Putin's address today echoes rhetoric of some here at DU yesterday.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

Note: I'm not saying that anyone urging caution when it comes to the situation in Ukraine is a "Putin lover." Far from it, actually. However, actual Putin apology does exist out there, even here on DU, whether it be intended or not.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Putin address today:

http://eng.kremlin.ru/transcripts/6889

The new so-called authorities began by introducing a draft law to revise the language policy, which was a direct infringement on the rights of ethnic minorities. However, they were immediately ‘disciplined’ by the foreign sponsors of these so-called politicians. One has to admit that the mentors of these current authorities are smart and know well what such attempts to build a purely Ukrainian state may lead to. The draft law was set aside, but clearly reserved for the future. Hardly any mention is made of this attempt now, probably on the presumption that people have a short memory. Nevertheless, we can all clearly see the intentions of these ideological heirs of Bandera, Hitler’s accomplice during World War II.



DU OP from yesterday:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4677598


"This recent situation in Crimea, I believe, is a godsend. First, it has permitted the situation here in Kiev to assume a certain level of normalcy. And I've been thinking recently that how much better the 20th century would have been if, within the first couple of months of Hitler's rule in Germany, someone had decided it was time to put an end to his nonsense and went ahead and invaded Germany. Maybe people in the states don't learn from history, but it certainly looks like Mr. Putin has. "

[Nuclear Unicorn]

1. I'm curious to know where Putin and Friends conjure the Hitler references.

Near as can be observed the Ukrainians aren't running around annexing foreign territory. Putin is projecting and his apologists are magnifying.

[quinnox]

2. Are you suggesting Putin is taking notes from DU?

But seriously, it is considered bad form to specifically call out threads like this.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

4. Of course not.

But Putin apology shouldn't be treated like Nessie or Bigfoot. It actually does exist, even here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Has it occurred to you that perhaps as a resident

He is reflecting a certain view that happens to be in the air? Also that a certain percentage agrees and worst, is watching one side's propaganda?

I recommend a more nuanced view. I have been known to echo American views in things I do understand and even gasp, Mexican official views in some issues. I follow that media and have lived down there. So I take this actually as proof that some folks do agree with Putin and the Kremlin in Kiev. Something I suspected by the way.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

13. I have no doubt that particular poster's opinion is sincerely his opinion.

However, when said opinion encourages the invasion of sovereign nations on the precepts of "solving a problem" and comparing an temporary, interim government of an embattled nation to one of the worst authoritarian tyrannies of all time, there needs to be a line drawn and a rebuke issued, IMHO.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Go ahead and confront him

But realize that minor incident called WW II cost Russia over 20 million citizens, that includes the Ukrayne. It is a low estimate by the way. So rise of fascism is not a boogeyman

IMHO Putin is exercising a form of fascism, so are we. But the virulent type is actually expressed by svodoba. This is why the European Parlaiment also issued a rebuke last year. What the poster said about Americans not learning from history, he is correct. Americans look forward, a fault of America's character, and one that will byte us in the ass.

Europe in General looks at the past, it is fascinated by the past, and at times it draws the wrong lessons, or forgets to forgive. Why some scabs go back hundreds of years. In this case they are all looking at a small group of people, that barely has control (except one of the leaders is in charge of internal security) And as far as Russia goes the scabs of the Great Patriotic war have not gone away. That includes people who look East in the Ukrayne. And most people who look West as well.

By the way, the question of what would have happened if Germany was invaded by allied powers in 1934 was asked by a professor of mine in 1985. Coincidence, I know, he was of Russian origin, a refugee from Russian Soviet policies. Of course at the time that question made zero sense. It was a Western Civ Survey class. Once you understand the human cost of WWII... Yes, Americans did serve, point to full families gone, or cities obliterated. And our losses were child's play compared to European civilian and military losses. (And yes there are five brothers who went down with the ship. That was exceptional and led to changes in assignment of personnel)

Why we don't even use the same terms to refer to it. So assuming the poster lives there, that is the context for that.

But go ahead, confront him directly.

Worst case scenario by the way, that form of virulence will finally gain a real foot hold, not just in the Ukraine, but the rest of Europe. The neo nazi groups exist. I think the austerity policies are giving them flight, the Europeans are fixed on history, and fully forgot what nurtured that virulence: The Great Depression. Austerity is nowhere close to that, but the dynamics and lost generation are similar.

So far svoboda is not really that worrisome. Time Magazine compared the Nazis in 1929 to Boy Scouts. I give you that as food for thought. Oh and if you give me the statement of the Rabinate in Kiev, the priority is to get a situation of live and let live. Rabinates were issuing similar statements in the 1930s in Berlin while in private people were trying to leave. I heard an interview on NPR that reminded me of that. Not from Jews, but a family, doubt they are alone, are hoping Poland opens their borders. They fear they will have to send families West while the men have to fight.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

16. I understand in theory what you are saying, but...

...it is just preposterous to claim that at this point Ukraine poses any sort of threat that Nazi Germany posed to the world, even in its infancy. At worst, we are talking about a minority party in an interim government of a nation that is under tremendous stress from external forces as it is. And if the presence of an ultranationalist or neo-fascist element in government renders them the potential to be the next Nazi Germany, then just about every country is the proverbial suspect.

Could it happen in Ukraine? Plausible. Is it likely? I seriously, seriously doubt it. Should people be jumping to conclusions and calling for the invasion of sovereign nations under the every so slight plausible threat? Absolutely, unequivocally no.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Look west young man, to nationalist, nazi like parties and organizations.

You think the Ukraine is alone? That is the fear.

Think Germany and France, for example. Definitely think Greece and Hungary. The fear is, it gets a foothold anywhere where it gains legitimacy it will spread. Why? It did spread. Italy under el Duce was less warlike, but...and Spain's Franco lasted to the 1970s.

[NuclearDem]

18. "Look west young man"

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. What did I do? I just pointed out where far right wing parties are

Coming to be. The irony is that Angela Merkel is helping with the austerity she loves.

[NuclearDem]

25. Ah, nevermind. I read something into that I shouldn't have.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. That is ok, been catching up in European politics

For some reason I am stuck in county hyper local. Having done a lot of reading into the region during my masters I think helps.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Oh and I am not saying Putin is right

He is a fascist, not quite the same strain as Svoboda, but he is. He is also a nationalist in the strain of Peter the Great Russian nationalism. This is different from the Soviet strain. I am just trying to explain this is truly in the air. IMHO it will not stop in the Ukraine. See what I said about looking forwards and byte in the ass?

You could say it is in the air.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

24. I know that.

Never thought you were saying that in the first place.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. When I read Matt's post I read it in the context of very recent

Events, both in and out of Kiev. And to be honest, I am glad dad did not live to see quite possibly (worst case) World War III and armies on the march again. The last time around he had to do what he needed to do to live. The parallels are just chilling and farcical at the same time. Neither Ukraine, Greece or Hungary, in their lonesome, could pose a threat.

But, there are far right wing nationalist, neo nazi parties in Germany (mostly underground), France (kind of a mixed status) and in England. Hell, you could argue the Tea Party (which has more parallels to the actual nazis btw, since the industrialists did support Hitler, the Koch brothers support the Tea Parties, heck they are behind them) is a hyper nationalist fascist party.

There, I said it. This is a more global view of this.

Oh and so is Putin's party. Though that one has elements not quite of classic fascism, but more of classic late Romanov hyper nationalism.

[sabrina 1]

36. DUers have the power to influence the invasion of Foreign Nations?? Who knew. We sure tried to stop

the invasion of Iraq and nobody even noticed. So you think DUers helped the Crimeans make their momentous decision this week?

Well, all I can say is that if we have that much power, what should we do with it next?? Could we demand that the US, there I go again, supporting Putin or something, to STOP supporting the Dictaror, Karamov, of Uzbekistan? We've trying for years, but no one has listened. The guy boils people in oil, he committed genocide against his own people, and our tax dollars are supporting him. I remember Rummy bringing him a few million of our tax dollars and I was livid. Don't know about you, but when I saw I wished we had had the power we apparently have now.

This is great news for DUers, we have POWER.

[Blue_Tires]

27. I'm not convinced that person is who he says he is

His posts seem too tight and neat; he's pinpoint specific on some details while incredibly vague on some others...

And for such a serious topic, his level of condescension is a little too high, even by DU standards...

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. We had a training session on fire coverage on Friday

Social media, his post included, have one role for reporters, intelligence. Funny I have been taking that cynical view for years.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

34. You're the one calling him a liar. He's the one stating that his post is his own opinion.

Now, what were you saying about condescension?

[Blue_Tires]

37. I'm just saying...

I've been around a long time, and DU has been sucked in by these types before...Some of them lasted for tens of thousands of posts before being exposed...

And his "opinion" in my eyes seems overly biased and highly dubious...But then again I've been wrong before, so who knows?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

38. Fair enough. nt

[sabrina 1]

41. Which poster are you talking about, sorry it wasn't clear as you addressed it to Nadin who was

talking to the OP. The OP linked to another DUer. Were you referring to the OP or the the DUer he linked to?

[Blue_Tires]

42. The person giving us on-the-ground reports from Ukraine...

[Tommy_Carcetti]

40. He also posted rumor and speculation with a very winking "disclaimer." nt

[FSogol]

35. Call outs are bad, especially at a sensitive time for Putinistas and fans of RT

[geek tragedy]

3. the whole "no you're Hitler" argument usually indicates bad faith

anyhow, every anti-American dictatorship has its apologists who pretend to be left/progressives--just as every dead Muslim is a victory against terror to a much greater number of people on the right

[Tommy_Carcetti]

5. True.

Which is why I've tried to avoid it myself at all costs, even as it relates to Putin himself.

[geek tragedy]

6. Putin=Brezhnev nt

[NuclearDem]

7. Well, in the case of Putin, the Hitler analogy is becoming more and more appropriate.

It's not a reductio ad Hitlerum when the analogy fits.

[geek tragedy]

8. He's a lot more Brezhnev than Hitler. Which is bad enough nt

[LittleBlue]

9. Why does it matter so much whether others have a dissenting view?

Making specious comparisons to Hitler is hardly convincing. No one genuinely believes he's the second coming of the Führer.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

10. Well, at least one person believes the Ukrainian interim government is equal to Hitler.

Which is preposterous, but it received a lot of rec.

[NuclearDem]

11. Of course he's not.

He's just embracing the plutocrats, starting an oppressive campaign against a minority in his country, and annexing part of a neighboring country based on ethnic brotherhood.

Of course he's not Hitler. Hitler was fairly elected.

[okaawhatever]

39. +10,000 nt

[joeybee12]

14. I'll rec before someone alerts...

This is sort of a call-out, but nothing shit like the psot you referred to shuld be called out...teh stupid, it's not just for GOPers anymore.

[1000words]

19. Writing "some" in the OP title line ...

doesn't negate the fact you have called out a specific DUer, and called them an apologist.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

21. There have been others.

It's not my intention for a witch hunt, but Putin apology is not isolated to one specific poster. And I'll just leave it at that.

[1000words]

23. You haven't been particularly nuanced regarding the subject

Your position is clear and you are entitled to it, but respect that others may feel differently.

[Democracyinkind]

30. Ignore the heirs of Bandera at the cost of the people living there.

All you'll get from that is the creepy Latvian situation. The west would be well-advised to not repeat that blunder (for which it is already too late).

And no, I do not believe that the interim gov is fascist, or that it was a fascist revolution. But nothing good ever comes of mainstreaming fascism, which is always the effect when they're included in a government. Historically, giving fascists and crypto fascists control of the security apparatus is a ridiculously dangerous and stupid idea.

[Rex]

31. You think he posts here?

Probably still using Windows 98se.

[Octafish]

32. Nothing but cat.

[Rex]

33. Check out his kewl new tat.

I hear he is a Carebear Disciple - Yanni class.