Federal Judge Tells Women Lawyers Not To Dress Like ‘An Ignorant Slut’

[mfcorey1]

Judge Richard Kopf, a George H.W. Bush appointee to a federal court in Nebraska, offered some strange advice to women litigators in a piece posted to his personal blog on Tuesday: don’t wear clothing that would cause “the female law clerks” to call you “an ignorant slut behind your back.”

Kopf’s comments were a reaction to a Slate piece by Amanda Hess entitled “Female Lawyers Who Dress Too ‘Sexy’ Are Apparently a ‘Huge Problem’ in the Courtroom.” Judge Kopf’s piece has the more provocative title “On being a dirty old man and how young women lawyers dress.”

Among other things, Kopf’s piece reveals that he has “been a dirty old man ever since I was a very young man. Except, that is, when it comes to my daughters (and other young women that I care deeply about).” And it includes a description of a “very pretty female lawyer” who practices in his court. “She is brilliant, she writes well, she speaks eloquently, she is zealous but not overly so, she is always prepared, she treats others, including her opponents, with civility and respect, she wears very short skirts and shows lots of her ample chest. I especially appreciate the last two attributes.”

Kopf’s purpose in describing this attorney was to reveal that several of the women who clerk on his court viewed her as “unprofessional,” and to imply that perhaps a young attorney doesn’t want to incur the ire of a judge’s closest advisers. Whatever the wisdom of this advice, however, he picked a particularly inflammatory way to express it (in fairness, the “ignorant slut” comment is a reference to a famous, if very dated, Saturday Night Live skit).

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/03/27/3419556/federal-judge-tells-women-attorneys-not-to-dress-like-an-ignorant-slut/

[BlackAndBeyond]

1. I saw this story

I saw this story elsewhere. It was actually the female law clerks who calling her unprofessional because of how she was dressed.

[redqueen]

6. It's this asshole talking about women like a misogynist fucking pig.

Based on his attitude towards women I do not accept his assertion that anyone else is the source of his bullshit comments.

[Tom Ripley]

34. +1000 He is using phantom "women" to express his own views

[yardwork]

57. "Some people say...."

[kelliekat44]

46. Hmmm what does a lecher look like and how do they dress? nt

[mercuryblues]

11. I posted

it earlier. There was no woman, it was a composite of women. The blog came off as very pompous. Women have breasts and if they aren't completely hidden from his view, he says the clerks call her a slut behind her back. Yet the clerks who posted in the replies want to know when this happened.

Earlier this week a middle school banned girls from wearing yoga pants because the boys are too distracted. A private middle school kicked a girl out because she looked too much like a boy.

So really what are females supposed to wear?

[ladyVet]

42. Burkas?

So really what are females supposed to wear?

[mike_c]

2. oh for pete's sake....

Fair disclosure: I'm an old white male professor. You kids turn off that damned rock and roll!

[DURHAM D]

3. How 1960s.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

4. It was taken from 60 minutes.

They used to have a short debate called "Point/Counterpoint" between Shana Alexander and James Kilpatrick.

This was parodied on "Saturday Night Live" where Dan Ackroyd would start off calling Jane Curtin
"Jane, you ignorant slut."

[FreakinDJ]

12. Most everyone "Gets it" - SNL parody

just some one has nothing to make hay about

[redqueen]

14. Many forms of oppressive bigotry that were considered socially acceptable 40 years ago are not

considered acceptable now.

I sincerely hope everyone here 'gets' that.

[FreakinDJ]

23. Kind too much PC policing

[redqueen]

29. Complaining about not being able to use bigoted insults because it's 'too PC' is a reactionary,

conservative viewpoint.

[FreakinDJ]

32. For those who see oppression behind every stone

Perhaps so

[redqueen]

33. Men don't get to decide which terms women find oppressive. nt

[FreakinDJ]

35. The damage is done is their mind

Once you go down that slippery slope of seeing oppression behind every rock - the damage is done purely in your mind

[redqueen]

36. Do you say the same about using the word 'gay' as an insult?

Is that also just fine, to you?

[FreakinDJ]

38. Interestng redirect

Have you seen me post the word Gay as an insult

And I'm sure a topic that could generate lots of emotion but not likely on my part

Some how you've missed my point and proven the concept I was discussing in one fel swope

[redqueen]

39. Not a redirect. Just curious why you find slurs against women ok, but not other kinds. nt

[FreakinDJ]

45. I don't find public slurs against women acceptable

But I don't think a National Outcry over a phrase coined in parodey warrented either

Your followers would do better using their energy towards things that actually effect their life in a positive way

[seabeyond]

49. wow. yes. do tell us "followers" how we should approach feminist issues, and only in a positive

manner so all around us can feel warm and cozy.

and ya... using followers, you were purposely trying to be insulting.

[FreakinDJ]

60. Like I said "A boogyman behind every rock"

which is a waste of time and energy and ensures futility

[seabeyond]

61. you and i both know "followers" was an insult. now you want to pretend it isnt. i have a family

of passive agressive. never impressed me and they got pissed i did not play the passive agressive with them. instead of saying it out loud, i was suppose to throw snark with a smile and pretend it was endearing....

eeeeew.

i stick with calling it like it is. just so much easier. though not much fun with the game playing.

[redqueen]

55. It doesn't matter what you think. nt

[FreakinDJ]

59. Now dismissive slurs are acceptable

Your "Double Standard" is very telling

[redqueen]

62. Are you serious? nt

[Scuba]

5. Is well-educated slut OK? How about ignorant prude?

Long black robes are sooo kinky.

[John1956PA]

7. I never thought it was humorous when Dan Aykroyd used that line in the 1970s SNL sketches.

I recall watching those sketches (parodies of the "Point - Counterpoint" segments of "60 Minutes&quot when they were first aired on SNL in the 1970s. The judge must think that the catch phrase was humorous when it was used in those sketches and that he was being witty in invoking it. In my opinion, the judge has revealed himself to be a pompous fool.

[lillypaddle]

8. He's a fucking pig

[redqueen]

9. Sadly, there are a lot of men who share this sentiment.

reveals that he has “been a dirty old man ever since I was a very young man. Except, that is, when it comes to my daughters (and other young women that I care deeply about).”

They know they objectify women and they see nothing wrong with it, despite this obvious disconnect

[AngryAmish]

10. It is stuff like this that makes me wish everyone wore robes.

A very few women lawyers do not dress appropriately. Some male lawyers dress like slobs. No tie, colored shirt, etc.

I am very conservative in my dress. The British system, even down to the robes and wigs, would be awesome.

[redqueen]

16. My preference is that we stop placing so much importace on appearance.

It is superficial and stupid.

[AngryAmish]

17. Absolutely not

Tim Gunn says the way you dress is the way you expect others to treat you. Sometimes for hiking, athletics I dress in almost rags. People do not give me a second look. In a business suit with 350 dollar shoes, I am treated very well.

[Gravitycollapse]

19. That is extremely circular reasoning.

You must dress nice because you need to dress nice. And you need to dress nice because you must dress nice.

It's an empty statement. You haven't said anything.

[The Second Stone]

13. Well, then what is appropriate clothing (if any) for a lawyer in courtroom?

My I, as a male lawyer, show up in a Speedo and nothing more? A Charlie Harper bowling shirt and cargo pants?

I've seen lawyers dress in weirdly inappropriate fashion. It doesn't help persuade.

[Ms. Toad]

21. So long as you're not one of my legal writing students...

I did discuss attire, and the persuasive importance of appearance, with one of my female students when she presented her Supreme Court argument in an extremely low cut top.

I had an odd number of students and had offered to replace the lowest grade of any student who paired with the odd man out - which coincidentally happened to be that young woman. Between court appearances, she reversed her top. Quite resourceful, and responsive!

In all seriousness, just as what one wears, and where and when one wanders does not give anyone license to commit sexual assault or rape - how one appears in court should not influence a decision.

The reality, though, is that just as I make conscious choices every day that make it less likely I will be targeted by someone intent on doing evil - when I am in a courtroom I make choices related to the reality that when I am representing a client, appearance may well have an impact on how I (and my client) are perceived.

[The Second Stone]

54. But it does matter and it does have an effect

Suppose I can get the judge to smile, which I do when I'm wearing my Matlock seersucker outfit. It's a hoot and entirely appropriate. It puts everybody in a fun mood. Including some real sourpusses. Throw in a little impression of Andy Griffith during argument and you can change someone's attitude towards whether they will consider a point.

My professor, more than a quarter century ago, was one of those judges who demanded a dress code by all lawyers in his court. The first thing in argument is to know your audience. And if the way you dress is going to piss off your audience, you dress in a way that will please. It's the easiest thing you can do to put your audience at ease.

[Ms. Toad]

58. That's the reason I pointed it out -

I had already spoken to them generally, as they were preparing for arguments. We talked about how the courts (as a general rule) get more conservative about dress as they get higher up - and this argument was intended to simulate the Supreme Court. Apparently that did not translate into don't wear a top which shows your cleavage almost to your belly button - she seemed honestly surprised.

When I go to court (regardless of whether I am acting in my legal capacity), I always dress up - often in a suit, and often in make-up (the only time I ever wear it). On the days I'm teaching, I dress similarly. Definitely a matter of knowing - and being respectful of - your audience.

Whether it should make a difference or not, it often does.

[The Second Stone]

64. I've never worn make-up in court.

On stage yes, but not in court.

[Shrike47]

53. One of the judges in my county would refuse to sign any orders or judgments presented by a man

not wearing a tie and blazer or suit. People would hand off Blazers in the hall some mornings.

[bloom]

65. The women are not wearing bikinis to court

There is a funny thing going on here with different expectations for men and women. People have certain expectations of men wearing a suit, 'power suits', etc. And as someone else mentioned, some courts have made it more clear what they expect men to wear - requiring coats and ties, etc.

Perhaps the women feel a need to compete in world of laws and also in the female world where certain appearances matter and are expected. For instance, some may feel an expectation to wear makeup - because so few people are accustomed to seeing women how they are look naturally.

This is what I think would be a good compromise - the Salwar Qameez. Men and women both wear pants and a tunic dress. The 'professional expectation could be that of particular neutral colors:

http://www.salwarqameez.com/salwar-kameez-men.htm

Women's versions (which originated with the men's style) have been getting more 'westernized' of late. IOW, lower cut tops, tighter pants.

http://www.fashiontrends.pk/dresses/shalwar-kameez-3/

Not likely to happen any time soon, of course.

[dembotoz]

15. if clothing affects the perception of the lawyer doesn't it then stand to reason that clothing of

accused also affects the perception

or does appearing in an orange jumpsuit give you one strike against you in the eyes of the jury before the trial even begins.

or for that matter what about video arraignment where the accused is seen on a tv just like those evil muthers on law and order.....

[Ms. Toad]

20. That is precisely why people on trial cannot be required to wear orange jump suits.

"the courts have refused to embrace a mechanical rule vitiating any conviction, regardless of the circumstances, where the accused appeared before the jury in prison garb. Instead they have recognized that the particular evil proscribed is compelling a defendant, against his will, to be tried in jail attire." Estelle v. Williams, 425 U.S. 501, 507, 96 S.Ct. 1691, 1694-1695, 48 L.Ed.2d 126, 132-133 (1976).

[Brigid]

18. Maybe the women who appear in court . . .

Should start wearing burquas.

[Kath1]

52. Exactly

I'd show up next time wearing a flannel shirt and baggy jeans.

[BainsBane]

22. I was told we American women have nothing to complain about

because Burundi is poorer.

[The Straight Story]

24. And I was told white males have nothing to complain about it

Because other people are more oppressed.

[BainsBane]

25. Really?

Let's see the quote. If such a statement was made, it certain hasn't stopped white men on this site from complaining. In fact, for some theirs are the only concerns that are seen as legitimate around here. We spent ages hearing about how it was more important for white men not to be reminded of privilege than to actually combat racism. We are continually told that if we expect white men to care about the majority of the population, we need to flatter them and make them feel good about pursuing social justice. Any time an issue related to women is raised, it's called a "gender war" or "flame bait" because some are outraged that women post about the intimate partner violence that strikes 1/3 of us. Why is it that such a post can't be made without a few men throwing a fit to show they see their own egos as more important than the experiences of women subject to rape and other forms of violence? So if someone is telling white men they have nothing to complain about, what exactly is posted on DU now? Who is calling Obama a used car salesman? Who is complaining that he didn't make them feel warm and fuzzy during his speech in Belgium? If you don't believe white men complain about anything around here, I wonder what it is you think you are reading?

Since your contention that white men aren't allowed to complain is so clearly divorced from reality, it appears to me that what bothers you is that anyone raise an issue that doesn't have to do with you. You seem to take exception to the fact that women and people of color speak about issues that concern them at all. If you didn't, why would you make a point of interjecting in these threads to make it about you? Do the concerns of no one else on this planet matter in the slightest?

[Heidi]

31. No. Not really.

Clearly, as no link was provided by TSS.

[Heidi]

26. This judge has posted a follow-up on his blog.

I am including the full blog post here because the judge's copyright notice allows it.

Post Script to yesterday’s (infamous) post

Yesterday, I touched the third rail. I wrote about women, apparel and courtroom attire. It has generated a fair amount of perfectly fair criticism.

In the Omaha paper today there is piece about my post that I urge folks to read. It is written by Erin Grace, and Ms. Grace’s prose is powerful and, at times, beautiful and insightful. (By the way, Ms. Grace tried to call me yesterday afternoon while she was on a short deadline to get my views. I was home and asleep and missed her call. I thank her for the professional courtesy.)

At the end of the article, Ms. Grace writes:

I’m largely a conformist when it comes to office attire — perhaps fallout from years of wearing Catholic school uniforms. And I’ll say for the record right now: Mom, you were right about slips.

But if law students should be remembered for what they say, not how they dress, then that should apply to judges.

The judge has said a lot of good things in the past on his blog. He writes tenderly about his grandchildren. He worries about a seventh-grader recovering from a heart transplant.

And he raises important issues. I want to remember him for those things.

Not for his latest reflections, on being a dirty old man.

I wish to respond but only briefly.

Erin:

I honestly don’t care how you (or others) remember me.* I do care passionately that federal trial judges be seen as individuals with all the strengths and weakness (baggage) that everyone else carries around.

If, on balance, you think the post was harmful to the image of the federal judiciary and truly treated women as objects, I am very, very, very sorry for that, but I would ask you to pause and reread it. I hope you will find upon objective reflection that the mockery I make of myself and the hyperbole and somewhat mordant tone I employed, made a point worth considering.

In the rough and tumble world of a federal trial practice, it is sometimes necessary to see and react to that world as it is rather than as we wish it would be.

RGK

*Here’s an irony: If I am remembered for anything, it will be because I wrote two opinions striking down state and federal “partial-birth” abortion statutes.

http://herculesandtheumpire.com/2014/03/26/post-script-to-yesterdays-infamous-post/

[redqueen]

30. That isn't an irony at all.

Many men who are all too happy to defend a woman's right to bodily integrity remain happily and willfully ignorant of the harmfulness of sexual objectification.

[mtnester]

47. Well, even the second post is all about him.

Adding narcissism, and a patronizing attitude to his misogynist mix created that steaming pile of shit. He won't change, and will fall on his sword to defend it.

[Heidi]

48. Yes, it appears he's digging himself in deeper.

Good morning, mtnester!

[bemildred]

27. Oy. nt

[seabeyond]

28. he should be embarrassed and addressing his "dirty old man" instead of chuckling about it and making

up stories about women.

[Rhiannon12866]

37. Dan Aykroyd, is that you??

[Skittles]

40. love the way he exempts his "daughters and other women he cares about"

apparently only those gals deserve his "respect"

[redqueen]

41. The women he pereonally cares about, he considers human beings.

He considers the women he objectifies to be things, of course.

[seabeyond]

50. and as the study says. relatives, loved ones, friends, misogynists use the side of brain with

connection to people. all other women are seen on the side of the brain that sees a tool. something to use.

[redqueen]

56. Yep. But we can't have a rational discussion of sexual objectification on DU.

So far to go...

[davidpdx]

43. I didn't have to read far to know this idiot should be impeached and disbarred

Then he should be made to eat his robe piece by piece.

[seabeyond]

51. ...

[Lunacee_2013]

44. Ugg, that judge is just creepy. Nt

[whistler162]

63. Interesting rewrite of the judges words.

the consensus becomes several?

"Kopf’s purpose in describing this attorney was to reveal that several of the women who clerk on his court viewed her as “unprofessional,” "

"Acknowledging that the lawyer was really good, the consensus of the sisterhood was uniformly critical. “Unprofessional” was the word used most often."

People you are professionals in a professional environment DRESS THE PART!