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snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
Thu Mar 13, 2014, 02:27 PM Mar 2014

If a large plane went silent in US or European airspace would the air force scramble jets?

I ask because of a post I read in a comments section at CBC.


"Something is very wrong with this picture. After 9/11, if a large plane went silent in American airspace (or, I suspect, European), military jets would immediately be scrambled. Malaysia has a few prime targets for terrorism, and so do the Philippines. The Malaysian air force has some extremely competent jet interceptors. I would expect the military to be very concerned about a missing 777. Did the Malaysian air force scramble fighters, and if not, why not? There is a lot more to this than is being revealed. The air force is being very low-key in the search and rescue, as well. They have over 20 Sea King helicopters for such roles"

12 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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If a large plane went silent in US or European airspace would the air force scramble jets? (Original Post) snagglepuss Mar 2014 OP
Yes. AngryAmish Mar 2014 #1
It seems strange then that the press hasn't covered this angle. snagglepuss Mar 2014 #3
Boeing and United really played it down. AngryAmish Mar 2014 #10
If they shot it down by mistake elfin Mar 2014 #2
Depends where it landed... but the idea is a stretch... Lost_Count Mar 2014 #9
Not if George W. Bush was president. sinkingfeeling Mar 2014 #4
I think he is greatly overstating the capabilities of the Malaysian Air Force Blue_Tires Mar 2014 #5
This. nt B2G Mar 2014 #6
Not in Switzerland, if it's outside the office hours jakeXT Mar 2014 #7
OK, which air force? Savannahmann Mar 2014 #8
Thanks so much for this informative answer. It really ought to be an OP. snagglepuss Mar 2014 #11
Maybe in the Aloca Forum! FSogol Mar 2014 #12
 

AngryAmish

(25,704 posts)
1. Yes.
Thu Mar 13, 2014, 02:33 PM
Mar 2014

In 2011 a 777 lost all radio and nav due to spilled coffee. About 30 minutes in there were f-16s that intercepted.

 

AngryAmish

(25,704 posts)
10. Boeing and United really played it down.
Thu Mar 13, 2014, 04:49 PM
Mar 2014

Passengers were never told. When it did get out Boeing and United did their best to make the story go away.

But in the 2011 incident they never lost the transponder or the text message thingy.

elfin

(6,262 posts)
2. If they shot it down by mistake
Thu Mar 13, 2014, 02:35 PM
Mar 2014

That is a good reason to cover up or misdirect, BUT it would seem to me that a debris field would have become apparent by now.

 

Lost_Count

(555 posts)
9. Depends where it landed... but the idea is a stretch...
Thu Mar 13, 2014, 03:55 PM
Mar 2014

I always defer to human incompetence where possible...

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
5. I think he is greatly overstating the capabilities of the Malaysian Air Force
Thu Mar 13, 2014, 03:02 PM
Mar 2014

Yeah, they have a couple dozen fighters with maybe half of them in a state of readiness...

And even then it's not like they could have been on alert and ready to scramble in a reasonable amount of time at 1 a.m.

Not everyone has the ready-to-strike-at-a-second's-notice capability of the U.S.

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
7. Not in Switzerland, if it's outside the office hours
Thu Mar 13, 2014, 03:21 PM
Mar 2014


The problem in Malaysia probably was the hand over from one country to the other.
If the transponder fails or is disabled, the plane becomes invisible to civilian air traffic controllers.
Without a transponder, there is also no hijack code 7500
The military can see the plane with primary radar, because they assume the civilian side is handling it they ignore it.




The final words heard from the cockpit of Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 before it disappeared without trace were “all right, goodnight”, it has been revealed.

One of the pilots is reported to have made the comment by radio as the plane passed from Malaysian to Vietnamese air space. It is then said to have disappeared from radar screens.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-all-right-goodnight-were-missing-pilots-last-message-9185844.html



As the plane reached the boundary between Malaysian and Vietnamese airspace, the Malaysian air control announced it was handing over to Ho Chi Minh City Control.

Minutes later, all contact with Flight MH370 was lost.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26541057

 

Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
8. OK, which air force?
Thu Mar 13, 2014, 03:53 PM
Mar 2014

The plane was over the sea when it went silent. By the time you scrambled the jets, and got them headed that way, figure an hour. An hour at flight speeds would be another five hundred miles or so. Air to Air radar of the kind normally installed on interceptors reach far less than half that range. Then there are other nations airspace to consider. If a Malaysian fighter approaches the nation of Viet-Nam without permission there is a phrase for it. It is called an act of war, or at a minimum, a hostile act.

If fighters from one nation enter another without permission, which is not often granted, the one being violated starts screaming invasion before anything else is done.

Radios tend to be fairly unreliable at a distance. By some walkie talkies from the store, and go to a large concrete building. Then have one person inside and another outside. Reception will be poor, and at any range, non existent.

In two hours, that passenger jet had covered at least seven hundred miles. That is a long way for radios to reach, and if I was the controller, I might well just assume that the plane had exceeded the range. Sunspots, atmospherics, and a host of other reasons affect radios in a lot of ways.

Look at the Air France flight that crashed. Everyone kept assuming that there was radio problems until the time to land came and went and then the time remaining in fuel was exhausted. It is human nature to assume that it is a small problem, because history teaches us that it usually is a small problem. There are very few catastrophic accidents, but a lot of little things that go wrong that do not lead to disaster.

Even if you do scramble fighters, they can do little but fly next to the plane and call on the radio. Helios Airlines flight demonstrated that. The pilots of the fighters thought they saw someone waving in the cockpit.

We scrambled fighters for Payne Stewart's plane. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payne_Stewart#Death All they could do was escort the plane until it ran out of fuel and crashed.

Remember the situation with Bolivia One? http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-bolivia-plane-vienna

That was a regular plane, not a fighter and the airspace issue was a huge diplomatic incident. Imagine if Bolivia One had just kept on flying where it wasn't allowed to go. Now imagine if Bolivia One was a fighter. Wars are started by such misunderstandings.

Now, here is the dirty little secret. Somewhere in an office in the US Government, they know exactly where the plane went down.

When Korea Airline flight 007 was shot down the Government was using sensitive receivers to track even the weakest radar signals. These secret facilities were the great grandsons of the same equipment that we used to track K-129 in 1968 and how we knew where it was when it sunk. Please don't tell me you think that we have lost that ability in the modern era with Satellites that offer real time information on anything anyone wants to see. No, someone in the Government knows, and is unwilling to say lest they reveal sources and methods, two things that are more valuable than the location of a downed airliner. If you doubt me, then remember that General Dempsey just said that it will cost hundreds of billions of dollars to fix the damage that Snowden has done, because he's been revealing the sources and methods used by the unintelligence Organizations.

FSogol

(45,456 posts)
12. Maybe in the Aloca Forum!
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:02 AM
Mar 2014

"Somewhere in an office in the US Government, they know exactly where the plane went down."

at the

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