Affordable Health Care - Just Stop.

[Aerows]

Can people that live in countries where they have actually never had to worry for a second in their lives about getting health care treatment stop lecturing people that live in US?

I'm serious. I see people from Canada and Australia lecturing people about how good the ACA is when they themselves will never have the problem of being homeless, bankrupt or dead because they can't afford health care.

That shit happens in the US. 40,000 people die per year due to lack of health care. If you live in a country that has either single payer or you have universal health care, don't comment on the American health care system. We get repeatedly screwed by it, and support for Obama does not equal deriding and screaming to high heaven about the fucked up system we live under.

You can support Obama and live in another country. You can criticize the American health care system vociferously if you live under it while still supporting the president. But you can't live under another, far more humane system than we do and tell us how much we should love the bullshit we put up with just because you support Obama.

[Whisp]

1. What kind of lectures did you get, Aerows?

Certainly not from me. I sympathize with your situation and I told you that. I wish I could do something, but I can't. That's not lecturing and good luck trying to ban people from other countries speaking about certain subjects.

[Aerows]

3. It isn't about banning

It is about realizing that people that don't live under the health care system that we live under do not have a clue about what we face.

It's like lecturing someone on the benefits of walking to somebody that has no legs, or proselytizing the wonders of having a home where you can grow a garden to someone that is homeless.

To be frank, it's cruel. Passing judgment on people because they are frustrated with the health care system JUST BECAUSE Obama passed the ACA, and for no other reason because it doesn't affect you one way or the other, is ludicrous. You don't think most of us would give our eye teeth to have a system like that? Yet we are repeatedly told to STFU because "Obama!".

[Whisp]

5. You are accusing me of this, aren't you?

That sympathizing with you isn't enough, I got to call Obama a piece of shit used car salesman, then you will be happy?

No sale.

[Aerows]

7. You were in the thread

Last edited Wed Mar 19, 2014, 09:31 PM - Edit history (1)

along with a bunch of other people that do not live in the US, but live in countries with universal health care, chiming in on how thankful we should be that the Affordable Insurance Act was passed. What a glorious day it is for people to get health insurance (but fuck them if they need actual health CARE).

It pisses me off to no end to see people that will never in their lives know the agony of choosing between health care to save their lives or the lives of their loved ones sit and pass judgment on those that will.

[Whisp]

143. what thread, can you give me a link? n/t

[Agschmid]

149. Here....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4675658

[Whisp]

161. ''We voted for something better, but we were sold out.'' nt

That is the post I was replying to. That post is bullshit shit shit and there are plenty of people here that agree with me.

[Aerows]

303. We were sold out

I will not retract that statement, and I am not alone in it. If getting something better means I have to complain about it, I'm going to complain. That's how it works. Nothing changes if people just go "that's the best we can do, and that's the way it is."

[sabrina 1]

253. Having been in exactly that position, trying to save someone's life who could not afford HC

so I am amazed when I see ANYONE, Americans who can afford it, and people from other countries daring to tell Americans who have to struggle to find ways to stay ALIVE, how lucky they are. But MOST people from Canda and elsewhere do NOT have the gall to make such ridiculous statements.

It isn't the country, its the selfish, arrogant, segment of all populations that have that attitude.

I have friends in Canada eg, who are appalled at what Americans are subjected regarding their HC.

Just wanted to say that those you are talking about don't represent their respective countries, fortunately.

[Aerows]

254. I have Canadian friends, too

and they are also appalled by the system under which we live. I'm not talking about folks from other countries, wholesale.

I'm talking about the handful of them that attack anyone and everyone on DU if they have a discouraging word that might be in some way linked to President Obama. It's to the point where it is ridiculous. That's why I made the post - not to slight our foreign brothers and sisters who post here in good faith. I'm talking about the folks that make it their mission to insult, ridicule and belittle those that dare to complain about US policies.

[sabrina 1]

255. I know, and I could not agree more with you, Aerows. I wonder what their purpose is? I can't imagine

being on a foreign forum where they are discussing some real problems facing the people there, and telling them to stfu and how lucky they are. I would expect to be kicked off that site frankly. But then I would have not the gall or lack of decency to do that.

[Aerows]

258. This really hit close to home for me

But it's other things, too. We should just STFU about spying. We should just STFU about health care problems in our country. We should just STFU and not discuss legitimate issues we have with our government.

Is this a political forum or not?

I'm rather tired of seeing the same bunch of people that do not live here come in and bash Americans that are discussing issues and seeking solutions to problems in our nation just because "Obama". I have never in my life been so enamored of a politician that I saw them as something other than what they are - human beings. Imperfect, fallible human beings. And it's okay to point out when a policy is fallible.

[sabrina 1]

261. Excellent post, I couldn't agree more, again. Sick to death of the attempt to silence people here on

issues like the Massive Spying, the constant violations of our rights, and rather than have any intelligent discussion, the minute someone even raises an issue anymore, immediately it's 'Obama'. Everything is about Obama, to THEM. It's simply inconceivable for them, or it's just a tactic, that for most Americans the President whoever it may be, is just not their primary focus in life. Their parents, children, LIVES which imho, are AS IMPORTANT as any president, are their concerns.

I find any kind of adulation creepy and dangerous to democracy. All politicians are to me are the people we gave a job to, because we all can't do it, a job they asked for. When they do it well, let them know, when they don't we most definitely must let them know.

I KNOW you are not the only one with these sentiments, there are LOTS of DUers who are sick and tired of what passes for political discussion here and are not fond of the people, the few, from other countries who have the gall to slam Democrats on this forum in this country for standing up for THIS COUNTRY.

Thanks for saying it and I back you 100%.

Maybe it's time for the admiins to clarify what this forum is supposed to be. Is it meant to be only a cheerleading, online campaign forum, or is it about ISSUES. Because if politics ISN'T about issues, what is it about? A team sport where the country takes second place?

No point wasting time on a forum where people have to walk on eggshells in order to support DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES and a whole lot of people have already made their decisions about that.

[Aerows]

267. Thanks for that sabrina 1

Politics is about policies, or at least it should be. Not personalities and "Go Team!".

[Skidmore]

256. This American is grateful for ACA.

My husband has wored a physically demanding job so we could hold onto health insurancke. I am a cancer survivor who lost my job and could not get insured afterward on my own. I have friends in similar circumstances who are now able to get badly needed health care denied to them before.

I never expected single payer to pass. I view ACA as a starting point on which to build. Until that happens, I remain grateful for the first step and will fight fo gain the steps to follow. Frankly, I consider some who rage so vociferously to be politically naive when it comes to fashioning policy while being faced with strong opposition.

This American supports the progress made thus far and will continue to support progress to come.

[Aerows]

259. You have every right to your opinion on the ACA

and I'm glad that it has had a positive affect for you.

[sabrina 1]

264. Do you agree that for others, it is not working and that they too have a right to state

their opinions?

[Skidmore]

266. Please go back and read what I wrote for content

because I already essentially stated my assessment and my future intentions.

[sabrina 1]

268. I did. It doesn't address my question which I thought was simple enough.

Never mind, no one in this democracy needs permission to voice their opinions on policies, you, me or anyone else. But lately here on DU it appears some don't seem to understand that.

This legislation will work for some, it won't work for a whole lot of others. All of the reasons for this were expressed BEFORE it passed. We lost on all the important issues. Mainly the one thing that would have helped so many people, the PO and just because it passed doesn't mean people who were opposed to any bill without a PO, suddenly changed their minds.

I'm happy for any person who benefits from the bill. Not so happy for all those who will not.

[Skidmore]

272. Sabrina, people need to stop thinking of ACA

as the end game and organize based upon an agreed set of principles and goals to work together instead of sniping into the intertubes. Insisting that someone agree with you all of the time is counterproductive. We all need to work together. I have an issue or two that I don't exactly agree with you on but that doesn't mean that we are far removed on what we want for the nation. It is a valuable resource to be sble to entertain other points of view.

[Aerows]

323. Telling people what they need to stop thinking?

Wow. Fascinating. That is the hue and cry that was raised in this thread when I pleaded for more politeness. I was telling people what they "needed to think".

Nope, no hypocrisy there.

[Skidmore]

378. First, l wasn't addressing you. Second, you

are way off base. Third, try something besides stirring the honeypot for a change. Lastly, I am just as entitled to express an opinion as you and I was not telling anyone to stop thinking in the manner in which you are implying. I was suggesting an alternative view to be entertained by anyone who wishes to. Sabrina and I were having a civil discussion. Now tell me more about this politeness of which you speak because you certainly are not demonstrating it now.

[Aerows]

379. Stirring the honeypot?

Can you explain what you mean by that, because the usage of that terminology has been historically different.

I'm being polite and asking you what you mean instead of leaping to conclusions. It's what people typically do when attempting to hear what people mean.

Furthermore, I figured since this is a message board, I could post a message and ask a question and offer comments on other people's comments since that seems to be (incorrectly) what many people have gathered from my post.

[Skidmore]

380. In this locale, it is a colloquialism which means creating turmoil or a stink.

I don't think the tone or tenor of the comment you made that I responded to was polite, nor did it reflect that you had actually read my post to Sabrina with any thought or comprehension. Instead, you elected to jump on my case for something that I did not say. This is a message board and you can ask or say anything you want. Perhaps it would help if you read your commments for tone before you hit the post button.

Now that you've toned it down a bit, please consider how you sound to others. I'm just sick of being constantly slammed and seeing others denigrated for trying to express an opinion. I rarely aggressively stand up for myself, but I am doing so now. When someone does not agree with you on all points, it is okay. It is not the end of the world and that does not make the person a mortal enemy.

[sabrina 1]

377. I agree but the problem seems to be that we were organized and did have a set of principles we

worked on together. I don't know anyone who was under the illusion that we could get Single Payer right off the bat. But most of us DID think a PO was more than possible and we were encouraged to think that. I don't want to go back and re-argue all that happened, it's done and no use talking about it all over again. But it was a chance in a lifetime to move closer to a humane HC system at least comparable to what other developed nations take for granted.

The sense of disappointment was real. Trying to slap down people who put so much work and effort, time and energy into supporting those we thought had the power to get it done, won't help unite people. At least acknowledging that they had every right to feel betrayed and used would be a gesture to help begin to reorganize and then perhaps, instead of attacking anyone who is being honest about their feelings, explain to them how the ACA could be a stepping stone towards Single Payer.

But what happens is, no one dares to question without risking all out attacks, so many just keep it to themselves. Perhaps that caused the impression that they had 'come around' and it's a surprise to find out that they had not.

This issue is way, way beyond politics. It isn't about Obama, or any individual politician, it's about people's lives and I can't THINK of a more important issue than that.

Anyhow, thanks for your civil comment, that is how people should discuss this issue and perhaps both sides could find agreement on certain points and then get past any sense of anger that they are not being heard.

[bvar22]

18. Telling someone

...that he or she should be happy to settle for Far Less than YOU take for granted every day
IS kinda pompous....
doan cha think?

It might not be so bad,
except that it IS a Matter of Life & Death for us,
not so much for you.
You have No Skin in this game.

[Whisp]

20. I said no such fucking thing, buster. n/t

[bvar22]

38. You haven't ever attacked Democrats...

...who have expressed their dissatisfaction with the protection of the Private For Profit Health Insurance Industry that was designed into the ACA by the Centrist "3rd Way" Democrats?
Really?

I had no idea that you weren't an American citizen OR a Democrat,
and had none of your skin or your children's skin in this game until the post above,
but that does explain your...... "detachment".

[Whisp]

42. detachment, schmatachment

i give a flying shit of your judgement of me.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

131. Don't engage these people, Whisp

It's not worth it. They're simply here to vomit all over Democrats, both those in the party and the party electeds. They really belong in revleft.com, but like most trolls, crave attention, so come to the D.U. to spew their hatred.

You'd do much better getting involved in your local community Democratic parties and campaigns.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Marr]

140. Yeah, I believe that's what the OP is suggesting, Conservative.

If you get free healthcare in your country, maybe you should just refrain from lecturing people don't have anything like that about how grateful they ought to be.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

199. Oh, that's right. I did completely forget to add that one other point for Whisp

"Completely lying their extremist asses off about what other people are 'lecturing'."

Good catch. Thanks for the reminder.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[HangOnKids]

204. You get chastised and think it is a compliment?

HILARIOUS!!!!!!!!!!

[Aerows]

346. "Completely lying their extremist asses off"

Uh, are you actually saying that the US health care system is a ridiculous and extremist topic for American citizens to discuss?

Who is eager to shut down conversation now? *point of my post

[Aerows]

263. That is exactly what I am suggesting

Stop telling us how thankful we should be.

[bvar22]

231. Thats the problem, CD. "They" are NOT Democrats.

People who live in foreign countries are NOT Democrats.
They don't vote for Democrats.
They don't GOTV for Democrats.
They don't walk their neighborhoods for Democrats.
They don't have to live with the consequences of Republican-Lite Policy.

THEY are the ones coming to DU to "vomit" on loyal Democrats who actually DO the above things.

[Aerows]

260. Bingo

It's bizarre.

[bvar22]

265. ROFL!!!

ConservativeDemocrat said:
[font size=3]"You'd do much better getting involved in your local community Democratic parties and campaigns."[/font]

Ahhh....we ARE talking about people who do NOT live in the United States.
They do NOT have "local community Democratic parties and campaigns".


Please tell us more about this "Reality Based Community" in which you claim to live,
where the local Democratic Party has an office and campaigns in AUSTRALIA.

[sabrina 1]

269. Still attacking Democrats on DU I see. Btw, what is revleft.com?

[Capt. Obvious]

295. Should he get involved in the local Democratic community of Toronto?

[Aerows]

301. Maybe the local Democratic community of Sydney n/t

[Capt. Obvious]

302. I can't keep up with the countries

[quakerboy]

174. Ya know

Its pretty clear that you couldn't give two shits about those of us here in the states, so why anyone would expect you to care about our judgement of anything, I dont understand.

[Whisp]

176. yah sure. you win, I'm Hitler. n/t

[laundry_queen]

182. That is pretty much the most colossal leap I've ever seen here on DU. nt

[Aerows]

81. Some of the strongest

Obama advocates don't even live here. I'm glad they support the President, but it's kind of silly when they criticize people that actually live under the government of the US and have to contend with our ridiculous "health care" system about how lucky we should feel to have the ACA.

At least I have a point when I criticize policies that have been put into place, because I vote here and they affect me. When you live in another country and bash people that DO live here and are affected by decisions made because they don't support President Obama's every move, it's rather ludicrous.

[Capt. Obvious]

91. I'd even go so far as to say

that some of his strongest advocates that don't even live here aren't really here for political discussion of any sort.

[Aerows]

93. They aren't

I'm not sure what their purpose is.

[Capt. Obvious]

94. That description

I also disagree with.

[Aerows]

96. You are correct

I edited my post accordingly. I think we both have interesting suspicions as to why they are ready and willing to back anything the government supports.

[Union Scribe]

206. I didn't even realize that.

This thread has been very illuminating, to say the least. It gives a whole new level to the gall it takes to insist we not criticize our leaders.

[Aerows]

246. It really does

And I've had enough of it, to be honest. If it hadn't been shoved repeatedly in my face to the point where I couldn't just grin and bear it, I never would have made this post.

[Agschmid]

134. +1

[Cali_Democrat]

6. The notion that Canadians and Australians don't know what we face is complete and utter bullshit

Many are aware of how our health care system functions, especially those on DU who are knowledgeable about the subject.

Now you want to take shots at foreigners who post on DU?

It would be wise for us to take advice from people who live in countries with properly functioning health care systems, yet you want to attack them.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

This post is extremely xenophobic.

[Aerows]

8. I'm sure you have great health insurance

and calling me xenophobic because I point out the disconnect between people that have universal health care and people in the US ... well, good luck. I love my brothers and sisters around the world just as much as those in the US. I just don't think I'm qualified to tell them what policies they should or should not support in their own countries. I certainly don't think I'm qualified to talk about issues in their health care system because ours in the US sucks ass.

I certainly don't think I'm qualified to discuss them simply on the basis of love for one of their politicians. And that's what 90% of this is. It's great because "Obama". It's awful because it is "anti-Obama" or slights him in some way.

That's not productive. Hero worship doesn't get things done.

[Cali_Democrat]

10. "I'm sure you have great health insurance"

WTF? You don't know what kind of insurance I have.

You're also trying justify your xenophobia to me by referring to certain folks as hero worshipers.

I don't even know why I'm replying to you.

What a waste of time.

[Andy823]

64. Yes we need to fix some things

What we have now is a foundation to build on, a real universal health care system. I think that getting ideas on how to do that, from those who have such a system already, could be very helpful.

While the ACA may not be perfect it has helped million get a chance to actually get medical help that they may need now or in the future. If we can get congress to act on fixing the things we think need to be fixed, it will help build on the foundation we now have. You can't build an in entire universal health care system over night, it will take time, and a congress that will work with the president, and with future presidents to make the needed changes.

Most of what I see these days from those who are mad at the president seem to be directing their anger in the wrong places. They need to complain to their representatives in congress, they need to talk with their state insurance commissioners and they need to tell their insurance providers how they about their issues. The only way we can change things is through congress, the president can not change things all on his own. Until we get rid of the republicans who are fighting the ACA tooth and nail to prevent the people from getting the health care they need, we can not make things change.

If we can make some gains in congress this year, and again in 2016, along with a democrat in the WH who will continue to build on what we have now, things will change, it's just going to take time.

[arthritisR_US]

104. +100! nt

[Cali_Democrat]

141. Agree!! Check this out

I'd call this a foundation for universal health care.

The ACA makes it easier for states to setup single payer systems:

http://www.occupydemocrats.com/vermont-makes-promise-people-video/

[Bettie]

230. This exactly

What we have with the ACA is a start.

It isn't what I wanted to see, not even close, but it still moves us in the right direction.

And, to be clear, I am a US citizen, living in the US, though we get health ins. through my husband's work at this time (which may negate my being allowed to have an opinion on this).

I would love to see single payer and I feel that the Dems (including the president) had no backbone on the issue and gave in too quickly.

However, we cannot change that which has already happened, so we have the ACA, now we need to work to make it better, to make it work for more of us.

[bvar22]

236. You obviously haven't noticed, but the ACA is NOT a step toward Single Payer.

It IS a giant LEAP toward the Privatization of access to Health Care in America.
By LAW, every American citizen is required to BUY Health "Insurance" from For Profit Corporations.
We are going to be STUCK with this for a LONG time.

Our Public Treasury has NOW been opened to these vultures to the tune of about $100BILLION dollars/year.
That makes the $4 Billion/year going to the Oil Corps look like chump change.
.
.
but what the hell,
Wall Street got their Trillion Dollars,
why not another TRILLION for their incestuous 1st Cousin...The Health Insurance Industry.

[VanillaRhapsody]

58. and how about those that live in Red States blaming Obama for the lack of Medicaid expansion

in their Red state? What about those false criticisms....what are you going to say about that?

[ohheckyeah]

181. If that was directed at me,

Medicaid expansion wouldn't have helped.

[VanillaRhapsody]

191. How was it directed at you?

guilty conscience?

AND please explain this ridiculous statement....

[ohheckyeah]

192. I said IF....

you said something to me in another thread asking me if I was from a red state and I replied it was a purple state. Expanded Medicaid wouldn't help me...our income is too high.

[VanillaRhapsody]

67. but when they come to bash Pres. Obama....you are all FOR that "disconnect" huh? Bet you don't

even see the hypocrisy!

[Number23]

79. Nailed it

[ohheckyeah]

179. Knowing how it works and living with how it works

(or doesn't work) are two entirely different things.

[Aerows]

305. Precisely n/t

[malokvale77]

113. Yes...

But, because Obama, STFU. That is what they are saying. WTF. And why the hell do they even care? They have what we don't.

But you know they are just dying to get here, LOL.

[Aerows]

126. That is all that it amounts to

Because "Obama". You are not allowed to criticize any damn thing that happens in the US while Obama is President.

[Marr]

128. You offered casual dismissals, IIRC.

Every bit as obnoxious.

[Whisp]

135. o right, just because you say so.

I expect a link for this 'casual dismissal' - which is fucking bullshit because I haven't for one second felt 'casual' about someone worried about their health and their family's health.

What you interpreted as a dismissal is probably some snark reponse to a post that sounded like it came from a Repug still pulling that lever to repeal ACA for the 49th time.

but go ahead an accuse me of, o I don't know, ... how about Beastiality? That sounds good. Don't have to link or anything, just say it, go on.

lordy.

[Marr]

146. Oh, please-- would you need a link if I said the sky was blue, too?

You've been all over ACA threads for years now, attacking critics. Are you really going to pretend that isn't the case?

I'm not going to waste ten seconds giving you a link to something you've posted a thousand times.

[Whisp]

157. When lies and bullshit stand like they are gospel truths

I get in the mix, sure. Why the hell shouldn't I when I see all that misinformation and distortion that the repugs use, get used Here of all places.

So many LIES proven false over the years - but the team still has their fingers crossed that one of those lies will become the accepted as truth. The Cat Food commission frenzy is a dead story so the team is agitated. Agitating for the next meal of that kind of capnip that had many in ecstatic climaxes at the idea that Obama would starve old people and Like It!. good lawd.

[Marr]

166. Blah, blah, blah. /nt

[Whisp]

170. That means you are done - you don't have anything so you blah blah.

I was about finished with you as well.

[HangOnKids]

202. Good On You Marr

You've done a great job pointing out the hyperbole and the crap.

[Aerows]

321. If someone breathes wrong with a criticism of Obama

The very people I refer to are *RIGHT* there, bashing that person, bashing their character, deriding them, etc.

The damn surveillance posts tell you that.

[bluestate10]

2. I can't follow your thinking. Why not focus on what it takes to fix

our system instead of swinging at Canadians and others that are lucky enough to be citizens of their countries?

[Aerows]

4. Sure you can

People that don't deal with a system, but tell others that the new system is just great because "Obama" and they don't live under it don't have any skin in the game.

It isn't grounded in the reality that far too many Americans face.

[Rex]

127. I get it.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

28. I don't think your system is fixable; I think it needs replacing.

I'm very sceptical that any system based around people relying on private healthcare insurance for their healthcare, rather than some form of state funding, can produce decent outcomes.

[Skittles]

56. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT

[Aerows]

173. It isn't

as long as it is all about profit, we are screwed.

[Skittles]

178. CORRECT

[zeemike]

70. I don't think we should try to fix it or replace it.

I think we should create something new out of something old...simply by lowering the age for Medicare to 25 and allow anyone who wants to to buy into it...problem solved for several problems...the younger people in Medicare would make it more solvent and it would provide a competitor to the insurance industry...which I would guess piss them off.

Let the ACA stand on it's own, if it fails it failles but provide an alternative for people if we can't have single payer for all.

[Aerows]

352. That is actually a far better idea

Let's create something new, and lowering Medicare to 25 would be an excellent start.

[Rilgin]

232. Metaphor

This is the right answer IMO. We need to replace our current hodge podge private profit driven health care system in its entirety (ACA included) with a modern system.

Those of us unhappy with Obama believe that is what 2009 represented, our best chance in a generation to modernize our health care system. Instead, this opportunity was squandered and given away in private meetings with Big Pharma and Big Hospitals and Big Insurance and a proven wrong theory of carrot driven bi-partisanship. I wonder what would have happened if Obama had chosen the other path of directly mobilizing public sentiment (at that time he could have brought a million people to the Mall) to directly and publicly fight these entities and the congressional lackeys who would have fought for the status quo. We have some who assert as "fact" rather than "opinion" that it would have been impossible to get more than the ACA. This is clearly true with some congress critters but I really wonder what a real political fight would have given us. Again, some of us had the same opinion at the time that it was a "fact" that no matter what he did the concept of bi-partisan action was a pipedream.

Last a metaphor.

Those who constantly provide an opinion (again not fact as supporters sometimes assert) that the ACA (institutionalizing insurance companies) is a step in the right direction in getting to single player (getting rid of Insurance Companies) is like someone in the middle of the Country who wants to get to Canada (chosen deliberately) saying the best way to get there is to first drive towards Texas (chosen deliberately) but pointing out to the rest of us who are unhappy that they are driving slower than the right wing uncle in the back seat wants to.

[Orsino]

234. Oh, it could be fixed very easily.

It just won't be, and if that's what you meant, I agree completely.

[sabrina 1]

262. You are correct. It is hopelessly broken. Sad thing is we have far too many people supporting a

broken system for one reason or the other.

[Skidmore]

278. My question whether you have an idea of how our political system actually works

from the ground up.

[Aerows]

284. Hey, at least that person recognizes that our system is broken. n/t

[Skidmore]

291. I take offense at that.

We get out of our system what we put into it. People sitting on votes are not contributing to any type of meaningful system any more than those who would seek to buy legislators. It is up to us to repair the system and to make certain it works. You are entirely out of line with the accusation.

[Aerows]

293. "People sitting on votes"

What people are you referring to, Skidmore?

[Skidmore]

304. Those who sat out the last election to teach a lesson.

Sitting out this election will not get us any closer to doing the work of the nation. And that happened.

[Aerows]

306. Are you directly accusing me of doing so?

Because that looks like what you are doing.

[Skidmore]

307. No, I am not.

I'm pointing to a problem on the left. I don't plan on dealing with another Teabagger congress or Ron Paul in the WH just because people refuse to look forward and build something new. I think too many become mired in this constant negativity and the drumbeat drowns out the constructive dialogue and the building of consensus.

[Aerows]

313. Seemed like you were

I wasn't cheerful enough to suit you, so I'm going to stay home and not vote. Yep, because everyone on a political forum is disinterested enough in politics that they don't vote.

I'm assuming that people that regularly attend a forum on caring for eggplants don't have an eggplant garden and have no intentions of having an eggplant garden. Because, you know, people are like that. They hang out in places where they don't have any interest. I haven't hung out at the eggplant forum recently since I have no desire to grow or eat one, but I'll get right on that.

[myrna minx]

308. 2010 midterm voter turnout: Who gets the blame? Independents

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023763623

*That* happened. Not the urban myth that liberals sat out the 2010 election.

[Aerows]

310. It's the same symptom of a greater problem.

When a Democrat loses, it is because of the "left". When a Democrat wins, it is in spite of the "left". That's the narrative, as though that would motivate the shit out of voters.

[Skidmore]

311. How many of those "independents" were those eschewing party affiliation

because they were not willing to work within a party for change?

[myrna minx]

312. You need to ask them.

Everyone is always looking to unlock the mind of the squishy middle "moderate independent" voter.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

285. Yes, I do.

I'm not for a moment suggesting that a decent healthcare system is achievable in the USA, merely that no variation on your current theme will be much good.

[Aerows]

322. Aren't you grateful

that you got insulted right along with the supposition the poster made?

It's truly uplifting to be called ignorant simply because you disagree with someone. /s

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. I live in the US, and I do not think it is fixable

I think we need single payer. We will continue to toot along, this will only delay that. I said as much when the ACA was passed. Why we should have. Vermont might be what forces the country, like it happened in Canada. Truth be told, that be the State of California where we had single payer pass twice and was not allowed to go forth by the Guvernator.

[Fumesucker]

44. The problem is that they "swing" at those who are not happy with the ACA

You know, those who want to focus on what's wrong with our system so that the problems can be fixed.

Meanwhile they enjoy better, often much better systems than we do.

[VanillaRhapsody]

69. NO just like the post you just responded to...you are not defending fixing it....you are defending

the utter destruction of it.....you don't even see that do you? You just just claimed that its about "fixing it" when the post JUST said they were against the ACA from the outset (but you diminished that by calling it "not happy"...disingenuous to say the least.)

[malokvale77]

116. You really twisted what he said...

But in response, it needs to be destroyed and replaced with single payer. No for profit insurance to over-ride the patients best interest.

I understand where you are coming from. So many Americans aren't from there.

[VanillaRhapsody]

119. Well sorry to disappoint you....that is not happening...

and HOW is it twisting his words when YOU just proved my point! You are doing the EXACT same thing....how disingenuous of you too!

Not to mention missing the forest for the trees. You might as well have expected Sparkle ponies too....because what you want is unrealistic. It was NEVER going to happen. If it was so easy why aren't certain states JUMPING at the chance to create their own Single Payer systems one by one just like Canada did (not to mention this very OP would expect the Canadian to just STFU about that). There is NOTHING in the ACA that prevents them from doing so...in fact they are encouraged to....if it was so simple...wouldn't those states do it right now?

Lets not forget that just "destroying the current system" outright would be very very harmful to those who for some is the very very first chance at affordable Healthcare? Apparently 5 million and counting think there might be something to this thing....

[malokvale77]

186. No I didn't prove your point...

You are delusional. 5 million people, really? That's the size of one and a half of two large municipalities. Yay!

What about the rest of us? Do we not count? How many people do think live in this country?

It's not "affordable healthcare" (wait til they need healthcare). It's "not so affordable insurance" that covers little.

Most of the people that benefited already had insurance. They just get it cheaper now. The rest of us are still screwed.

i am one of those that will be penalized because I can not afford the premiums for insurance that will not cover anything that my county healthcare system does not already cover (my tax dollars pay for this).

I'm not into Sparkle ponies. I do however believe the wealthiest nation on the planet can well afford to take care of it's citizens.

[VanillaRhapsody]

190. It covers "little" seriously?

hahahahaha!!!!

How about Mammograms Pap Smears and Colonoscopies? Is that nothing? How about birth control coverage? Still "nothing". How about no pre-existing conditions? (nothing?) How about covering breast feeding equipment? How about not charging women twice as much as men for Health Insurance? Still nothing?

MALARKEY!

This is a BFD....just like Joe Biden said...AND so did Alan Grayson, and Bernie Sanders and Dennis Kucinich for that matter....But I guess YOU know better than all of them right?

[Lars39]

193. People with chronic conditions and high deductibles need help, too.

[VanillaRhapsody]

194. AND they are getting it...

[Lars39]

196. Not necessarily, if they fall into that gap of age and income.

It's one of those problems that need to be fixed pronto.

[VanillaRhapsody]

195. and not one single socialized medicine plan EVER went off without a hitch....

they ALL had to be improved over time...it took Canada 20 yrs.....ooops will I be told to STFU now?

[Lars39]

197. Lead, follow or get out of the way. :-)

[malokvale77]

198. ACA is not socialized medicine

It's mandated for profit insurance. There is a difference. It helps a few and hurts many.

[riverbendviewgal]

9. I love Canada and our health care

obama looked good in 2008 and 2009 but now looking south... I don't think so.. He just has a different colour coat on.

He might be not as dumb as W BUT he has the same bankers, wall street stock guys and elite pulling his strings.

very sad

[Aerows]

12. But pointing out that we have a shitty health care system

is equated with "destroying his Presidency!11!"

Can we fucking criticize something in this country without it being viewed as an attack on the Obama presidency?

There is hero worship, but then there is losing all sense in an attempt to "protect" him, as though he ever needed their help to stand on his own two feet.

[one_voice]

17. There's a difference between...

criticizing the president--which by the way I have--and calling him a piece of shit along with the big FU.

Do I think there are problems with ACA..absofuckinlutely. I think we should have universal healthcare.

I don't need to protect the president he has the Secret Service for that. I will however speak up when I think something over the top.

I'm sick of any positive thing said about Obama, any time someone speaks up and points out when something is wrong they're called hero worshippers, apologists, lock steppers, good germans and so on.

Can we just have discussions without all the labels?

FYI that rant has gone viral. It's on every right wing site and they're laughing their asses off at us. I'd be a bit more concerned with right wing assholes now lecturing us.

[Aerows]

19. I don't recall saying in my post

*anywhere* that the President is a piece of shit. Please point to me where I said that. I refuse to accept guilt or guilt by association for something I have never, and never would say.

[one_voice]

27. I didn't accuse you of saying that...

reading your comments up thread (post 7) it appeared you were talking about that thread. I was not trying to do guilt by association; my apologies if you thought I was.

[Aerows]

270. How about apologizing

because that was exactly what you were doing?

"I apologize if you were offended" isn't an apology at all.

[one_voice]

271. Absolutely.

I misunderstood and I'm sorry.

[underthematrix]

30. I don't have a problem with people criticizing

the President's policies. My problem is with the level of immaturity of some of the arguments. It seems as if some folks here expect more from the President than they would ever expect from their parents. While other people speak in black and white terms as if the world really works that way. The arguments just seems very immature. Most of the time, I do not challenge the arguments because it would like speaking into the vacuum that is FOX HATE NEWS. Waste of time.

[treestar]

39. +100000

Yes, exactly. It's not sophisticated "criticism."

[BuelahWitch]

97. Well, truthfully, I *do* expect lots more from President Obama than I did from my mother

Leader of the Free World and all that, with an exceptional education and experience in government, which my mother did not have.

[malokvale77]

200. All kidding aside...

not really. That made me laugh. I'm thinking, my mother, with her lack of higher education, could do a pretty good job as president. She kept 8 freakin' heathens in line.

But seriously, we do expect a bit more from our President.

Thanks, you made my day. I think I can sleep sound now.

[Capt. Obvious]

100. Nothing says maturity like

Change just a few words in your post and that could have been written about many others here.

[Cha]

87. You know what is "sad"? It's your ignorance on President Obama.. but, go ahead

and whine about him when you know nothing of what he's done for my country.

[Laelth]

11. k&r for exposure. n/t

-Laelth

[Aerows]

13. Thanks.

I just felt it was time to discuss something that hasn't been discussed.

[ProSense]

14. Does this

Can people that live in countries where they have actually never had to worry for a second in their lives about getting health care treatment stop lecturing people that live in US?

I'm serious. I see people from Canada and Australia lecturing people about how good the ACA is when they themselves will never have the problem of being homeless, bankrupt or dead because they can't afford health care.

<...>

You can support Obama and live in another country. You can criticize the American health care system vociferously if you live under it while still supporting the president. But you can't live under another, far more humane system than we do and tell us how much we should love the bullshit we put up with just because you support Obama.

...also apply to the people in other countries who don't "support Obama" and are telling us how shitty Obamacare is, and that we should hate it? Should they also shut up?

I mean, those people have no "skin in the game" and a lot of Americans are glad that Obamacare made improvements in the right direction.

[treestar]

40. +1000000 It improved the situation in THIS country

and was a step forward considering THIS country's politics.

Canadians, Australians and others can understand that.

[Aerows]

356. Oh my

how you got removed from my ignore list is truly a question for the ages, but I will be sure and rectify it posthaste.

[Aerows]

16. Yes, it does

But shit happens to everybody.

[Cali_Democrat]

22. hahahahaha.....nt

[HangOnKids]

205. Post got hidden

Still think it is funny?

[Cali_Democrat]

210. Oh hell ya.

You should see the reply right below mine.

That one had me in stitches.

[HangOnKids]

211. Classy

NOT!

[Cali_Democrat]

212. Thanks. nt

[HangOnKids]

213. You are very welcome

I love to point out the obvious, so glad you agree.

[Cali_Democrat]

214. Nah. I just don't care what you think.

But I see you're very interested in my opinions. You even decided to ask me if I still thought a post was funny after it was hidden.

All I wrote was "hahahaha" and you were so very interested in my thoughts.

I'm actually quite flattered.

[HangOnKids]

215. Not interested at all in what you think

Just playin'. Don't flatter yourself. Big thinker!

[Cali_Democrat]

216. "Not interested at all in what you think"

Sure you're not:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4695274

[HangOnKids]

217. Oh gee you got me there BOSS

Ever heard of this thing called a rhetorical question? Done playin' Cali-Dem you have just bored me to bed. Not buying your late night bait. I'm sure your Mom thinks you are cute though.

[Cali_Democrat]

218. LOL. Too easy.

You set that one up like a 10-year-old pitcher.

Wham.

[treestar]

219. Worst hide ever

WTF was so bad about it?

[myrna minx]

220. The OP is saddled with $18,000 medical debt because she was bitten by a raccoon and

had to undergo painful treatment to avoid the possibility of contracting rabies. Apparently this is a source if mean spirited hilarity for some very cruel people. Worse hide ever? If we had any civility here, it would have been a 6-0 hide, but ridiculing people with medical debt is a sport for some. Disgusting.

[treestar]

223. Not everyone knows that

I didn't.

[Aerows]

343. Now you do n/t

[QC]

221. She has plenty of rights! n/t

[treestar]

224. Some people make everything too personal

Stick to the issues and the point.

[Aerows]

345. Remind me how personal to take an attack

when it directly impacts me and I get readily ridiculed, personally.

[treestar]

351. Don't put personal stuff on the board

might be the answer.

[Aerows]

353. So the board isn't a place where we share our views

on politics and our lives?

I'll make a note of that. It is okay to ridicule people because treestar said that nobody should express an opinion or a life experience here.

[treestar]

362. It's just unwise to put personal stuff on the board

It allows people to figure out who you are, sometimes. And you are open to the fact you can't prove it.

[Capt. Obvious]

370. She's giving you free range to do it back

Carpe diem!

[Aerows]

371. The difference between me and many people here

is that I want to discuss ISSUES. That may include criticizing politicians and policies. It's this idea that every criticism of a politician should be taken as a personal attack and responded to with swift vengeance on a person that DARES to discuss an issue is what I my post is about.

I fixed the problem with treestar. I put her on ignore. She's free to say whatever she likes about me, because she is no longer a part of my interaction in the DU community. I really don't like ignoring people, but at some point, for your own sanity, you just have to.

[Capt. Obvious]

374. I have most of that crowd on ignore

Tempted to finish it off with the rest.

[Autumn]

229. Good hide, I saw that last night and was going to alert

but figured I would wait until this morning, That's a MIRT member too.

[QC]

233. Some of the most disruptive people ever to join DU

have served as mods in the old days and as hosts and MIRT members more recently.

In fact, that particular member had to step down as host because he was using the position to further his longtime stalking campaign against another member.

[Autumn]

238. I remember what he did in the host forum.

When you look at their postings it seems odd that it's allowed to continue.

[Aerows]

347. That poster repeatedly mocks me

makes fun of me, and usually because I've disagreed with them on a tangential issue. Anything to get a blow in, I guess.

I'm made of stronger stuff, but it is kind of awful when you get piled on.

[VanillaRhapsody]

71. Okay....this thread has me laughing my ass off literally...thank you for that one....

What does happen to folks that pet wild animals and then have NO healthcare at all because SOME Americans think Obama is a "piece of shit used car salesman"?

[JI7]

21. funny

[JI7]

23. but Americans can tell Libyans how great it was under gadaffi

and how great it was in Ukraine until someone came along with cookies.

[Number23]

82. You NAILED it. The OP has been on this Canadians etc. shouldn't talk about US policies tangent

for a while. But I have never ONCE seen one comment towards the non-Americans here that are as critical of the president as s/he is.

Apparently, she and her friends think that if someone leaves the U.S. (for work, for public duty, for military service, to travel the world etc.) then they don't have the right to say anything POSITIVE about the country or its government.

[Aerows]

89. Being as you are Australian

I could see how this touches a nerve.

[Number23]

92. Being as how you don't know what you're talking about as usual

You just keep showing everyone here how Ugly Americans get noticed on DU

[Aerows]

95. LOL

I told you I hit a nerve.

[Number23]

98. What you need to be "hitting" is the sheets. Your posts never make sense but this OP is

even more nonsensical than usual. Sounds like it's somebody's night night time.

And FYI, whatever algorithm, spreadsheet or piece of your hiney that you're using to determine poster's nationalities needs an upgrade.

[Aerows]

99. I'd dig up one of your posts

where you state you are from Australia, but I really don't feel like it. Everyone else can do the research for themselves, anyway. You don't really matter enough for me to go to the trouble.

BTW - I'm putting you on ignore. Something I should have done long ago.

[Number23]

102. I am begging you. PLEASE find ONE post where I say that I am from Australia

ONE. Uno.

You don't really matter enough for me to go to the trouble.

You know, I'd say the exact same thing if I was spewing stuff out of my hindquarters that everyone knew was bullshit too.

Edit: Just noticed your comment "BTW - I'm putting you on ignore. Something I should have done long ago."

which my previous comment to you is in absolutely perfect response to as well.

"You know, I'd say the exact same thing if I was spewing stuff out of my hindquarters that everyone knew was bullshit too."

Buh bye, now

[Puglover]

110. Where could have she EVER got THAT idea???

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=523293

Maybe you meant something else?

Yeah yeah I know.

How DARE I respond to you.

i'm a stalker.

No I am not putting you on ignore.

Maybe I an save us some time here.

[Aerows]

118. LMAO

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=523293

I know there is another one out there, too, because that isn't even the one I remember.

It's laughable. They make comments about THEMSELVES and then wonder why it sticks in people's memories. Like I said, though, I really don't care enough about that poster to go to the trouble of finding her other posts where she stated she was an Australian.

[Spazito]

120. Where does it say the poster is Australian?

There ARE Americans living outside the U.S. for any number of reasons and I believe Number23 is one. Seeing as she has been locked out of this thread from a rather benign post, I felt it would be fair for me to raise this for her.

[Aerows]

121. She's down under

She's also posted before that she is an Australian. I didn't bother to look it up, because everyone already knows she is in Australia. I have barely exchanged a word with that poster and know that much.

She got locked out of the thread because she resorted to making personal attacks on people and went too far this time. I certainly didn't alert on it, because I put her on ignore so that I didn't have to see it.

[Spazito]

124. She has stated she is an American living in Australia many times...

and she has NOT stated she is Australian. Please feel free to post her saying she is Australian as I must have missed it OR you are mistaken.

[Aerows]

129. Puglover posted a link

Read it, or don't.

There are others. Again, believe what someone posts about themselves or don't. No skin off my nose.

[Spazito]

147. I read it, I'm not sure you did though...

Do you really think someone who is an Australian would say this:

" Maybe I've been Down Under for too long"

or would that be from someone who has moved there and has lived there for a time?

Puglover's link actually adds to the credibility of the poster he's trying to discredit, imo.

[Puglover]

130. I would NOT

Have voted to hide that post. I don't alert either.

It's a fine point. However she was insulting, demeaning and nasty to another DUer. I live in Ecuador. So I know what it means to be American and live abroad.

I realize she and you are simpatico. That's great. But IMHO she asked (no begged I believe) for it.

[Spazito]

148. I have no idea whether you alerted or not...

my point was about your link assuming it stated the poster was Australian where it did not.

[Puglover]

155. Nice try at deflection.

Once again. She lives in AU and if her post is to be believed she benefits from AU healthcare because she is married to an Australian. Good for her.

[Spazito]

164. Wow, red herring much, your post was in reference to the poster being Australian...

which was incorrect. Now you want to change it to 'lives in AU' instead.

I guess I can take that change as an 'oops, I was wrong' re the poster being Australian.

Link for posterity, just in case you need it given your error:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8277644&mesg_id=8278178

[Puglover]

168. LOL

I can't even follow your er uh logic.

Nighty night.

[Spazito]

172. lol back...

Nighty night, enjoy the link I provided, I know I am!

[Puglover]

175. .

http://mindfulconstruct.com/2009/01/06/the-double-edge-of-deflection/

[Spazito]

180. Sorry, I don't click on links I don't know...

but I do appreciate your acknowledgment of your attempt to deflect, assuming the link is about deflection. I hope you can sleep well now you understand your error.

[Violet_Crumble]

339. The logic is simple

Living in Australia doesn't mean someone's an Australian. Americans live in Australia. Unless they have dual nationality they're not Australian. Not that there's anything wrong with being Australian despite the attempts by the OP to make out they have no right to an opinion. Even though the OP sits there and acts as though they have a right to lecture about our health care. Coz anyone who thinks we don't ever have to worry doesn't know what they're talking about. I can send them the shock medical bill I got the other week and they can take care of it

[Aerows]

357. I was not in any way shape or form

attempting to tell you that you have no right to an opinion.

I was saying that if you have universal health care, you shouldn't be bashing folks that don't have that benefit. I have reasons for that opinion. I didn't drag it out of my ass. I don't want our Australian and Canadian brethren and sisters to go away at ALL.

What I got pissed about was people in countries with universal health care bashing on people that criticize "functions" of the ACA. You are welcome to support the US, you are welcome to support Obama. Just please don't beat up those of us that are finding the ACA to be less than stellar.

Please read my post again. It is not a criticism of the fine DUers in other countries. It is a criticism of those that repeatedly excoriate, chastise and demean people critical of the ACA (for reasons that have nothing to do with political affiliation) while having a superior health care system that they are afforded.

[Violet_Crumble]

366. That's fair enough...

Thanks for explaining

[Puglover]

363. I am going to answer your post as

you were fairly civil.

I do not understand why the OP's point is being so wildly misinterpreted. Well I do understand why but that is another matter.

I understand living Australia does not make one Australian. I live in Ecuador and I am not Ecuadorian. Yet.

No there is absolutely nothing wrong with either being an Australian or an American living in Australia and offering up opinions on this board. The OP has said this repeatedly in this thread. Or Canadian or any other nationality.

What the heartburn is with is posters that live under another system and are not subject to the ACA swinging around this board in thread after thread excoriating people that live with the ACA. Tossing out pejoratives and being snide rather then discussing the subject and sharing their experiences in a civil manner. And those posters are out there. And people are over it.

I don't know how to be more clear.

[Violet_Crumble]

364. Thanks for the fairly civil reply...

Though it wasn't as fairly civil as mine

What I objected to was seeing an American who lives in Australia being treated as though she has no right to have an opinion or talk with any experience about the US health system. In that sort of case, someone like that would know far more than for example someone like me, who originally thought this ACA thing was going to be like Medicare here where everyone is covered, though Medicare certainly doesn't cover everything. Now I know it's more the equivalent of our private health insurance system, but from the looks of it, more expensive for most people. But I hope that from what's a pretty lacklustre start, eventually Americans will end up with a health care system similar to other Western countries and join the rest of us in the First World

[Puglover]

365. Oh cmon. It was

vastly more civil.

We have absolutely no disagreement here.

[Bobbie Jo]

122. Psssst....

23 is an American, no "gotcha moment" here.

[Aerows]

125. Pssst

She isn't and has repeatedly mentioned she is an Australian.

Puglover brought up just one post that explains how I know this. I remember at least one or two others where she says that she is.

I realize that you wish to bolster the creds of one of your friends, and that is understandable, but you are barking up the wrong tree here.

[VanillaRhapsody]

150. You also know Americans can have dual citizenship too right?

this is really lame....

She could also be Australian by parents but born in the U.S.....meaning "ethnically Australian" while being American by birth...

[Bobbie Jo]

151. You're wrong.

She lives in Australia, but she is an American.

With that, I'm walking away from this ugly witch hunt. This line of attack is petty beyond belief, so you all can just trade your self-righteous, congratulatory sneers among yourselves.

Edited to add:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8277644&mesg_id=8278178

*If you had any integrity, you would apologize for the epic ass-showing here.

[Puglover]

158. I'm not sneering.

Laughing but not sneering.



Have a good night.

[Whisp]

183. o dear

what a shame that it comes down to this kind of grade 2 stuff, eh?

I am embarassed for some of these folks.

[Violet_Crumble]

360. Here's some facts for you...

I'm replying coz I noticed number23 can't reply anymore. She has never mentioned that she's an Australian. She's mentioned that she's currently living in Australia. Living here doesn't automatically make someone an Australian just like the Australians at DU who live in America aren't Americans. From what I understand she's an American living in Australia. If she's a permanent resident or has a relationship with an Australian citizen, she's entitled to a Medicare card. But why do you think an American who's currently living in another country has no right to talk about the US healthcare system? They've got every bit as much a right as you do.

btw, I'm Australian, and while I haven't had much to say about this ACA thing apart from asking a few questions, I'll say whatever I want to say about it and I don't care if you agree with me or not. And yr free to talk about our healthcare system and rather than telling you to not talk about it, I'll correct you on what you get wrong. And here's the first bit that you got wrong in yr OP. While our healthcare system is heads and shoulders above that of the US, it's a two tier system where quite a few things like laser surgery and MRI's aren't covered by Medicare unless yr an inpatient. So, believe me. We don't live in a nirvana where no-one ever has to worry for a second about getting health care treatment...

[Puglover]

145. How did I know you'd be showing

up BobbieJo?

Always a pleasure. I mean that.

It is more then obvious 23 is an American. However unless things have changed she lives in AU. And married to an Aussie. I believe that would make her eligible for AU healthcare.

Which was the point no matter the efforts at deflection.

[Dorian Gray]

222. It doesn't matter if someone is from another country

really. They can react and critique as they see fit. And people from other countries can analyze our health care system. Many of those people have spent time here. They've lived our system.

While I think the ACA has much room for improvement, it's not above criticism. Nor is Obama. So, essentially I agree with your position. But restricting other people from commenting because of where they live? I don't think that's cool.

[Lars39]

228. It's not where they live, it's that they're being obnoxious.

[QC]

235. Exactly. Imagine if I were to hang out on a politics board in France,

and rather than discuss French politics calmly and rationally, I spent all my time shouting at the people there demanding that they STFU right now because I have some strange celeb crush on François Hollande.

That would be seen as quintessential Ugly American behavior, and rightly so (not to mention more than a little bit weird).

[Lars39]

237. Perfect analogy!

pêche à la traîne

[Aerows]

250. Which was my point

in this entire thread. I can list several of the usual suspects and quite a few of them aren't even from or in this country.

I do not understand it when people harass and bait people that are affected by a policy and express concerns when they don't live under those policies. It's strange.

[QC]

292. But Monsieur Hollande is just so dreamy!!!

Leave him alone!!!

[Aerows]

244. That's not what I said

What I said was essentially stop scolding people for criticizing the ACA, especially if you live in a country with universal health care. The ACA is not above criticism, and neither is Obama. Some people, who don't even vote here or live under this system go ballistic because it is somehow seen as slighting President Obama.

As an American citizen, I really don't want to be harassed because I point out the flaws of our health care system by people that have a far better one.

That's it in a nutshell.

[bvar22]

240. WOW.

I didn't know that 23 was not even an American Citizen of a member of the Democratic Party.
Sure seems like a lot of BOGGERS don't even live here.


Maybe they should add a disclaimer to the bottom of their posts.

[Aerows]

245. Many of them don't

Yet they go medieval on you if you so much as breathe a word of criticism directed at our government or the policies that are being advanced. Please, chime in and say what you love about the US and our President, that's great. Just don't make it a mission to harass anyone and everyone that has legitimate concerns about the government we live under, because, you know, we are the ones living here under said policies.

[bvar22]

242. I saved you the trouble.

Actually, it took 3 seconds.
First HIT on the site search:

Fear of a Red Planet? (China)
Posted by Number23 in General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010)
Tue Mar 31st 2009, 07:28 PM

[font size=3]"I (currently) live in Australia ...."[/font]

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Number23/15

[Marr]

169. You have got to be fucking kidding me.

Is *every* obnoxious finger wagger just completely unaffected by this legislation, or what?

This explains a lot.

[Union Scribe]

208. It sure does.

This has been very eye-opening.

[Lars39]

209. Yup.

[Aerows]

273. That's why I brought it up

It's the same crowd in the spying threads, the ACA threads and anything that is remotely critical of policy in the US.

[Aerows]

325. You sound bitter

Did the US not do what you wanted them to do in your country? Why are you allowed to blame the US for something but not complain about a policy that is a US policy?

I don't get that. I don't understand why I can't criticize anything the US government does, but you can.

[JoePhilly]

24. Can you be an American and be happy ...

... That the ACA passed? Cause I am.

My 17 year old niece had cancer at 2. Had been excluded from coverage for most of her life. Is now covered for the kidney stones that were never covered before.

Mom's donut hole has closed.

Nephews in early 20s covered.

Which personal experiences are allowed as reasons to like the ACA, and yet want more?

Or must we all be screaming "fuck Obama"??

[JI7]

33. people must be upset at criticism of the koch brother ads

[VanillaRhapsody]

73. No we "Americans" are all supposed to agree that Pres. Obama is a

"piece of shit car salesman"....or else I guess...

[greatauntoftriplets]

75. Excellent news for your niece!

[JI7]

25. so Canadians can't speak out against Koch Brother Ads ?

[Aerows]

41. Did I say that in my post anywhere

or is this another attempt to make me feel guilty for saying something I didn't say?

I'm tired of that tactic. And that is all it is - a tactic to shut someone up because you disagree with the content of their post.

Feel free to attack what I said, but don't put words in my mouth that weren't there.

[JI7]

43. you are talking about foreigners commenting on the US

[Aerows]

48. No.

I didn't comment on those in other countries discussing US policies. I commented on people in countries with universal health care that never have to worry about health care financially ruining them or killing them because they can't afford it explaining how great the ACA is.

There is a difference. When you explain how great shoes are to a person with no feet, you are pretty much being a bone head. I know that is a nuanced analogy, but many don't seem to be able to grasp that.

[JI7]

49. so they can't criticize the Koch Brother Ads on Obamacare

[Aerows]

54. Yes, JI7.

That's exactly what I said in my post. I mentioned the Koch brothers repeatedly and said that no one in any other country can ever discuss US politics, ever. Yep, that is exactly what I said.

[VanillaRhapsody]

160. But you see....you don't seem to get WHY the Koch bros commercials have been tossed at you

again and again...never seeing the irony.... never understanding why it is hilarious. The reason is because you are JUST as hyperbolic as EVERY single person that has appeared in the Koch Ads.....and EVERY single one has been full of shit....NOT one could back up what they were saying about the ACA...but everyone is just supposed to take your opinion of it as fact....Nevermind that 5 million newly insured beg to differ with you and are glad for some RELIEF! Even if it is NOT as good as YOU hoped for...

[VanillaRhapsody]

153. So why is it you cannot afford the ACA while everyone that the Koch bros could drag out can?

Every single one that says JUST what you are saying here...has been shown to be talking smack....EVERY.SINGLE.ONE!

[Whisp]

52. excuse me, but you were wanting to shut Me up.

Me and all those other nasty dumb furiners.

From your own keyboard:
If you live in a country that has either single payer or you have universal health care, don't comment on the American health care system.

[VanillaRhapsody]

74. So it is okay for YOU to decide who is supposed to STFU....is that the ticket?

no one gets to tell you that when they disagree with YOU but YOU expect THEM to STFU when YOU disagree...

Makes perfect sense

[Fumesucker]

26. The people who do this have no ability to see themselves as we see them

Or they wouldn't gloat so at how badly we are getting screwed compared to their systems.

And I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.

[Whisp]

29. I see no gloating of the kind you spew.

You are suggesting it's a nah nah nah, I got mine and fuck you.

I see none of that - granted I don't read every post but in all the fairly wide reading here I do do, never once Gloating.

Shameful for you to shove that into the conversation.

[Fumesucker]

35. Of course you gloat

You have it so much better and yet you tell us to eat our peas and furthermore that we should be thankful for them.

That is what's disgraceful.

[Whisp]

45. haha, the bait isn't tasty enough so I'm not biting!

but I'll let you think I am so you tire yourself out.

[JI7]

59. i had no idea you had it so easy in life

[Whisp]

61. Yeh, that's me. They call me Gloaty round here.

In fact, we all call each other Gloaty around here in Canader.

[VanillaRhapsody]

76. NO this is perceived ONLY by those that do NOT support the ACA...

so you have twisted it into gloating....there is NO evidence to support this claim what so ever. In fact most Americans disagree with you about the ACA!

[adirondacker]

32. "Those below know more about those above". nt

[Fumesucker]

46. Indeed they do n/t

[LittleBlue]

31. K&R. nt

[treestar]

34. Living in another country does not mean they cannot understand US politics nt

[adirondacker]

51. How about "the Have's don't understand the Have Not's". nt

[blkmusclmachine]

37. ,

,

[riderinthestorm]

47. I'm a dual citizen - Irish and American and I agree 100%

Some folks from other countries ARE spanking Americans for not being sufficiently grateful about the ACA. I see it. Its obvious.

[Lars39]

162. This thread has definitely been an eye opener for me.

It is obvious, isn't it.

[Aerows]

317. I see four lights

and no amount of derision will make me see five.

[Lars39]

318. Glad you got the reference!

Loved that episode.

[Aerows]

320. Great episode :D

I loved it

[TheKentuckian]

368. Haha! Fucking A, why do these folks think they can bully folks into seeing five.

Especially since the promise is not an easy life but rather a craw full of peas is the promised reward for saying you are "seeing it another way" than first inclined.

It is funny how some of the fiercest will have no peas to swallow while others are in the "upwardly mobile" set and also actually come out ahead under the setup than they would under universal care because it is far, far less expensive for the wealthy and upper crust. Fee for services is designed to set up just so.

[Aerows]

369. If they can't bully you into seeing five

they can post offensive things about you and to you so that you blow up and get yourself locked out of your own thread. There were stringent efforts right here on this one. I didn't take the bait, though, because I know where it is all coming from.

If it involves criticizing any little thing the President does, you either get a heaping helping of derision, scoffing and mocking, or attempts to bait you so that you get a hide. Because really, they don't want to discuss these things. They just want to shut conversations down.

Why go on a discussion board if your only goal is to derail, disrupt and distract people from ... having a discussion?

[LuvNewcastle]

50. I don't know why people do that. It's so fucking rude to lecture

people from other countries about their internal politics.

It's one thing for people in other countries to have an opinion about our foreign policy because that affects them too, but they don't know all the ins and outs of our domestic issues. I don't care how much one might read about other countries and their way of life, it's quite a different thing to be in the middle of it and experience it first hand.

I'm not saying people in foreign countries should shut up, I just think they should always keep in mind that there is a lot that they don't know about the situation.

And one more thing, I agree that a lot of DUers stand for things they should deplore just because they think that it hurts the President for them to do otherwise. Do they have any real principles or do they just stand for whatever is the most expedient? When I see people doing that time after time, I tune out everything else they say because I've lost respect for them. I'm sure plenty of others do the same.

So to all these people who always stand with Obama and the Democratic Party, right or wrong, I'll just say that their strategy isn't working. In fact, it's having the opposite effect.

[Aerows]

77. Precisely

I never would have made this post if it hadn't been repeatedly shoved in my face.

[gcomeau]

53. How about a Canadian...

...who has lived in the US for 13 years? (a.k.a. me)

Yeah, the US system still sucks compared to Canada. But the ACA was, undoubtedly, an improvement. Did it solve everyone's problems? No. Did it mitigate A LOT OF PEOPLE'S PROBLEMS? Yes. That simply isn't open to rational argument.

And given that there was effectively zero chance whatsoever of getting anything better through (has everyone just blocked out the memory of how much effort had to be put in to overcome Senate filibuster even for THIS????) getting all pissed at Obama for doing what could be done is stupid.

[Andy823]

68. Exactly!

We now have something to build on where as before the ACA we only what the insurance companies want to give us, which was high premiums, and companies that could, and would, refuse car for pre-existing conditions, raise rates every year, put limits on how much we could get from them, and in many cases people who lost everything they had because their bills were completely covered by their policy.

It's not perfect by a long way, but it's a hell of lot better than what so many had before the ACA.

[VanillaRhapsody]

78. they STILL expected that Obama could wave his magic wand and we all would have magic

Unicorns eating lucky four leaf clovers in our front yards....


The President is no magician!!!

[VanillaRhapsody]

55. this stance is getting more desperate by the minute....

suddenly on THIS issue people outside the country should STFU? How funny is that....

By the way...I am IN this country and I support the President AND the ACA...are you going to tell me to STFU now too?

[JI7]

57. i thinkt he entire world should attack the Koch Brothers and their bs ads

[VanillaRhapsody]

60. Why can't we first attack those that are calling the duly elected Democratic President on

a Democratic forum a "piece of shit car salesman"? I find there are some right here on DU that seem to be auditioning for the next Koch bros extravaganza!

[JI7]

62. as others said i think that was an audition for koch brothers ad

[Whisp]

63. and the entire world should see tea talk in action:

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[VanillaRhapsody]

65. hahahahahaha very clever Whisp....very clever indeed!

[Cha]

90. He nailed the audition.

[jtuck004]

66. K&R n/t

[ErikJ]

72. Big problems with ACA

Last edited Wed Mar 19, 2014, 10:21 PM - Edit history (1)

Problems with ACA
--Still EMPLOYER based health care.
--Still FOR-PROFIT private sector based whose profits make the whole system mopre expensive
---Way too complex.
---Too expensive for drugs which are exempt from Obamacare regs.

[NoOneMan]

80. I've lived in the US and Canada so maybe I have some perspective

In any case, all I'm going to say is that despite how bad it might be up here at times (and its pretty damn sweet in comparison), the people of Canada would have a full out riot (worse than what happened over tuition increases) if the ACA was force on them--no matter how charasmatic the turd polisher was.

[Aerows]

86. They would have conniption fits

And yet plenty of Canadians, Aussies and others come into threads and piss all over anyone that criticizes the ACA. Not because they know anything about it or will ever have to live under it. They are upset because "Obama". That's it.

Hell, they didn't even vote for him (I did, twice) yet want to take Americans who did to task for criticizing anything that happens under his administration.

That's inane. Anyone that wants to live under the health care system that we do, and wants to champion President Obama no matter what should seize the tiger by the tail and COME LIVE HERE and experience the glories of the ACA for themselves.

Not a damn one of them would.

[treestar]

274. this is not true

you are the one pissing on others about Obama and the fact you can't stand anyone supporting him or the ACA, and it doesn't matter what country they live in now.

No, it is not about some crush on Obama, but an opinion that the ACA was the best we could get and that it's a move forward and that dissing it overmuch does not help with the soft middle of voters out there, and thus is counterproductive to moving forward to a system like Canada's.

With so many voters worried about "government health care" you are pissing on this way and expecting then the voters will react by electing people to enact a system involving even more government? that is not going to work. You think you can scold the right and the middle into giving you a Canadian system? Any Canadian or Australian is qualified to opine on what might lead to enactment of such a system and to possibly disagree that your apparent method for getting it is going to work.

Maybe you have some proof that whining produced the Canadian and Australian systems? Stomping feet and electing Tories to spite the Labor Party for not doing it fast enough? Is that how it came about?

[Cha]

88. Well this isn't Canada, is it? So we now have health care insurance for Millions of People

who wouldn't have had it before. Glad you have such wonderful health care system in Canada.. too bad you're so bitter about what we have.

[Autumn]

241. You really think a person who has health care in Canada would be bitter

because we Americans get to fucking pay for insurance? OMFG That fucking explains everything

[VanillaRhapsody]

133. and HOW did the Canadians do it by the way? Fiat?

It was done one province at a time....thank you very much. There is NOTHING in the ACA that prevents individual stated from creating their own Single payer system (Canadian style) one state by one state. In fact the ACA encourages them to do so....

[bvar22]

243. Yes! One province at a time... but

the first step was NOT requiring every citizen to BUY Health Insurance from For Profit Corporations,
and Subsidizing those For Profit Corporations with $100BILLION per year of taxpayer money.

THAT is not a step toward a Publicly Owned/Government Administered National Health Care Plan.
It IS a giant leap toward the Privatization of For Profit access to Health Care in America.

[VanillaRhapsody]

247. They would BE required to pay TAXES for it....

and like I said...NO state is preempted FROM making their own Single Payer system......None have completed that thus far. If it was sooooo easy...Vermont would have done it already. But in the meantime we should just keep things JUST the way they were right? We shouldn't do ACA to help folks NOW...is THIS what you mean? No stop gap measures....just wait for the states to create their own Single Payer...that makes perfect sense doesn't it?

[treestar]

275. Thank you! And it would probably be Canadians who would inform us of that

And we might then be educated on how it comes about. Instead of scolding them for having an opinion, it would seem we could learn from them, in a case where we want what they have.

I guess some Prime Minister waived it into being, as they expect Obama to.

[VanillaRhapsody]

276. exactly....they think this President can do whatever he wants...

apparently what they really want is a Tyrant not a actual President!

[LiberalAndProud]

338. Which is where we need to begin to fix this.

I think we can all agree that the ACA fell short of what we should have. But that window for working state by state to make a real change is pretty sweet. Some Republican governors have decided to make that much more difficult by blocking the changes provided in the ACA already, but I think the dominoes will fall eventually. If we decide to make a start. Vermont is way ahead of the pack on this. We have some catching up to do.

[Autumn]

227. Yes they would have a full blown riot if they had to have what we get.

A well polished turd is still a turd.

[VanillaRhapsody]

249. its a stop gap measure between now and when states CAN make Single Payer systems...

there is nothing stopping them and in fact they are encouraged too....

BUT instead you propose we kept the "unpolished turd" while we wait for that to happen right?

Oh and 5 million people who FINALLY have healthcare think something stinks but its not the ACA!

[pansypoo53219]

83. because clinton did such a better job getting his passed.

YES. amerika is so fucking stupid on this allowing itself to be brainwashed. obama GOT THE !ST TOE IN THE DOOR. this is only the 1st step. social secuirty took many years to get where it is. NO, it is NOT PERFECT. but shit. THIS IS AMERIKA. SOMETHING ACTUALLY ADVANCED. inch by inch, step by step. HELP IT GET BETTER.

[Andy823]

84. Still better that what we had

Is it perfect? NO

Does it need fixing in areas? YES

Is it better that what we had before? HELL YES!

If you are not happy may I suggest you write your members of congress, and that you do all you can to get rid of the brain dead republican tea party clowns that would let millions DIE every year so insurance companies can make huge profits, and who will do all they can to make that happen if they get in office!

What we have now is something that we can build on, and that's what we need to do, keep on building on what we have till we get a universal system.

[Capt. Obvious]

85. Obama's got his northern flank covered

[gulliver]

101. Canadians and Australians should please disregard the OP.

It's completely silly.

[Bobbie Jo]

108. At this point.....

One has to be creative to keep the divisiveness alive.

[VanillaRhapsody]

137. TOTAL agreement!!

[Spazito]

103. This Canadian was born before there was universal healthcare of any kind...

so I do KNOW what it is like to not be able to go to the doctor because my parents couldn't afford it, couldn't have needed surgery until I was eleven because my parents couldn't afford it. You seem to think universal healthcare was born at the same time Canada became Canada, that Canadians didn't have to deal with insurance companies whose policies were out of reach for many financially.

Universal healthcare didn't come into being until 1967 and protection from being 'extra-billed' didn't come into being until 1977. It was done incrementally and NOT all at once.

It seems to me your anger is more about DUers living in other countries supporting Obama than their comments about ACA. I would trade you our Prime Minister for your President in a heartbeat so I guess I should now STFU but, nope, not going to do that.

ACA isn't universal healthcare but neither was ours in the beginning, it took more than 20 years to get where we are today, I only hope you don't have to wait over 20 years from now. I am now going to break your dictate and give my foreign opinion on ACA, it's not great but it beats NO insurance, it beats being denied coverage because of pre-existing conditions.

[Spazito]

107. Hey Number23, it's good to see you as well!

I did consider letting this nonsense OP pass me by but, damn, it was full of misinformation, hypocrisy and vitriol, I decided to at least add some facts to counter some of it, probably to no avail, lol.

[Number23]

109. When Bush was in office, Americans loved it when non-Americans trashed him endlessly

as he should have been. Now, some are burning calories acting as though the thoughts/opinions of non-Americans don't mean anything.

I want to hear from MORE people, not less. Hell, the fact that DU is so insulated is one of the reasons the quality of discourse has become so miserable. Instead of telling non-Americans to shut up, I wish there was MORE diversity here, not less unlike some. This place could benefit tremendously from having less loud shrill fringers and more people from all walks of life in all countries.

I remember we had a couple of posters that said they were from Africa. Haven't seen hide nor hair of them in years, not that I blame them. Many Hispanic, Asian and black AMERICANS no longer post here. And some apparently want the bubble even tighter.

[Spazito]

111. Yes, sadly, DU has changed a lot...

Having been a member for more than 11 years, I am saddened to see how it has gone from a place where one could be sure to find facts, lively debate and and one supportive of electing Democrats and working against Republicans to a place where all too many threads are vitriolic diatribes against a Democratic President while saying nary a word against the Republicans who are the ones more to blame for what remains undone.

[JustAnotherGen]

324. I've read the whole thing now

You married an Aussie and moved there with him - and somehow that made you Crocodile Effin Dundee! Holy shtiballs!

[arthritisR_US]

112. Thank You! You said exactly what I was thinking but much more eloquently.

Like yourself, I would trade Harper in a heartbeat for Obama! People are often ignorant of the evolution of our health care system so thanks for the reminder

[Spazito]

114. Thank you for the compliment!

The evolution of our system is not unlike what is happening now in the U.S. and I think it's important to have that known. The Insurance companies here tried to stop it's evolution as did the Conservatives, the fight was vicious and long. Tommy Douglas isn't our greatest hero for no reason, that's for sure!

[arthritisR_US]

117. For me he sure is! :) nt

[Whisp]

123. Thanks for that post.

Some people just can't accept that the system we have in Canada can't happen in 4 or 8 years. As you said, it was a long and brutal struggle with interference from doctors and paid stooges in the industry that profited greatly from human misery, very much like we hear from the idiot repugs against Obamacare. Same greedy shits with the same greedy stories looking out for themselves and not caring about the health of the population.

It's truly disturbing that a portion of this generation is so used to 'take out', something fast and cheap. I want it Now because I Said so. And they have their assasination daggers out toward someone's back who is truly trying to make the important first steps toward single payer.

Madness!

and sadness.

[Spazito]

136. It was a brutal fight, one we almost lost...

most pivotal change, regardless of country, happens over time, in increments and healthcare is a good example of that, both in Canada and the U.S.

[VanillaRhapsody]

144. THIS is the truth...

It seems to me your anger is more about DUers living in other countries supporting Obama than their comments about ACA. I would trade you our Prime Minister for your President in a heartbeat so I guess I should now STFU but, nope, not going to do that

Its swinging in the wind.....

[tblue37]

154. +1

[Puzzledtraveller]

105. I think I got it

so I recc'd

[idendoit]

115. Aerows must still be on mom and dads's policy.

[Aerows]

139. I wish to God

I was in my 20's.

[VanillaRhapsody]

165. I have to clean my monitor now....Thanks!

[Agschmid]

132. Well in the thread the other day you were convinced I'm not a citizen...

But I am by birth, and I've never lived anywhere else so potentially maybe just listen to your fellow Americans?

[Aerows]

138. Could you link to the post where

I stated that you didn't live in the US?

Thanks.

[Agschmid]

142. Here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4682722

104. While I like the person you replied to

I suspect they aren't a US citizen. No one that isn't a US citizen would understand the bullshit and financial pressure even minor shit costs here. They can go to the doctor for anything. We can't even go to the doctor if we are about to drop dead without it costing a fucking fortune.

I'll elect to die first.

They wonder why we are such a militant bloodthirsty nation? It's because if we get even slightly ill or injured we are destroyed financially.

[Aerows]

152. Well, to my credit

I said I "suspected". I didn't say I knew.

You can condemn me if you like, but the point remains that our health care system sucks and those that don't deal with it don't have the right to point fingers and tongue-lash those that do for being critical of it.

[Agschmid]

156. No condemnation from me.

I'd love to see single payer happen tomorrow trust me.

And again I'm frustrated by the bill you are forced to pay, and sorry this has happened to you.

[Aerows]

159. Thanks

I appreciate you saying that.

[demwing]

167. How about we "allow" everyone the right to say

any damned thing they want to say?

I'd rather have a system where a few stupid (IMO) ideas get listened to by a few serious people, than a system where a few serious people reserve right of approval over all of our ideas.

[Aerows]

171. Sure

But the people that actually LIVE under the system should be allowed to discuss it without being scolded by people that have never lived under that system.

That's the whole point of the post. I got fed up with people who will never use the ACA telling everyone how spiffy it is. Like they know. Like it affects them. It doesn't.

You have to have a lot of gall to tell people that are faced with very difficult health care decisions that you will never face that their opinion is a pile of crap. That was my entire point.

[treestar]

277. But they can have an opinion about the politics of it

And it could be helpful, as they have enacted that system. As stated above, it was gradual in Canada.

We all have to hear opposing views even if we have personal problems. They don't have problems with medical bills, does that mean they have to disapprove of the ACA just because? They don't have to agree with you.

[Autumn]

184. Don't take it to heart Aerows, none of it is really about the ACA.

Think about it. It's a very small handful of people doing that. The vast majority of people who are in other countries that post here are being supportive of our plight.

[Aerows]

185. Thanks Autumn

I appreciate the post.

[Autumn]

187. You just pay them no mind.

Motives always come out and become clear.

[laundry_queen]

188. This Canadian agrees with you

I think it is exceptionally smug for someone with universal healthcare to tell someone without it that they should be thankful. Reminds me of the 1% telling poor people they should be thankful that they aren't poor in a third world country because in North America they are rich in comparison.

I also didn't take your post as a 'Foreigners can't post anything about America!' post. TBH, I never understood why some Canadians are such Obama fans here on DU. I mean, I can see liking the guy but it's weird to see so many people so invested in him when they don't even live in the US and aren't citizens. I have no issues with commenting on American policies though, and I don't think I need to butt out. I also don't see a problem with someone commenting on the ACA...but I do get what you mean about 'lecturing'. I've seen that here too...I may have even been sanctimonious a time or 2 about other topics, but I don't understand why one must put down those who are struggling. I get that from my rich mother all the time...I'm a single mom of 4, in school full time, and I get to hear her talk about how hard she worked, how lazy I am and how I should be thankful that I'm not homeless because my ex pays me child support. She refuses to help me out in any meaningful way, because I might 'take it for granted'. This pontificating about the ACA reminds me of how my mother treats me.

Okay, I'm beginning to ramble, but just wanted to let you know that some Canadians get what you are saying. I think you guys deserve much, much better than the ACA.

[Aerows]

189. Thanks, LQ

I didn't mean that you guys shouldn't comment, it's just the smug, excoriating tone that is a problem when people in the US express concerns with our healthcare system.

It's very frustrating to see someone that has the advantage of a superior health care system put other posters down because they dare to criticize it. I'd be griping about it no matter who was president, and I have every right to do so. Electing President Obama didn't automatically make every concern I've ever had about the way the US is run go away, and it's ridiculous when people get offended on his behalf because someone brings up a problem.

[Puglover]

226. Amazing post.

Nice to have an adult in the room. Sorry about your Mom. Those relationships are often complicated.

[LostOne4Ever]

207. How convient

If you disagree with me shut up. If you agree with me carry on.

Im seeing no attempt to squalsh discussion here. Nope none at all.



BTW:

Born, raised, and live in the USA.

[Aerows]

282. Not what I said

and most everyone knows it. Read my post again. Supporting President Obama and the US is fantastic. We all appreciate it. The Democratic party appreciates it, I'm sure.

The problem comes when saying that a policy sucks and people that don't even live under that policy jump in and lecture the poster or worse, belittle them.

I love my country. I also have issues with things my government does. I will speak up about them regardless of who is President. I will speak up about them even if it looks unkindly on Democrats, Republicans or anybody of any political stripe.

What I'm not going to do is go onto a forum in Canada and bash Canadians or go to a forum in Australia and bash Australians for criticizing a government policy. What is the point of doing that?

Share your opinions, sure. Just don't relentlessly hound people sharing THEIR opinions of the government they live under because they have justified criticisms of those policies.

[LostOne4Ever]

381. No one should belittle anyone

It does not matter ones nationality, politics, religion, or anything.

And just because someone does not live under said policy does not mean that they don't have family or friends who do, and that they too may have a vested interest in seeing the policy succeed or fail.

While they may not live under the policy themselves does not mean they might not have something meaninful to add to the discussion. Ultimately, the more information we can get, confirm, and analyze the better the conclusion we can make.

I have never lived in or around Germany, but If I saw someone making sexist and disparaging remarks about their Prime minister that I knew were not true (though I know next to nothing about her) I would speak up. Wouldn't you?

This is doubly true for someone who I feel is helping people.

If this was solely about civility, then I apologize and agree. We should all treat each other as we would want to be treated. But again, no reason to limit that to foreigners, it holds true for everyone. For those born here and abroad, for those who agree and disagree.

That said, and again I apologize if this was SOLELY about civility, the way you focus in on those who criticizing others for criticizing the president really makes it look like you are trying to silence only one specific group while allowing others who agree with you to have a free pass.

[Aerows]

382. It isn't about those abroad

whatsoever. It is about people that can't find it within themselves to be civil because of some misguided idea that criticizing a political policy is automatically criticism of a politician and taken as personal criticism. I'm sure you have seen the posts directed at me already in this thread. Personal attacks.

I gave up, though. I just put those folks on ignore, and I am not worried about it anymore. I hate doing that, but in the end, for my own sanity, I had to do so.

[woo me with science]

225. K&R

[bvar22]

239. WARNING to all Canadians, Austrailians, and Europeans

.....who now enjoy National Single Payer Health Care:

The same people who have bought our government, our Media, and both of our major Political Parties,
and now very busy buying up your government, your Media, and your political parties.

You may have already noticed the increasing calls for austerity, balanced budgets, cutting government spending, lowering taxes (on the RICH). While you are laughing at us, you ARE losing your own countries.
YOU risk waking up one morning to find that your Party is implementing a "Market Based Solution"
to solve your "out of control Health Care Costs".

You had better get active and protect what you have,
because if you don't start riding the backs of your "representatives",
watching them like hawks,
and hitting the streets every time they step out of line
you will soon have your very own version the ObamaCare Market Based "Solution"
that transfers your Middle Class Wealth to your RICH Corporate Owners.

Then, you can come here and tell us how wonderful it is,
and actually know what you are talking about.

Seriously, they are BUYING your government and your Political Party as we speak.
Right Now.
And the plan for YOU is the same as the plan for US.
It will happen fast, and come from people you "trust".
It may already be too late to stop it.
It CAN and WILL happen to YOU too.


...and THIS is the attitude and political strategy that will help it happen:

"I don't think Obama is going to cut Social Security.
I can't be sure, but either way he's got my vote.

The other guys really suck.

Who's with me?"

If you don't STAND for something,
you will FALL for anything.


[font color=firebrick][center]"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will STAND UP for Working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone [/font][/center] [center] [/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center][/font]

[mattclearing]

248. I came to Australia from the States.

The ACA is a major improvement. The pre-existing condition assurance alone is a major improvement.

I remember what it was like living in the American non-health care system.

I wouldn't try to tell you that the ACA is great. It lowers premiums for some at the expense of higher premiums for others, and it's not anywhere near as good as our single-payer system here.

That said, you don't get to tell me what I can talk about. I'm an American citizen and have been on DU for nearly ten years. I'll say what I want about the American non-health care system and anything else I want. If you don't like it, I'm cool with that.

[Lars39]

251. Tone is everything sometimes...you're being polite.

And I sincerely thank you for that.

[mattclearing]

281. Anytime. :)

Thanks for noticing.

[Aerows]

252. I don't care who discusses what

That was never the point. The point is that those who aren't affected in the slightest by US policies don't have the right to harass, scold, belittle and mock those who ARE.

That's pretty damn simple. The biggest offenders aren't people that are affected by those policies.

[Whisp]

279. And who gave you the right to decide others' rights?

Can't you see how ridiculous this sounds?

I was hoping you would delete this mess...

[Lars39]

283. Hmmm. Lets see, is this "harrass", or "belittle" or "scold"...

[Whisp]

286. I don't think any of those fit for someone telling me to shut up

Insulting, maybe.

[Lars39]

287. More like asking for basic politeness and good manners instead of steamrolling snark.

[Whisp]

288. you replied to the wrong poster on that. nt/

[Lars39]

289. Oh, not at all.

[Aerows]

290. I had a very good reason for posting this

It is because at some point, hypocrisy needs to be pointed out. If you live in a country with universal health care, but then turn right around and bash, mock and belittle people who are struggling under the US health care system for complaining, you are using a double standard. What is okay for thee, is not okay for me, and I shouldn't gripe.

I live under US policy, for God's sake, and I will criticize it when it is necessary. Full stop. I participate as a voter. I pay taxes here.

[Whisp]

294. where have I bashed and mocked and belittled people who are struggling?

as individuals?

I mock the people that complain endlessly about what a fucking bastard Obama is and how he should do this and not do that and he shoulda woulda coulda if he wasn't a lazy wall street ass kissing assasinnator of the elderly and weak. And those that can't figure out how to take care of their own responsibilities instead just barf out that Obama is a piece of shit used car salesman. Yeh, there's lots of deserved mocking for that type - the Koch Bros. commercial type.

But whatever dude, I'm done. I don't know why and what you are up to, but I'm done with it.

[Lars39]

296. Awww. And just when I was getting to know you!

[Aerows]

299. "those that can't figure out how to take care of their own responsibilities"

That wasn't condescending in the slightest, was it?

[polly7]

300. You're right, Aerows ...

I can't imagine the reaction an American or any non-Canadian would be on a Canadian site telling us we needed to privatize our health-care system to make a bunch of insurers in the middle rich, or praising Harper if he'd let it happen. I would FREAK the * out, as I'm sure any other Canadian would. Your OP doesn't come across at all as telling anyone to shut up .. more of an appeal to empathize a bit and show some understanding - much more polite than if the shoe were on the other foot, believe me.

[Aerows]

355. That is all that it was

a plea for understanding. The rancor I've gotten from people in this thread stuns me.

I can't believe it.

[mattclearing]

280. When you tell people what they can and can't say, your point is going to be secondary. nt

[Aerows]

298. Pointing out hypocrisy

is pointing out hypocrisy. Everyone can get shoved over the breaking point. I got shoved over it when people with universal health care in their country repeatedly told people what they couldn't say. We couldn't say we weren't happy with the ACA. We couldn't say anything negative about US policy because it might affect Obama.

That door very much swings both ways. The only reason I voiced this complaint is because far too many of us have been told what WE cannot say without harassment, ridicule and mockery.

[Democracyinkind]

257. As a resident and citizen of a country consistently rated among the top ten of "best healthcare"...

... I totally get where you are coming from. Most of the personal stories that I encounter on DU are simply incomprehensible to me. So I really understand the fury and anger, even if I find some of it wildly misdirected.

[Aerows]

349. $18,000 because I had to get rabies shots

when a raccoon bit me.

That isn't rational, reasonable or anywhere near feasible. It bit me because someone was feeding it, and I admit that I did, too initially, but then an entire pack of them got aggressive. I was reading on my laptop outside and it bit the hell out of my hand.

I guess you can blame me, but I don't know why $18,000 is suitable for about an hour in the ER I *WALKED* into and *WALKED* out of, and then got shots that took up about 5 minutes of time a piece.

It was a damn accident. I admit my culpability in it initially for thinking they were cute. When they got extremely aggressive, I didn't want anything to do with them.

I made a mistake. I'll be the first one to admit it, but it hurts when people continuously ridicule me about it, and now it's an $18,000 that I have no idea how I'm going to pay.

[Democracyinkind]

358. To me that's just absurd.

I have never seen a "medical bill" in my life except for when I pay my dental hygienist, if you disregard the few times that I had minor issues while living in the US. The concept of paying a doctor or hospital is completely foreign to me.

And the fact that some callous asshole ridiculed your situation in this very thread... There's some really fucking lousy people on DU.

[Aerows]

359. One person outright accused me of being a racist

because I criticized our health care system.

I know, I don't know how they arrived at that leap of logic either, except that maybe I'm not supposed to say anything about the US government and the politics in the US because we have a black President. Oh, and that person doesn't even reside in the US.

Such is life.

[Jesus Malverde]

297. The biggest marketers are not consumers of the program....nt

[Whisp]

309. ...

[Lars39]

314. Really now! Shit stirring again.

Now *That* is politely harassing.

[myrna minx]

315. Are you implying that OP is saying this?

This is rather nasty.

[Lars39]

316. Yes, she is.

[myrna minx]

319. Can you imagine the despair of receiving $18,000 US in medical bills

for being bitten by a raccoon and to be ridiculed for not only what happened to you, but for the fact you're not grateful enough to not be covered? Yes, from a previous thread, the OP has said she's on the hook for $18,000 in bills to cover an animal bite. Is that ok? Would that happen where you live? Would you trade places?
Mocking and ridiculing people who are hurting because of the crazy healthcare costs in this country is just cruel, especially if one doesn't have to face the same crippling costs and to imply she's a teabagging racist from the photo you posted is just horrible. This isn't the DU I signed onto in 2002

[Aerows]

327. I've tried to stay above it all

Thank you for speaking up. I've been ridiculed every damn time I talk about the 18,000 hospital bill and have gotten everything from the implication that I'm a piece of shit to I should have just died.

I try to stay out of it, but it is painful when people you think you know on a forum, a community you are part of, go out of their way to harass you.

[Whisp]

336. Just hang on there, sister.

It was you with this OP that is harassing people. According to you I can't have an opinion on topics you decide I can't have one on because I'm not Murkin born. That is, unless I berate the President and the ACA well enough to your liking, then I am sure I would be 'allowed'.

I never said anything negative about your plight or your bill and I never harassed you about your medical problems but I am not going to just walk backwards out of the room with a whimper when you pound at me, for being Canadian, for fucks sake. I said more than once how sorry I was for what you are going through and now you are going to switch it 180 degress and make it sound like I am making sport of your suffering. What the Fuck?

Oh, and one more thing. Number23 is really an American, living in Australia. But you accused her of lying about that. How freaking creepy is That? Look back on this thread and you will see your fine work in full display.

Good lord!

P.S. Don't PM me anymore or I will copy/paste them for all to see.

[Lars39]

340. She has made it plain as day in this thread that it is not where you were living

But how you act....how you treat people. Being obnoxious to people every day here is just not acceptable.

[Whisp]

341. Yes it is acceptable. I'm just a weeny piker compared to some.

Where have you been reading?

[Lars39]

342. And that says it all..."yes it is acceptable"

[Aerows]

354. When you post such a despicable thing

and imply that I dislike "the Kenyan President" you have no need to worry about me ever PM'ing you again.

That is a disgusting personal attack that you should be ashamed of.

It says a whole lot more about you that you post that than it does about me, and the fact that I have tried to reach out to you and was greeted with such an insult. Believe what you want Whisp.

That was an ugly personal attack on my character, and I have never been anything but nice and friendly to you.

[Whisp]

361. I was going to pshop that to Canadyen but was too lazy.

it was to do with xenophobia - which you express here quite heftily - and not racism but whatever. shoot me.

bye.

[Aerows]

326. You know what Whisp?

That is categorically below you.

[Bernie2016]

328. I agree n/t

[Aerows]

329. If anyone is curious why I made this post

Look at the insults hurled, the mockery and the derision levied against anyone that dares speak a word against the ACA. Look at the actions of people in threads that aren't US citizens, chastising them for speaking out about a policy they don't like.

Then see some of those very folks complain when I say they shouldn't speak of it; When they themselves are doing the loudest hollering that we shut up. It's a disgrace in this community. I care for all of the people on DU, but I certainly don't agree with the actions of a few recently.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

330. I thought you (or whoever reported it) might want to see the result of the jury decision

...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4699556

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Accusing a poster of being racist because they disagree with US government policy. Should people stop talking about policy altogether if it falls on the side of disagreeing with the President?

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Mar 20, 2014, 10:54 PM, and the Jury voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Had to read through a lot of crap to get to this point. This is over the top... point could have been made without resorting to losing your mind.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Childish taunt. Intended to shit stir.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Poster is responding to the OP's xenophobia. Nope won't hide.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I'm guessing he's responding to someone who clearly HATES President Obama.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: We are better than this. Disagreement is a GOOD thing. Stop trying to stifle it with false accusations.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Aerows]

331. I don't like being accused of being a teabagger

or a birth certificate searcher.

Everyone on this site that has ever encountered me, including Whisp, knows that is bullshit.

I do take exception to rumors of my belonging to a faction that can't spell, though.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

332. Well, I'm probably more of a lefty than you, however, I have never believed that

throwing out the baby with the bathwater has been particularly brilliant, particularly when the odds of anyone else doing any better than the one in power are nil.

Which brings me to this: We can want to whine all we wish (as if it were going to do a damned bit of good, which it doesn't - all it does is help the Repukes) that's the problem of whoever wishes to whine, but the whining itself, if it aids the enemy, and sounds quite like that of the enemy, you can betcha it's not going to help one iota.

When all is said and done, it is right wingers and right wing propaganda that has brought this country to its knees. It is the cause of this country's suffering. A majority of this country agreed with their propaganda for too many decades, and still a huge percentage of them agrees with their propaganda.

[Aerows]

333. You might be more of a lefty than me

But I'll be standing right beside you on the left.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

334. That's what I want to hear. BUT Rome wasn't built in a day. And burning it down as the RW

has done before, is merely a path of destruction.

[Aerows]

335. For the record

I'm probably to the left of you, but it doesn't matter. I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone that is on the left and wants to improve our nation.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

337. Not to turn this into a pissing contest, but I doubt it! :) nt

[Aerows]

344. Maybe not. I'll still be standing on the front lines

with you. I'm far from perfect. I merely wholeheartedly detest injustice.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

367. We're working for the same thing - to get corporate control out of govt. But to do that...

we have to have a set of successful tactics. Crushing the only resistance (even if it's a piss-poor resistance), only opens the door WIDE to Republicans, and instead of being helpful, that's simply helping the enemy. I'd like solutions that work, and solutions that work attack the evil at its most evil source - the #1 most fabulous lackeys, Repukes. Do that, and everything else will fall into line.

[Aerows]

350. Here's the thing

I like President Obama, but he isn't a panacea for every fouled up system in our government. You are absolutely welcome to praise him, critique him, and I'm sure he can handle both.

When you start bashing the people that live under US policies because they expressly criticize those policies ... That is a different ball of wax.

Mocking, making fun of people and generally being condescending because someone lives under a different health care system than you do (and one you don't understand) while bashing them because you support President Obama doesn't do you or President Obama any favors. I'm pretty sure that if President Obama had the choice of people that support him, or the people that deride, degrade, mock and make fun of people that have valid criticisms about his administration, I think he would pick the former.

If you believe in Obama whatsoever, you wouldn't be in this thread accusing long term DU'ers of being racists, teabaggers and birthers just because they disagree with a certain policy the President has put into place. You wouldn't harass and make fun of good Democratic Party members that always show up at the voting booth and continually tell them they are out-dated and unrealistic.

[LiberalAndProud]

372. Aerows, beyond the intrapersonal exchanges here,

I really am flabbergasted by the medical bill you've been saddled with. I don't have personal experience with negotiating bills down. Maybe someone here does.

I did find this about.com article. Maybe it will point to a way to start. Please refresh my memory. Why did your insurance deny coverage?

[Aerows]

373. I have no idea.

I'll have to dig the denial letter up again. It's ridiculous that you pay for health insurance, but then when you need actual health CARE you get denied.

That is what pisses me off so badly.

[LiberalAndProud]

375. Don't let them deny it without a fight.

I know how frustrating this is. (spitting nails frustrating) I have had experience with getting insurance companies to cover previously denied medical bills. It is possible to do. Don't give up too soon, okay?

And I forgot to include the link I was talking about in my first post.
http://frugalliving.about.com/od/beautyhealthcare/a/How-To-Negotiate-Your-Medical-Bills.htm

[Puglover]

376. How in the flying fuck can an insurance company deny

Rabies Vaccination???????

You get it. You die. Period. Unbelievable.

I got bit by a stray dog (my fault) in Ecuador. I had to go through them a year ago. Never saw a bill.