Life-sized fetus causes cafeteria controversy at Connecticut school

[The Straight Story]

BRANFORD, Conn. (WTNH)– Life-sized replicas of fetuses are too much for lunchtime at Branford High School. A student leader of the school’s pro-life club says the principal banned her from using the models and she is fighting that.

Seventeen-year-old Samantha is a senior at Branford High School and she is learning a harsh lesson in education policy after trying to set up a pro-life table during lunch at Branford High.

“When we asked our principal at our school if we can have this set up during lunch and have an opportunity for kids to come over and take a look at our display, he said no,” said Samantha Bailey-Loomis.

Samantha is the founder of the students for life club. Their table is complete with blown-up images of fetuses and real- life sized fetus models that look just like the real thing and she says that doesn’t sit well with her principal.

“He tells us that this topic in particular is too controversial to be talked about in public school,” said Bailey-Loomis.

http://wwlp.com/2014/03/14/life-sized-fetus-causes-cafeteria-controversy-at-connecticut-school/

[shenmue]

1. What the hell?

Why did she think that was appropriate for the lunchroom?

[uppityperson]

107. I looked at the video and my main concerns are the editorializing, false info and the enlarged photo

Editorializing with the embryonic/fetal display including calling a 4 week fetus a Baby. False info such as "Week 4, the baby's heart has a steady beat". Enlarged photos showing a 1 month embryo in-utero being 8 inches long.

If it were simply a display of fetuses with non-editorializing and accurate info and non-graphic photos, would be ok.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. I think she should be allowed to do this.

Kids need to learn about the consequences of sexual activity. And this display does just that.

[The Straight Story]

3. It does seem scientifically accurate (nt)

[CaliforniaPeggy]

4. It sure does.

[Ilsa]

7. I don't think the lunch room is the place for that.

I doubt they'll let another student borrow bananas and cucumbers for condon-donning training.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

8. I think it's fine.

Condoms are a different matter.

This is standard scientific stuff, where the kids learn about embryology. It's fine.

If the display were in the library, for instance, nobody would see it, or almost nobody.

[Ilsa]

13. Not every moment is a teaching moment.

Not every venue is for discussing sexuality. Kids need a place to socialize with friends where physiology and sex aren't being blasted at them by sex ed teachers, religious educators, pro-life or pro-choice groups. They get tired of it being pushed on them. And some kids are sensitive about bodily functions when trying to eat. Let them eat their lunch without having to look at or pass by another display of someone's ideals of morality. Put it in another room, not the cafeteria.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

15. Of course, you are entitled to your opinion. I don't agree.

Nobody is pushing anything at them. A display like this is pretty passive.

Just my 2 cents.

[Ilsa]

24. Sure, put a display of the human intestinal system on

Display next to it, including a big fake pile of human waste on a plate. It's only biology, after all.

[The Straight Story]

25. Is there a school club that covers that?

Since this was about a club at the school doing what others were allowed to do.

[Ilsa]

27. It's just another Science Project, like other science projects

discussed elsewhere in the thread.

[The Straight Story]

29. According to the article it was based on a school club doing what other clubs did

But she says other school clubs are able to promote their views during lunch.

“They had information about what their club does and what they have done in the past and they have pictures and they have poster boards just like ours, except for with different content on it,” said Bailey-Loomis.

[jmowreader]

39. How many school clubs put plastic replicas of body parts in the lunchroom at noontime?

I don't think the priapism club, if they had one, would be allowed their dildo display.

[The Straight Story]

44. If the school let them have a club than the rules should be the same:

“Other students have the opportunity to set up tables during lunches and to go around with clipboards to see if people want to sign up for our email list,” and BHS Students for Life wants the same opportunity, Bailey-Loomis said. “These are some pretty basic things that are protected by the First Amendment.”

Bailey-Loomis said that since the controversy began, “I have had people talk about me online, talk about me to my face ... I have had an angry mother complain about me to the Board of Education ...”

“This pattern is shocking...” she said. “It’s an issue of First Amendment rights and we’re being censored and I think that’s a cause for concern for everybody.”

The group has eight members, all female, including Bailey-Loomis, she said.

http://www.nhregister.com/social-affairs/20140310/branford-high-students-for-life-clubs-censorship-claim-draws-national-attention

[jmowreader]

46. Does the First Amendment give you the right to fuck up someone's lunch?

You know what the outcome of this is going to be, of course: no school club will be allowed to set up displays in the lunchroom going forward.

[pnwmom]

53. Cafeterias are huge places with four walls and no one who will be "fucked up"

needs to go look at the fetuses.

I was surprised, as a 10 year old, to see such a display in a science museum. It was a little shocking at that age, but it didn't make me anti-abortion.

If anything, it made me very, very pro birth-control.

[mbperrin]

134. Less than 1200 enrollment, I doubt the cafeteria is huge.

Our school of 3600 seats 400, and with one set of doors in and out, no one could miss a display there.

They've got 8 whole members - why are they even recognized as a club? They're just a very small circle of acquaintances.

Let them push their agenda in the foyer to the school - more traffic, and some squeamish child really won't have their lunch ruined.

[pnwmom]

139. It would be easy to avoid a display in the room you describe if the tables were on the opposite

wall from the doors.

Any room that could seat 300 - 600 adult-size people at tables is a LARGE ROOM.

"Some squeamish child"? How likely is it that a high school student has never seen an image of a fetus in one of its classes?

[mbperrin]

238. This is Texas. It is against the law to teach anything other than

abstinence. So no, there is no health class where a fetus is viewed and so on.

(The opposite side of the doors is the lunch line itself. There are 4 doors in a 12' wide area, so a standard 3x8 worktable would block one door completely and place the furthest distance at 9')

[pnwmom]

239. You've got to be kidding. Even in an abstinence class, they teach

about human reproduction and that involves showing pictures of fetuses. Pictures of fetuses are NOT illegal!

My sister and mother live in Texas. They would be if they read your post. Texans are not THAT ignorant, no matter how much it seems that way sometimes.

[mbperrin]

250. Well, here's the link from this fall, this current school year.

http://www.texasobserver.org/state-health-department-spends-1-2m-abstinence-project/

In September the Texas Department of State Health Services launched a new website, www.ourtown4teens.org, that will cost $1.2 million over the next year. The agency blitzed the radio and TV with ads for the site, claiming that it will help local communities reduce teen pregnancies. Although the site offers reminders why adolescent pregnancy is to be avoided—girls don’t finish school, babies have worse health outcomes, taxpayers foot the bill—it seems primarily to be a home for buzzwords like “community mobilization,” “strategic action” and “conceptual framework.”

Sadly, if you’re all fired up about combating adolescent pregnancy in your area but you don’t speak jargon, then this website probably isn’t for you.

There’s something else lacking too. The site doesn’t contain a word about contraception, even though Christine Mann, a state health department spokesperson, described the project as a “hub of coordinated information” to help communities reduce teen pregnancy. This omission is especially stark given that Texas’ family planning clinics have been defunded and access to birth control, especially for teens, is a real challenge. Texas also has the third highest teen pregnancy rate in the nation, yet the website sheds no light on one very practical way to avoid an unwanted pregnancy.

That’s because it can’t. Ourtown4teens.org is paid for with federal money from a program called the Title V State Abstinence Education Grant Program. Its sole purpose is to promote abstinence from sexual activity. Title V recipients must use the money to support abstinence from sex before marriage, and teach that sex without marriage could have harmful psychological and physical effects. Birth control doesn’t fit into that world.

[pnwmom]

254. Reading that was a waste of time. Your article doesn't say anything about what is taught

in "abstinence classes" or anything at all about how they teach human reproduction, and it doesn't confirm your claim that it was illegal to show teens pictures of fetuses in school in Texas.

[mbperrin]

251. And now, I wish you a good evening.

For some reason, you feel compelled to give these personal anecdotes rather than find out actual facts. I can't guess why.

1. The "facts" these 8 girls are pushing are wrong.
2. They want more than other clubs - they don't want to pass around a clipboard.
3. Texas is an abstinence-only state by state law.
4. Thanks for calling me ignorant. I'm a lifetime resident of Texas, my grandfather was an organizer in the oil fields here for the IWW in the 20s, and my dad helped organize the American Postal Workers' Union. You think that makes life easy for someone here?
5. So, see ya around.

[pnwmom]

255. "Abstinence-only" has nothing to do with banning pictures of fetuses.

As you know, pro-life people love to show pictures of fetuses. No one on either side of the abortion debate objects to high school students learning about human reproduction and seeing pictures of fetuses.

[The Straight Story]

136. How would it mess up someone's lunch?

Now maybe if it was a vegetarian group and they were using pics of dead cows or something....but these were pics of stages of development of humans.

[mbperrin]

132. These girls do NOT want to do what everyone else does.

They are not going around with clipboards asking people to sign up for their email.

They are editorializing a political position with biological models that might be offensive to some children trying to like, you know, eat lunch?

We have a Students Against Dating Violence club at our school. I wonder how the little Teahadists would feel if they brought full size color models of students who have been beaten by their "dating" partner until they died or went to the hospital? We've had more than one case of that this year.

I also think STD testing kits should be part of the display, as well as the rape kits used by law enforcement.

Maybe some of the live video of these victims being punched, dragged and burned that actually were posted on social media?

I need to contact some student leaders at Branford, I can tell.

[pnwmom]

151. These are 14 - 18 year old "children" who have almost certainly seen picture of fetuses before.

In some of their classes, if nowhere else.

Did you watch the video to the end, where much younger children looked at the items on exhibit? None of them looked traumatized.

And why should they? The images look much like the photos in the book I showed to my 4 year old daughter when I was pregnant with her brother.

[Chemisse]

116. If it is a replica of an embryo or fetus, there is nothing disgusting about it.

Now if it is bloody or torn up in an effort to shock, that would be inappropriate at lunch.

[pnwmom]

152. I watched the whole video. There were just the standard photos of fetuses at various

stages, and some plastic replicas.

Nothing blood, violent, or disgusting.

The pictures looked like the photos in the book I showed to my 4 year old when I was pregnant with her brother. Not a big deal for a 14 - 18 year old to see.

[hatrack]

253. Why didn't I think of that back in high school?!?!!

Yeah, model rockets, coin collecting, speech and debate, folk dancing, drama, and big pulsing erections - after all, it's just another student club!

[madinmaryland]

57. So should the "gun club" be allowed to bring in demonstrations of their stuff?

There is a HUGH difference between the science club and french club bringing in demonstrations and the "pro-life" club and "gun" club bringing in their demonstrations.

[The Straight Story]

60. So guns = babies? Or do we just like to silence dissenting views? (nt)

[uppityperson]

62. So fetuses = babies? Telling. nt

[lunasun]

133. +1 !!

[Ilsa]

67. This isn't about babies.

This is about starting on kids early in promoting an anti-choice agenda. They aren't teaching them birth control. And god only knows what lies they spread about actual, medically scientific development.

[The Straight Story]

73. It is about a school sanctioned club having the same rights other clubs have

The school made rules that allow clubs to do this but stopped one club from doing so.

It is not about pro or anti choice, etc, it is about whether or not the school discriminated against one club over another. Which they did.

I thought tolerance and equality was something we were for. You don't have to be for their message to respect their rights as defined by the schools. They don't need to discriminate - either change the rules for all the clubs or accept this one's display.

[Ilsa]

78. Yes, they get to promote their agenda no matter

how much they lie about their "facts" on embryonic development.

[cui bono]

157. It's political propaganda. So are you anti-choice then?

[The Straight Story]

183. It is not about that issue

It is about the school selectively enforcing their policies.

Other clubs can showcase what their club is about. The same rules should apply to everybody.

[cui bono]

191. It is absolutely about this issue. It's an anti-choice club, which by definition has a political

agenda. You cannot separate that out of the equation.

There shouldn't even be an anti-choice club allowed in school. Do you think they would allow an Aryan Nation club?

[The Straight Story]

198. So now folks who are not pro-choice equal arayan nation?

Wow. That's a leap.

8 young ladies define themselves as pro-life, the school let them start a club, and then didn't give them the same rights as they did other clubs.

Pretty simple really. If the school is going to do something for one club they have to for all of them. It is a simple matter of fairness by the school.

Either the school should ban the club or allow it to act the same as others.

[cui bono]

204. That's not what I said. Incorrect conclusion.

Both are political agendas that are protected under free speech maybe, but not appropriate for public schools.

So again I ask, do you think the Aryan Nation should be allowed a club and a table in the lunch room?

Also, it's not so simple because the school should not allow either imo. Anti-choice groups are a religious based political group and as such should not be allowed in school. Just as religious based teaching should not be allowed in school. School is for education based on facts, not for superstition.

The school should ban the club.

[The Straight Story]

205. So, in your view, it has to be religious based?

Google atheists for abortion. There are people who see all life as sacred. It can be as much philosophical as it can be religious.


If you have seen my posts over the years you know I am pro-choice and am a strong believer in your body, your choice.

A lot of folks on here don't agree with me when that ideal is applied to other subjects - it does not mean they don't agree based on religion. It just means they don't, at the core, believe in that ideal as being applicable in other cases.

The school allowed the club and should treat it the same as others. They didn't, which is where the conflict comes in. I wouldn't want arayan nation crap in the lunch room either - but if the school allowed that club and then treated them different than the others than it would be showing bias - and the problem here is their bias.

This isn't about abortion it is about the principle of fairness and how it applies to this particular case. The school wasn't fair and changed the rules. They were in the wrong to do so.

[cui bono]

207. Even if it's not religious based, though in all probability it is but we don't know that for a fact,

it shouldn't be allowed. It is a political issue. One that is legal. Why should that club be allowed?

Also, it has been stated that this display is not factual. Therefor it is biased itself and should not be allowed. Would we allow a display of creationism? That's not factual either. School is for education. Misinformation should not be allowed.

Ban the club and even if not banned, do not allow it to display propaganda. It's not about bias, it's about education vs. misinformation.

[The Straight Story]

209. So don't discuss political issues in a school?

If abortion were illegal would support a club that thought it should be legal?

Guns are legal - would a club that wanted to change gun laws be allowed? Should it be?

I like the free flow of ideas, even ones I don't agree with. In schools that want to teach only intelligent design I would applaud students who bucked the school and had a club of their own that thought different.

Disagreeing doesn't mean people should be stopped from their views.

[cui bono]

216. I don't think so. There are other places for that.

School is to get an education, not to try to push your political views, especially when it's to take away someone's right to decide what to do with their own body. It's one thing to discuss things in a classroom, it's another to get bombarded with propaganda.

Maybe have a debate for it or something, but not a political stand. Because that was not merely an educational stand. It was an anti-choice club.

[pnwmom]

156. Finally, someone who's being honest. This isn't really about adults thinking images

of fetuses are disgusting or shocking or traumatizing to teens. That's just ridiculous. (I watched the whole video, and there are no violent or scary pictures of abortions or bloodied fetuses. Just the same standard photos I showed to my 4 year old when I was pregnant.)

I can understand people who don't want teens to be exposed to pro-life views, because it seems like a threat to women's choice.

Though I disagree. I think instead of trying to prevent that girl from sharing her views, there should have been another table set up with information from Planned Parenthood.

The best way to answer free speech is with more free speech.

[madinmaryland]

99. There is no silencing of dissent. The issue is you have adults (18) who are finishing up

high school and you also have very young kids (14 and younger) who will be exposed to this. Would you want your children exposed to the nastiness of the NRA, the cigarette lobby, the Fred Phelps lobby?

I understand that you have very Rand Paulian libertarian view, but there are limits.

[pnwmom]

163. What on earth is "nasty" about images of normal fetuses?

I watched the video, and the photos are nothing nasty. They're the same kind of images I showed to my child when I was pregnant.

At the end of the video, they show the exhibit to some actual young kids (elementary school age) and no one is traumatized. By the time any kid is in high school, they will have seen photos like this in sex-ed classes. They won't be shocked.

[pnwmom]

154. Why is the pro-life club like the gun club? I don't get the connection at all.

And having watched the whole video, I think this whole discussion makes no sense. The photos are just the standard images of fetuses at various stages. Any high school student would have seen images like this in sex-ed classes years earlier.

I showed similar photos to my 4 year old when I was pregnant.

[Brainstormy]

228. Anti-capital punishment club

Could display scale models or posters of hangings, electrocutions and the science of lethal injection.

[kcr]

28. Funny that there isn't, though.

Other groups that put up offputting displays like that. Were other groups putting up material that would put people off their lunch? A biology group showing guts and gore? Any equivalent to back up your argument that other groups were allowed to do the same thing?

[jmowreader]

141. The people in the anti-abortion club say other groups were allowed to set up displays

Which may be true, but last I checked most of the clubs a school might have - including the biology clubs - either wouldn't have the possibility of a gory display or wouldn't put it in the lunchroom at chow time for decorum's sake. OTOH, pro-life groups seem to adore their bloody fetus snuff posters.

[kcr]

166. Yep. I noticed there wasn't any mention of the other groups specifically

or what kind of materials those groups were putting up for display. I'm sure there was a reason for that.

[pnwmom]

26. I assume you're not really comparing a fetus to a pile of human waste, are you? nt

[Ilsa]

32. No, I'm comparing biology lessons.

One is about human reproduction. The other is about how the human body converts food to fuel and eliminates waste by products. It's as much a biological issue (Science project) as reproduction.

[LeftishBrit]

68. When I was at school, our Biology teacher knitted a model of the alimentary canal...

and sometimes came to lessons wearing it like a scarf!

[Ilsa]

70. LOL. That's funny. I wonder if it was

realistic enough to get any "ugh!" reactions!

[enlightenment]

20. Why are condoms a different matter?

This girl wants to set up this display in order to push her personal agenda.

But Samantha says she is not giving up. She is going to continue to fight for her right to have her views heard.

If another student group feels that students need to know how to properly and effectively use condoms, how is that different?

[uppityperson]

52. How are condoms a different matter? This type display, with "blown up images" is meant to not only

educate with standard scientific stuff, but as promoting an agenda.

If they used real life from fertilization to full term, it would be better.

[cui bono]

153. She is doing this to propagandize, not to educate.

And according to a post above it is NOT accurate and therefore not educational.

I'm shocked to see more than one person on DU think this is a good idea.

[HERVEPA]

9. The same people who push this are also against birth control.

As a Planned Parenthood escort, I'm well aware of this.
They need to take their religious crap elsewhere.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

11. But there is nothing religious here.

If there were, I would agree.

I approve of her display; I do not approve of any stand against birth control. But as far as I know, she is not doing that.

[kcr]

21. Pro life, California Peggy. How is that better than a stand against birth control?

She isn't' just giving a lesson on fetal development, for cripes sake.

[HERVEPA]

66. If you think there is nothing religious here Peggy, you are extremely naive.

[kcr]

10. Really? Pressing the pro-life agenda on them while they're eating?

I can think of better ways to teach kids consequences.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

12. Maybe you can, but you're not the one with the display.

This young woman is the one doing the display, and I think she should be allowed to do it where she wants to, in the cafeteria.

Besides, kids do plenty of other things in the cafeteria besides eat.

[kcr]

16. What does that have to do with anything?

I don't have the display, so all laws abolished everywhere? I don't have the display because I'm not a pro-life whacko. It's also why I don't think she should be allowed. Why should we let pro-lifers into the cafeterias of our public schools to assault our children while they're eating? Just because they want to? That's ridiculous.

[cui bono]

158. so you're anti-choice then?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

161. Did I say that? No, I didn't. I am very pro-choice. n/t

[cui bono]

162. Well you are defending anti-choice propaganda in schools.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

241. Can you really not distinguish between those two things? Do I have to quote Voltaire at you? N.T.

[cui bono]

244. What two things? n/t

[Donald Ian Rankin]

262. Supporting something, and supporting the right to advocate for it.

The right to be wrong is the basis of freedom of speech.

[cui bono]

264. But we're talking about students at a public school.

You don't get the same freedom of speech there as you do out in the town square. Even in town square you have to have permits to protest.

[The Straight Story]

14. Plenty of schools have lunch room displays

From plant life to don't do drugs.

This is just another science exhibit.

[kcr]

17. So?

Some schools have lunch room display. That doesn't mean we allow right wing religious wacko pro-lifers to proselytize their agenda.

[The Straight Story]

18. According to the article:

But she says other school clubs are able to promote their views during lunch.

“They had information about what their club does and what they have done in the past and they have pictures and they have poster boards just like ours, except for with different content on it,” said Bailey-Loomis.

So you want to treat this club different than others while asking people to be tolerant?

[kcr]

19. Yes, I do.

Sorry.

[pnwmom]

30. Displaying a fetus isn't the same thing as proselytizing an agenda.

I don't think a pregnant woman seeking an abortion should be forced to look at photos, or ultrasounds, or even models.

BUT I don't have a problem with non-pregnant middle schoolers being educated about what a fetus looks like and how it grows. It actually might encourage them to use birth control, when they decide to have sex.

[kcr]

35. Are more and more people nowadays forgetting what context is?

Does that not even matter anymore? You do understand that this wasn't a fetal development lesson, right?

[pnwmom]

164. No. But part of the context is that in the US, we have a right to free speech.

So the answer to this 17 year old's free speech is more free speech, not less. In other words, someone else should have set up a table with information from Planned Parenthood (or something similar).

[kcr]

167. Not in our public schools

Sorry.

[pnwmom]

170. Why not? What do you have against Planned Parenthood?

[kcr]

172. What does Planned Parenthood have to do with it?

Answer: Not a damned thing. You think that because Planned Parenthood is often targeted by these religious fundy wackjobs that you think you're making a point, here?

I escaped a red state because these people were constantly targeting the public schools, and because the political climate there made it much easier for them to do so. I'm glad that the public schools here won't tolerate it. Free speech does not mean our public schools have to tolerate it. Period. End of story.

[pnwmom]

175. Oh I get it. You responded to a post you didn't bother to read.

Because otherwise you wouldn't ask that question.

[kcr]

176. I read your posts, so I don't know what you're talking about.

You seem to think this is a free speech issue and your'e mistaken.

[pnwmom]

180. This is what I said:

"So the answer to this 17 year old's free speech is more free speech, not less. In other words, someone else should have set up a table with information from Planned Parenthood (or something similar)."

And you replied:

"Not in our public schools. Sorry."

[kcr]

182. And that is beyond ridiculous

It's a lunch room in a public school. The answer to fundies wanting to insert their bullshit propaganda is to tell them no. Because it's a school lunchroom. That's what the whole context thing is about. Free speech doesn't mean any time, anywhere anyone feels like it.

[pnwmom]

187. The school allows other groups and individuals to set up tables.

As long as they're doing that, they shouldn't discriminate against some students with unpopular views.

Free speech isn't limited to people with popular views. Ask the ACLU.

[kcr]

188. I don't give a flying fig what the ACLU thinks about it.

And I say that as someone who is generally a fan of the ACLU. A public school is a place for learning. It's not a place for right wing fundies to proselytize their ultra religious bullshit. I don't care if the public school has clubs and groups.

[cui bono]

173. So the Aryan Nation should be able to set up a table at lunch time as well?

I doubt you'd really agree to that even if you think they should have the freedom to assembly outside of school.

This is a public school. You don't get the same freedoms in public school that you get in day to day life. Political propaganda has no place there. I don't know why they even allow an anti-choice club to exist. Abortion is legal. So far. Keep up with this bs propaganda and it won't be for long. It's already near impossible to come by in some states, is that what you want?

[Ilsa]

40. And how about the context of having this in your face at meal time.

High school lunch is a time to break bread with other students and have some innocent socialization.

I thinks teens deserve to have a lunch break without more lessons thrown in their faces. Maybe have lunch without having to think about birth control.

[pnwmom]

42. Cafeterias are large, noisy places with four walls. I don't think it needs to be in anyone's face.

Students who aren't curious will stay away.

[maddezmom]

97. Not all cafeterias are the same

This seems like a small high school with only around 1,200 students. My children's intermediate school has a larger enrollment and their cafe is not all that large.

[pnwmom]

149. My kids' elementary school had 400 students and 2 sittings.

Even a room holding 200 kids at tables is a large, noisy room. A room big enough to contain 400 high school students would be that much larger.

[uppityperson]

54. "blown-up images of fetuses" is proselytizing an agenda.

[Texasgal]

61. Yes it is.

I'm a bit perplexed that some people cannot see that.

[pnwmom]

165. The images look like they were ripped from the pages of the book

I showed to my 4 year old when I was pregnant.

The photos themselves are not the issue.

[cui bono]

159. It's an anti-choice club as indicated by their chosen club name.

What the hell do you think they are promoting? Science???

Come on. WTF has happened to DU?

[HERVEPA]

79. This is just another science exhibit? Pure Bullshit!

[The Straight Story]

87. Have you seen the exhibit? Here is a video that shows it

http://wwlp.com/2014/03/14/life-sized-fetus-causes-cafeteria-controversy-at-connecticut-school/

[HERVEPA]

93. I volunteer for Planned parenthood. I know this bullshit. Sell it somewhere else.

[uppityperson]

96. After a quick look, lies. "Week 4, the baby's heart has a steady beat"? BS.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002398.htm

Week 5 of pregnancy (gestational age)
The brain, spinal cord, and heart begin to develop.

Weeks 6 - 7 of pregnancy (gestational age)
The heart continues to develop and now beats at a regular rhythm.

Also, the photos show a 1 month EMBRYO as being 8 inches long. Uh. Huh.

I have no problem with the plastic real life models, but the information they give is misleading at best and lies in fact.

Having the models without the inaccurate and editoriallizing would be ok with me. The large photos? Graphic and inaccurate as to size. Allow only if the anti-war club can have the same enlarged graphic photos of dead kids and other bodies.

[Crunchy Frog]

144. Looked at the video.

Sorry, those "realistic" life size models are extremely unrealistic.

This is not educational. This is propaganda and advocacy. Some of those photographs the fetuses are dead. Other photos are showing the inside of a human body, namely a uterus, with everything you would expect of a picture of internal organs.

No, I do not think it should be allowed in a school cafeteria.

Do you think a no smoking club should be able to display life size models of human lungs with cancer and ephysema in a lunch room? I don't think they should, and I'm in favor of that particular agenda.

I personally think that anything with a partisan political agenda should be kept out of lunchrooms.

I know that I'm kind of out of step with the current DU in expressing these opinions, but I hold to them nevertheless.

[REP]

31. "Consequences of sexual activity"

Maybe you meant "possible outcome if birth control is not used or not used properly."

Or maybe having amateur morality lessons during lunch is a consequence of sexual activity.

[pnwmom]

34. I was thinking it might actually promote the use of birth control. n/t

[blueamy66]

215. Don't you think that there is a better way to "promote the use of birth control"?

How about bring in living, breathing babies and let the kids take care of them for a day?

How about let the kids have to prepare a weekly food/household budget for a family of three...including formula, diapers, rent, utilities, clothing....using a realistic income of 2 kids with, maybe, HS diplomas?

How are pictures of a fetus going to advance a pro-life agenda for teenagers?

[pnwmom]

218. Sure. But lots of things are legal (or should be) that aren't optimal.

[blueamy66]

230. What this "group" is doing is nowhere near optimal

nt

[pnwmom]

231. What is so bad about the "blown up images"? I showed the same basic pictures,

in book form, to my 4 year old when I was pregnant. It's hard to imagine that any high school student wouldn't have seen them in some class along the way.

[blueamy66]

233. Okay, if the students have seen them already, why show them again? In the cafeteria?

This serves no purpose....just lets these kids bring their religious views into the public school system.

[pnwmom]

235. We still have freedom of speech in this country, last time I checked.

Why shouldn't high school students be entitled to discuss sensitive issues in school? Where better to address them than in a place where other informed people could counter any misinformation?

I think the school missed an opportunity to set up another table containing information about birth control and legal access to abortion.

[blueamy66]

236. I don't believe that all freedoms translate into our public school system.

Can't lockers be searched?

Sure, discuss sensitive issues at school, in a classroom, in an appropriate class.

Just not in the cafeteria.

I agree about setting up another table...but then there would be another table and another table.

I guess this is my Catholic school background shining through. We had absolutely NO rights. If you didn't like the rules, you could leave or be kicked out and one of the 100+ kids on the waiting list would be thrilled to jump into your spot.

[pnwmom]

237. Well, people going to Catholic school know that they don't have the same rights.

It's supposed to be different in public schools.

[blueamy66]

242. BUT, can't lockers be searched?

Aren't there dress codes?

[pnwmom]

246. Aren't we supposed to be progressives here? Not Authoritarian Central?

Don't progressives usually support free speech and other civil rights for high school students?

Aren't some of us making an exception here because we don't want this particular student to have free speech?

[uppityperson]

252. Let's pretend there is a White Power club. Should they be allowed to have displays in the cafeteria?

Or simplify to KKKyouth group with a display showing "for historical purposes" lynched black people, or the awfulness of the Jewish. Is that ok with you?

[pnwmom]

256. There should be exceptions for hate material, just as there are for adults in the workplace.

I saw nothing in the images of the fetuses or in the errors you mention that qualifies the girl's presentation as hate-speech.

If she was calling for the death of abortion providers, that would be very different.

[uppityperson]

259. Ah, so you subjectively decide it is hate speech and so it is ok to deny them the right to free

speech.

I am out of this discussion. Bye.

[Warpy]

94. Yes it does, but a 6 week embryo, done to scale, is not impressive.

My guess is that "life sized" means both full term and larger than scale.

Anti abortion people have to lie to get their point across. I just wish more people noticed.

[alp227]

265. True but a loaded sentence....

and beware that right wing fundie MRA types have been the ones pushing "CONSEQUENCES FOR SEX...ABSTINENCE ONLY"...so watch what you suggest on a progressive message board...what is really needed is honest, secular, science-based sex education that tells kids what sex IS!

[undeterred]

5. My college roommate didn't like it when I left my fetal pig

in the refrigerator.

It was wrapped in tinfoil and she thought it was her sandwich.

[Ilsa]

6. Real-life-sized blastocysts?

Someone might mistake some of that for berries and try to eat them.

[KittyWampus]

22. I don't want to see pix of a human fetus while I'm eating.

[Ilsa]

23. Neither do I, and I'm a nurse.

I think having biology lessons in the lunchroom is pretty disgusting and unnecessary.

[pnwmom]

33. What is disgusting about how a fetus looks? n/t

[Ilsa]

36. When I see fetuses, I have to also think about menstruation,

Blood, amniotic fluid, placenta, and frequently, the defecation that occurs in childbirth. Yes, fetuses make me think of childbirth, a very messy process that I'd rather not consider at meal time.

[pnwmom]

41. Maybe that's the problem. You're reading much more into it than the typical middle school student.

I remember, as a 10 year old, coming around the corner in a science museum and there they were -- several human fetuses, different stages, each floating in fluids in its own jar.

I thought they were real -- but now I'm not sure.

But I didn't immediately start thinking about menstruation, blood, amniotic fluid, placenta, and defecation -- as a delivery room nurse might. The fetus itself was transfixing.

In any case, it didn't made me sick, and it didn't make me anti-abortion. It just made pregnancy that much more real to me and, if anything, made me that much more likely to use birth control -- the first time, and every time.

[Ilsa]

43. Maybe teens need to just have lunch with their

Peers, socialize, and not think about birth control for awhile. Give them a freaking break.

[pnwmom]

45. That's what almost all the teens will do. Cafeterias are huge spaces.

Anyone who wants to avoid the display can easily do so, and most probably will. But if some are curious, what's the harm?

For the record, I am strongly pro-choice. No one should ever interfere with a woman seeking an abortion, or try to 'educate" her at that moment.

But I have no problem with teens being fully informed, and I think they have the same right to free speech that we do. If other teens can set up displays in the cafeteria, then they shouldn't be stopping this girl.

And I bet the ACLU would agree that she has the right.

[Ilsa]

51. How do you know they can "easily avoid" it?

How do you know there won't be pressure from a peer or teacher over discussing this display?

Speaking of easily avoiding things, they used to say the kids who didn't want to pray in school-led prayers could easily avoid that, too.

[pnwmom]

56. A teacher who would pressure them about this should face discipline,

unless she's teaching the corresponding unit in biology or health class.

I know they can easily avoid it because I've been in crowded cafeterias before, with walls and displays. Apparently lots of other people haven't walked by displays without examining them closely. I have.

[Ilsa]

65. I'm surprised you don't see this for what it is.

While a teacher can be reprimanded, this club is just another RW tool to indoctrinate kids against reproductive choice early on. Letting them push their agendas with their fetuses without scientific and medical, biological context is wrong. You don't know what lies about human development can be pushed with these amazingly well-developed fetuses.

Clubs like are pushed to get kids on board with their philosophy, not teach birth control.

BTW, lots of high schools have students already on health care tracks. They don't have to be L& D nurses to think about the full context of pregnancy, like blood, etc.

[pnwmom]

72. The answer to unpopular free speech is more free speech, not less of it.

People who are concerned should set up their own table with condoms and other methods of birth control.

[KittyWampus]

74. And the answer to a polite society is to give people safe spaces where they aren't confronted

with something like a fetus during lunch hour.

[pnwmom]

76. I don't think fetuses are disgusting, as some people here have said. Is that what you think, too?

[KittyWampus]

86. Good for you. Some of us do not want to be confronted with them while eating. GET IT?

It's that simple. Have some common courtesy.

Life size fetus= biology class.

Not lunch hour.

[pnwmom]

89. Then sit somewhere else. Cafeterias are big places. n/t

[Crunchy Frog]

147. Some of those pictures were of dead fetuses.

Others were quite graphic pictures of the inside of the human body.

While maybe not exactly "disgusting" I think they might very well put me off wanting to eat. And that's just me. I think there very well could be some people who might find them disgusting, and I don't think their sensibilities should be ignored.

[uppityperson]

85. You mean "blown-up images of fetuses", not just something like a fetus.

[pnwmom]

90. Whatever that means. n/t

[uppityperson]

98. It means enlarged photos of fetuses and embryos.

[pnwmom]

37. I can speak as a former ten year old who first saw a human fetus in a jar

in a science museum. There were several of them, actually, in different stages, each in their own bottle. Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm wondering if they were real (as I thought at the time) or replicas.

In any case, it was pretty shocking.

But don't worry, it didn't make me want to go out and get pregnant. And it didn't make me opposed to abortion.

If anything, that very real memory made me that much more determined, when the time came, to use birth control.

[mbperrin]

135. Yes, in a SCIENCE MUSEUM.

Context is everything. I also believe the museum will have a bit more professional proctoring than some junior high girls.

But what do I know? Oh, yeah, I have spend 3 decades teaching adolescents. Other than that, nothing.

[pnwmom]

137. The OP says the girl was 17. Do you really think, based on your experience with adolescents,

that a 17 year old would be traumatized by seeing an image of a fetus? Don't you think she's probably seen that before in some health class by that age?

In any case, there was no proctoring in my museum experience. I was on a field trip with one mom and four or five kids. We saw whatever we saw, without any special instruction. The only two exhibits I still remember were the fetuses, and a "picture phone." Both made an equal impression on me.

[uppityperson]

143. Kids at that school are 14-18. Are you saying the person who made the display wasn't traumatized so

no one else would or should be either?

[pnwmom]

145. In my husband's 8th grade class of 30, there were 4 pregnancies. I think that by the time

teens are in high school, they should have had sex-ed that would expose them both to pictures of fetuses and to full information on birth control.

I think the school missed an opportunity when it didn't set up a table about birth control -- offering free condoms -- next to the girl's table. I bet Planned Parenthood would have been happy to send someone in.

[uppityperson]

192. Having worked a lot in reproductive health, including managing a Family Planning clinic, I agree

they need education on it all including practicing with condoms, on displays, etc, as well as access to free or very low cost contraception.

[pnwmom]

222. +1000. n/t

[Vashta Nerada]

38. She needs to keep her goddamn religion out of school.

[1awake]

47. No, she needs to be allowed the same access as every other group.

end of story.

[pnwmom]

59. I bet the ACLU would agree. That's why they're not always popular.

They often defend unpopular speech, because that's the speech that is most often suppressed.

[1awake]

102. Yes, It took me some time years ago to realize that. nt

[HERVEPA]

232. You're not the supreme ruler. You don't get to end stories here.

[1awake]

240. Yes, I am. nt

[uppityperson]

48. "blown-up images of fetuses and real- life sized fetus models". This is what I have an issue with

have a poster or real life sized from egg to embryo to fetus, not blown-up images of fetuses. Also they need to have every size embryo/fetus models since too often sensationalized or late term fetuses are used to "promote the culture of life". Meaning not realistic as far as when most abortions are.

Finally, what this club is, what they are displaying, is far different than, say, Chess club. Promoting an agenda vs having fun or simply educating.

[Mariana]

104. One of the anti-choicers' favorite ploys

is to deceive people into believing that early fetuses are much more developed than they actually are - and they absolutely do target children and teens with these lies. Here is one example of that:

http://www.snopes.com/photos/medical/12weekfetus.asp

Someone should inspect this exhibit, and if any of the pictures or models are dishonestly labeled or captioned, it should be shut down immediately.

[uppityperson]

109. Oooo, she has that doll next @ beginning, opposite the 1 week dot embryo

At first glance I thought she meant that was the 1 week old but closer look showed otherwise.

Without the editorializing and with accurate info, it would be ok. No need to sensationalize it.

[MattBaggins]

212. Put the OP told us up thread that this was scientifically accurate

and the OP would never be dishonest.

[dembotoz]

49. can i bring in the corpse of my wife who died @25 years ago

would have to dig up the coffin
don't think it would smell anymore.....


leukemia developed in the 3rd trimester
lucky kid was developed enough for c-section
yesterday was his 30th birthday

with the diagnosis--the oncologist pretty much said one way or the other--the pregnancy had the end.
the cancer was progressing to damn fast.
my wifes health dropped like a rock.

no fucking fetus doll
women die--that is the reality

[joeglow3]

223. What other free speech should the government get to suppress?

[Brigid]

50. As an author I read recently put it on bringing up controversial topics in inappropriate settings :

Sometimes you just want a hamburger.

Is there any actual learning going on in schools today, or is it just all bullying and squabbling over politics all the time?

[Ilsa]

55. Exactly. Let them eat without having to think about contracepton. nt

[pragmatic_dem]

150. Because partents use their children like cannon fodder in a religous war. nt

[justhanginon]

58. Agreed! Can I get an amen for that?

Last edited Sun Mar 16, 2014, 06:42 PM - Edit history (1)

Meant to respond to Vashta who commented;
38. She needs to keep her goddamn religion out of school.

[pnwmom]

63. Maybe another student should set up a table displaying condoms and other forms of B.C.

Problem solved.

Free speech at its finest.

[uppityperson]

64. What about those "blown-up images of fetuses"?

[pnwmom]

71. Supporting free speech means supporting the right to express unpopular opinions.

So, without having seen those "blown-up images," my first thought is the same.

Even a blown up image, in a large room like a school cafeteria, can be easily avoided by anyone who wants to.

I think much of the reaction here is due to a feeling that if teens are informed, they'll suddenly become pro-life. I disagree. I first saw fetuses in jars at a science museum -- and it was kind of shocking, I admit. The memory of that experience made me that much more determined to use birth control, when the time came.

[KittyWampus]

77. People should be allowed spaces without triggers staring them in the face.

[pnwmom]

81. If they accidentally see a fetus, they can turn their faces away. As a former child who once

was a bit shocked to see a parade of fetuses in jars, I think this discussion is less about the teens being "triggered" and more about people being afraid this display threatens choice.

I don't think it does.

[KittyWampus]

84. This club can find other graphics to advertise their existence. And you've already been told

that some of us wouldn't want to look at a fetus while eating.

[pnwmom]

88. If you don't want to look at a fetus while you're eating, then take a seat away from the table.

Cafeterias are huge places with lots of places to sit. Get real.

[MattBaggins]

213. Hell no

Those of us minding our business don't have to move.

If you want to be a jackass in a public place... YOU need to move to an appropriate venue.

[pnwmom]

224. The girl was at the table the school allowed her, until the school reacted to complaints.

What information did she display that was so objectionable? It can't be that pictures of normal fetuses are so shocking. That makes no sense.

[uppityperson]

83. Then you are ok with blown up graphic images of dead kids via the anti-war club.

You keep talking about that school cafeteria like you know it personally. Did you go to school there or do your kids?

[pnwmom]

91. No, I'm talking generic high school cafeteria. They're all large spaces with four walls.

[uppityperson]

100. Enlarged graphic photos of Abu Ghraib and blown up kids are ok for cafeteria viewing.

Interesting.

[KittyWampus]

95. I came back to this thread to post the exact same thing. Would an anti-war club

be okay showing blown up kids?

[pnwmom]

101. I would object to blown-up images of a bloody aborted fetus in the cafeteria.

Which would be comparable to the anti-war photo you described.

But my understanding is that all the girl was showing were images of an intact, non-bloody fetus, and a replica of the same.

[uppityperson]

103. "I think a high school anti-war club should be able to display whatever it wants to."

[pnwmom]

108. I changed my mind when I thought about it more. I'll revise. Thanks.

[yuiyoshida]

69. I think I would take my lunch outside...

A nice day to sit outside in the sunshine away from all the noise and clutter of a school Cafeteria. Our high school was nice enough to let us do that.

[Tikki]

75. This is an before/after-school activity...not a lunch-time feature.

The topic is not too controversial for school, just not appropriate for lunch time.
She should be able to invite students who want to view this display to come before and after
school bells ring.
Lunchtime is a break from the school curriculum and a chance for students and teachers to get a break
from each other.
It really needs to be a time where students can let go for 30/45 minutes and not engage
academically.


Tikki

[magical thyme]

80. can the gardening club put up a compost display?

After all, good compost is important to gardening. They could show the different types of materials used for composting...from banana peels to chicken, cow and horse manure. And also the different stages, from when you first create the pile to how it looks/smells week after week.

It's passive -- it's not like they'd be forcing their gardening beliefs down anybody's throat. Just showing fellow students where their lunch came from...

Just another opportunity for important education.

[pnwmom]

82. I would have absolutely no problem with blown up images or plastic replicas of compost.

Please, no smelly compost in the lunch room, however.

[flying rabbit]

92. Why do they even have a pro life club in high school any way?

The clubs I remember in high school were centered around an activity or hobby. Not a political agenda.

[TeeYiYi]

105. As long as their table includes...

...Planned Parenthood brochures and life-sized posters depicting birth control options...

TYY

[1awake]

106. People.. this board included.. are only interested in free speech when its theirs

and rarely other peoples. Add something that goes against what they believe... forget it.

[uppityperson]

110. If the info they gave was accurate, not lies like "Week 4, the baby's heart has a steady beat"

I would not be as concerned.

[pnwmom]

112. Do we know this girl was pushing lies, or just assuming that? n/t

[uppityperson]

114. I copied it from what was written on her display. No assumption.

[pnwmom]

120. Then someone should set up another table with the correct information.

This is what free speech is all about.

[kcr]

130. And then they could set up even more information! And then more tables...

And then they can have the creationist club! And then there would have to be tables set up to counter that.

No, that is not what free speech is about.

[pnwmom]

219. Of course it is. What do you think free speech means? Only the cool kids get a table? n/t

[cui bono]

189. No. In a public school free speech is not about allowing propaganda that is a bunch of lies

for political purposes. That is abusive. Schools are for education.

What you are saying now is we should allow both sides of an issue even if one is flat out wrong and full of lies for political gain. So we should allow a flat earth club to put up a display as long as there's a club to put up a display with the correct info? We should allow a religious display of Genesis as long as there is an evolution display next to it? Schools are not the place for religious views pushing political issues. Abortion is legal. Won't be much longer if we allow this crap.

Come on, that's ridiculous. We cannot pander to the anti-intellectual religious nutjobs. That's what the party does as a whole, pander to the Republicans instead of saying, no, you're crazy, and look where we are now.

For fuck's sake. This is supposed to be a Democratic board! I gave up on progressive a long time ago, the Democratic is right in the name.

[pnwmom]

220. What is wrong with the images that people here are so upset about?

The same basic images that I showed to my four year old when I was pregnant and were completely non-traumatizing.

[MattBaggins]

214. No free speech is not about letting kids pass off inaccurate

info in a school project.

[pnwmom]

221. I didn't see anything in the article about inaccurate information. Did you? n/t

[The Straight Story]

117. Ok, so have the principal tell her she is off by a week and change the wording

They weren't worried though about what the display said but about the images - were any of those images fake?

Bottom line is the school didn't want that club to be able to do what others did because they didn't like the message.

[uppityperson]

121. I do not have access to where the images came from, nor could I clearly see

what they said. I copy/pasted the one place they came in close to the display and found they lied and you are also mistaken. I am not saying you lied, far from it. I am saying you are mistaken in your math. She claimed "Week 4, the baby's heart has a steady beat". Science shows that doesn't happen until 6-7 weeks.

The difference between 4 and 6/7 is not "a week" but 2-3. Or 50% older, if you want to say "only 2 weeks". As a middle aged person, 2 weeks does not make much of a difference. As a 4 or 6 week embryo, it doees.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002398.htm

Week 5 of pregnancy (gestational age)
The brain, spinal cord, and heart begin to develop.

Weeks 6 - 7 of pregnancy (gestational age)
The heart continues to develop and now beats at a regular rhythm.

If you can find images of the enlarged photos she used I would be happy to do a search online but I am unable to with only the brief look on the video.

Are you ok with an anti-war club having a display including enlarged photos of Abu Ghraib or kids injured/killed in war? Or even this girl?

[The Straight Story]

125. The heart forms at 5 weeks. And were they showing aborted fetuses?

If so I could why you make the comparison to war (although some might interpret it as you see both as a form of war and showing the victims isn't good in a lunch room).

IF the school had said "You can't show this because some of the facts are inaccurate" than fine - they could fix that info and put it back up.

Does the school fact check every display by every club? That would be fair. The school stopped a club from what they let other clubs do (promote themselves and display information relating to it).

it is not about the content but about fairness for all.

[uppityperson]

129. Week 5 "The brain, spinal cord, and heart begin to develop." There's no way it could beat at 4 weeks

like they said.

[Crunchy Frog]

184. To be fair

There are different ways of counting, depending on if your going from LMP, or going from the point at which development actually began. When you're 4 weeks pregnant, it's actually only about 2 weeks after ovulation. If you're counting according to the time the embryo has actually been developing, then 4 weeks is about when the heart begins beating.

I went through IVF and frozen embryo transfer, so I kind of obsessed about every stage of development early on.

What I think is much worse is that "realistic" 12 week fetus doll. Other than size, that one is about 22 weeks off, looking more like a mildly preterm newborn, like my IVF twins were. No actual 12 week fetus has subcutaneous fat, chubby cheeks, muscle tone, and a mouth with little round lips that are ready to begin suckling.

I'd be very curious to know what other clubs they have at that school, and what kinds of displays they have. They weren't very forthcoming on that information. Are we talking chess clubs with pictures of chess games?

[uppityperson]

193. I didn't look that closely at them all, but giving inaccurate false "info" is wrong.

[xfundy]

111. I can't help but wonder

whether some of the blown-up pics are those of aborted fetuses like those used by some anti-choicers driving moving billboards.

There's probably much more to the story.

[pnwmom]

113. I have trouble seeing what the fuss is about, unless it's that people feel that this threatens

a woman's right to choose -- which it would, if this kind of information were being forced on women who requested abortions. But this is not that situation.

I am strong pro-choice, but also pro- free speech. And in my experience, being exposed to this type of information made me want to use birth control. Religiously.

Many years later, I showed "blown up images" of fetuses to my four year old when I was pregnant with her brother. She took it in stride. Why would high school students be traumatized by this? The images aren't bloody or violent. What is so disturbing about an image or a replica of a fetus?

Legally, teens have the same right to free speech that we do. So if you object to the content of her speech -- her anti-abortion views -- then you are objecting to her right to speech.

[uppityperson]

115. Did you look at the display? What is so disturbing about promoting lies to teens about reproduction

and human development?

"So if you object to the content of her speech -- her anti-abortion views -- then you are objecting to her right to speech."

No. Just plain wrong. Taking that as you wrote it, objecting to any content, to any display is objection to right to speech. Are you serious? No one should be able to object to anything as it limits the other person's right to speech?

You object to what I am saying. Why are you trying to limit my freedom to speak?

My right to free speech allows me to object to the content of her display.

[pnwmom]

119. Why do you think I'm trying to limit YOUR freedom of speech? Does disagreeing with you

imply that? Of course not.

And if you were a student at that school, I would fully support your right to set up your own pro-choice table, complete with coat-hangers.

[uppityperson]

122. "So if you object to the content of her speech -- her anti-abortion views -- then you are objecting

You wrote " So if you object to the content of her speech -- her anti-abortion views -- then you are objecting to her right to speech."

You object to the content of my speech--the schools views--then you are objecting to my right to speech.

Copy/pasted from what you wrote.

[pnwmom]

124. You are objecting to her table being there because you're objecting to what she's saying.

I'm not suggesting anyone block you from posting here because I disagree with your speech. That would be the equivalent.

[Chemisse]

118. She should be able to show this!

It is factual information; it is not offensive or disgusting, and it does not even present opinion or offer persuasion. There is nothing wrong with kids learning more about fetal development.

I think the principal is just being cowardly.

[uppityperson]

123. Except the written stuff by the embryonic/fetal display gives incorrect and misleading information.

Fact is a 4 week old embryo does not have a beating heart, like I read next to the 4 week development stage. That doesn't happen for another 2-3 weeks.

And that was with a very quick look at the video of her display.

[llmart]

126. What the hell?

A "pro-life club"??? Since when is there such a thing in a public high school?

This is ridiculous. I know it's not 1950 any longer, but this smacks of religious based clubs.

Whatever happened to chess clubs, the pep club, photography club, etc.?

What a ridiculous country this has become. Everything is in-your-face nowadays.

[Ilsa]

128. And some good DU folks think there is an infinite amount

of space in HS cafeterias where students can set up another table with info to refute the last table! I can imagine the principal screaming, "Enough! No more tables except for eating!"

Our cafeterias are overcrowded. I know of schools less than 5 years old that are too crowded for this shit.

[Hekate]

127. The pix of fetus-dollies I've seen are not that true-to-life for the first 4 months....

Instead they look like teensy versions of viable fetuses. They're mass-produced for use by anti-choice propagandists, suitable for gifting even for the very young. (Pardon me while I search my medicine cabinet for an anti-emetic). I can just imagine some fanatic handing one to a Girl Scout cookie seller.

I'd MUCH rather Planned Parenthood be invited to school campuses to talk about waiting till you're ready, how to say no, and how to prepare for when you are ready to say yes. At least PP doesn't peddle lies, and they have great teen programs.

[pnwmom]

138. Couldn't they do both? I'm all for more birth control instruction/availability in the schools.

They could also have set up a table in the same cafeteria.

[Hekate]

208. PP makes the RW froth at the mouth because tho less than 5% of what they do ...

...involves abortion, RWers try to tell people that PP is all about abortion and sexual licentiousness. PP has access in some areas, but not in Red states, yet their educational programs are so valuable.

If anti-choicers offered honest education and reproductive health services, I would not care about their aversion to abortion. But invariably they are all about abstinence-only for teens, and lie to them about the effectiveness of contraception. That's my objection to the purveyors of the plastic fetuses.

It's sad, but somewhere along the line during the Bush/Cheney era I just gave up trying to tell people here that we can find common ground on some issues with the anti-choicers. They are just too entrenched in fanaticism.

[lindysalsagal]

131. Free speech is curtailed in a school for good reasons:

The priority is the comfort of all students. This lunchroom display is inappropriate, period. It also runs contrary to the establishment clause.

[pragmatic_dem]

160. Next they'll put up a factual display of creationism -nt

[joeglow3]

226. Athiests against abortion

http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html

[pragmatic_dem]

140. Then the anti-war group should be allowed to show bloody bodies, dead children and maybe

aftermath of cluster munitions and land mines.

And the anti-gun group should be able to show dead bodies caused by gun violence.

Maybe the health club can show pictures of autopsies.

Can the anti-terrorist group show pictures of terrorists and bombing victims?

How about they Future Gynecologists and Proctologists Club show their photos and models as well? You know - to really drive home the message.

And the pro-hunting group should be allowed to skin animals and mount their trophies right there in the caf as well.

Fairs, fair, right?

Jesus. Seriously??? What the fuck????

Leave it to all those "pro-life" sympathizers, to equate posters for the "French Club" with pictures/models of fetuses.

How fucked up do you have to be to approve this shit in a school cafeteria?

This is a classic example of false equality.

Seriously - if you think this is OK and find yourself apologizing for this behavior, you are EXACTLY the problem infecting both the Democratic Party and our education system.

God help us.

[The Straight Story]

142. What is it you think they are showing?

Photos of stages of development are not the same as war victims.

It is a school club. Other clubs get to show things relating to their club. They weren't showing anything you wouldn't see in a science class.

They are not showing abortions or aborted fetuses. Just basic science photos of what a fetus looks like.

[pragmatic_dem]

146. lol - science? Right because we know the pro-life groups are pro-science, besides what do you

have against showing war torn bodies? That is also scientific and factual.

Do you have something against learning the facts of war and violence?

After all, lunch should be about shoving your religious views and political opinions down someone's throat, right?

[The Straight Story]

148. Again, what do you think the pics show that they are displaying? (nt)

[pragmatic_dem]

155. in the interest of science - i should be allowed to display amputations from cluster munitions...

what is wrong with that? I just think an anti-war club should be allowed to express their factual views just like pro-life religious organizations.

Again, I am asking you what do you have against science - maybe a model that shows blood splurting into a bucket.

After all, kids in a cafeteria are captive, they can't leave, they have limited time.

Maybe a factual display of religious inspired violence would also be good.

Including the pictures of dead men and women from abortion clinic bombings and dead bodies from doctors shot to death by pro-life groups.

In the interest of a precious learning moment, I know you would approve.

[pnwmom]

178. These aren't photos of fetuses that were dismembered in abortions.

They're just standard, normal fetus photos. What is so threatening about the photos?

[pnwmom]

174. If it's okay to show pictures of war torn bodies, then you would have to approve pictures

of dismembered, bloodied fetuses. That WOULD be the equivalent. Are you fine with that?

As it is, the girl was merely showing photos of the same kinds of pictures I showed to my 4 year old when I was pregnant. No big deal.

[pragmatic_dem]

197. Yes, of course, I would approve pictures of bloody fetuses, that's exactly where your logic goes

and then, of course, since kids can't leave or avoid it, let's go all the way, why not let the Porn Club have a table and the Society for Crushing Small Animals? There are a lot of kids out there who are very interested in bloody anything.

Maybe the Legalize Heroin Club and Satan's Club for Animal Sacrifice can have a table as well.

After all, freedom of speech and fairs, fair - right?

I mean if you don't like looking at dead Iraqi children with heads dismembered from drone attacks, you don't have to look, right?

Who would complain? It is historical fact, something that all children should see so they understand the consequences of their actions.

[pnwmom]

168. No, the equivalent to THAT would be if the girl were trying to show pictures of

dismembered and bloodied fetuses.

Your own example is a classic example of false equality. There was nothing violent about these images. They are the same kind of non-traumatizing images I found in a book and shared with my 4 year old when I was pregnant.

As a person who fully supports women's right to choose, I think the way to counter this girl should have been more free speech -- i.e., another table containing accurate information on birth control, including access to abortions.

[pragmatic_dem]

169. The best way to stop this shit dead in its tracks...

is for some kids to put together some life size posters of people shot to death by pro-life groups, and maybe a display of abortion clinic bombings and their victims, and a video showing how pro-lifers harass women and staff going into and out of planned parenthood.

It would simply be in the best interests of science and history for the children to see what these people really look like and sound like.

You know, just being equitable, like the pro-life groups.

[pnwmom]

171. The pictures of the fetuses are non-violent. I think the best way to be equitable

would be to set up a table containing information from Planned Parenthood, including information on how to access birth control and abortions.

[pragmatic_dem]

179. You can just show the photos of those killed & injure by pro-lifers, nothing violent about that and

the bombings? That is historical fact and an important part of US history. Are you against US History?

The videos of pro-lifers harassing women and staff have to stay as part of the historical record.

I would be willing to compromise by not showing dead bodies of victims if you can prove to me those models aren't intended to show dead fetuses.

[pnwmom]

185. Did you watch the video? If anything, they looked too Disney. Not like dead fetuses.

But as for your other point, I would have no problem with a student setting up a table showing photos of victims of pro-lifers. More free speech.

[pragmatic_dem]

190. Oh - so groups should pass a commitee approval for only cute posters?

Maybe we can use some really cute cartoons to show what happens with religious extremists impose their views with violence? You know maybe a disney princess or some really attractive models yelling "BABY MURDERER" as they claw and punch women trying to get to a women's health clinic.

Maybe they could use some cute guns, too.

[pnwmom]

227. No. I was agreeing with you about having posters of the victims of anti-abortion zealots.

But for this to be comparable to the fetus pictures, they wouldn't be gory, bloody photos. They would be pictures of the victims before they were killed.

[cui bono]

177. Seriously. What the fuck is up with people defending this anti-choice political propaganda

on a supposedly Democratic message board. I know it's not a progressive board, that much is obvious, but now I'm beginning to wonder if it's Democratic at all any more.

Actually saying this is science??? Please.

[pragmatic_dem]

195. The new democrats...

are economic/defense conservatives (what's wrong with putting social security on the table, single payer would never work, spying keeps us safe, etc etc etc) and socially liberal (except for abortion, but gay marriage is OK as long as it is civil union and their kid doesn't bring one home, etc etc etc).

[Crunchy Frog]

196. It's true. I'm starting to not even recognize this board anymore. n/t

[Ilsa]

211. Great. that's the fifth new table in the cafeteria

that the principal has to approve!

Seriously, none of this propaganda belongs in a high school or a cafeteria, though, right? Although, if they get your their way, I think your idea is best!

[petronius]

181. I can't quite tell from the article if she was banned from having any table at all,

or if she would have been allowed to have a table but just without some of the specific content.

If the former, I think the school would be in the wrong - any recognized club should have equal access, even if their purpose for being is inane, ignorant, or abhorrent.

But if the latter, I think it's OK - the school should be able to exclude gory or shock-content material, as long as it's done evenly across the board. That goes for the anti-choice group, the anti-slaughterhouse club, the proctology team, whatever. (My preference, though, would be to simply require that the potentially shocking material be screened in some way, so that viewers could actively consent but the 'speech' would be allowed...)

[The Straight Story]

186. Ummmm

"the school should be able to exclude gory or shock-content material, as long as it's done evenly across the board"

Maybe I missed that part but my understanding is that the pics and other things weren't bloody or anything else - simply depictions of a fetus at various stages.

[petronius]

199. How the school defines 'gory' and/or 'shock-content' doesn't really affect my

point - as long as the definition is applied evenly to all clubs and is not crafted to target any specific group, it doesn't matter if their line in the sand is at odds with yours or mine...

[pragmatic_dem]

194. Threatens establishment clause of bill of rights. Cafeteria is not an optional place -

kids are captive there. Forcing them to a special room to eat out of way of religious groups would be the same as punishment.

Religious groups are trying every angle to proselytize in public schools because they have a captive audience and this is clearly establishment of religion.

Let the fundamentalists home school if they want to eat lunch with posters about abortion and pictures of fetuses.

[petronius]

200. I suspect that would apply to school-sponsored religious activities, but all

recognized student groups should be entitled to equal access and opportunities. If a religion-based student club is permitted at all, the school should not be able to treat that club differently on the basis of its purpose for being...

[pragmatic_dem]

201. but by that logic, they could hang prayers all over cafeteria and have a group grace each lunch....

but I am certain that is illegal and settled law. If the group is religiously affiliated, it doesn't get same rights as the Spanish Club while school is in session nor with captive student population, using school facilities presenting to people who cannot simply avoid it.

Note it is not difficult to demonstrate that a pro-life group is, in fact, a religious organization.

[petronius]

202. Isn't that what the Equal Access Act is all about?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Access_Act

I think Bible Club or whatever else actually does get the exact same rights as Spanish Club...

[pragmatic_dem]

203. not during normal school hours while involving the entire student population

they can meet before/after school, they can advertise for membership, but they can't hand out bibles or fetuses during lunch or lead the cafeteria in grace or hang prayers in the caf. Any official school club also has a school employee as a sponsor and that is where the problems really start with religious groups in public schools.

Note, they can also have their own lunch away from a place where everyone is captive.

I am sure that a religious group proselytizing their views in the cafeteria during school hours violates civil law and I do not think ACLU would take this case.

[petronius]

206. I do think you're mistaken, and it's not about "leading the cafeteria in grace" or doing things

that other clubs don't get to do. Rather, every student-run and student-initiated club is entitled to the same access to school facilities during non-instructional time (which includes lunch, if the school allows other clubs to be active at lunch).

Here's a link to the law itself: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/20/4071

And my quick googling suggests that the ACLU does take cases and positions in this topic area:

https://www.aclu.org/free-speech/aclu-ma-defends-students-punished-distributing-candy-canes-religious-messages
https://www.aclu.org/religion-belief/aclu-supports-right-iowa-students-distribute-christian-literature-school
https://aclu-wa.org/library_files/Guide%20for%20Public%20School%20Students.pdf

The club described in the OP may have a religious underpinning, and it may advocate an abhorrent position, but it is entitled to be treated the same as all other non-curricular clubs...

[kcr]

210. If that's the case then that's unfortunate

Schools will start shutting all the clubs down. And to be honest, I'd rather they do that if they're going to be used as a loophole in that manner. What a shame.

[pragmatic_dem]

266. yikes, i did not think cafeteria time counted strictly as non-instructional time since students

cannot opt out of it and it is generally supervised by teachers.

Thanks for the links.

[pnwmom]

225. I watched the whole video. There was no shock-content material, no pictures

of dismembered aborted fetuses, etc.

Just the typical pictures of fetuses you see in books about childbirth -- the same kind of pictures I showed my 4 year old when I was pregnant. And the life-size replicas were nothing scary, either.

[uppityperson]

243. With inaccurate information by the embryos/fetuses. eom

[pnwmom]

245. A perfect teachable moment for the school. Too bad they blew it. n/t

[uppityperson]

247. Rather than "educate" at lunch, let the Health or whatever teacher give accurate info in class

exactly

[pnwmom]

248. Unless you're one of those progressives who think free speech is only for some people,

the people you agree with, I don't understand your position.

I thought progressives agreed that high school students were entitled to civil rights -- no matter what the Supreme Court has said in the past. Because denying civil rights to students is what has allowed such egregious situations as cases involving students who are physically beaten in school -- to the point of hematomas and even broken bones -- being upheld by the Supreme Court. Because high school students are too young to have civil rights.

Do you really want to uphold that principle?

[uppityperson]

249. There are rules in schools that go beyond the outside world. Are you saying limiting displays in

a lunch room is comparable to being beaten as it appears that way to me?

[pnwmom]

257. I am saying that when the Supreme Court ruled that students don't have

the same civil rights as adults, they used that principle to justify allowing schools to beat students, even to the point of bruises and broken bones. That is even a greater violation of civil rights than restricting free speech, IMO, but the Supreme Court approved it.

[uppityperson]

258. The Supreme Court said it is ok to beat students and break bones? what?

[pnwmom]

260. There was a 9 year old Florida boy who sued after they accidentally broke his arm

while paddling him.

The case went all the way to SCOTUS (this was years ago) and he lost.

[uppityperson]

261. Huh, I'd like to see more on that. maybe later will google, thanks.

+++ to educating them about reproduction

[steve2470]

217. bookmarks thread for Olive Garden/pitbull/breastfeeding status nt

[valerief]

229. I read the subject line and wondered, 'Why are they serving fetuses for lunch?'

Seriously, though, religiousy activities shouldn't be allowed in public schools. I think there's something about it in our Constitution (but I'm not sure if the Patriot Act negates that).

[TheSarcastinator]

234. They're not thinking BIG enuff!

Why just a life-sized fetus? It's so tiny, it can't really make the point that women who use birth control and/or get abortions should be publicly humiliated and personally haunted for the rest of their lives.

These students should insist on a massively huge, Macy's-Thanksgiving-Day-Parade size fetus balloon, larger than a Land Cruiser, with realistic dripping blood, that they can take with them everywhere they go. They can hold it with one hand while saying the morning Pledge of Allegiance, let it drift overhead during Algebra, and bring it back down to cover the teacher and the evil chalkboard theories of evolution during Biology.

Every skool should have a Giant Fetus Balloon. It's only free speech, after all!

[Lunacee_2013]

263. So a "pro-life" club wanted to set up a display in the cafe?

And it looks like that set up is more "pro-life" propaganda then anything else. It's a "pro-life" students' club, they have an agenda. If they use accurate fetus models and don't lie about anything, then I don't see the problem. But I've seen displays like this before, there's always a hidden agenda, always a hidden message. Usually one were the fetus has more rights than the mother or if the woman gets an abortion, then she's s a killer. It's not always that in your face, but its there.