Police identify teens fatally shot by janitor

[sarisataka]

Two teenagers allegedly shot to death by a maintenance worker at a west side apartment building were identified by Milwaukee police Thursday as Anmarie Miller, 17, and James Bell Jr., 19, both of Milwaukee.

The 39-year-old man accused of shooting the two Wednesday afternoon while he was being beaten with a baseball bat is being held in the Milwaukee County Jail on possible homicide charges.

The shootings were reported about 1 p.m. Wednesday at an apartment building in the 1400 block of N. 27th St.

Police said an argument occurred between the janitor and three people: the teens and a 20-year-old man.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/janitor-jailed-in-shooting-deaths-of-2-teens-during-beating-b99224501z1-250188151.html?ipad=y
How does being attacked by three people, being held and beaten with a bat lead to two 1st degree murder charges?

[sharp_stick]

1. If I read it correctly

they're holding him on possible counts. Basically that means that they're holding him on the most serious charge he may be facing.

He hasn't been charged with anything yet but they don't want to let him go until they've investigated.

[geek tragedy]

2. they put him in jail without charging him with a crime?

How is that even close to constitutional?

never mind the fact that he's legally innocent based on the facts as discussed

[jberryhill]

3. He's being held on two counts

What is the source of the "facts as discussed"?

Guy shoots people. People die. Guy says it was self defense. Guy gets let go. Is that the standard now?

[geek tragedy]

4. According to the police/prosecutors:

The argument in the apartment stairwell led to a physical altercation, during which the maintenance worker was being held while one of the three beat him with the bat, officials said Wednesday.


The janitor then drew a gun and fired, shooting the two teens, police said.

He was hospitalized for injuries related to the bat-beating and has since been released.

Certainly looks like a good shoot to me.

[jberryhill]

5. I know you are more perceptive than that

Who saw him being held and beaten? The police?

In all likelihood, he is being held just to make sure there is nothing inconsistent with his story.

[geek tragedy]

6. how long are they allowed to detain him before the "charge or release" rule triggers? nt

[jberryhill]

7. What was it for Zimmerman? 30 minutes?

How long do you suppose it was between him shooting the first one and shooting the second one?

Do you think he shot the first one and they kept attacking him?

One of the kids is alive. Do you think that kids is saying, "Yeah, we attacked him and he shot two of us."

And if the surviving kid is saying, "We were minding our own business when this guy fell down the stairs and started shooting at us", do you suppose the police should just say, "Yah right."

What do you suppose normally happens when three kids are attacking someone, and he shoots one of them?

Oh, and... they were having an "argument". What do you suppose the argument was about?

[geek tragedy]

8. Well, the baseball bat injuries would not appear on him after he killed the kids, would they?

if the surviving kid is saying, "We were minding our own business when this guy fell down the stairs and started shooting at us", do you suppose the police should just say, "Yah right."

I certainly wouldn't charge or detain the guy based on a story that weak.

3 versus 1, evidence of a violent attack against the one.

I would suspect he pumped as much lead into them as possible in a short period of time, as someone getting beat with a baseball bat would be likely to do.

[jberryhill]

10. That was an exaggerated example

There's another adult witness to this thing. What is he saying? Do you know? No.

What was the argument about and who started the fight? Do you know? No.

"I would suspect he pumped as much lead into them as possible in a short period of time" - and you know this happened for a fact? No.

Going on the basis of "I would suspect" is why Zimmerman was released.

[CVN-68]

14. There's a surveillance video of the assault also.

[geek tragedy]

16. the police said the beating came first, then the shooting.

According to (Milwaukee Police Chief Edward) Flynn, the two teens, along with a 21-year-old man, got into an argument with the 39-year-old maintenance man in a stairwell in a common area of the building.

The argument led to a physical altercation during which the maintenance man was being held while one of the three beat him with a baseball bat. The maintenance man then pulled a gun and shot the two teens.

that's the Milwaukee police chief's version of events.

Wisconsin is a SYG state that requires self-defense to be disproven beyond a reasonable doubt.

[jberryhill]

20. Anything prefaced with "the police said" is not a "fact"

What was the argument about?

[geek tragedy]

24. subject of the argument is irrelevant.

you can damn well bet that a statement by the police chief favoring the defendant will be a 'fact' introduced at any trial should there be one.

[jberryhill]

30. Can you quote that statement by the police chief?

The subject of the argument is relevant.

Look, it's a newspaper story, which is pretty much shit for figuring out what happened. If newspapers are going to be the basis of whether a shooting should be at all investigated, then we are fucked as a country.

The subject of the argument is relevant. It would certainly be relevant if the argument started with him threatening one of them with a gun, and them defending themselves with a bat before he got his gun back.

Did that happen? Probably not. But, unlike you, I wasn't there taking notes.

[geek tragedy]

33. according to the police chief, he didn't whip out his gun until after the beating started.

I know you're being a gadfly on this, but come on

[geek tragedy]

40. here's more:

http://www.jrn.com/tmj4/news/Maintenance-man-involved-in-double-fatal-shooting-now-in-jail-250137901.html

Maintenance worker involved in double fatal shooting now in jail
Michele Fiore and Todd Hicks
CREATED Mar. 13, 2014 - UPDATED: Mar. 13, 2014
MILWAUKEE - As Milwaukee police sort out exactly what happened, we're learning more about the two teens who lost their lives. The 19 year old man and 17 year old woman were parents, and now their baby will grow up without a mom and dad.

An anti-violence rally was expected to begin Thursday evening, one day after the two teens were killed inside an apartment building near 27th and Vliet.

One day later, it's a quiet scene outside the apartment building. No flowers, no teddy bears, no reminders of the lives lost. Just this guy - community activist Bob Braun showed up. He says he talked to the building manager who provides some insight about why the teens went there on Wednesday afternoon.
“There is a lady upstairs, apartment owner, not, renter, that they were trying to evict and apparently these people were going up to visit. My suspicion is this maintenance man, I've known him for like ten years, he's the most peaceful guy, I"m sure he didn't start anything. He's familiar with the inner city and workings so I am sure he just used it to defend himself," said Braun.

Police say when the couple and another man, 20 year old Clarence Alls, came into contact with the building's maintenance man, an argued erupted. Alls survived the attack. His arrest and detention record claims he was punching the maintenance man closed first and it was caught on camera. We went to Alls' last known address.

A neighbor who didn't want to go on camera tells me the family lived on this block until just a few months ago. She says she would see Clarence Alls, who went by the nick name "A's" outside with his friends smoking.

We also spoke with a man working at this corner furniture store where the mother of the 19 year old man was taken, after she collapsed on the sidewalk. He says his heart went out to her and that he closed the store for the rest of the day Wednesday, as many other family members showed up to give her comfort.

All signs point to him being kept in jail to give the community a chance to cool off, not for any reason related to his possible guilt.

[sarisataka]

44. Hopefully they will release the video

Or at least enough to show how the argument began and escalated

[Aerows]

34. A witness on the scene

described the maintenance man as appearing confused with his face bloody.

I don't know about you, but if I was getting beaten to the point of confusion and my face was bloody, I think I'd be letting as much lead fly as I could, too.

[sharp_stick]

35. 48 hours

in most cases.

[Aerows]

9. He was hospitalized for bat injuries

If you are hospitalized for being beaten with a baseball bat while three people hold you down, I more than think that is adequate reason to pull a concealed weapon and defend your life.

FTA:

"He was hospitalized for injuries related to the bat-beating and has since been released.

The man who was with the teens is being held in jail on a potential substantial battery charge, Milwaukee police said Thursday."

I've seen reports from other outlets that he had a CCW permit, but that article didn't say whether he did or not.

[jberryhill]

12. So?

Zimmerman was treated for injuries too.

So, tell me... who started this fight and what was it about?

It may very well appear to be what it is. But there is another adult witness who, one would think, is telling a different story. I guess there is some "believe the guy who fired the shots" rule that police are supposed to follow, but I've never seen it.

What did the other two do after he shot the first one? Do you know?

[Aerows]

18. They were holding him down

beating him with a baseball bat, and there were three of them. That is entirely different than one-on-one. Three on one, with the three using a baseball bat on the one isn't anywhere near the same realm.

If you need further explanation as to why 3+bat against one is a different situation than the Zimmerman case, I really can't help you.

[jberryhill]

21. What happened after he shot the first one?

I'm still missing that part of the story.

[Aerows]

37. Witness on the scene

Said he was looking confused and his face was bloody (about what you expect after getting beaten with a bat).

http://fox6now.com/2014/03/12/medical-examiner-called-to-scene-of-double-fatal-shooting/

http://fox6now.com/2014/03/13/maintenance-worker-who-shot-teens-has-concealed-carry-permit/

I know it's Fox, but it's Fox Local.

[Whiskeytide]

41. I suspect that's what the police are looking into...

They are holding the guy. Holding the 3rd alleged assailant as well. Looking at the video, maybe? Determining who started the argument and what it was about. Was he justified in shooting the first guy? Then - separate question - was he justified in shooting the second guy?

Could be totally justified. Could be he was looking to shoot someone. Could have been bad blood brewing between these people for a while and it escalated. Maybe the maintenance guy had been threatening these guys for months. Maybe the guys were threatening him for months and that's why he started carrying a gun. Maybe he shot the first guy in self defense, and then murdered the second guy. Maybe one of the guys was having an affair with the maintenance man's wife and he caught them. Maybe they were trying to break out of the Matrix and he was sent to stop them....

The point is we don't know anything more than the basic facts right now, and virtually ANY scenario can be squeezed into those basic facts. The back story and the details will eventually be released and then we can pass judgment.

[jberryhill]

43. We have a winner!

There is some sort of apparent belief that the police are supposed to let people go who have just shot someone on the sketchiest of facts.

[NickB79]

42. He kept firing until his gun ran dry, most likely

A few blows to the head from a baseball bat might make it a little hard to aim precisely, fire a shot, ascertain if the assailant has been stopped, and make a rational decision about how to proceed next.

More likely is he pulled out his gun while being beaten and started blasting in the general direction of the attackers until he ran out of ammo. And that in itself is not even evidence he committed a crime; it could be used in his defense to show he was so scared for his life he unloaded the magazine/cylinder in absolute fear.

[arcane1]

15. "the black grievance industry"?

[geek tragedy]

19. granite pizza for the racist troll, delivery within 30 minutes nt

[CVN-68]

29. Not even 30 minutes.

[Aerows]

13. The man was hospitalized for the injuries, too

If he has a CCW, he was completely justified in shooting them. The other guy is facing a substantial battery charge.

That makes no damn sense to me. If three people are holding you down and wailing on you with a baseball bat, that seems to me to be exactly the time to pull a weapon and exercise self-defense.

[jberryhill]

17. Well okay then

Nobody who was injured in a violent conflict could possibly have done anything wrong.

The entire uproar over the Trayvon Martin case was that they let Zimmerman go before really checking out his story. I actually don't care what the verdict was in the trial - the point was that there was a trial.

[geek tragedy]

22. this isn't the Trayvon trial.

1) three vs 1
2) use of a potentially deadly weapon as aggressors

sorry, there's no jury on this planet that finds beyond a reasonable doubt there's no self-defense. prosecutors know it

[jberryhill]

25. "as aggressors"

I guess I'm missing the part of the story that explains exactly how the confrontation unfolded.

There is NO HARM in him being held on probable cause until his story checks out. It very well may, and it probably will. But the notion that police are supposed to make snap judgments on these things seems contrary to what I know about your background.

[geek tragedy]

27. police aren't required to make a snap judgment, but they're not supposed to arrest people

without charging them, certainly not if they don't think the person committed a crime.

no reason they couldn't take his gun and clothes into evidence, and then release him.

[jberryhill]

31. That's just not true

He can be held on probable cause pending further investigation.

You are going to have to make up your mind whether or not the police here are just bone dead stupid or whether you want to rely on second hand accounts of what the police said.

[geek tragedy]

36. 'probable cause'

has there been a hearing? an affidavit filled out by the officers?

I'm guessing that the shooter and bat wielders are of different races and they are holding the guy for political reasons, i.e. to not be accused of letting a George Zimmerman go, lest that interfere with the D.A.'s election prospects.

[Aerows]

23. More information

"Investigators recovered the gun and the bat used in the incident."

In the Zimmerman/Martin case, it was Zimmerman against a dead Martin, and no weapons of any sort were found on Martin. In this case, the bat was recovered. I'm sure there will be DNA evidence of who was on the bad end of the baseball bat if he was hospitalized. 3-on-1 with a baseball bat isn't going to turn out well for the person getting beaten by 3 people.

[jberryhill]

26. What is the third person saying?

[geek tragedy]

28. "his face swung aggressively at my bat?" nt

[jberryhill]

32. "he threatened me with a gun"

You tell me. What is he saying?

[geek tragedy]

38. nothing if he is smart nt

[Aerows]

39. Witness on the scene

recognized the maintenance man, and said he looked "confused" and his face was bloody. I'm pretty sure the maintenance man wasn't exactly interested in diplomacy after getting knocked in the head with a bad and bleeding. There is surveillance tape, too, that shows the beating and the shooting. We'll see what happens.