he planning on giving that information. Or better yet, since he ultimately intends on releasing it, who will he release it to first?

Seems like in the two major international "crises" that have occurred since Snowden went to Russia with millions of sensitive documents, Russia has come down on the side OPPOSITE the US - Syria and Ukraine. This after Russia has been relatively chummy to the United States in the few years prior to Snowden traveling first to China and then to Russia.

[bvar22]

284. I expect Snowden to continue doing exactly what Whistle Blowers do.

He will release this information to accredited Journalists and News Agencies.
Their Editorial Staffs will then review the information,
and publish what they deem OK to publish.

Since there is absolutely no evidence that Snowden has done otherwise,
there is no justification for you to imply otherwise.

George II implying that Snowden is some kind of traitor for challenging The Crown The Government is deliciously ironic.
The Royalists said the exact same thing about the early American Revolutionaries.

They called them "cowards" too because they wouldn't turn themselves over to George III for judgement,
or stand up in straight lines and let the British gun them down.
The Early American Dissenters thought it is smarter to Run Away and live to fight again.
I agree.

[George II]

287. His existence in Russia is as a guest of the Russian government.

Drawing parallels between him in the 21st century with those living in the 18th century is ludicrous.

[bvar22]

292. And yet those parallels exist.

Calling them "ludicrous" does not change that.

In many ways, Human Beings haven't changed much in the last 200 years (or 2000 years).
Many still live by "parallels" set down in ancient books that remain valid today.

In the very early days of civilization,
our fathers understood that just making stuff up and using that to attack another member of the community was a BAD thing.
That parallel is still true today.

Dissenters who rock the Establishment Money Boat boat are viewed as villains & traitors by those who own the boat.
That is as true today as it was back in the time of George III...or George II for that matter.

Those who don't learn from History are destined to repeat it.

Cheers!

[GoneFishin]

276. Fuck the "only metadata" talking point. We are way past "only metadata". It was a bullshit point

from the start, and it is even more meaningless today.

[truedelphi]

290. Yes indeedy. When even Hollywood movie star Shia LeBoeuf can explain that

A consultant on a film that he worked on could re-play for him a phone conversation he had had some two years prior, well, that shows that the meta data is a whole lot more than mere phone numbers and times.

[KoKo]

12. What are your questions about the parts of his story which don't jibe, though.

Maybe if you could list them some here could answer? BTW: you just posted a video of primary school kids re-inacting Snowden here on DU. So what was it you couldn't understand from the video?

[Blue_Tires]

48. I just didn't want to type out dozens of multi-part questions

only to have it fall off the front page of GD in 30 seconds...

And let's be real for a minute -- Too many DUers on both sides can't discuss the issue without flinging shit at each other...Guess I need to start my own blog or something...

[KoKo]

64. Here's a Great Link with a Video and lots of Resources you can check out:

(The EFF Defended "Democratic Underground" in a Lawsuit from a RW'er trying to charge DU with copyright infringement. And EFF won the case for DU...so you can take them seriously) The site is interactive and the Video is at this link along with more info.


https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/how-it-works


Electronic Frontier Foundation
Defending your rights in the digital world


NSA Spying

FAQ
How It Works
Key Officials
NSA Primary Sources
State Secrets Privilege
Timeline
Word Games

How the NSA's Domestic Spying Program Works


The NSA’s domestic spying program, known in official government documents as the “President’s Surveillance Program,” ("The Program&quot was implemented by President George W. Bush shortly after the attacks on September 11, 2001. The US Government still considers the Program officially classified, but a tremendous amount of information has been exposed by various whistleblowers, admitted to by government officials during Congressional hearings and with public statements, and reported on in investigations by major newspaper across the country.

Our NSA Domestic Spying Timeline has a full list of important dates, events, and reports, but we also want to explain—to the extent we understand it—the full scope of the Program and how the government has implemented it.

In the weeks after 9/11, President Bush authorized the National Security Agency (NSA) to conduct a range of surveillance activities inside the United States, which had been barred by law and agency policy for decades. When the NSA’s spying program was first exposed by the New York Times in 2005, President Bush admitted to a small aspect of the program—what the administration labeled the “Terrorist Surveillance Program”—in which the NSA monitored, without warrants, the communications of between 500-1000 people inside the US with suspected connections to Al Qaeda.

But other aspects of the Program were aimed not just at targeted individuals, but perhaps millions of innocent Americans never suspected of a crime.

[Blue_Tires]

76. Thank you, I've seen it

In fact I've been meaning to e-mail them a couple of suggestions to add to their timeline that I dug up from another site...

My understanding of the story increased tenfold a couple of weeks back, once I started to finally research things on my own instead of waiting for Greenwald's next big reveal, which may or may not actually tell me something...

The irony of course is now that my understanding has increased, so have my number of questions about Snowden and Greenwald...

But it's moot here anyway -- Until something changes we're going to have the same 450+ post Snowden thread each week rehasing the same old tired stuff with no resolution...I've been waiting for this story to get to "Chapter Two" for months now...

[KoKo]

100. I think your real question is: "With all this info coming out...Why is our Government

NOT Reacting to It ....if its as serious as Greenwald/Snowden and many DU posters who've been here through Bush Years are pointing out why is there nothing being done. So...it could seem that they don't take it seriously....so why should You?

[Blue_Tires]

113. I take a lot of things seriously that others don't

it's just how my brain is wired...

I just see it as a puzzle to piece together so I can get a full picture...And when some things are represented as differently than they truly are, I always want to know why....

[KoKo]

164. I can understand that...but, you didn't answer my question about what I asked you...

Is your question about Snowden/Greenwald that you don't understand if this was a serious as so many think it is...then Why Hasn't our President....done something about it.

I still think this is what is the crux of our questions. IOWD ....if it was that SERIOUS....then Surely our Government and President Obama would have come out AGAINST IT.

That Our Government/President Obama hasn't done so...leads you to believe that Snowden/Greenwald/Manning were just some kind of RW'ers in disguise working with the RW against our President and his Administration?

Is that what you are thinking?

[truedelphi]

87. Thanks for that link. n/t

[woo me with science]

112. Thank you for the link. nt

[cui bono]

46. Then that's not an "idiotic attack". There are plenty "idiotic attacks" of Snowden on DU though.

And not enough concern over the unconstitutional spying.

[MADem]

137. Look, you either jump on the bandwagon and support Snowden wholeheartedly, without any reservation

or conscious thought to the issues, or you're a....TRAITOR!!!!!!!

Get it? There VILL be no deviation!! NONE!!! You vill toe the party line, stand at attention and salute the Hero mitt der hipster glasses!!!

[PoliticalPothead]

166. If baseless smears and personal attacks against Snowden count as "conscious thought"

then I'd rather not be conscious.

[MADem]

257. Whatever.

Questioning the guy's story line on his little Road To Damascus isn't smearing him, though--no matter how much you want to believe otherwise.

[kardonb]

210. day one

Amen to that ! In my eyes , he is still a traitor ! I am sick and tired of how he is made out to be a "hero" by people who want to grab at any straw to denigrate our government .

[CJCRANE]

2. We live in a big world. There are competing powers both inside and outside America.

Knowledge is power so it's interesting to speculate on the motives and ramifications of Snowden's actions.

Overall I think he did a good thing but I wonder what other information Snowden, Greenwald and Omydar have that they are holding back.

[Maedhros]

39. The answer is easy for Omydar: none.

He is a financier, and has no involvement with the reportage.

[RobertEarl]

3. It is simplistic thinking

Either Obama or Snowden. Since Snowden is exposing the Obama administration then those who think they have to protect Obama become frothing at the mouth anti-Snowdenists.

And of course there are the plain authoritarians who think all authority is good.

[treestar]

27. Meh, that's not true

It is the Snow fans who insist it has "embarrassed Obama" so that is made up of whole cloth from their fantasy. The Snow fans refuse to acknowledge that Obama cut back on the excesses of Bush, so to me that shows ODS is behind the whole thing anyway - they don't care about Snow so much as they think it harms Obama, Snow is their hero only because they think he harmed Obama.

[Maedhros]

44. What you describe may apply to a very tiny minority of individuals who oppose NSA

surveillance activities directed against American citizens, but not to the great majority.

ODS is as ridiculous an accusation as BDS was.

[cui bono]

49. You negate any serious points you might have by using the term ODS.

Period.

[VanillaRhapsody]

114. as if it doesn't exist!

as if NO Snowden supporter could possibly be subject to right?

[cui bono]

145. Not on DU from what I've seen. I see a lot of well thought out criticisms of policy.

I see that term used in response to well articulated criticisms and then the criticisms themselves not refuted with any facts.

If it did exist the criticisms would be easy to refute, but they rarely are, they are usually just met with name calling and smileys.

[VanillaRhapsody]

184. OOOOOH of course not

not AT all!

OH you mean the name calling YOU do is Okay though!

[cui bono]

238. I purposely refrain from using Obamabot, which would be the equivalent of ODS

because it doesn't accomplish anything.

I try not to name call at all, but I might slip up on a rare occasion and do it in retaliation. There are some, and they (and you) know who they are (as do you), who like to use ODS on a regular basis. As I said, it's pretty much saying they have no substantive argument to make about policy so they have to resort to name calling. Name calling that is not only not accurate, but originated in a right wing meme.

And btw... your post kind of illustrated my point about not having anything to refute what was said, so instead you attacked me, albeit without the name calling. Rather than address what we were talking about you try to turn it around to deflect. Typical.

[delrem]

153. Yet you just gave a prime example showing it *is* true! nt

[bvar22]

198. ODS is behind the whole thing!

Right.

ODS made Clapper LIE under oath to The Senate.

Got it.

[L0oniX]

193. Obama Ben Snowden?

[woo me with science]

5. +1 They also show how creepy, dishonest, and authoritarian our current politicos have become,

that there is such incessant, manipulative astroturfing on this issue (and others).

[riderinthestorm]

6. I said this on another thread and will repeat herebut I truly hope if I ever do something wonderful

I hope nobody spends 24/7 dredging up stupid shit I said and believed in my early twenties to smear my effort.

K&R cali. Agreed 100%

[ProSense]

7. Snowden: My Leak Has Benefited 'Every Society In The World'

Snowden: My Leak Has Benefited 'Every Society In The World'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024639655





Fuck Snowden.

[Marr]

10. I'm beginning to think you're a piece of code that just posts links according to keywords.

You do realize this is kind of making the OP's point, right?

[Ed Suspicious]

18. That second sentiment sure comes full circle then. Who switched on the Obamabot?

[ProSense]

19. LOL! Leave Snowden, hero, alone.

[Ed Suspicious]

23. Well at least the blue links and wall of text that isn't yours seems to have lessened.

It's fun to witness here the depth your original thought.

[ProSense]

28. Blah. Stop making fun of Snowden

or I'll keep making fun of you and calling you "Obamabot" and oh, "blue links."

Yeah, the mentality of a Snowden fan.

[Ed Suspicious]

29. Bored. Adieu.

[ProSense]

30. LOL!

Ran out of lame insults?

[LanternWaste]

31. They appear on most, and often instigate, threads about him... so...

"the mentality of a Snowden fan..."

They appear on most, and often instigate, threads about him, telling us how much others love him in addition to other petulant irrelevancies...

[Logical]

79. Temper temper! nt

[rhett o rick]

129. I smell desperation. And your rude emoticon is unbecoming. Just sayin. nm

[Marr]

25. Thank you for addressing my concerns about Fuck Snowden.

I agree that Fuck Snowden is a major issue facing us today, and I pledge to support all future Fuck Snowden legislation. Be sure to sign my petition to advance Fuck Snowden causes today, and as always, your donations are greatly appreciated.

Fuck Snowden!

(myName)

[G_j]

36. good one

that makes it easy for us idiots. I can relate to that.

[BlueJac]

37. Our rights have been violated and you don't give a shit........

I am glad you didn't write the Constitution!!!

[ProSense]

41. I "don't give a shit" about Snowden.

Apparently, his fans have to resort to obfuscation and red herrings to protect him from ridicule.

[G_j]

57. that's your best joke of all

you don't give a shit about him, yet you can't stop posting about him. I think we got the point that you think he is a jerk. And if he is, so what?

[ProSense]

59. Hey, I laugh at Rand Paul and other clowns too.

I laugh at Cheney and Putin.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024638426

[Pholus]

111. Ahhhh, Pro, there is only ONE thing to give you for that little gem!

See, that's how I knew the NSA domestic spying is a horseshit idea -- Cheney loves it. Frak, in the finest Al Gore sense he invented most of it.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/28/dick-cheney-nsa-foreign-surveillance-cnn-interview

I always say you can judge someone by the quality of their associates. And who are the higher ups associated with all this surveillance BULLSHIT?

Clapper -- Bush appointee

Alexander -- Bush appointee

Hayden -- Bush appointee

But hey these whooshing-door GENIUSES completely are so busy "collecting it all" and figuring out ways to identify nekkid people in webcam photos domestically that they got caught with their pants down by an actual threat, resulting in this unbelievably PATHETIC ass covering from today.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/theoval/2014/03/10/obama-james-clapper-ukraine-russia-john-mccain-intelligence/6250449/

Of course, I have to say that Clapper was probably not selecting his least untruthful statement when he describes living through massive intelligence failures during his career. His fingerprints are all over most of them.

You SAY you are laughing at Cheney but face it: YOU ARE CARRYING HIS FRICKING WATER FOR HIM!!!!!

[BlueJac]

177. AND, I'm laughing at your nonsense!

[truedelphi]

99. Your ROFLMAO smilie made me realize how wrong I have been!

Why when you take the time to post a smilie, I guess that trumps all logical arguments!

[treestar]

68. Our rights have not been violated

Eddie is the king of wild exaggeration. Eddie is the one using overdramatic language and continually drawing attention to himself, and making it about himself.

[G_j]

77. really?

Our rights have not been violated???????

I'll have to say, that puts your credibility at zero in my book.

[woo me with science]

80. Exhibit C

Mass spying on its own citizens
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014560257#post7

Fabrication of evidence trails to arrest citizens
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023406605

Surveillance of sexual activities
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014658585

Complicity in "Kill List" assassinations
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024474152

Lying to Congress
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023491179
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014525329

Lying to the Supreme Court
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/terrorism-suspect-challenges-warrantless-surveillance/2014/01/29/fb9cc2ae-88f1-11e3-a5bd-844629433ba3_story.html

Spying on Congress
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4620624

Spying on foreign citizens and pressuring foreign govts to adopt mass surveillance
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024622978

Spying on political "enemies" and to suppress dissent
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12527904

Corporate espionage
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014709203
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023923016

That's a hell of a mountain of corruption to try and bury.

[G_j]

88. thank you for this

though, I'm sure you know the person you responded to has no use for it.

[riderinthestorm]

89. I think we're up to Exhibit F or G - something like that. God knows they're trying everything

[Autumn]

94. Gee woo that's a lot of reading. And it doesn't quite fit the talking points.

So don't expect any thanks for the links. But as for me, I always appreciate the links.

[truedelphi]

109. Maybe those who have their heads up where the sun don't shine

Haven't had their rights violated. (Or at least, they don't think they have.)

But it is a serious matter.

If you don't think that there could be a coordinated effort to relieve business people of insider information, if you don't think that should the halls of Congress and the Occupant in the Oval Office become even more stridently Corporatistic, then I guess it may well be pointless to have the discussion with you.

But here is what Snowden said today at SXSW:

Ben: (The moderater: So Ed, if the NSA is willing to take these steps that actually weaken security, that spread vulnerabilities that make it in some sense easier not just for us to do surveillance but for others to attack they must think there is an awfully good reason for doing that. That there are bolt collection programs that these activities facilitate the collected ____ _mentality that it really works. This is a very, very effective surveillance method that is keeping us safe. You sat on the inside of the surveillance systems for longer than people realize. Do these mass surveillance programs do what our intelligence officials promise to Congress that they do? Are they effective?

Ed: “They are not. That is actually something I’m a little bit sympathetic to and we got to turn back the block a little bit and remember that they thought ___ was a great idea but no one had done it before, at least publicly. So they went “hey! we can spy on the world all at once. It will be great, we’ll know everything.” But the reality is, when they did it, they found out that it didn’t work. But it was a ___ so successful in collecting data. So great at the contract that no one wanted to say no.

But the reality is now, we have reached point where a majority of people’s telephone communication are being recorded - we got all these metadata that are being stored - years and years. But two independent White House investigations found that it is has not helped us at all, have not helped us.
Beyond that, we got to think about what are we doing with those resources, what are we getting out of that? As I said in our European Parliament testimony, we’ve actually have tremendous intelligence failures because we’re monitoring the internet; we’re monitoring, you know, everybody’s communications instead of suspects’ communications. That lack of focus have caused us to miss news we should have had. Tamerlan Tsarnaev, the Boston Bombers. the Russians have warned us about it. But we didn’t a very poor job investigating, we didn't have the resources, and we had people working on other things. If we followed the traditional model, we might have caught that. Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab the underwear bomber, same thing. His father walked into a US Embassy, he went to CIA officer and said my son is dangerous. Don’t let him go to your country. Get him help. We didn’t follow up, we didn’t actually investigate this guy. We didn’t get a dedicated team to figure what was going on because we spent all of this money, we spent all of this time hacking into Google and Facebook to look at their data center. What did we get out of that? We got nothing. And there are two White House investigations that confirm that.

#### Material that appears redacted is a result of the fact that several proxies were used to have the Snowden SXSW connection.

[Bluenorthwest]

132. Are you sure? We gays have plenty of rights according to you, but none are violated?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022947372#post283

[treestar]

22. the irony is here you are doing the same thing to pro

that the OP whines about for Snowy. Attack the person, not the message or what's in the post, in Pro's case.

[cui bono]

56. Um, no. Seriously, what was the "message" in the post?

It was exactly what it was called out as, a perfect example of what the OP is about. It was really nonsensical in relation to the OP as far as discussion goes. The "message" of the post is that PS can't have a real discussion about the subject of the OP and so she resorts to yet another swiftboat attempt on Snowden. One that makes no sense at all. The "message" is that PS is making one of those "idiotic attacks" and proving cali's point.

There is no other "message" in her post.

[treestar]

66. what's wrong with attacking Snowy, from everything to his crimes to

his flight to his latest exaggerations?

The OP calls people "pathetic" attacking anyone who disagrees about the sainthood of Edward, rather than making an OP with any substance at all.

Prosense can attack Snowy all she wants. He's made himself a public figure. The OP attacked dissenting DUers - look at its title.

[cui bono]

74. One, the attacks are meant to distract from the real issue, the unconstitutional spying.

Why are the Snowden attackers also ignoring the NSA spying? I know why, do you?

And again, the entire "message" of PS' post was simply proving the OP correct. There was no other "message". It was rude and pathetic and an attempt to ridicule.

Sure, anyone is free to attack Snowden all they like, and they are free to not care that they look like an idiot while doing so. And they are free to ignore the unconstitutionality of the NSA spying. They are free to do all sorts of things but they are not fooling anybody as to why they are attacking Snowden with full fledged idiocy.

[treestar]

84. the OP is not about NSA, it's about "pathetic" DUers and their "idiotic" attacks.

[cui bono]

93. Exactly. Thank you for making my point.

[VanillaRhapsody]

118. Yes your "point" was to name call other DU'rs that don't subscribe to your beliefs...

[Cha]

229. Results of your jury, VR..

On Mon Mar 10, 2014, 08:18 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Yes your "point" was to name call other DU'rs that don't subscribe to your beliefs...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4640765

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This poster ridicules others and repeatedly blames them. If someone actually did half of the things this poster accused them of, browbeat them for, and nastily said they did, they wouldn't be here anymore.

This poster needs to tone the ugliness down, because it is out of hand.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Mar 10, 2014, 08:58 PM, and the Jury voted 0-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The alerter needs to not bring the jury into a "difference of opinion" dust up. The post as is.. is okay.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This will be 0-6.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The alerter is advised to get a life.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't see anything uncivil about that comment.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Judging this post only...I see no reason to hide.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[cui bono]

240. I can see why you would say that though I have to say that all the Snowden attacks are refuted

and yet they continue. And there are a lot of idiotic attacks on Snowden and they do look idiotic, and we all know why it is happening. It's a concerted effort to discredit someone who the attackers think has shown Obama in a bad light. If it weren't all about that those people would be talking about the real issue, the NSA's unconstitutional spying.

But the attacks on Snowden are there specifically to deflect from the real policy discussion of the NSA and its unconstitutional spying. Most of the Snowden attackers refuse to discuss the NSA spying. They merely want to swiftboat Snowden, and with no good reason.

Now I have yet to see anyone use SDS. I have yet to see anyone say with a broad brush that anyone who disagrees with Snowden is suffering from SDS. Rather, the specific attacks are being labeled as idiotic, the attackers aren't being labeled as deranged.

Btw... I was not the one who alerted on your post. That was a lame alert imo. There are plenty other of your posts that would merit an alert before that one.

[VanillaRhapsody]

274. Yes because some people will alert on anyone that dares not pledge fealty to Snowden...

It proved my point!

But there is none of THAT on DU is there?

[cui bono]

283. Proved what point? n/t

[mindwalker_i]

72. I made a similar point not too long ago

That some people/person could be replace with a very basic BASIC program.

10 PRINT "Obama good"
20 GOTO 10

A hello world program is a terrible thing to waste.

[Logical]

91. DOS basic, I love it! nt

[mindwalker_i]

106. Actually Commodore 64 basic

Or VIC-20 basic. The above program (and, by extension, the people who defend Obama over this and all other issues) don't even need a memory expansion to run it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_64

[Logical]

139. I loved my C64. I learned 6502 assembler on it. Miss those days actually. More geeky! n-t

[mindwalker_i]

175. Wow, same here!

I learned 6502 assembly and wrote my own assembler while in high school. It allowed instructions to be next to each other horizontally instead of just vertically, so I created an 80-column editor in bitmap mode.

It's really too bad that those things aren't around any more for people to learn from. I think the system was small enough that one could learn assembly and by extension, get some base ideas of how hardware works. That proved highly instructional when I learned how digital circuits worked.

[Logical]

183. I remember COMPUTE magazine had a lot of....

neat programs in it.

The Rapsberry Pi is what they are trying to get kids involved in now. Still not as cool. But a $35 little computer. Not bad. And kids learning Python is not a bad thing.

Neat idea on your assembler!

[Logical]

90. LOL, you nailed it! Almost a parody at this point! nt

[woo me with science]

14. Exhibit A

[ProSense]

17. LOL!

Yeah, I remember when people used to make the same bullshit claims about "attack" on Nader...that is until he showed his true colors: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024629502

Two birds: Fuck 'em

[Enthusiast]

237. "Fuck 'em" is not a very nice thing to say.

[VanillaRhapsody]

115. He really has an inflated sense of self doesn't he? Not a humble bone at all it seems...

[riderinthestorm]

117. Ah the narcissist screed... Exhibit G or H I believe (losing count now) nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

119. Well you diagnosed it not I....

as even Bill Maher so aptly pointed out...."every time Edward Snowden opens his mouth....crazy shit flies out".

[grahamhgreen]

207. Really? Why don't you post your home phone numbers and contact lists?

[randome]

9. Then why does he keep telling us how heroic he is?

He has said before, "My mission is done."
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

[ProSense]

11. Because his 'idiotic" and "pathetic" fans think he's the savior. n/t

[BlueJac]

42. Read the Constitution.........

And defend what you were supposed to!

[ProSense]

43. The Constitution say I shoud "defend" Snowden?

I must have misread it. I thought it stated clearly that I'm free to laugh at Snowden. I could be wrong...

[BlueJac]

180. Probable cause for snooping...

Laugh your ass off on that one, maybe your need a reading and comprehension course

[BlueJac]

181. NonSense.....

your new tag. LMAO

[Logical]

82. The madder you get about this the more I think you know you....

Are on the wrong side of it!

[riderinthestorm]

16. Exhibit B nt

[randome]

24. You wound me.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]All things in moderation, including moderation.[/center][/font][hr]

[cui bono]

98. What does it matter?

[randome]

126. If Snowden wants to keep talking about himself, we can talk about him, too.

Start another thread on phone metadata copies, if you want.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You have to play the game to find out why you're playing the game. -Existenz[/center][/font][hr]

[cui bono]

133. Why would him talking about himself make people want to make "idiotic attacks" on him?

And why am I supposed to start another thread? I'm confused.

[randome]

138. It's fun! It's DU! We can talk about anything!

So don't start another thread. Don't join in threads you have no interest in.

We don't have to talk about only what the OP wants us to talk about. Who is the OP to say "It's not about Snowden." I say it is -sometimes- about Snowden.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

[LanternWaste]

20. majority of the stories about Snowden seem to be posted by those who fixate on the person...

It wasn't until today that I began to realize that the majority of the stories about Snowden seem to be posted by those who fixate (negatively) on the individual. The majority of stories about actual policy are posted by, well... everyone else.

[VanillaRhapsody]

122. Irony thou art cruel!

[OilemFirchen]

161. Like the one in which you're posting?

The one about idiotic attacks on Snowden, that sez "It's not about Snowden"?

That one?

[treestar]

21. He keeps bringing himself to the forefront

He is the one making it about him.

He can't escape comment. We can discuss both his revelations and him.

[riderinthestorm]

26. Exhibit C

He made me do it has to be the most pathetic of all...

[ProSense]

33. Nonsense.

Exhibit A


LOL!

[Rex]

141. YEP.

nt.

[randome]

32. We can discuss phone metadata and Snowden in different threads.

Most of us can walk and chew gum at the same time, too!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

[mike_c]

34. indeed it does....

It's also a standard tactic of obfuscation. Never mind the NSA. Lookit Snowden!

[SidDithers]

38. And today's Wheel of Outrage lands on... Snowden haters!!...

Tune in tomorrow, folks, to see what happens next. On:

Wheel!
Of!
Outrage!

Sid

[LanternWaste]

47. It's not only the petulant and sub-literate who confuse concern with outrage...?

It's not only the petulant and sub-literate who confuse concern with outrage...? Huh.

[riderinthestorm]

53. Exhibit D nt

[SidDithers]

60. Horse homeopathy...

Sid

[riderinthestorm]

62. Olympic veterinarian recommendations.

I take my animals' care extremely seriously. If the vets prescribe it and it works, I use it.

But nice try at derailing the thread Sid. Even more pathetic than the others...

Exhibit E.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

45. Cui bono? Who benefits from the attacks on Snowden?

Certainly not the people that the NSA spies on. Or, the people in general. Or, diplomacy.

Who?

[Maedhros]

104. Attacks on Snowden, Manning, Assange et al. serve only to provide cover for the criminals

behind the activities illuminated by their leaks.

[OilemFirchen]

167. Criminals?

Manning: Convicted
Snowden: Charged / Fugitive
Assange: Charges Pending / Fugitive

Are there individuals here providing cover for criminals... other than you? Which criminals?

[cui bono]

242. You really need to learn about whistle blowers. n/t

[cui bono]

241. You rang?

[fascisthunter]

50. Those "Folks" support a Government which Illegally Spies on its Citizens

And they don't care that it is unconstitutional.

[Puzzledtraveller]

261. Unless it's the other party in office

then they'll scream bloody murder.

[ecstatic]

51. With all the attacks on Obama, why should Snowden be off limits?

[stevenleser]

81. I agree. If you put yourself in the public eye, you are subject to criticism. This was his choice

he wanted to be part of the discussion, and now he is. He is now like any activist who has achieved prominence. You can try to tell us not to talk about him but you will not get far with that.

I compare him to James O'Keefe. I'm sure O'Keefe doesn't like the negative attention his antics and lawbreaking have gotten him. Some folks consider him a hero. I am sure there are some folks who don't want me to talk about my opinions of him too. Tough.

Again, this was Snowden's choice.

[KoKo]

188. Ahh...true..but people who Whistle Blow also have a right to THEIR SUPPORTERS!

Would you not agree with that?

[Number23]

225. Somebody put you on ignore for this. And folks here call Obama supporters "swooners"

[ProSense]

52. Prediction:

This OP will go the way of all the other I'm better than everyone else OPs.

oh for the love of reason. No one is running around DU praising Putin
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024591770

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024610884#post1

"idiotic attacks," indeed.

[struggle4progress]

54. A story typically is best understood in its entirety

If somebody gets a job with the aim of gaining access to classified documents, tricks coworkers into providing passwords, steals 1.7 million or so classified documents, flees to China, notifies the Chinese which websites the NSA there is trying to hack, then flees to Russia and ends up under the protection of a lawyer there with high level ties to Russian intelligence, that is an interesting story

If the fellow turns out to be a rightwing libertarian gunnut who had briefly joined the army in hopes of helping with Bush's Excellent Iraq Adventure™ and who later said of leakers "those people should be shot in the balls," that too is an interesting story

And if the so-called "journalist," who first encounters him, discourages him from posting his own account of his motives, on the grounds that it's "a little Ted Kaczynski-ish," that is yet another interesting story and might raise questions, not only about how dedicated the so-called "journalist" might actually be to the craft of bringing stories accurately to the public, but also the question of what motives the fellow might have expressed to us, had the so-called "journalist" not intervened to bring the story into a form more neatly matching the so-called "journalist's" tastes

The fellow's entirely unsupported grandiose claims are also an interesting story: he said, for example, "I, sitting at my desk, certainly had the authorities to wiretap anyone, from you or your accountant, to a federal judge or even the president"

[stevenleser]

86. That is way too much reality and facts for the Snowden fan club.

They demand unabashed heroification.

[struggle4progress]

121. IMO it can be explained by a politically naive, and intellectually lazy, replacement mechanism

Opposition to the Iraq war is replaced by a surrogate: support for Assange. And that surrogate is then replaced by another surrogate: we must accept Assange's claim that the Swedish rape prosecution is politically motivated. And then that surrogate is replaced by yet another surrogate: we must accept that Assange's Swedish accusers are CIA agents and that Assange himself is in danger of being carted from Sweden to Guantanamo, where he will be tortured and extrajudicially executed. The original inclinations have vanished inexplicably behind a chain of replacements

Or opposition to the Iraq war is replaced by a surrogate: support for Manning. And that surrogate is then replaced by another surrogate: we must accept Manning's claim to suffer from some psycho-medical condition such as gender dysphoria. And then that surrogate is replaced by yet another surrogate: we must call Manning "Chelsea" lest we offend the soldier. Of course, the claim, that Manning suffers from gender dysphoria, is a medical question, raised by the defense as partial excuse for the soldier's behavior, and it cannot be resolved by casual internet posters; moreover, when the defense itself first raised the claim, numerous posters here and elsewhere on the internet, assumed it was an attempt by the prosecution to slander Manning and attacked it as such, until they realized it was a defense claim, at which point the same posters embraced it. And, of course, there is no chance that anyone, posting on the internet, can hurt Manning's feelings by posting, since Manning in Leavenworth apparently has no access to the internet. Again, the original inclinations have vanished inexplicably behind a chain of replacements

Or opposition to the FISA court is replaced by a surrogate: support for Snowden. And then that support for Snowden is replaced by another surrogate: the insistence that any effort to discover much about the actual Snowden story is merely an authoritarian cover-up. The real story might actually be quite complicated: Snowden might, for example, be a rightwing "Kaczynski-ish" ideologue, with genuine patriotic feelings and more than a touch of grandiose thinking, who was upset by some combination of what he learned and his inability to get more experienced people to take him very seriously, who then in a fit of irritation, and by stealth and deceit, downloaded well over a million documents and handed the information along to other ideologues and foreign governments. Ultimately, the possibility of any complicated human story, with detail and nuance, vanishes behind layers of noise designed to protect the bizarre chain of replacements

IMO we see the same mechanism at work in the recent Clapper threads

[stevenleser]

140. Well put. I think Orwell would call these kinds of belief systems Positive and Negative Nationalism

In fact, I am sure of it.

http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/nationalism.html

[OilemFirchen]

178. Nicely done.

I'd add that in each case the ultimate resolution is that any discussion of the players is mere deflection from their trump. This, despite the fact that the players are real, with actual histories, backed up by documentation and utterances, whereas their revelations are usually allegations without substance.

In the case of Snowden, specifically, the claim is that the real subject is the illegal or unconstitutional activities which have, thus far, never been adjudicated and thus are presumed exactly the opposite. Snowden committed a real crime, but that's a distraction from the imagined crimes of his target(s).

[riderinthestorm]

125. That MIGHT be true if there was some balance by the Snowden haters

But there's not.

And its so obvious now its pathetic.

But points for trying to save the crew!

[struggle4progress]

199. The goal, of requiring our thinking be based upon actual facts, is to understand the world

as it is, rather than the world as we might wish it were, in order that we might have a real chance of nudging the world somewhat in the direction we should like to see it move

Actual facts are composed of all manner of tedious details, not all of which may support anyone's favorite narrative or prejudices

If you prefer to cast the discussion into the mould of "Snowden supporters" and "Snowden haters," then I can only conclude that you are not much interested in the actual details and the actual facts that those details suggest

[riderinthestorm]

202. You all are the ones who perpetually derail any convo about NSA spying with Snowden attacks

The rest of us try to have conversations about the NSA.

So if the shoe fits and all that....

[struggle4progress]

204. A story typically is best understood in its entirety

If somebody gets a job with the aim of gaining access to classified documents, tricks coworkers into providing passwords, steals 1.7 million or so classified documents, flees to China, notifies the Chinese which websites the NSA there is trying to hack, then flees to Russia and ends up under the protection of a lawyer there with high level ties to Russian intelligence, that is an interesting story

If the fellow turns out to be a rightwing libertarian gunnut who had briefly joined the army in hopes of helping with Bush's Excellent Iraq Adventure™ and who later said of leakers "those people should be shot in the balls," that too is an interesting story

And if the so-called "journalist," who first encounters him, discourages him from posting his own account of his motives, on the grounds that it's "a little Ted Kaczynski-ish," that is yet another interesting story and might raise questions, not only about how dedicated the so-called "journalist" might actually be to the craft of bringing stories accurately to the public, but also the question of what motives the fellow might have expressed to us, had the so-called "journalist" not intervened to bring the story into a form more neatly matching the so-called "journalist's" tastes

The fellow's entirely unsupported grandiose claims are also an interesting story: he said, for example, "I, sitting at my desk, certainly had the authorities to wiretap anyone, from you or your accountant, to a federal judge or even the president"

[markpkessinger]

134. "tricks coworkers into providing passwords" - puhleez

If employees of the premier intelligence agency of the United States government can be that easily 'tricked' into ignoring security protocols, then the agency has far bigger problems than anything resulting from Snowden's actions!

[struggle4progress]

182. The coworkers were employees of a contractor, and, yes, it is a problem

that should concern us

[riderinthestorm]

203. Speaking of facts... you all seem to conveniently ignore this over and over and over

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/12/16/an-nsa-coworker-remembers-the-real-edward-snowden-a-genius-among-geniuses/

The anonymous NSA staffer’s priority in contacting me, in fact, was to refute stories that have surfaced as the NSA and the media attempt to explain how a contractor was able to obtain and leak the tens of thousands of highly classified documents that have become the biggest public disclosure of NSA secrets in history. According to the source, Snowden didn’t dupe coworkers into handing over their passwords, as one report has claimed. Nor did Snowden fabricate SSH keys to gain unauthorized access, he or she says.

Instead, there’s little mystery as to how Snowden gained his access: It was given to him.

“That kid was a genius among geniuses,” says the NSA staffer. “NSA is full of smart people, but anybody who sat in a meeting with Ed will tell you he was in a class of his own…I’ve never seen anything like it.”

[struggle4progress]

205. That's an interesting story. But, in fact, it undermines itself somewhat by simultaneously claiming

that Snowden was given at least one password:

... As .. evidence that Snowden didn’t hijack .. colleagues’ accounts .., the NSA staffer points to an occasion when Snowden was given a manager’s password so that he could cover for him while he was on vacation. Even then, investigators found no evidence Snowden had misused that staffer’s privileges, and the source says nothing he could have uniquely accessed from the account has shown up in news reports ...

[druidity33]

249. yeah but he didn't "trick" anyone to get it. nt.

[WillyT]

55. Psst... cali... This Is What It's About For Many People Here... From Reuters:

The leaks deeply embarrassed the Obama administration, which in January banned U.S. eavesdropping on the leaders of friendly countries and allies and began reining in the sweeping collection of Americans' phone data in a series of limited reforms triggered by Snowden's revelations.

Link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/10/edward-snowden-sxsw_n_4936146.html

[Skittles]

58. put the Tiger Beat crowd on IGNORE, at least until 2017

that is when their hypocrisy will wear off

[ProSense]

61. LOL!

You said "Tiger Beat crowd"

Oh snap!!!

[Skittles]

63. and by the way

I have most of the Tiger Beat crowd on Ignore

[treestar]

69. Problem with Snow fans is the same can be said about them.

In fact the OP is entirely about bitterness that anyone doesn't worship St. Eddie.

[Skittles]

73. nope that is not what it is at all

I think it's perfectly reasonable to think St. Eddie has his issues without trashing the entirety of what he has revealed

[geek tragedy]

65. one can believe that Snowden is a narcisstic horse's ass while

still accepting that his disclosures highlight a need for substantive reform.

[Skittles]

71. correct

but that is not how most of the criticism comes across - not at all

[fascisthunter]

78. exactly

[Logical]

85. +1000 Many clueless posters miss that whole point! nt

[Marr]

75. It's about misdirection and derailing discussion. That's why they do it.

Glance through this thread and you can see it at work. The 'attack Snowden' angle is one that's proved very effective at steering conversation away from NSA abuses and into murky character studies, and so they keep doing it.

There are only perhaps 10 of them, but they can derail conversations that hundreds might prefer to have by running this sort of interference.

[Zorra]

95. And this same group attacks Julian Assange and Chelsea Manning repeatedly, the very same way.

http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2014/02/mind-blowing.html

[woo me with science]

105. And this same group defends every corporate outrage coming out of this administration.

They are a very familiar, one might even say "full-time," presence here.

[SwankyXomb]

185. You mean there could be

Professional Posters of Nonsense on this board? Inconceivable!

Attacking the messenger and not the message is a sure sign you're on the wrong side.

[Skittles]

232. I'm not convinced they are professional

honestly, they sound too idiotic to be considered even remotely credible outside the Groupie Room

[QC]

267. It's hard to believe that anyone would pay for such shoddy work.

I'm with you--I think they're giving it away for free.

[JackRiddler]

285. Professional doesn't have to be smart.

Let's not confuse effective with smart either.

Endless repetition of the same bullshit over and over serves to make discussion almost impossible: mission accomplished. Also, the classic Internet bully move is to accuse others of same (bullying, authoritarianism, etc.). Works wonders.

I mean think about it: Foxnews and the Koch/Heartland propaganda. The entire Republican party, in fact. These are professionals too.

Professionals in this field keep it simple, stupid, and highly repetitive.

[Skittles]

286. "I'm so happy every day I wake up and Obama is my president!!!"

I'm pretty sure those are the real ones

[bvar22]

278. I think there are less than 10.

..maybe less than 5.

The rest are unpaid wannabe followers with unresolved "issues".
You know, like Cop Groupies who hang out at the Tastee Donuts hoping that someday,
they can be real cops too.

These threads can be cleaned up and made readable by putting less than 5 of the most vocal Snowden Haters on ignore. Maybe 3 would be enough.


My mother always told me that I should avert my eyes when someone is making an embarrassing spectacle of themselves in public.
But I can't help myself.
I have to look,
so I don't put them & their embarrassing performances on "ignore".
Mom would really be mad at me if she could see how much I laugh at them.

[tea and oranges]

103. Personalities Be Damned

That's the biggest distraction since high school.

I don't want to drink beer w/, hang w/, be BFF's w/ Snowden or Greenwald. But I do want to hear what they have to say.

I've been following Greenwald for a long time & never noticed he had an agenda other than speaking truth.

I don't care if Snowden fucks bats; he brought to light a shitload of official documents that detail just how our gov't has lost its way.

Snowden provided information I'd imagine any civic-minded individual would want to know.

I'm w/ you, Cali. Pettiness be damned, full information ahead.

[marions ghost]

264. Welcome to DU

[tea and oranges]

275. Thanks

Been here since before 2000 election, joined in 2005, started posting after retirement.

[BAPhill]

116. Snowden knowingly commited a crime!

He signed a doccument, saying he would safeguard classified information. He did that knowing that he intended to violate his promise. He belongs in jail.

[markpkessinger]

130. I assume you think Ellsberg belongs in jail as well . . .

. . . and if you don't, why not?

[stevenleser]

142. And I assume you treat all issues with a lack of nuance as well?

Anytime someone kills someone else, its the exact same thing, right? A self defense killing, is the same as an accidental killing, is the same as premeditated murder for you, right?

[BAPhill]

147. Did Ellsberg..

Take his job with the premeditation to divulge secrets?

Did Ellsberg flee to a foreign country?

Not the same thing my friend.

[markpkessinger]

159. Ellsberg disagrees n/t

[randome]

162. Bernstein disagrees with Ellsberg.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]If you don't give yourself the same benefit of a doubt you'd give anyone else, you're being unfair.[/center][/font][hr]

[Maedhros]

171. Snowden, the individual, appears to have committed a crime and belongs in jail.

The NSA, being a large governmental agency, appears to have committed crimes BUT WE MUST NOT TALK ABOUT THAT!

I sense some kind of agenda here.

[KoKo]

189. Does seem to be some obvious disconnect there.....but, then...

no matter how much info one gives ...seems some just can't wrap brains around the info...and have quick and ready answers without time many take to do "reflective thinking."

[marions ghost]

268. Ditto

---

[cui bono]

239. Yeah, and Obama violated his oath to defend the constitution by allowing this and asking for

the legislation to make the BushCo illegal spying legal.

What do you think about that?

[ReRe]

120. Here you go, cali....

Let the innocents cast the first stone. Before I would call Snowden a traitor, I would want some books to be cleared up. Like holding the GWB junta held accountable for war crimes. We all know the NSA & CIA have been at their game for decades. Why didn't they prevent 9/11 from happening? When will Wall street be held accountable for what it did to this country? That money went somewhere. Where did it go? It didn't come to me, I can tell you that. If Snowden's a traitor, what about the dept heads in the NSA and CIA? What about the wild turkey who came up with the idea that they could ignore a whitleblower? Whistle blowers aren't traitors. They're patriots. And if people can't understand that simple concept, there's no hope in convincing them otherwise.

I haven't had a chance to listen to Snowden's interaction with the conference in TX today. But I'm looking forward to it. From what I've heard thru the grapevine, he was supposedly going to give some tips on how to secure our privacy online. I'm going to listen to what he has to say.

GOTV 2014

[DesMoinesDem]

135. What set off the Idiots Attack! alarm today?

Was it just Snowden speaking at SXSW that caused them to go full derp?

[Rex]

136. Ah but you know the narrative is to distract and disrupt.

So we talk about ANYTHING but the NSA! And of course there are authoritarians here that LOVE them some NSA!

[bemildred]

152. Pretty much, noise is the objective. nt

[albino65]

143. Then why do you keep harping on Snowden?

harp: talk or write persistently and tediously on a particular topic.
"guys who are constantly harping on about Snowden"*

*a paraphrase of Google search of the definition of harp

[Sheepshank]

144. When people tout Snowden as a hero worthy of this and that award

there is absolutely a componenet that is ALL ABOUT SNOWDEN.

NSA is a separate issue and needs to be addresses, but Snowden is no hero, he doesn't walk on water and has messed up royally.

[randome]

146. Even the attendees at SXSW mocked him!

Some of the questions they asked were hilarious!

Do you think Jennifer Lawrence is naturally v. clumsy or is it all a carefully calculated PR stunt???

If you had the choice of fighting 100 duck-sized horses, or 1 horse-sized duck, which would you choose?

Poor Ed gets no respect!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

[DesMoinesDem]

154. This just in. This just in. You don't have to be at SXSW to tweet a question.

Do you even know what twitter is? It's not a box at SXSW that you drop questions into. LOL.

[randome]

157. I stand corrected!

Still, the mockery was about 50 percent of the postings. Room enough to understand that the world does not follow DU.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Sometimes it seems like the only purpose in life is to keep your car from touching another's.[/center][/font][hr]

[DesMoinesDem]

160. You mean NSA apologists exist outside of DU?? I never would have guessed that.

[War Horse]

148. Is it possible to simultaneously think that Snowden is a borderline narcissist

who has brought an important discussion to the forefront, all the while potentially doing a lot of damage?

And that Greenwald is a dangerous Libertarian is sheep's clothing, trying to murky the waters, and like Assange is only in it for himself? And that the NSA should seriously be reined in and has seriously overstepped its boundaries?

And that while we are right to worry about the NSA, companies like Google and Facebook pose a much greater threat to our privacy?

[randome]

151. I, personally, couldn't care less about who has my phone metadata records.

But you're spot on with your analysis!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

[eridani]

196. So you don't care if the records say you called a suicide hotline number

Because there is no record of the actual conversation, no one could possibly guess what you talked about, right?

[OilemFirchen]

201. I wouldn't give a shit.

Even if, somehow, such a call could be used against me , the "records" to which you refer are not indicative of anything. They don't indicate who made the call. They don't indicate to whom the call was made. And they don't indicate the nature of the call.

What is it about the concept of METAdata that's so elusive?

[eridani]

248. They allow employers and others to make guesses, correct or not n/t

[randome]

259. I have always sailed through confrontations and misconceptions by staying calm and being forthright.

For the handful of incidents in my life where authorities or legal complications ensued.

So no, it would mean nothing to me other than a possible temporary inconvenience.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

[eridani]

293. Nice to have that level of privilege. Not everybody does. n/t

[randome]

300. It isn't privilege. It's looking at things rationally and staying calm, no matter what.

Granted, I may be 'guilty' of being lucky from time to time. But I'll always put 'calm and rational' forward as my first step toward anything.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[eridani]

310. Anyone who can be that smug about blowing off the possiblility that a potential employer--

--might learn that one had called a suicide hotline has a great deal of privilege.

[randome]

311. I still wouldn't call it 'privilege' but, yes, I don't have the same experience as everyone else.

So I can't definitively speak for anyone else. Still, there is no reason to believe that a potential employer would know anything about someone from NSA metadata copies. The same records the telecom companies keep for their own purposes.

The records that Carl Bernstein said appeared to be well safe-guarded against abuse.

We'd all feel better if the records weren't stored by anyone, telecoms included, but I think those 'in the know' feel it's handy to have around in the case of another terrorist attack, either foreign or domestic. And it makes sense that law enforcement would want to know who else a bomber or whatever had been communicating with.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Maedhros]

173. You lost me at "Greenwald is a Libertarian".

You clearly are not familiar with his work, and are willing to be a mouthpiece for character assassins.

Off to the ignore list!

[marions ghost]

269. Ditto

---

[bemildred]

150. Ignore is your friend, and this is a very appropriate case.

When all of their threads sink like a stone, the result should be even more banal than it is now.

Of course, you can't refute them that way.

[KoKo]

158. well...

you can beat your brains out giving information to people who don't want information......sigh...

I often wonder these days...why anyone bothers who isn't making BIG BUCKS ...Hand Over Fist..to compensate their time trying to point out WHAT is "Off the Rails" these days in our society.

[bemildred]

247. It wastes your time, and that is one of the objectives of any troll.

Talk to people who have something to say, or who will listen, or who you have commonalities with.

It's can be fun to argue, but you aren't going to convince people who don't want to be convinced.

[bobduca]

228. best advice yet

Snowden threads are authoritarian-stooge cat-nip:

Is someone screaming wildly about Rand Paul, or acting like the OP insulted their boyfriend?

no ? then your ignore list is working.

[bemildred]

246. Thanks. nt

[pnwmom]

156. One more time. Snowden has done some good things and some bad things.

Almost all of us appreciate the fact that he brought the information about US internal surveillance to light.

But we don't appreciate his continuing to leak documents about our foreign spying -- for example, documents related to spying on China, Russia, and Iran; or leaks about any other international spying, leaks which interfere with our diplomacy around the world.

[PatrynXX]

163. some secrets are supposed to be kept

how is his buddy Putin doing in Crimea? Putin does anything stupid I hold Snowden in the same pen..

[Maedhros]

174. Huh?

That makes no sense.

[BainsBane]

165. It is about the NSA

And it would be great to see some OPs about the NSA rather than Snowden and Greenwald.

[DCBob]

168. With someone like Snowden how do you separate fact from fiction?

Not all of his claims have hard evidence.

[DCBob]

250. The documents are real but his commentary is suspect.

It would be better if he simply released all the documents and let others do the analysis and commentary.

[DCBob]

296. The admin doesnt respond to every comment Mr Snowden makes..

no matter how wacky or accurate it might be.

[DCBob]

298. Are you drunk? They seldom make comments regarding this issue.

For good reasons.

[DCBob]

307. Seems to me anyone who finds that comment "hilariously funny" must be TUI.

typing under the influence.

[DCBob]

312. coward!

[warrprayer]

169. but he has boxes in his garage!!!

[jsr]

192. I would never accept a Christmas present delivered by a mailman who has a messy garage

[idendoit]

170. It's the pathological uninformedness of his supporters at DU.

The OP doesn't provide ANY evidence of their assertion. When provided with evidence to the contrary, all they can do is attack the source or the messenger. The response that is the most absurd is 'Your concern is noted." These Snowden supporters can't even come up with a good argument for his malfeasance. I even started a thread about Greenwald's manipulations and it was censored by the kangaroo court that passes for a 'jury'. Snowden is a slacker's wet dream: Steal stuff, run and claim it's in the pursuit of the truth.

[warrprayer]

176. ...

[DisgustipatedinCA]

186. In that case, it's your lucky day. You have the floor.

So tell me, if a Snowden running to ground in Russia was not something he did in pursuit of the truth, then please do explain his actions. I'm all ears, and I can't wait to hear why he threw his life and his good job out the window.

[idendoit]

301. He can't get rid of that taste of Vlad.

"Russia... [has] my gratitude and respect for being the first to stand against human rights violations carried out by the powerful rather than the powerless. By refusing to compromise their principles in the face of intimidation, they have earned the respect of the world."

[bemildred]

187. "Create a controversy". nt

[L0oniX]

195. I'm sure if Snowden had used the Whistleblower Protection Act he'd be just fine and dandy.

[idendoit]

302. That's because he's not a whistleblower.

Whistleblowers have the courage to face the consequences of their actions, with the conviction of knowing that what they do is not only righteous, it is legal. Common criminals steal what is not theirs, run and hide.

[L0oniX]

314. I never gave my permission for the NSA to take my info. Enjoy your hate.

[randome]

315. You do recall that the metadata records are not yours, right?

Don't like that? Change the law.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]All things in moderation, including moderation.[/center][/font][hr]

[idendoit]

316. Surprise! You live in a republic.

The president, congress and the courts all gave their permission for the NSA to legally gather info. Wallow in your ignorance.

[Bobbie Jo]

200. Blasphemy!

[Douglas Carpenter]

209. AND WORSE THAN THAT!!! He publicly attacked the policies of a Democratic administration! That will

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER be acceptable - EVER!!

His apologist have even gone so far as to suggest that if something was wrong under a Republican administration then it is also wrong under a Democratic administration. How does ANYONE reason with crackpots and loonies who think like that? KOOKS IS WHAT THEY ARE!! - KOOKS!!!!

[cui bono]

244. Hi. My name is cui bono.

And I'm a KOOK.

[cui bono]

243. The OP wasn't about providing evidence. It has been provided 1000 times already.

Just look up woo me with science's posts in this thread. And Koko's as well. You'll get all the evidence you need.

There's no "uninformedness" of his supporters. There's just the deaf ears of his attackers.

How on earth can you say "These Snowden supporters can't even come up with a good argument for his malfeasance." Have you not read any posts about this on DU or anywhere else on the internet? JFC, go read what Daniel Ellsberg has said. He agrees with Snowden leaving the country.

You seem like you are just willfully remaining ignorant and then claiming there is no valid information out there, when in fact there is plenty and you are simply ignoring it.

Don't bother to respond unless you have read the links provided by woo elsewhere in this thread. Posts from someone who believes there are no arguments when there are thousands of them right here on DU are meaningless as they are uninformed.

[idendoit]

303. I replied at least twice to woo me with science, never heard back.

Snowden, that traitor, contends that the government gathering of metadata is somehow more dangerous than corporate access to huge volumes of your personal data. Tell that to 110 million Target customers. Snowden has no respect for the rule of law. In order to claim status as a whistleblower one must first uncover an illegal activity, he has yet to do that. The NSA is doing the same thing they've been doing for 60 years. As a matter of fact the NSA proudly displays Harry Truman's executive order on which they were founded. So why doesn't he return and prove his innocence? Hell, that traitor doesn't even have legitimate grounds to seek asylum anywhere, why hasn't he? Is it because he knows what he has done is illegal? Being asked to leave by a thug nation like China proves that point. What's the color of the sky in your world?

[cui bono]

304. Maybe because you start off with "Snowden, that traitor".

That made me not read the rest of your post.

[idendoit]

305. Have you got a good reason why other countries consider him one?

Could it be that they consider him a spy? Outed spies are tolerated in very few places around the world. Especially a most inept one. Yet Snowden believed he would be welcome by the world with open arms. Only he gave his leverage away to an even more inept blogger. I wonder how many places he has actually applied for asylum, and been quietly denied?

[marions ghost]

271. Unrec

[AllyCat]

191. But, but, but...he's a libertarian!!!1!! Rand Paul likes him!!! He broke the law...to expose people

breaking the law. And I thank him for it. Now, lets turn our focus to the NSA because the GOP can hammer us with this.

[wildbilln864]

197. Zachary

Right!

[iamthebandfanman]

206. Pretty sure both sides

make it about him...

hes either a great hero or a massive traitor depending on who ya ask on DU...

I personally think hes a mixture of both :p

[DeSwiss]

208. K&R

''Not telling the truth to someone…in my opinion...is a crime. But what is a bigger crime is knowing that we are being lied to and turning our head the other way. We become the bigger liars.''

~Christina Rasmussen

[center][/center]

[struggle4progress]

245. There Are 12 Million Stateless People Around The World, But Edward Snowden Isn’t One Of Them

There Are 12 Million Stateless People Around The World, But Edward Snowden Isn’t One Of Them
By Hayes Brown on July 2, 2013 at 12:15 pm

... passport revocation does not qualify Snowden as stateless as claimed in his statement, as he still remains an American citizen and retains all the rights under U.S. law that status grants him. That makes him quite different from the the peoples around the world who are truly denied similar rights in the states they inhabit, even if their family has been present for generations. According to the United Nations, there are currently an estimated 12 million people around the world who actually qualify as stateless.

“Being stateless means having no legal protection or rights to participate in political processes, inadequate access to social services, poor employment prospects, little opportunity to own property or travel, and few protections against trafficking, harassment, and violence,” Refugees International says. The organization has documented the cases of thousands of people living within a state but legally not viewed as even existing. This status goes beyond even the treatment of many ethnic Kurds who, while not having a state to call their own, are at least recognized as citizens in many of the states they reside in.

Across the Middle East, a class of people known as “bidoon” — also spelled “bedoon,” “bidun,” and several other Romanizations — exist. Literally meaning “without” in Arabic, these ethnic Arabs exist in a state of limbo, particularly in Kuwait where over 100,000 of them reside. After Kuwait’s independence in 1961, the descendants of people who entered the country before 1920 and lack proper documentation were declared to basically no longer exist. According to Refugees International, the bidoon are “refused birth certificates, public schooling, marriage certificates, and the right to peacefully assemble” within Kuwait, and many lack access to basic health care. When in 2011 the bidoon protested for equal protection under the law, the Kuwaiti government responded with force, firing rubber bullets and tear-gas at the demonstrators.

Members of the Rohingya ethnic group face similar discrimination in Myanmar, where the government stripped them of their citizenship under a 1982 law. Many within Myanmar — including human rights champion Aung San Suu Kyi — refuse to believe even in the concept of a Rohingya people. Instead, they believe that the Rohingya are all illegal immigrants from Bangladesh who are frequently referred to as “Bengalis.” The subject of targeted violence that Human Rights Watch has called “ethnic cleansing,” over 100,000 Rohingya and other Muslims are currently condemned to live in make-shift refugee camps after their homes were destroyed ...

[Aerows]

219. It is about two things

1. Deflecting for the NSA/CIA/Private contractors that cash in on DoD contracts and *must* keep the secrecy going and the budget dollars flowing.

2. It reflects poorly on the Obama Administration if there is anything whatsoever that could possibly stain his sainted personhood. He is, after all, a Democrat, inviolate, and besides that, he's ... Well, Tiger Beat material for many. Which says a lot about those who follow him in that manner, since they objectify him and don't really pay attention to what he does.

[Cha]

230. "the idiotic attacks on Snowden show exactly how petty and pathetic those folks are".. that shows

Last edited Tue Mar 11, 2014, 03:41 AM - Edit history (1)

how "petty and pathetic" the Snowden fans are. I'll add ignorant, too.

[bvar22]

279. False Equivalence. The two are not the same.

One side is motivated by protecting our Democracy, our privacy, and The Constitution.

What motivates the others is far less idealistic and patriotic,
As is clear from the lack of quality in their posts,
the inconsistencies and internal contradictions in their argument,
and their heavy dependence on Logical Fallacies and Talking Points.

Your claim is as laughable as the Fox News claim of Fair & Balanced.

[Capt. Obvious]

251. I'm putting the O/U for

the amount of in this thread at 15.5.

If I log out, I put the number at 27.5

[Kolesar]

252. It is Cali's "attention getter"

My dog used to chew up socks and gloves to get attention. Same thing

[reddread]

253. it's about democracy

not everyones cup, it seems.

[Smarmie Doofus]

255. Hell no.

>>not everyones cup, it seems.>>>

[Denzil_DC]

260. WE WANT A DISCUSSION!!!

"I disagree with you about such-and-such ..."

"You're an idiot, petty, pathetic, a government shill (etc. etc. etc.) ..."


"IT'S NOT ABOUT SNOWDEN AND/OR GREENWALD"

(Post about Snowden and/or Greenwald ...)


Rinse and repeat.

[Puzzledtraveller]

262. It's not about Snowden to them either

it's about vehement denial and refusal to acknowledge any perceived, or factual wrong doing that in any way may reflect poorly on the current president to the extent that they idolize and adore this potus beyond reason.

[NCTraveler]

263. You are right, it shouldn't be about Snowden. Attacks or adoration.

unfortunately, it is all about Rock Star Snowden or piece of shit Snowden to some.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024641431

[blm]

265. Two way street. Perhaps supporters should separate NSA revelations from Snowden and understand

that his timing and his entire resume of work at Bush-loyal firms, has given plenty of ammunition for those who have no trust in him or his motives, and who have been highly critical of the NSA's conduct since 2001.

[woo me with science]

273. The idiocy is not to convince anyone of anything.

It is the equivalent of pepper spray at Occupy rallies.

[blkmusclmachine]

277. ,

,

[dotymed]

281. It is sickening.

I just read a post that claimed Snowden has obviously been on the Russian payroll for a long time... Idiocracy and even IF it were true?
It would not matter.
Snowden proved to everyone that the NSA spies on us all.

[randome]

282. No, he 'proved' that the NSA collects phone metadata with a warrant.

Hyperbole is not your friend.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

[dotymed]

291. Tep. Duh Yep. UhHuh.

Damn maybe you can turn me in for that one ...........yuck.

[George II]

289. And those who characterize others who disagree with them as....

...."idiotic", "petty", and "pathetic" are?

[bobduca]

295. Accurate

[woo me with science]

299. kick

[bigwillq]

308. Folks have every right to attack Snowden

Just as they have every right to support him.