bye, Alan Grayson: U.S. Should Be 'Pleased' With 'Virtually Bloodless Transfer Of Power' In Crimea

[uhnope]

Dude has totally lost it.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/grayson-pleased-russia-annex-crimea

Rep. Alan Grayson (D-FL) on Tuesday argued that instead of labeling Russia's annexation of Crimea as "aggression," the United States should be "pleased" that Crimeans established "self-determination" for themselves.

"This is not some new Cold War that's occurring," he said during a Foreign Affairs Committee markup, as quoted by the Daily Caller. "In fact it’s quite the contrary. We should be pleased to see, pleased to see, when a virtually bloodless transfer of power establishes self-determination for two million people somewhere in the world, anywhere in world."

Grayson argued that the Crimeans determined their own fate, and were merely assisted by Russia.

"The fact is from the perspective of the Crimeans, their leader, the one that they placed in charge of their country, was thrown out of power. So it should come as no surprise, as Secretary Kerry recognized, that the Crimeans had had enough, and they wanted to leave this artificial entity called the Ukraine," he said, arguing that former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych was corrupt.

[Autumn]

1. Interesting. I think I will just pull up a chair

[Rex]

10. Yeah I agree, this should be interesting.

[bemildred]

31. Oh Good Lord Yes!

[Renew Deal]

2. I wonder if Grayson also blames Lincoln for the civil war.

I also wonder what he truly thinks of Madoff since it was "bloodless" and peop signed up for it.

[former9thward]

7. Anyone who compares the American Civil War with Crimea

shows a lack of understanding about history, geography, politics, economics, ethnicity -- well just about everything that goes into making a country.

[Renew Deal]

9. OK

well if someone does that you should let them know how you feel.

[WhiteTara]

21. I'll be gentle.

[PowerToThePeople]

3. hmmm.

something is in the air today.

[PoliticAverse]

4. Here is video from C-Span of Grayson's comments...

Last edited Fri Mar 28, 2014, 04:53 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4488111/alan-grayson-opening-comments

[SamKnause]

33. Thank you for the link.

Representative Grayson is such an intelligent man.

It seems the majority of the U.S. government only supports death and destruction, especially when they are the ones causing it.

[karynnj]

57. He might be - but this clip proves the opposite

Seriously - he argues that the fact that the Russian aligned former President being corrupt and the Crimeans having had enough! (He then makes things worse by claiming that SoS Kerry had the same position - which I assure you he didn't.)

I think a high school kid taking a currents event class would have received a very poor grade from that answer.

[riqster]

5. What a chucklefuck.

[KittyWampus]

6. These comments don't seem well thought out, IMO.

[babylonsister]

8. Determined their own fate? One simple google, Mr. Grayson...

Crimea Vote Doesn't Offer 'No' Option For Joining Russia


snip//

NO OPTION

"Even if it (the referendum) were legitimate, the two choices presented to Crimean voters offer them no option for leaving Russian control," wrote Keir Giles of the London-based Chatham House.

more...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/12/crimea-vote-join-russia-ballot-no-option_n_4947557.html

[former9thward]

14. That is false.

Choice 1: Do you support the reunification of Crimea with Russia with all the rights of the Russian federation?

Choice 2: Do you support the restoration of the Constitution of the Republic of Crimea in 1992 and the status of the Crimea as part of Ukraine?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_referendum,_2014

Maybe Grayson thinks people should have self determination and have a choice not to live in the poverty of the economic basket case called Ukraine. By rejoining Russia they get the Russian retirement age (60 for men and 55 for women), a higher minimum wage and pensions that are tripled. Do you demand they stay in poverty?

[jakeXT]

11. The proper way is to bomb the infrastructure with some DU , everyone knows it. /nt

[JackRiddler]

12. The new Hitler must be stopped!

It's an Anschluss!

[JVS]

18. Shame on them for not employing a shock and awe approach.

[Recursion]

25. DU isn't used in bombs

But, you know, DU goes crazy about DU...

[CJCRANE]

13. He's entitled to his opinion

and he makes some good points.

[cthulu2016]

15. Guy struck me as unimpressive well before reading this.

But this does nothing to alter that view

[joeybee12]

16. How can someone who is usually spot on about issues...

Be so absolutely fucking batshit insane about this one?

[stevenleser]

17. Everyone is wrong about something. He's usually right. He's allowed a mistake or two.

This is one of those mistakes.

[joeybee12]

22. Thing is, this is a pretty freaking big one, IMHO...

And stuff like this will come back to haunt him if he ever wants to go national, or even state-wide.

[alcibiades_mystery]

37. "if he ever wants to go national, or even state-wide"

He should concentrate on retaining his seat at the district level.

[joeybee12]

38. Come on, you don't think he wants higher office...

He's pretty much gets himself a lot of face time...IMHO, someone like that is thinking bigger.

[alcibiades_mystery]

40. I don't doubt he WANTS it

Like Kucinich, it's simply not in the cards.

[joeybee12]

44. I agree...nt

[Cha]

65. There was something else big he was wrong on.. trying to think of it..?.. The one where he

made a big deal of agreeing with sarah palin. And, I don't think he's usually right.

Oh yeah.. "Let Allah sort it out"

[joshcryer]

19. He's not wrong.

The USA should be pleased. Putin gained a $300 million a year debt, upkeep of mostly outdated ships, excess pressure on an already strained and close to failing pension system... and virtually guaranteed the new government in Kiev will support the west.

All with less than a handful of deaths attributable to the invasion.

[joeybee12]

23. FFS...yeah, and Putin is now demanding $11 billion back from the

government in Ukraine...yeah, Putin is swell...what is it about so many people who see roses and sunshine in every freaking thing Putin does?

[joshcryer]

24. Please re-read my post.

Putin fucked up. The US should be glad it was bloodless.

Think about it this way, had Crimea had 10,000k dead fighting back against Russia, the US would've been forced to do a lot of sanctions, etc. As it stands now, Crimea is a drain on Russia and in fact reduces Russia's influence.

[joeybee12]

27. I see your point, but Grayson is almost sounding like he's approving

of Putin's actions...this will come back to haunt him next election...actually, I think Crimea is very strategic for Russia's interests...a port and access to oil...Putin may not go after other parts of the Ukraine, but he'll start after the Baltics, again because of the ports, using his trumped up claims of protecting the people from all those pesty fascists that seemed to have shown up overnight.

[joshcryer]

32. Yes, Grayson is a poor politician.

But he's not wrong because what he says is relatively true.

No doubt people will invoke his position in future elections, but he knows he's safe.

He is the 11th wealthiest congress person. Rich plutocrats get their way.

[SamKnause]

36. Why do you begrudge him his wealth ?

He earned it BEFORE he became a Representative of the U.S. government.

He did not get rich off the government teat like the majority of our politicians have.

I disagree, he is an excellent politician.

His money did not save him when the Tea Party and the Republicans went gunning for him.

They spent more money unseating him than on any other politician.

I am so glad after his loss that he ran again and won.

[joshcryer]

59. Because we are a plutocracy?

And Grayson's liberalism doesn't change that fact?

[steve2470]

45. I'm glad I read your post before I responded

Talk about poor framing and a bad sound bite to use against him ! Now he will have to constantly say context context and explain himself thoroughly.

[joshcryer]

63. Doubtful.

As I said, he's rich. He doesn't have to "explain himself thoroughly." He can say whatever he wants, he doesn't have to compromise, he can vote however he wants and he'll be fine. A whole shitload of other Democrats have to compromise. They have to be careful what they say. It's politics.

I'm not maligning Grayson and in fact I'm one of the few in this thread who agrees with him. I merely think he's lucky that he has the advantage that he can speak his mind and it won't affect his electablity prospects.

[steve2470]

70. he has a district in central Florida

I guess you're more optimistic than I am.

[Skink]

20. I agree with him

when Texas succeeds I hope we take it back.

[Hip_Flask]

47. What are they succeeding at?

[Ed Suspicious]

53. Well they aren't, but when they finally do, they'll be welcomed back with open arms.

:Texas-slam:

[Cha]

68. I hope they Succeed at getting

Wendy Davis as their Gov! Boom!

[Skink]

71. yep

[reformist2]

26. I pretty much agree with Grayson on this, almost 100%. Everyone else has "lost it."

I haven't read anything anywhere indicating that the people in Crimea ever wanted to be part of the Ukraine. Pretending that Russia "invaded" them is simply a lie.

[kysrsoze]

29. Agree, and a lot of what I've been reading indicates Ukraine can now to draw closer to Europe

... without so much Russian influence, which is what they want. I don't like the precedent, but it isn't like this is Taiwan or South Korea, both of which countries want nothing to do with Chinese rule.

[TBF]

30. Thank you.

Crimea has always been loyal to Russia. This was not a "hostile takeover".

[joshcryer]

34. Did you ever disavow anarchism?

Because, over time, it's appeared that you have been more supportive of statism. I tend to consider DUers supportive of anarchism at a higher level but I can't say so of 99.99% of DUers lately. I miss those posters I could identify with. It would shock me if you were a statist, but I can't imagine an anarchist being supportive of Russia's annexation of Crimea. Not being critical, as I know many statist Marxists on this forum are all for Russia's invasion.

[TBF]

42. I consider myself libertarian communist -

and I am not a fan of Putin. I hope that helps.

What I do see is that Crimea (most of the east and south) are more supportive of Russian culture/language/history. Overall these folks (most anyway) do not welcome the EU/US. I think it is a strategic move for Russia to have an interest in Crimea's ports (of course) - but I also think it was not a hostile take over. I believe that Crimea was more welcoming to Russia than the EU/US.

Obviously it would be best if Crimea could self-govern without any of these other parties getting involved - that would be the ideal. We are still on the same page there I think.

[ProSense]

28. Congress Approves $1 Billion in Aid for Ukraine

Congress Approves $1 Billion in Aid for Ukraine

By DAVID S. JOACHIM and JONATHAN WEISMANMARCH

WASHINGTON — The House and Senate voted overwhelmingly on Thursday to approve a billion-dollar aid package for Ukraine, two days after Senate Democrats relented to Republican demands that they drop a provision backed by the White House that would have authorized an overhaul of the International Monetary Fund.

The bills, which were nearly identical, passed by 399 to 19 in the House and by 98 to 2 in the Senate. President Obama has said he will sign the legislation, which includes new sanctions against Russians and Ukrainians who provided support to Russia to annex the Crimea region of Ukraine.

<...>

Unlike the president’s executive order last week, the Senate’s sanctions are mandatory and do not grant Mr. Obama latitude to choose which penalties to apply.

The bill also makes mandatory the application of sanctions on any Russian official found to have engaged in corruption in Ukraine, a broader category than any applied by the administration. The Senate measure would give the administration more flexibility to apply economic sanctions to any Russian official engaged in corrupt activity and anyone who assists such activities.

- more -

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/28/world/europe/senate-approves-1-billion-in-aid-for-ukraine.html

[Jefferson23]

35. lol@ merely assisted by Russia. ok then. n/t

[Sassysdad]

39. Rep. Grayson is..

.... invested in Lukoil..Russia's 2nd largest petro company.
Is there a financial motivation to be against sanctions??

[TBF]

43. Interesting perspective -

do you have a link to that?

[Sassysdad]

46. From Huffington..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/25/russia-congress-investments_n_5027322.html
This resource was used a few days ago by another DU poster.

[Whisp]

49. Ow!!!

[Cha]

66. You sure about that?

[seveneyes]

41. Some people won't be happy until Crimea is dragged away kicking, screaming and shooting

To join the EU and Ukraine.

[uhnope]

58. unbelievable post. Kind of Kafka and Orwell all rolled into one

pile of BS

[Cha]

67. One wonders who these people are and why

pushing Russian Propaganda is so important to them?

[uhnope]

69. one wonders indeed. I'm thinking of offering a reward to find proof of paid

posters, or paid callers to talk shows. We have only limited info on them existing, but posts like that one and callers I've heard on some RW talk shows make me strongly believe that the practice is widespread.

On the other hand, people can be jerks w/o any paycheck to motivate them...

[ChisolmTrailDem]

48. "Scooch over Amy, damn!" - Alan Grayson, on location under the bus. nt

[2banon]

50. I don't agree with your point whatsoever, but thanks for the link. n/t

[LittleBlue]

51. We're being asked to pretend that Crimeans didn't want to join Russia

Same as any democratic process that goes against our wishes. We had to pretend Putin doesn't have enough support to be reelected (despite 70% approval), we had to pretend the same about Chavez.

In this pretend universe, we're to believe that Crimeans (who are a majority ethnically Russian) wanted to stay in a basket-case state like Ukraine over joining their larger, wealthier and more powerful motherland.

Whether you think the vote was legitimate or not, it's pretty clear the majority of Crimeans wanted out of a bad situation and into Russia.

[Laelth]

52. I agree with Rep. Grayson, in principle. n/t

-Laelth

[L0oniX]

54. I am glad we didn't start bombing Russia too.

[djean111]

55. Millions died when Pakistan was partitioned from India.

Isn't it possible to be pleased at the lack of widespread violence? I know I am.
And maybe staying in the Ukraine is not that great of a choice. What with austerity'n'shit.

[karynnj]

56. To my knowledge, there is no Kerry comment that comes close to Grayson's claim

and many many comments that are 100% against the Russian action. This is partly because Kerry has far too much intelligence to have a position even close to this mishmash word salad out of Grayson.

Arguing that the Russian aligned Yanukovych was corrupt would be a case for the Ukrainian Parliament trowing him out, which they did. Kerry did give a speech, a week or so before the annexing of Crimea, in Kiev where he spoke of the actions of the Ukrainian Parliament. It was the UKRAINIANS - not the Crimeans - who had enough. Then throw Grayson throws in that Ukraine is an artificial entity - something that really can be said of any country not wholly on one island.

[SidDithers]

60. "as quoted by the Daily Caller" worries me...

The Daily Caller is Tucker Carlson's website. I'm sure that 99% of DU already knows that, but earlier this week I was surprised to learn that there are still DUers, some who consider themselves to be politically astute, who weren't aware of that fact.

IMO, the Daily Caller will spin anything to try to make Dems look bad.

Just putting it out there for consideration.

Sid

[uhnope]

61. thanks Sid. yes Daily Caller is a POS. but TPM seemed confident that Grayson said it

and Grayson is erratic enough to say it. There's also the little matter of Grayson's investments in Russian oil http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/25/russia-congress-investments_n_5027322.html

[PoliticAverse]

62. You can watch the C-Span video of Grayson's comments...

http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4488111/alan-grayson-opening-comments

[joshcryer]

64. Fuck the Daily Caller.

But they did quote him correctly on this issue. I would have, of course, preferred a better source. I'm simply saying for the sake of it.

I personally don't think this makes Grayson look bad, it's probably a rare bipartisan position he'd ever held since the right wing also agrees with him.