General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDoes anyone really think that Putin is the 2nd coming of old Adolph?
No? Then can we dispense with the overwrought Anschluss comparisons?
First of all, it's a deeply flawed comparison, beyond that, by comparing Russia's invasion of Crimea to Hitler's invasion of Austria, there is an implied (or is it inferred?) comparison between Hitler and Putin- and that's creepy and it's fear mongering at its worst.
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stevenleser
(32,886 posts)http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/putins-crimean-anschluss/495462.html
In the 1940s, Soviet poet Nikolai Glazkov wrote that "the more an era is interesting to historians, the more it is heartbreaking for the people living through it." Watching the breaking news as events unfold rapidly in Crimea, it is hard to shake the thought that you are reading a history textbook. Only which one? Is it a book about the annexation of Sudetenland by Hitler in 1938? Or it is about Stalin's annexation of the Baltic states in the 1940s?
It looks like President Vladimir Putin took the lessons of both events to heart. Like Hitler, who justified his aggression as "concern for the lives of our German compatriots," Putin also justified the occupation of Crimea by concern for the Russian-speaking population on the peninsula. Putin provided asylum to Viktor Yanukovych, who said he still remains the president of Ukraine and its commander-in-chief and declared the decisions of the Ukrainian parliament illegitimate.
Meanwhile, to provide legislative justification for this Anschluss, the State Duma is already reviewing a legally insane draft law that allows the Kremlin to declare any territory part of Russia if the leaders of the territory request it.
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Lots of people making the comparison. That still doesnt make it right, but the justification voiced is eerily similar. That plus the actual military occupation without a shot and impending annexation and whatever your misgivings are about the comparison, it's too close not to make it.
cali
(114,904 posts)it's a piss poor comparison.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Did Putin not give the reason cited in the Moscow Times article? "To protect ethnic Germans?" Oops, I mean "To Protect ethnic Russians?"
Did he not take over the region militarily?
Was he not greeted by what seems like a cheering populace?
Is he not about to annex the territory?
Is the rest of the world not seemingly powerless to stop him?
Is he not scapegoating a vulnerable minority in his own population while this is going on?
What do you have to offer that is more compelling than those comparisons?
blm
(113,047 posts)He even appealed to bigots all over the world with that technique, rallying them to his side, including this country's GOP voter base.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)inside Tibet… especially after China purposefully moved them there.
Orrex
(63,203 posts)Always a bridesmaid.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)No he's not Hitler, but it is Anschluß.
The Russian government is a mafia/fascist regime.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)
LuvNewcastle
(16,844 posts)he isn't doing some of the same things Hitler did. History never repeats itself exactly, but there are a lot of similarities between current and past events.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)this situation but as a general principle.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)I will nevertheless return your doff.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Rabbis are comparing this to the Anschluss. I think they'd know.
cali
(114,904 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)I think you are upset that I have pointed out a particular group within the Ukraine who just might have a more credible, historical opinion on current events that is not easily dismissed.
bullwinkle428
(20,629 posts)to whipping up people into some kind of psuedo-patriotic fervor. You don't need a freaking time machine to go back to the run-up to the Iraq invasion to see the way right-wingers did this ad nauseum as a way to justify their own desires to see people "get blowed up real good" on the other side of the world.
BlueCheese
(2,522 posts)More like the Sudetenland.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)It is an apt historical comparison.
But since somebody, somewhere, is too fucking stupid to think about history like an adult we need to avoid apt comparisons?
Yes, anyone who says Putin is like Hitler for the purpose of saying Putin is "like Hitler" is a lying moron. Hitler comparisons as conversation-enders are the last (and first) refuge of scum.
But I am not going to agree that Anschluss is out of the historical cannon because ZOMG Hitler.
Crimea and Austria offer a perfectly valid historical comparison. And Putin is like Hitler in the very limited sense that both are revanchist leaders of nations that lost a big war (WWI and the Cold War respectively), and want to re-expand. And both are leaders of countries with big militaries whose military options are far broader than economic/diplomatic options.
And for the ZOMG Hitler!!! crowd... whatever. On both sides, whatever.
If a person means it to be heard as ZOMG Hitler then they are an asshole. If a person choses to hear it as ZOMG Hitler they are a fool.
I referred to the invasion of Iraq in terms of Germany's 1938 invasion of Poland about a million times. I do not regret it, It was apt.
It did not mean America was exactly like Nazi Germany. It meant what it meant. The wholly unjustifiable agressive invasion of a substansial nation by a military power.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Tommy_Carcetti
(43,181 posts)However, certainly the interim Ukrainian government is anything but the second coming of Hitler, despite what one DUer claimed yesterday:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4677598
"This recent situation in Crimea, I believe, is a godsend. First, it has permitted the situation here in Kiev to assume a certain level of normalcy. And I've been thinking recently that how much better the 20th century would have been if, within the first couple of months of Hitler's rule in Germany, someone had decided it was time to put an end to his nonsense and went ahead and invaded Germany. Maybe people in the states don't learn from history, but it certainly looks like Mr. Putin has."
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)and has a closer view of what is actually going on in the streets there, as well as local connections.
Not to say that individual doesn't bring his own perspective. But he did state clearly it was his opinion. He also discussed propaganda coming from both sides. And mentioned his wife's father is pro-Maidan.
Oh, and he confirmed later that his heritage is neither Russian nor Ukrainian. His use of English suggests to me that he's American.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,181 posts)And clearly from what he wrote, he has a very strong anti-Ukrainian agenda.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)unlike some DUers who voice their opinions as facts and then label anybody who dares disagree with them.
LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)Joe Kennedy was said to be sympathetic as was Charles Lindbergh. Henry Ford was an anti-semite.
I have seen a little support for Putin on this site in the past and with people I know personally who used to think he was weird, funny and cool because he rode horses without a shirt on or wrestled bears.
I don't think he's Hitler but I do think he is a sociopath with access to a very large military and all that comes with it.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)I don't need to compare him to anyone. He is simply a fascist piece of shit and it is no secret he holds thoughts of empire building.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)What specifically (and with historical relevance) invalidates the comparison-- other than some people may see it as "creepy"?
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)I agree with you. (Or with what you seem to imply)
It is a perfectly sensible analogy that we are supposed to avoid because its prejudicial effect is said to outweigh its probative value.
But its prejudicial effect does not outweigh its probative value in a discussion between sensible adults.
So we are supposed to spell it out in front of the children, or something.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)The main effect of the collapse of the Warsaw Pact and the Soviet Union has been the economic reintegration of those old imperial lands into a German dominated central European economy.
Poland and Lithuania include East Prussia, Pomerania, and Silesia. Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, and the Transylvanian part of Romania encompass much of the former Austro-Hungarian empire.
Missing are Ruthenia and Galicia, and the incorporation of those parts of western Ukraine is a logical goal.
Of course, going for the Don Basin and Crimea is a bit too far. The last time it was attempted Generalfeldmarschall Karl Rudolf Gerd von Rundstedt was forced to retreat with heavy losses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Rostov_(1941)
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]
Benton D Struckcheon
(2,347 posts)The nukes make him special.
The Anschluss comparison is relevant because the justifications used are so close to each other, but it's another standard issue of an ideology, as I keep pointing out: revanchism. Revanchists are a dime-a-dozen on the European right. Especially among Serbians, to whom Russians feel a kinship.
Peacetrain
(22,875 posts)He had the unmitigated gall to write a ob ed in our papers criticizing the US over Syria ..while supporting Assad who has killed and herded multiple thousands..
While I am not sure what will happen next.. hopefully we will have learned something and can work this out through diplomacy..
But oh Hitler used the same words basically.. that Austria was really part of Germany.. yadda yadda yadda.
But no one should try and make a silk purse out of that pigs ear.
He is KGB (though defunct) that is his history, he needs to put on his big boy pants and stop trying to surround himself with satellites again, like the old USSR
This is a new world..
We do not need old cold war warriors trying to restart settled hash..nor do we need apologists for Putin
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Through the defections of some princes, border skirmishes, and a long war with the Novgorod Republic, Ivan III was able to annex Novgorod and Tver.[58] As a result, the Grand Duchy of Moscow tripled in size under his rule.[52] During his conflict with Pskov, a monk named Filofei (Philotheus of Pskov) composed a letter to Ivan III, with the prophecy that the latter's kingdom will be the Third Rome.[59] The Fall of Constantinople and the death of the last Greek Orthodox Christian emperor contributed to this new idea of Moscow as 'New Rome' and the seat of Orthodox Christianity.[52]
A contemporary of the Tudors and other "new monarchs" in Western Europe, Ivan proclaimed his absolute sovereignty over all Russian princes and nobles. Refusing further tribute to the Tatars, Ivan initiated a series of attacks that opened the way for the complete defeat of the declining Golden Horde, now divided into several Khanates and hordes. Ivan and his successors sought to protect the southern boundaries of their domain against attacks of the Crimean Tatars and other hordes.[60] To achieve this aim, they sponsored the construction of the Great Abatis Belt and granted manors to nobles, who were obliged to serve in the military. The manor system provided a basis for an emerging cavalry based army.
In this way, internal consolidation accompanied outward expansion of the state. By the 16th century, the rulers of Moscow considered the entire Russian territory their collective property. Various semi-independent princes still claimed specific territories,[57] but Ivan III forced the lesser princes to acknowledge the grand prince of Moscow and his descendants as unquestioned rulers with control over military, judicial, and foreign affairs. Gradually, the Russian ruler emerged as a powerful, autocratic ruler, a tsar. The first Russian ruler to officially crown himself "Tsar" was Ivan IV.[52]
Ivan III tripled the territory of his state, ended the dominance of the Golden Horde over the Rus, renovated the Moscow Kremlin, and laid the foundations of the Russian state. Biographer Fennell concludes that his reign was "militarily glorious and economically sound," and especially points to his territorial annexations and his centralized control over local rulers. However Fennell, the leading British specialist on Ivan III, argues that his reign was also "a period of cultural depression and spiritual barrenness. Freedom was stamped out within the Russian lands. By his bigoted anti-Catholicism Ivan brought down the curtain between Russia and the west. For the sake of territorial aggrandizement he deprived his country of the fruits of Western learning and civilization."[61]
Russian history is a repeating cycle of collapse and aggregation.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)Very succinctly put.
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)There is an area we can sensibly call "The Russian Empire" that has inflated and deflated repeatedly throughout modern history (say, the last 500 years) in a particular way.
It is distinctive.
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)I'm not understanding the reason for your comment. Are you arguing that Russian history is irrelevant to the current crisis?
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)Germanic expansion into the region is a story of expansion and retreat over 500 years too.
My comment was not meant critically but more in the spirit of adding perspective to a valid point that you made. Some posters here take a one-sided historical perspective to make invalid moral arguments.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)of what we think of as "Russia" (which includes Belarus and Ukraine) and "the West".
I was speaking more to the comparison of Putin with Hitler. I don't think that comparison is as apt as the comparison to Ivan III. Incursions by Germany, or Poland before, represent the expansion/contraction of control of western "Russia." The situation that repeats throughout Russian history is less expansion and contraction and more aggregation followed by fragmentation into smaller pieces, which are then re-assembled by an aggressive leader. Putin has stated that he is trying to re-assemble the Soviet Union, albeit with a different political culture (cutthroat capitalism v. totalitarian socialism).
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Crimea reeks of Sudetenland and the anti-LGBT laws reek of anti-Semitic ones in Nazi Germany.
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)It is wholly different. But as far as the minority argument goes, I think the Nazis had a more valid basis (not that the argument ever was really more than a pretext for them, anyway).
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)For what? Invading Poland? Occupying France? Murdering the Jews?
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)There were about 8 million germans living outside of german territory when Germany had roughly 60 million inhabitants. So the "minorities outside of the homeland" was a genuine issue, not like in the current case.
As to the things you allude to, I have implied nothing of the sort.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)The Anschluss was essentially a hostile takeover of the anti-German Austrofascist Catholic regime, modeled on the Italian fascists, by the pro-German Nazis. And a significant factor in Hitler's ambition to take over Austria was his pan-German ideology resulting from his Austrian birth and his German military service.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschluss
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)in a somewhat wistful tone.
Using the pretext that his countrymen are being persecuted, he grabs back a slab of his former empire, shortly afterwards legitimizing his actions with a plebiscite. Er, referendum.
No, I guess you're right Cali. Where do people get off making these stupid comparisons?
treestar
(82,383 posts)he is head of the country that has it.
Comparing and Contrasting are intellectual exercises that can be done. You can compare and contrast the two situations. They have some things in common and others are different.
His "rescuing" Russians there as Hitler "rescued" Germans is comparable. As yet we do not know Putin's overall intent, but it doesn't seem he plans to eliminate other races to make room for more Russians in other countries. So that part is different so far as we know.
The Russian treatment of gay people is not as bad as the Nazis but it's not equality either.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)
