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MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 02:13 PM Mar 2014

Why Pharmaceutical Formularies Exist.

Here in the US, pretty much every health insurance company and even government healthcare, like Medicare, use forumularies to deal with pharmaceutical products. Even in government-run single-payer healthcare systems, formularies are also in place. In each of those formularies, pharmaceuticals are listed in multiple groups.

Formularies are basically lists of medications and other pharmaceutical products. These are divided up into groups:

In one group are commonly-used, generic medications and other more or less inexpensive prescription medications. These are typically old standards that have proven themselves over time and are made available to consumers with zero or very low co-pays.

In a second group are prescription medications with no generic equivalent and some name-brand pharmaceuticals that have generic equivalents but that are still frequently prescribed by doctors who want their patients to have the brand-name drug instead of a generic for a number of very good reasons. The pharmaceuticals in this group have a higher retail price. Co-pays for this group of medications are higher than for the first group, but are still generally moderate and affordable.

In a third group are recently released and very expensive pharmaceuticals. Some are in low volume production and others have limited applications. In many cases, they treat illnesses that can often be treated successfully by lower-cost medications in the first two groups, but not always. Many chemotherapy drugs are in this list, as are newly-developed drugs that act differently than previous drugs in particular cases. Pharmaceuticals in this group are heavily advertised by pharmaceutical companies, both to the public and to the medical community as well. They're also heavily promoted to doctors by pharmaceutical companies. Many are not really better than previously-prescribed drugs for most patients, but both doctors and patients alike often want to try a new medication, one with perhaps fewer or different side effects or for some other reason. Entire classes of new medications often end up in this group, such as the latest medications for immune disorders like rheumatoid arthritis or psoriasis. Despite dangerous side effects, they are often the only medications that produce results for some patients.

Expensive to develop and in high demand for various reasons, the pharmaceuticals in this third group have very high prices per dose. Insurance company formularies often exclude these drugs from coverage, as does Medicare, as a matter of course. Patients must pay the entire cost if they use these products. Other times very high co-pays are required if they are prescribed. Insurance companies and Medicare do that, in part, to attempt to keep their pharmaceutical costs low. There's also another reason. In many cases, these new medications do not work better than older, less expensive ones for most patients. In some ways, putting these costly new medications in this third group is an attempt to control the number of prescriptions for them and to push doctors to prescribe less expensive medications to patients for whom they work just fine. There's always a push from the pharmaceutical companies to maximize their profits by selling as much of a new, high-priced product as possible. Formularies tend to reduce those sales.

In that third group, there is often a way around non-coverage of these medications or very high co-pays. There is a process by which doctors can document the need for these third-group, expensive new pharmaceuticals for particular patients. It's a clumsy process, but those medications can be covered if doctors make their case properly in most cases. The appeals process doesn't always work, and requires a lot of effort on the part of physicians and patients, at times. The burden of proof that that exact medication is essential falls on the patient and healthcare provider. Patients don't know, often, and healthcare providers are often not willing to go through the complex process. It's a very difficult process to get insurance companies and healthcare systems to pay for medications on this list.

There is a fourth group, too. This group is for experimental medications, off-label uses of medications, and other unproven uses. Generally insurance companies and single-payer systems offer no coverage for this group. A very good example is the use of Oxygen to treat cluster headaches. Medicare doesn't cover this, even though it's a relatively low-cost treatment. Their argument is that it hasn't been proven to work in clinical trials, despite a wealth of anecdotal evidence that it does. So, there are currently clinical trials that are ongoing. If they demonstrate that it does work, then Medicare will add that use of oxygen to its coverage. That's a typical situation. Medications and treatments in the fourth group can, eventually, be upgraded to other groups. In the meantime, if you use these, you're probably going to have to pay for them out-of-pocket, and the cost is often prohibitive. In the case of experimental medications, patients may be able to participate in a clinical trial for that medication, although that isn't always possible. Participants in clinical trials do not pay for the medication, but double-blind trials may also mean that you're in the group that doesn't get it.

Every health insurance company, government healthcare system, and government-run single-payer healthcare system has formularies. There really aren't any exceptions to that. They're necessary, because everyone wants the latest whiz-bang medication, and no system can afford to pay for costly medication for everyone. The pharmaceutical companies are responsible, in large part, for the existence of these formularies. They want to sell as much of their latest products as possible, even if an older, cheaper, medication is equally effective. I's capitalism at work. And, in most cases, a less expensive, proven medication which is now an inexpensive generic will work as well as the new medication.

That's why there are formularies. That's also why there is usually a way around those formularies through an appeals process, if you really need the really expensive medications because they're the only ones that work in your particular case. In a perfect world, pharmaceutical companies would operate as non-profits with the goal of providing medications to help sick people, always at affordable pricing. That is not the case, however, so formularies are the means healthcare systems use to try to control costs.

If we want affordable pharmaceuticals, the place to start is with the pharmaceutical companies. They should not be profit-driven. Perhaps they should be government-owned and controlled. That might limit the number of new medications and research into finding medications to meet unusual needs. That might be the trade-off. I don't know. But, as long as pharmaceutical companies can set the prices of new medications at any level they wish, healthcare systems will use formularies to control costs. They have to, or costs would skyrocket, making healthcare far more costly than it already is.

111 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Why Pharmaceutical Formularies Exist. (Original Post) MineralMan Mar 2014 OP
Argument for socialized pharmaceutical industry PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #1
It certainly is one of the arguments for that. MineralMan Mar 2014 #3
Do we really want Congressional hearings on drug research? theboss Mar 2014 #7
I think we would benefit from a government owned corporation that manufactures drugs. hedgehog Mar 2014 #66
I've been thinking the same thing. Or at least invents the drugs and patents them. pnwmom Mar 2014 #74
It's my impression that much of the research that results in new drugs is actually funded hedgehog Mar 2014 #77
It IS. And you've been reading my mind again! Why should we fund the initial stages of the research pnwmom Mar 2014 #79
And the rest of the world gets the drug cheaper than Americans even though Auntie Bush Mar 2014 #96
Right. It's a crazy system. n/t pnwmom Mar 2014 #97
Well written mcar Mar 2014 #2
Thanks. I'm afraid it might be too long for many people MineralMan Mar 2014 #4
Or, something that completely fails to address ... 1StrongBlackMan Mar 2014 #46
That's always the case, though. MineralMan Mar 2014 #50
True ... 1StrongBlackMan Mar 2014 #93
k&r ty for writing this especially questionseverything Mar 2014 #101
I was going to write something like this theboss Mar 2014 #5
Personally, I want a single-payer system, or MineralMan Mar 2014 #8
I think that is generally where the solution is theboss Mar 2014 #10
All this nonsense... MineralMan Mar 2014 #13
Didn't mean to offend theboss Mar 2014 #20
No offense taken. MineralMan Mar 2014 #41
Does her care improve her quality of life, or just the length of it? hedgehog Mar 2014 #60
Great summary and analysis naturallyselected Mar 2014 #6
Thanks for your reply! MineralMan Mar 2014 #9
Very informative post - thanks! nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #11
Thanks for taking the time to read it. MineralMan Mar 2014 #14
just make this clear.... Sheepshank Mar 2014 #12
Well, I think a lot of people are not familiar with MineralMan Mar 2014 #17
your reasonable explanation is appreciated Sheepshank Mar 2014 #52
My pleasure. MineralMan Mar 2014 #54
... redqueen Mar 2014 #23
tldr NCTraveler Mar 2014 #15
I know. I knew it was too long when I wrote it, MineralMan Mar 2014 #18
Large amount of good information in a short post. NCTraveler Mar 2014 #26
It should not be up to insurance companies to decide which med I need. Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #16
So, they should be forced to pay for anything the doctor wants to give you? theboss Mar 2014 #21
One of my meds costs 1200 a month. Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #98
In an ideal world, you'd be right. But, it's not MineralMan Mar 2014 #22
Do you trust the doctor at the insurance company more than your own? Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #99
I used to think that, until I saw what some minor modifications to a drug might cost. Hoyt Mar 2014 #64
Like I said, if the insurance companies have a problem paying.... Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #100
Ok, you can buy the "we cover any and everything" plan, I'll stick with Kaiser. Hoyt Mar 2014 #103
Cool? Not everyone is as healthy as you, I suppose. Don't worry though... Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #104
Hah, your premium will be a lot more than mine. I'll take my generics, Hoyt Mar 2014 #105
It's funny because you actually already help pay for my premiums and deductible. Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #106
Generics, limits on self-refferals, formularies, etc., are not limiting care. Hoyt Mar 2014 #107
Not all medications have generic equivalents. Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #109
If there is no generic or equivalent, you are good. Hoyt Mar 2014 #110
No one is in favor of "taking away your medications" theboss Mar 2014 #111
It surprises me that all Drugs require the approval of the FDA to come to market. dilby Mar 2014 #19
The other side of that is: What happens to research and development if the profit motive is gone? theboss Mar 2014 #25
That's a real issue. MineralMan Mar 2014 #29
Well, a lot of research is federally funded theboss Mar 2014 #31
Most federally funded research, though MineralMan Mar 2014 #37
Actually ... 1StrongBlackMan Mar 2014 #69
Thanks. I'll look into that in more depth. MineralMan Mar 2014 #71
This is a starting point ... 1StrongBlackMan Mar 2014 #94
I have no problem with a company turning profit. dilby Mar 2014 #32
That's not the FDA's job, and they can't actually do that. MineralMan Mar 2014 #27
Thankyou, MM. Was a good read. n/t Whisp Mar 2014 #24
Thanks. I hope it was informative. MineralMan Mar 2014 #28
Highly Recommended! HuckleB Mar 2014 #30
Now I'm blushing... MineralMan Mar 2014 #35
thanks! Voice for Peace Mar 2014 #33
Thank you for the kind words, and thanks to MineralMan Mar 2014 #34
For the curious, muriel volestrangler explained the UK model well here steve2470 Mar 2014 #36
Thank you. I'll head over and read it. MineralMan Mar 2014 #38
. ProSense Mar 2014 #39
Wish I could rec this more than once. MADem Mar 2014 #40
Thanks for the rec. MineralMan Mar 2014 #42
not according to the NIH magical thyme Mar 2014 #43
That's a hospital formulary. MineralMan Mar 2014 #45
your title says 'pharmaceutical formulary' magical thyme Mar 2014 #49
I think I made that pretty clear in the post. MineralMan Mar 2014 #51
it doesn't clarify that insurance company formularies and hospital formularies are not the same magical thyme Mar 2014 #56
It doesn't do a lot of things. It's not a book. MineralMan Mar 2014 #59
a single word change would clarify a *fundamental* point of confusion magical thyme Mar 2014 #61
If you read the first line of the first paragraph, MineralMan Mar 2014 #63
you wrote that they "use formularies." Using is not the same thing as creating. magical thyme Mar 2014 #65
Every insurance company and healthcare system creates its own formulary. MineralMan Mar 2014 #78
my goal was stated in my initial post. magical thyme Mar 2014 #82
I'm sorry you were confused. MineralMan Mar 2014 #84
LOL. Pretty much the best response ever. phleshdef Mar 2014 #85
Thanks. MineralMan Mar 2014 #86
Look, you'll need to use the word F**K a lot more ... JoePhilly Mar 2014 #44
I f**king generally f**king eschew using that f**king word. MineralMan Mar 2014 #47
that, and mention how your drunken bar brawl language geek tragedy Mar 2014 #48
F**Kin A right. JoePhilly Mar 2014 #53
Very informative. bravenak Mar 2014 #55
Thanks for reading it. MineralMan Mar 2014 #57
maybe MOST people want "the latest whiz-bang medication" hfojvt Mar 2014 #58
When I worked in hospital contracting, our theory was "We want to be #2" theboss Mar 2014 #62
And that's your option. MineralMan Mar 2014 #68
I listen recently and found the reason drugs in the US is much Thinkingabout Mar 2014 #67
Good point. MineralMan Mar 2014 #70
Actually, insurers who administer Part D Medicare drug coverage do negotiate drug prices. Hoyt Mar 2014 #72
Very informative bpositive Mar 2014 #73
I appreciate your comment! MineralMan Mar 2014 #75
Great post, Mineral Man. Thanks for putting the recent discussions into much needed context. n/t pnwmom Mar 2014 #76
It simply occurred to me that most people aren't aware MineralMan Mar 2014 #80
It's especially surprising when otherwise smart and informed people aren't aware. pnwmom Mar 2014 #81
There's too much stuff to know. That's the problem. MineralMan Mar 2014 #83
I had a similar job for a time. pnwmom Mar 2014 #87
That's pretty much what I've done all my life. MineralMan Mar 2014 #88
How fun! pnwmom Mar 2014 #89
Los Osos, CA MineralMan Mar 2014 #95
K&R Dr Hobbitstein Mar 2014 #90
Good OP - TBF Mar 2014 #91
Good OP and thread treestar Mar 2014 #92
A great read, MM. longship Mar 2014 #102
Thanks to everyone who read this post. MineralMan Mar 2014 #108

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
3. It certainly is one of the arguments for that.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 02:25 PM
Mar 2014

I presented the argument against it, as well. Right now, the profit motive and patents that expire does get the pharmaceutical companies to continue to do research. All too often, though the new drugs coming from that research are not really better than the older ones. They're just new and still covered by patents, which allow the companies to price them sky-high.

If pharmaceutical companies are socialized or nationalized, some provision for continuing research, including funding for it, will need to be in place. That's a tough nut to crack, I think. Besides, given the current state of the US government, it seems highly unlikely that nationalized or socialized pharmaceutical companies will happen.

So, we have forumularies as a means of attempting to control costs. It's a clumsy system, at best, and causes a lot of heartache and even unnecessary suffering. The appeals process needs to be improved, at a minimum, and the government needs to step in and limit the freedom to control formularies on a provider by provider basis. Those two measures would help. A national standard formulary might be one strategy that could be developed. Insurers would be forced to follow it. However, that wouldn't be a foolproof answer, either, given the political nature of government here.

 

theboss

(10,491 posts)
7. Do we really want Congressional hearings on drug research?
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 02:41 PM
Mar 2014

Some backwoods Senator from Dogpatch would have the power to shut down all drug research because Jesus told him the new birth control patch being tested is going to turn his grandbabies into who-ores.

I lean towards more regulations.

hedgehog

(36,286 posts)
66. I think we would benefit from a government owned corporation that manufactures drugs.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 04:06 PM
Mar 2014

We have the government owned Post Office Service providing competition to UPS, Fed-Ex and the like, and sometimes helping the entire economy by working with private companies. Another example is provided by publicly owned utilities that generally are way cheaper than privately owned utilities.

Exorbitant pricing is no longer limited to brand new or rare drugs, but is even hitting some common generics:

"Prices soar for some generic drugs

The widespread use of generic medications is supposed to save the health care system money, but huge price spikes in certain common, previously low-cost drugs is putting some of that savings in question.

Nosebleed-level price increases of more than 100 percent, 1,000 percent and, in some cases, 6,000 percent and above are making it difficult for pharmacists to fill some prescriptions because insurance companies have been slow to adjust their reimbursements to reflect the price spikes. Large chain pharmacies have felt the pinch, but it's been especially hard on independent pharmacists."

http://www.sfgate.com/health/article/Prices-soar-for-some-generic-drugs-5105538.php

hedgehog

(36,286 posts)
77. It's my impression that much of the research that results in new drugs is actually funded
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 04:36 PM
Mar 2014

by the Federal government through NIH. It'd be nice if those grants came through with a clause giving the investors (us) a piece of the pie!

pnwmom

(108,976 posts)
79. It IS. And you've been reading my mind again! Why should we fund the initial stages of the research
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 04:37 PM
Mar 2014

and they get all the profit?

Auntie Bush

(17,528 posts)
96. And the rest of the world gets the drug cheaper than Americans even though
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 06:06 PM
Mar 2014

we're the ones that really paid for their discovery. Pharmaceutical Co. get help from the gov but WE are the government.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
4. Thanks. I'm afraid it might be too long for many people
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 02:25 PM
Mar 2014

to bother reading, but there's a lot to cover.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
46. Or, something that completely fails to address ...
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:44 PM
Mar 2014

the underlying out-rage.

Those that wish to be informed, will read it; those that wish to be out-raged, will ignore it.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
50. That's always the case, though.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:46 PM
Mar 2014

I'm on DU with the assumption that people want to learn stuff. I don't plan to change that assumption. When I can, I try to help with that. It's up to others to decide whether or not to read what I write.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
93. True ...
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 05:40 PM
Mar 2014

Sorry. I'm a bit cynical of late. But honestly, you are one of the folks that keep me grounded and moving forward.

questionseverything

(9,651 posts)
101. k&r ty for writing this especially
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 06:43 PM
Mar 2014

If we want affordable pharmaceuticals, the place to start is with the pharmaceutical companies. They should not be profit-driven. Perhaps they should be government-owned and controlled. That might limit the number of new medications and research into finding medications to meet unusual needs. That might be the trade-off. I don't know. But, as long as pharmaceutical companies can set the prices of new medications at any level they wish, healthcare systems will use formularies to control costs. They have to, or costs would skyrocket, making healthcare far more costly than it already is.

 

theboss

(10,491 posts)
5. I was going to write something like this
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 02:36 PM
Mar 2014

This was much better than anything I would have come up with. Thanks.

I think one thing that Progressives need to accept is that you can't pass a law against bad weather. There really aren't government "solutions." There are laws that create situations better than the prior situation.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
8. Personally, I want a single-payer system, or
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 02:44 PM
Mar 2014

something like Medicare for All. Medicare currently has room for private insurance companies, which are eager to sell affordable policies to cover the 20% not covered by Medicare. I'm 68 years old, and my total cost for Medicare Part B and my supplemental policy is about $220 per month. For that, I'm pretty much 100% covered for the widest group of issues that I might encounter.

I pay for the Part B coverage through a deduction of about $100 from my Social Security payment each month. If Medicare for all were available, a premium system would have to be in place, probably age-related to cover that 80%, but private insurers could sell policies, as they do for Medicare now, to cover the 20%. Given their eagerness to provide that coverage now, I assume they'd be equally eager to sell such coverage if Medicare for All were available.

I believe that may be where we go in the US, eventually, but that's going to take unstoppable Democratic majorities in both houses of Congress. That's why my slogan is, and will be:

GOTV 2014 and Beyond!

 

theboss

(10,491 posts)
10. I think that is generally where the solution is
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 02:51 PM
Mar 2014

Though I'm dealing with an 88-year-old grandmother now and part of me thinks, "Why is Medicare paying for all this nonsense?" on occasion.

I think there is probably some kind of two or three-tiered system that may work, but I'm not smart enough to do the math.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
13. All this nonsense...
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 02:59 PM
Mar 2014

I hear what you're saying, but I'm not someone who would ration healthcare for aged people. My own parents are 89 years old now, and will soon be 90. My father was on the very edge last year, in the ICU with a DNR, after a serious brain bleed. They actually pulled his breathing tube. About two hours later, he was sitting up in bed wanting to know why he was in the hospital.

Nobody could figure out why he pulled out of that illness, but he's out driving a tractor again on his citrus/avocado farm. So, I won't second guess spending money on our aged folks. I don't mind paying for it. Who knows? I may need similar care one day. I already have a medical power of attorney statement, so I'm not much into heroic measures, but I would like a chance if there is a chance. I've now visited my father twice since that episode. Right now, he's talking with his doctor about a possible hip replacement. I doubt he'll do it, since he is now pretty much against spending time in a hospital, but if he and his doctor decide to go for it, it will be covered.

We can afford to take care of our oldsters, I think. They took care of us, after all.

 

theboss

(10,491 posts)
20. Didn't mean to offend
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:08 PM
Mar 2014

That was probably rather flip. But we are at a point where there are real quality of life discussions taking place. Also, I've dealt with no authorization denials off and on for 15 years and am amazed how easy she can see a doctor about anything. It really blows me away.

My apologies.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
41. No offense taken.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:34 PM
Mar 2014

Really. I know where you're coming from. I don't know whether a hip replacement for my almost 90-year-old father makes any sense at all. If I try to put myself in his situation, I probably wouldn't do it. My guess is that we will end up deciding not to do it, too. However, if he decides to, it will be covered.

For what it's worth, his orthopedic surgeon is hesitant as well to recommend it. Right now, he's considering some other options, which will probably be tried before any decision is made.

In the meantime, my Dad is still climbing up on his tractor. I think he's nuts, but that's who he is. He'll probably drop dead on that tractor one day, and I suppose that would be just fine with him.

hedgehog

(36,286 posts)
60. Does her care improve her quality of life, or just the length of it?
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:54 PM
Mar 2014

What does she think of her care? Each person will have their own standards for when it is time to let go.

6. Great summary and analysis
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 02:38 PM
Mar 2014

I agree with every word. While the health insurance companies are not without guilt here, and often try to steer people away from the more expensive options, even if more effective, the primary offender is the pharmaceutical industry. Just because a condition may be rarer than others, those afflicted should not be financially penalized for the rareness of their illness.

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
12. just make this clear....
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 02:55 PM
Mar 2014

Formulary lists under ACA, Solcialized medicine, NHC systems, Universal Health, Medicare etc......Obama's fault.

Just thought I'd get that out asap and save some time.

yeah, sarcasm

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
17. Well, I think a lot of people are not familiar with
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:05 PM
Mar 2014

formularies or why they exist. I hope I clarified it for them. Often, we misunderstand things and draw the wrong conclusions, based on our misunderstandings.

Of course President Obama has nothing to do with the formularies in use by the healthcare industry. I'm sure he knows they exist, but I doubt he has explored them in much detail. I, on the other hand, am occasionally called on to write about such things in my work. Lately, I've been writing the content for more and more websites connected with healthcare, so I have to learn this stuff to do my job. It's been very interesting.

I have an upcoming website contract for a psychotherapist. I'll be learning many things for that one. It's the best part of what I do.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
18. I know. I knew it was too long when I wrote it,
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:06 PM
Mar 2014

but never mind. If I was getting paid for writing it, I could have written it in a shorter form, but that takes more time than I have available today.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
16. It should not be up to insurance companies to decide which med I need.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:04 PM
Mar 2014

That is the job of my doctor. And if they don't value my doctor's word, then they should take her/him out of network.

It really is that simple.

 

theboss

(10,491 posts)
21. So, they should be forced to pay for anything the doctor wants to give you?
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:09 PM
Mar 2014

Are you willing to up your premiums or co-pays or deductibles for that?

There are drugs that literally cost tens of thousands of dollars.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
98. One of my meds costs 1200 a month.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 06:10 PM
Mar 2014

Another costs 300. Both are absolutely necessary and I have had to deal with an unwilling insurance company even though both are in the formulary.

It is not the job of the insurance company to dictate my medical care. It's their job to cover it. Beyond proof of a medical condition, they should cover whatever my doctor says is necessary.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
22. In an ideal world, you'd be right. But, it's not
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:10 PM
Mar 2014

an ideal world. Doctors are as influenced by pharmaceutical company marketing strategies as the rest of us are. When I see my doctor, if he prescribes a brand name medication for me, I always ask if there's a generic equivalent. So far, there always has been. But, his first thought is to prescribe the latest thing some drug rep told him about. He's a busy guy. He's an excellent diagnostician and a nice person, but I have to keep an eye on his prescribing and ask the question.

Doctors are just human. They don't always consider the cost of things when they write a script. Sometimes, I don't think they even know the cost. They're thinking of other things, most of the time.

So, I hear what you're saying, but I think it doesn't cover the whole situation very well.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
99. Do you trust the doctor at the insurance company more than your own?
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 06:13 PM
Mar 2014

I doubt it. The insurance has a vested interest in not covering medical costs.

My doctor should NEVER dictate what medication I need based on cost. If that is what your doctor does, find a different one. They should decide based on what works best, regardless of expense. The only exception is when the patient is forced to pay out of pocket and cannot afford the best medication.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
64. I used to think that, until I saw what some minor modifications to a drug might cost.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 04:00 PM
Mar 2014

There are drugs out there that cost 5 to ten times a generic, or older patent drug, that do absolutely nothing but make it convenient to take a pill once a day, instead of twice a day. That might make sense if a patient had difficulty taking it twice a day, but patients have to contribute to the good of everyone too.

Worse, the drug companies advertise to patients to get them to demand these newer, more costly, meds from docs who just write the prescription to get them out of the office (sometimes knowing the pharmacy will call and tell them that particular drug is not covered). Or patients pitch a fit if they are prescribed a generic, saying it doesn't work as well as the new drug (even though they would never know the difference if they didn't read the label or talk to some friend who feeds them bull, and yes I know there are some cases where it's legit).

Even though insurance companies are clearly greedy, I think a lot of patients are not doing their part either.

Additionally, what do you think happens when a doctor buys an MRI, or other expensive testing equipment, rather than referring patients to another entity for the test or treatment? Utilization goes up the vast majority of the time.

Even if we had a single payer system, I would expect the plan administrators to impose reasonable limits to keep the overall cost down -- including denying coverage when a doc orders something just because some pretty drug detail person comes by the office peddling the latest thing that is not much better than the older, less costly one.

And yes, I know we need to cut the military budget and increase taxes on wealthy first. But, there are a lot of needs for any money freed up through that besides just health care.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
100. Like I said, if the insurance companies have a problem paying....
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 06:20 PM
Mar 2014

For what the doctor requires, they should remove that doctor from their network. Otherwise, they can shut the fuck up and pay for what they are contractually obligated to pay for. I don't care if another drug might work as well. Stability is an important aspect of maintenance meds.

This is especially true with psychiatric care. That some cheaper drug might work as well is an extremely risky gamble and the only reason why it is an issue is that the insurance companies don't want to pay for expensive medicine.

I don't care about their profit margins at all. At all. The vast majority of their customers do jot require expensive maintenance meds. They can suck it up and absorb the extra cost.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
104. Cool? Not everyone is as healthy as you, I suppose. Don't worry though...
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 07:28 PM
Mar 2014

You'll start to pay your fair share (since you were the one who started talking about the greater good) when we eventually switch to a single payer system.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
105. Hah, your premium will be a lot more than mine. I'll take my generics,
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 07:31 PM
Mar 2014

you can buy the heavily advertised newly designed drugs. Good luck.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
106. It's funny because you actually already help pay for my premiums and deductible.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 07:41 PM
Mar 2014

Much of which is subsidized by the federal taxpayer per the rules of the health care exchange.

It is, after all, about the greater good, right? Or is that only an argument you care about when it means minimizing care?

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
107. Generics, limits on self-refferals, formularies, etc., are not limiting care.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 07:47 PM
Mar 2014

Especially, with a medical loss ratio. Take a look at how Canada, England, etc., handle these things.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
109. Not all medications have generic equivalents.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 08:12 PM
Mar 2014

If you support taking away my medications, which are part of my necessary medical care, then you support limiting my medical care.

 

theboss

(10,491 posts)
111. No one is in favor of "taking away your medications"
Thu Mar 20, 2014, 03:40 PM
Mar 2014

But as nice as it would be for everyone to get the absolute best medical care possible, economically, it can't be done.

I also think people are crazy if they think a move to single payer would eliminate things like Utilization Review. Medicare-for-All would still have someone in an office saying, "Patient A doesn't need to receive this $1500 shot once a week."

dilby

(2,273 posts)
19. It surprises me that all Drugs require the approval of the FDA to come to market.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:08 PM
Mar 2014

This is to protect the patient, but I think the FDA should ask a simple question, "How much are you planning on charging the patient for this drug?" They should be protecting a patients pocket book, let's see how quickly drug prices drop when Pharmaceuticals cannot get FDA approval on their drug because it's deemed over priced.

 

theboss

(10,491 posts)
25. The other side of that is: What happens to research and development if the profit motive is gone?
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:11 PM
Mar 2014

I don't think this is just something to toss aside as a non-issue like some here.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
29. That's a real issue.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:16 PM
Mar 2014

Perhaps the answer is federally funded pharmaceutical research, rather than just leaving it to pharmaceutical companies. That actually used to exist in much larger form than it does today. Very costly, though, which is why getting funding for such research would be very difficult in today's political climate.

Another reason to:

GOTV 2014 and Beyond!

 

theboss

(10,491 posts)
31. Well, a lot of research is federally funded
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:20 PM
Mar 2014

And I think there should be a lot more regulations on what is done with the results of that research.

But I don't necessarily want research brought 'in-house' so to speak. I envision nightmarish Congressional hearings on birth control patches and - I dunno - drugs to treat herpes.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
37. Most federally funded research, though
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:29 PM
Mar 2014

isn't for developing actual pharmaceuticals. It's more pure research than developmental research.

But, I agree with you about the risks of government control over pharmaceutical development. There has to be a hybrid system that will encourage pharmaceutical research without limiting it on political grounds.

Sadly, politics and profits are part of everything. That holds us back.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
69. Actually ...
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 04:11 PM
Mar 2014

that's not exactly true today. I work at a major University with a Medical School and Research Hospital attached to it. The vast majority of federal moneys go toward "translational medicine", i.e., research that can be immediately applied to protocols.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
94. This is a starting point ...
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 05:48 PM
Mar 2014
http://www.ncats.nih.gov/research/cts/ctsa/ctsa.html

When I first started at the University, I was under the impression that research was being done for science's sake. I quickly found out that University-wide and most Research colleges have adopted a translational model because it speeds up the technology and can be spun off into a public/private revenue-centers for the University.

dilby

(2,273 posts)
32. I have no problem with a company turning profit.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:20 PM
Mar 2014

And I understand that to continue research and development they need to turn profit. But lets face it, when was the last time you heard times were slim for the pharmaceutical industry, when did you hear that Pfizer was in trouble of going out of business. There is turning profit and then their fleecing the people because you have what keeps them alive.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
27. That's not the FDA's job, and they can't actually do that.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:13 PM
Mar 2014

If we want to make it their job, we'll have to change the laws. Right now, they're limited to making decisions based on efficacy and safety only. I think a different agency would be needed to do what you want. I want the FDA focused on efficacy and safety.

But, you're right. More regulatory control would be a good idea. In a way, though, the Medicare and VA formularies sort of act as a regulatory price control. I would be in favor of a national, universal formulary, maintained by an agency set up for just that purpose, but that's unlikely to happen until we have some sort of single-payer system.

steve2470

(37,457 posts)
36. For the curious, muriel volestrangler explained the UK model well here
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:27 PM
Mar 2014
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10885614#post1

1. For most medications, there's a standard per prescription charge of £7.85

Various groups get free prescriptions, such as children, over 60s, pregnant women, and people on benefits. If you're getting a lot of prescriptions, you can pay for a period for all of them.

http://www.nhs.uk/nhsengland/Healthcosts/pages/Prescriptioncosts.aspx

The controversy comes in because some medications are not covered by the NHS. NICE,the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, evaluates treatments such as drugs, and decides if they are effective enough for a type of treatment - an evaluation which considers the price to the NHS as well as the clinical effectiveness (and can also mean a drug is approved for some circumstances, but not others - it might be accepted as effective for one type of cancer, but still thought unproven for another, and so restricted to the first).

http://www.nice.org.uk/page.aspx?o=AboutGuidance

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
39. .
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:33 PM
Mar 2014

"Here in the US, pretty much every health insurance company and even government healthcare, like Medicare, use forumularies to deal with pharmaceutical products. Even in government-run single-payer healthcare systems, formularies are also in place. In each of those formularies, pharmaceuticals are listed in multiple groups."

Thanks, Obama!

MADem

(135,425 posts)
40. Wish I could rec this more than once.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:34 PM
Mar 2014

This is good information for people who don't yet understand quite how/why the system works as it does, and who put the blame for shortfalls in the wrong place. Well done.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
43. not according to the NIH
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:40 PM
Mar 2014
"...the most important purpose of a hospital formulary: listing the drugs of choice, as determined by their clinical efficacy and their relative safety, including adverse drug reactions, side effects, interactions, the potential for errors, and the risk of patient harm.

...Ideally, a carefully selected formulary guides clinicians in choosing the safest, most effective agents for treating specific medical problems."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730104/

Note that it does not include "Insurance Companies." In fact, it doesn't even mention insurance companies.

So they may apply some different definition, based on cost, but that is not what a formulary is intended to be.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
45. That's a hospital formulary.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:43 PM
Mar 2014

I'm talking about formularies used by insurance companies and healthcare systems. Very different thing.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
49. your title says 'pharmaceutical formulary'
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:46 PM
Mar 2014

maybe you should edit the title to read "insurance company formulary."

Because health insurance companies are parasites, not providers. They 'borrowed' the language from providers and twisted the definition to their own purposes.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
51. I think I made that pretty clear in the post.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:47 PM
Mar 2014

So, I probably won't go back and edit. But thanks for your advice.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
56. it doesn't clarify that insurance company formularies and hospital formularies are not the same
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:52 PM
Mar 2014

If you read the NIH link I provided, you'll find that the article is largely about concerns over people's misconceptions about why hospital formularies exist.

Abuse of the terminology has probably contributed to, if not caused, the confusion.

But that's ok. I'll clarify it myself elsewhere. I'm not you, so likely won't get the high read counts, but at least some people will see it.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
59. It doesn't do a lot of things. It's not a book.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:54 PM
Mar 2014

It's a brief explanation of how formularies are used by insurance companies and healthcare systems.

I only write books if I have a contract for one.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
61. a single word change would clarify a *fundamental* point of confusion
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:56 PM
Mar 2014

I'm taking your latest reply as confirmation that your intent is not to enlighten but to obfuscate and confuse. Hey, whatever. I've already posted my own thread on the subject.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
63. If you read the first line of the first paragraph,
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:57 PM
Mar 2014

you'll see that I clearly defined what formularies I was discussing.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
65. you wrote that they "use formularies." Using is not the same thing as creating.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 04:03 PM
Mar 2014

Without confirming the source of the formularies they are using, you are leaving it open for them to be confused with hospital formularies.

And since your title is re: "pharmaceutical formularies," which are the hospital's pharmaceutical depts., the implication is that insurance companies and medicare use the pharmaceutical formularies, not their own formularies.

Again, it doesn't take a novel. Aasingle word change in the title would make it clear. Since you aren't willing to make a single word change, even though you have devoted now multiple replies to my posts, your intent continues to appear to be to obfuscate and confuse.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
78. Every insurance company and healthcare system creates its own formulary.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 04:37 PM
Mar 2014

All deal with pharmaceuticals, so are thus "pharmaceutical formularies." You're nit-picking at the wrong level, here. They create them and use them for whatever purposes they create them.

They are, indeed, pharmaceutical formularies. They are selected lists of covered pharmaceuticals and their applications. I'm not sure what your goal is here in this thread, but you are incorrect in what you are saying. Sorry.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
82. my goal was stated in my initial post.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 04:42 PM
Mar 2014

I found the use of "pharmaceutical formulary" in the title confusing.

I find it amazing that you are willing to continue a discussion through post after post rather than a one-word edit that would not detract from, but would clarify for people outside the health care industry.

But hey, whatever. Nothing to apologize for. I made my clarification elsewhere. What you call nit-picking, I call clarifying. Good communications are clear, imho. When I see something that can, imo, be misunderstood and misleading, I seek to clarify. That is all.

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
44. Look, you'll need to use the word F**K a lot more ...
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:40 PM
Mar 2014

... if you want your rec numbers to really POP!

Other than that, great post.

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
58. maybe MOST people want "the latest whiz-bang medication"
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:53 PM
Mar 2014

but I am not one of them.

I like to use as little medication as possible.

I ignored my doctor's prescription and went with an OTC generic instead.

Better safe than experimental.

 

theboss

(10,491 posts)
62. When I worked in hospital contracting, our theory was "We want to be #2"
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:57 PM
Mar 2014

Let me explain. We were a community hospital, not a research facility. So, our thought was let Johns Hopkins or The Cleveland Clinic bring the newest, bestest, brilliantest product into their hospital and figure out how it works. Once they figure it out, we want to be next with it.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
68. And that's your option.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 04:10 PM
Mar 2014

There are many prescription medications, however, for which there is no OTC generic equivalent. I can think of two, right now. I take two medications to control my blood pressure. Neither are available OTC. Both are generics and cost me almost nothing. They work great, have no side effects that I can notice, and do what they were prescribed for.

One is a calcium channel blocker, and the other is a beta blocker. I take very low doses of each, and together, they have completely normalized my BP.

If you have found an OTC medication that does what you need, that's great. However, that isn't possible for everyone. That's why we have doctors and prescription medication. It's the doctor's job to determine which medication you need. I don't have the expertise to self-prescribe. I doubt you have the expertise to prescribe for me, either. That's why I visit my doctor periodically.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
67. I listen recently and found the reason drugs in the US is much
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 04:08 PM
Mar 2014

Higher because the US does not negotiate prices as other countries, ergo the pharmacies charge as much as they can get away with charging. This should be stopped. On Medicare Part D prices was not negotiated as was the case with the VA did. They talk about Medicare going broke but do not change the process while cramming lobby funds in their pockets.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
72. Actually, insurers who administer Part D Medicare drug coverage do negotiate drug prices.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 04:29 PM
Mar 2014

The traditional Medicare program cannot, but the Part D plans and Medicare Advantage Plans can, and do.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
80. It simply occurred to me that most people aren't aware
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 04:38 PM
Mar 2014

of how formularies are used by these insurance companies and healthcare systems, so I thought I'd write up something. It's nice that so many people have found it useful.

pnwmom

(108,976 posts)
81. It's especially surprising when otherwise smart and informed people aren't aware.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 04:39 PM
Mar 2014

Hopefully you've filled an important information gap here.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
83. There's too much stuff to know. That's the problem.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 04:46 PM
Mar 2014

Not everyone investigates everything. That would be impossible. As it happens, my work requires me to learn about lots and lots of different fields. I like that very much, and enjoy the learning more than the work. I had to research insurance companies' use of pharmaceutical formularies for a website I wrote. It was fascinating. Lots of what I write about comes from my fascination with learning new things. That's why I'm in the business I'm in, really.

Writing the content for random websites means that I have to brief myself on many different industries. It's great fun. My next contract is for a website for a scrap metal recycler. For that one, I have to get a fairly good understanding of metallurgy of alloys. I studied that way back in college a million years ago in one class, but now I need to refresh and build on what I learned then. Awesome! I get paid to learn stuff.

Of course, then I have to do the writing, but that's not so bad, either.

pnwmom

(108,976 posts)
87. I had a similar job for a time.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 04:50 PM
Mar 2014

I never knew whether I'd be having to learn about baseball, colleges, or colostomy bags. (And at my young age then, some of that was pretty shocking!)

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
88. That's pretty much what I've done all my life.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 04:59 PM
Mar 2014

I really never stopped being a student. I just found a way to get paid for learning stuff. It's been great, although now that I'm past retirement age and still working, the retrospective view isn't quite as rosy.

Still, I can still do what I've been doing, and plan to keep right on.

My favorite thing: I've always been interested in geology and minerals. So, at one point, I started a fairly serious mineral collection. As it turned out, I decided to go into business selling minerals to collectors. I specialized in rare mineral species, and ended up putting myself through a graduate level equivalent education in mineralogy so I could talk sensibly to my mineralogist customers. That was huge fun. I closed that business down a few years ago, though, but it was one of my favorite ventures. While I was in business, I even opened a small mineral museum in the California town I lived in and pretty much had a constantly changing display, using my specimen stock. All the local schools came to it on field trips and I got to do guided tours. I even had a bank of stereo microscopes and an automated video microscopy system set up and running a video tour of microminerals. Eventually, I created a self-guided tour that used Walkman cassette players, so individuals could get the guided tour without me having to leave my other work.

It's been a great life! And on it goes...

pnwmom

(108,976 posts)
89. How fun!
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 05:04 PM
Mar 2014

My father-in-law was a geological engineer, so throughout my married life I've been hearing about minerals through him and then my husband.

Where was the museum?

TBF

(32,047 posts)
91. Good OP -
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 05:28 PM
Mar 2014

lots of great info in here.

I have one chronic illness (which my father also has) and with my specialist decided on new, ground-breaking medicine. It is working great for me & I pay the premium co-pay in order to take it. Part of my decision had to do with watching my dad on the older meds & the accompanying side effects. So, that is a pretty informed decision.

I have a couple of other lesser conditions which require meds and for those I am fine with the generics (one I can get 90 days for $10 and one has become free! Maybe that's an error that it's free but I'm not arguing).

So, we each have choices to make with the help of our medical professionals.

My goal is that we get to the point where EVERYBODY has health care so they are able to make these choices with their doctors. It seems to be a luxury to even be in the position to make choices currently.

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