Alcoholics Anonymous has a terrible success rate, addiction expert finds

[steve2470]

http://www.thestar.com/life/2014/03/28/alcoholics_anonymous_has_a_terrible_success_rate_addiction_expert_finds.html

A new book concludes that the success rate for Alcoholics Anonymous is between 5 and 10 per cent, one of the worst in all of medicine.

For alcoholics seeking a safe passage to sobriety, there’s a need for something to quiet the siren’s song of booze, and for generations two simple letters — “AA” — have been a beacon of hope.

Alcoholics Anonymous is synonymous with getting help, the church-basement, default remedy for problem drinkers in real life and in the suds-soaked world of TV and movies.

But for years addiction experts have debated the role and scientific effectiveness of AA, a fellowship founded in 1935 that relies on 12-steps aimed at a spiritual awakening. Some viewed AA as old-school, even cultlike. Others hailed it as a bedrock of recovery. Numerous studies have tried to pin down how well AA and the many 12-step groups it spawned, actually work.

[gerogie2]

1. Yes, AA or NA alone will not help an abuser stop using.

A person needs professional help. Often times alcoholics are self-medicating for a mental disease such as anxiety, depression, PTSD or other mental illness. The AA and NA membership looks down at people that use medications for such illness and will often put it down if someone brings it up in the meeting.

[elehhhhna]

159. we see this with teens in recovery constantly

dual diagnosis. Once you treat the anxiety, depression, bipolar or whatever, they can focus on sobriety.

[DesertDiamond]

2. IMO, the reason AA is not effective is primarily because of their "Powerlessness" teaching and...

their stance that one needs to seek an outside power help. The power is in ourselves. What they do is make themselves and the outside power they advocate into crutches. The person seeking help is kept permanently dependent on being at meetings and professing that they are powerless. But the minute they leave the meeting, they're pretty much on their own, and they've been told they're powerless, so... I've known several AA members who went to meetings and then went and got drunk as soon as they left.

[cally]

3. I do not believe that is what AA teaches, at all

It teaches you are powerless over alcohol and need to find a power however you define it that will help you stay sober. We go to meetings to stay sober not to become dependent.

[anneboleyn]

22. Exactly, cally. That idea (powerless over alcohol) is crucial to AA and their approach to recovery.

The meetings are so addicts/alcoholics stay honest and accountable to themselves and others -- not for a "crutch" (as a previous poster stated).

[Bobbie Jo]

59. Exactly

It doesn't work for everyone, and yes, it's essentially trading one dependence for another.....

But, when it clicks for some it can be a lifesaver. I've seen it many times over. Like anything else, there is a major buy-in involved, but generally the presence of accountability on multiple levels is key.

It teaches that you are powerless over alcohol AND that your life has become unmanageable. (as a result).

For some, their "higher power" is the group itself. It teaches addicts to practice honesty and accountability - as addiction is a disease of dishonesty and isolation. Some folks will fight this kicking and screaming to the bitter end.

[NCTraveler]

195. You seem to not understand how AA works.

"I've known several AA members who went to meetings and then went and got drunk as soon as they left." Read and re-read. It's actually funny.

[enough]

4. Very interesting. My father was a lifelong alcoholic who managed to stay away from

all forms of treatment for various reasons. So he never got better. He did keep a good job as a teacher until he retired, and was successful in the stock market. But he drank every day of his life and it was a problem to his wife, his child (me), and his grandchildren.

The strangest thing in this entire life history was this. At the age of 83, he was diagnosed with Alzheimer's Disease. A year after that he had become so difficult that it was going to be impossible for him to continue living at home. At that point he was prescribed Seroquel, an anti-psychotic medicine sometimes prescribed for Alzheimer's.

The day he took his first dose of Seroquel, he stopped drinking forever, without even noticing. This is a person who had drunk himself into oblivion every night for about 65 years. He never had another drink and never even thought about it again. This was sudden, immediate, and total cessation of drinking. I have no idea why this happened, what was the combination of factors.

But it did tell me there must be a lot more complexity to alcoholism than I thought.

[steve2470]

9. a guess here....

Seroquel is an anti-psychotic drug, which also has a powerful anti-anxiety effect. Some people drink to quell their anxiety.

Just a guess.

[enough]

23. Seems very plausible. So why aren't we treating alcoholism with some simililar medication? (nt)

[steve2470]

25. link for you

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4746308

[X_Digger]

5. What do you expect when you treat addiction not as a disease but as a moral failing?

If it doesn't work for you, you "must be fundamentally incapable of receiving help".

Pseudo-religious claptrap that gets foisted on some people per state mandate.

Any 'program' whose last step includes proselytizing is bunk.

[Fred Sanders]

10. AA does not treat addiction as a moral failing, it teaches that alcohol is so powerful

that being addicted to it can not be fought on your own, this power if it is to be fought has to be countered by something even more powerful, each individual needs to seek what ever that is out.

Understanding that power of alcohol is the first main focus not only of AA but all treatment and recovery plans, this power of alcohol recognition which is so carefully avoided in the corporate, media and governmental world.

[Andy823]

18. Exactly!

Way to many people have misconception about the so called "religious" aspect of AA.

[X_Digger]

27. Forgive me, but.. bullshit.

This is why serious addiction research hits a funding brick wall. *A is puritanical, pseudo-religious garbage mixed with group therapy.

Addiction is a mental disease. Would you treat psychosis as something that requires a "higher power" to treat?

[Fred Sanders]

30. Addiction is not a psychosis, you are mixing your apples and oranges, though a psychosis

can lead to self medication through drugs like alcohol.

[X_Digger]

33. Both are mental conditions.

That you refuse to recognize that shows how pervasive the claptrap has become. A program designed by a religious nut that tells you you only they can help you is self-fulfilling garbage.

[Fred Sanders]

38. No need for the angry man persona. Someone is giving you wrong information, read and

Listen to multiple voices, sir.

[X_Digger]

45. I've read the big book, and am friends with researchers who study addiction.

I've listened to converts to the church of AA, I give them the same credence I give mormons.

[cordelia]

50. And you are still clueless.

[X_Digger]

54. Talk to psychiatric researchers who study addiction and addiction treatment.

You'll get a much more complete picture.

[AgingAmerican]

151. When I quit drinking 25 years ago

I went to AA meetings for about three months. They did help me get through the first few months, but I would agree that the religious nonsense drove me away. It was cultish for sure.

[Spider Jerusalem]

81. Addiction is not actually a mental condition, it's a physical one.

At least in the sense of "dependence". An alcoholic who gets the shakes and DTs if they don't have a drink? That's not a mental condition. Neither is a junkie experiencing withdrawal.

[Warpy]

111. Untreated DTs are 50% fatal.

I just thought I'd throw that out there.

Drunks need to be brought down chemically with benzodiazepines to control the alcoholic seizures and reduce the hallucinations and anxiety and antihypertensive drugs to keep the blood pressure from spiking to a critical level.

After that, they're going to need social support to stay sober and AA provides that even if they don't buy all the religious claptrap.

Problem drinkers can quit on their own. Addicts need support.

While I wish Bill W hadn't been a religious nut and had provided people with a more secular program, I've still seen it work. I've also seen it fail.

Fortunately, it worked for family members and it worked for my ex when he finally got sober.

[Warren DeMontague]

185. Yeah, back in the day of my Father and his hardass old-school AA Buddies, it was taken as gospel

truth that an alky had to "white knuckle" it through withdrawls, you know, the old suffering and repentance bit.

Although oddly enough, Bill W's seminal detoxing religious experience as outlined in the Big Book took place under the influence of belladonna, a powerful hallucinogen.

[Warpy]

186. Yeah, I had an uncle like that, the 50s were that weird

and there weren't a lot of options for a chemical detox. Care was supportive, like padding the environment and having oxygen available. If you lived through the hypertensive crisis, you were doing OK and survived to start going to the meetings.

There's just no need for that macho bullshit now and survival rates have improved greatly with treatment.

I'm grateful to the older generation of AA members in the extended family. It made me pretty good at ruining my ex's drinking while avoiding being an enabler.

I didn't know Bill W detoxed on atropine. What a weird choice, there were better things available. Maybe he was really grooving on all the bugs under his skin.

[Warren DeMontague]

187. I believe he references it obliquely in the book- the "so called belladonna cure"

But totally- however you slice it, alcohol withdrawls are nothing to fuck around with.

That link I put elsewhere in the thread- the science around GABA receptors and the like.... I'm not a medical man, but I'm someone who tries to stay informed- particularly about any dragons that may live nearby... It provides an interesting explanation, at least partially, for why the brain's systems go so flippin' haywire with that scenario...

I could be mistaken, but I dont think that information was out there even a couple decades ago.

[elleng]

53. Alcoholism is NOT a mental disease,

it is a primary disease, not a secondary symptom of an underlying psychological or medical illness. and it is inherited.

http://www.lakesidemilam.com/alcohol-drug-addiction/disease-of-addiction-synopsis/

[X_Digger]

57. That's why I said 'addiction', rather than 'alcoholism'.

From your own link:

neurochemical basis of addiction points to the dysfunction of one or more of six major neurotransmitter types as being the basis of the symptoms of addiction, withdrawal, and drug cravings.

[elleng]

61. The link discusses both alcoholism and drug addiction,

but alcoholism is its own thing, it is congenital, cannot be cured, but symptoms only alleviated by entire cessation of use.

'Addiction to alcohol is primarily physiological. Alcoholics become addicted because their bodies are physiologically incapable of processing alcohol normally. . .

Alcoholism: A chronic, primary, hereditary disease which progresses from an early, physiological susceptibility into an addiction characterized by tolerance changes, physiological dependence, and loss of control over drinking. Psychological symptoms are secondary to the physiological disease and not relevant to its onset.'

http://www.lakesidemilam.com/alcohol-drug-addiction/under-the-influence/a-guide-to-the-myths-and-realities-of-alcoholism/

[boston bean]

32. Actually AA teaches alcoholism is a disease.

[X_Digger]

34. Yes, one that is incurable, and only they offer an effective treatment.

It's it's own religion- the one path to salvation is through the grace of AA! Hallelujah Amen!

If you have any doubts about the religiousness of it, check their own 'big book'-

But cheer up, something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics.

AA cured them of their atheism, too!

[cordelia]

43. You don't have a single clue what you're talking about. Seriously.

[840high]

63. You are so misinformed.

[elehhhhna]

160. just stop, you are misinformed

for lots of kids the higher power of their choosing is the love of the group

we have a child in recovery (3 years sober, she's 17 now) and have been deeply involved with her program. she is still not "religious" but she's spiritually aware and how in hell is that a bad thing? Until someone develops something better than the 12 steps, we'll stick with that. (the steps help codependent parents as well.)

[astral]

175. What is your problem

I havent even finished reading this thread and i have got to say something. The AA program of recovery does not require religion. Many people both are and are not religious. The power outside of ourselves is something that we talk about no matter where it comes from. It has to be a power greater than ourselves, for many of us that means God. We tell our story to show others it can be done. We dont all have the same story. You can be a total atheist and succeed in AA. But yes, you will also hear about God. We have no cure for alcoholism, only a daily reprieve based on our daily spiritual condition. The program works for those who want it, who are not necessarily all who need it. Alcoholism kills, sometimes quickly. Withdrawal can and does kill. It may be only one way of many other ways, but it does work. And for that i for one am very grateful. It got me sober and kept me sober even if i didnt do very much of it right.

Learning that i will never beat alcohol is what freed me, and learning that i was not alone, others have done it before me. Even less than 100 percent sobriety is not a failure, in my book, we are better off being on the road to recovery no matter how many times we stumble and fall. If you are not an alcoholic you can never know the hell of wanting it to end but yet it doesnt end. The terror, bewilderment, frustration and despair. But maybe you can understand the sorrow and loss of someone who died from it.

Just do not let contempt prior to investigation be what kills you.

[Warren DeMontague]

181. I would only take issue with where you say "it may be only one way of many other ways"... There is

no "may". There ARE other ways that work for people, do work, have worked.

Telling people that the only reason they aren't happy in AA, or that they mind "hearing about God", or that they are unwilling to convert to a different belief system or reconcile with some semantically palatable version of a mystical force-- telling them that that is because they are unwilling to try hard enough with the ONLY way that works, that they are doomed to 'convert or die' - that is unconscionable, and that is what some people in this thread with experience around this, I believe, are voicing their objection to.

I don't dispute that AA saves many lives, that it works for many people, that even some Atheists or other 'problematic' cases can figure out a way to reconcile themselves with the admittedly core religiosity or spirituality of the program. No doubt, many can and do. And certainly I wouldn't second-guess anyone else's path.

However, one size does NOT fit all. There is no "may be". 12 Step Dogma - it exists, whether or not it is promoted as much as it used to be - that says the steps are the ONLY way to "real" sobriety, is simply not true, not factually correct, not borne out by the experiences of many who have walked a different way, happily, joyously, and freely, even.

Telling people they need to accept AA or die, like I said- I think that's unconscionable. Maybe that is true for some folks, but for fuck's sake folks should acknowledge that there are other programs and methodologies out there, like SMART, LSR, Rational Recovery, Secular Organizations for Sobriety, etc. If the 12 steppers are right, the other programs won't work anyway, so why not hand them a pamphlet or two on the way out the door? A Secular Recovery group, for instance, can't possibly hurt them any more than dying in a gutter would, right?

Like the song says, So Many Roads.

Also, just FYI: It's "half a cup", not "have a cup"

[NCTraveler]

197. Please do not discuss AA. Thanks. nt.

[RandoLoodie]

189. AA teaches alcoholism is a "spiritual malady."

The treatment industry teaches alcoholism is a disease.

[cordelia]

191. AA also recognizes alcoholism as a disease.

[boston bean]

192. pretty much wrong..

AA has no opinion on the medical nature of alcoholism; nonetheless AA is regarded as a proponent and popularizer of the disease theory of alcoholism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholics_Anonymous

The modern disease theory of alcoholism states that problem drinking is sometimes caused by a disease of the brain, characterized by altered brain structure and function. The American Medical Association (AMA) had declared that alcoholism was an illness in 1956. In 1991, The AMA further endorsed the dual classification of alcoholism by the International Classification of Diseases under both psychiatric and medical sections.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease_theory_of_alcoholism

[RandoLoodie]

196. Page 64, Alcoholics Anonymous (The Big Book)

The fourth step refers to this, there are several other references to one's being spiritually sick, in addition to being mentally and physically ill.

The program of Alcoholics Anonymous is contained within the first 164 pages of the Big Book. I suggest you read that and understand it before you start spouting off about AA.

The disease model of alcoholism is an offshoot of the therapy, self-help, and treatment movements of the late 20th century. Those are NOT AA, they are not a program of recovery, and have ZERO ZIP ZILCH to do with the program of recovery contained within the first 164 pages of the Big Book.

[840high]

62. That is simply not true.

[senseandsensibility]

6. AA has literally saved the lives of two close relatives of mine.

Neither are Christian, and they work with their sponsors to find alternatives to the "higher power". One is a Buddhist and the other is agnostic. Both are accepted at their AA meetings. AA is grassroots. It is people helping each other with no profit motive. No wonder it has enemies.

[hollysmom]

141. exactly, no money for others!

[Wounded Bear]

7. One huge problem is....

because of their policy of anonymity, they keep no records. Now, anonymity was a necessity in the society of its era in the 30's because of the social scandal that results from addiction.

Society is a bit more open and forgiving nowadays, and it is at least partly because organizations like AA have achieved some success helping with the problem. One of the big problems for addicts is how it isolates people from normal society. In the end, addicts end up associating with nobody but other addicts. At the least, AA and its child programs like NA try to break that cycle and give addicts a clean place to hang out with people who are not using while they re-adapt.

Just for the record, the AA Big Book has no problem with getting professional help. In fact, it encourages it.

Having said that, I know they tend to overstate their success rates.

[Jesus Malverde]

65. Isn't that key "In the end, addicts end up associating with nobody but other addicts"

In "recovery" they end up associating with nobody but other recovering addicts.

Would a program where people associate with people who live their lives free from alcohol be a better bet. Say instead of a meeting you are involved in sports or some other activity that generates community but with a focus on things other than your addiction.

It seems like if your depressed, because your life is in a crappy situation it would be better to change that situation which is the source of your depression, rather than going to a meeting where you talk about your crappy situation and don't do anything about it. You might feel better "venting" but at the end of the day your still in a crappy situation.

[XemaSab]

74. You've never been part of an adult sports league

My friends are in curling, and half the fun is at the ice rink bar after practice.

[Jesus Malverde]

76. Good point...nt

[Fred Sanders]

8. Alcohol is a poison and the most dangerous drug ever in existence, due to both

it's inherent chemical nature and it's widespread availability and societal acceptance.
Why do you think it gives a hangover, why does it destroy your liver, brain, stomach, intestines etc.? Simply because it is a poison and would be strictly controlled if it were not so addictive and hence so profitable.

And addiction to this most addicting of substances is not a moral failing, that is of course the official government line because if alcohol addiction were to be recognized as a disease, there goes the government and corporate profit margins. Better to bury your head in the sand and call it a personal failing.

And to call AA a failure and a scam simply because it does not work on the majority fails to recognize that NOTHING works on the majority of people suffering openly or silently from the powerful addiction to this awesomely powerful and poisonous drug. The best treatment centres in the world have little more success than AA or anything else. This drug IS that powerful and addictive. It is the most widespread and effective anesthetic ever invented for common use by the common man, on a self regulating basis. It causes more financial and personal damage than all illegal drugs combined.

The power of alcohol, not the powerlessness of addicts should be the focus.

And let's be clear, the book does not criticize AA so much as it focuses on the incredible and widespread addictive properties of this widely and easily available drug.

[raccoon]

119. Thank you!

And to call AA a failure and a scam simply because it does not work on the majority fails to recognize that NOTHING works on the majority of people suffering openly or silently from the powerful addiction to this awesomely powerful and poisonous drug. The best treatment centres in the world have little more success than AA or anything else.

[AngryAmish]

134. May I add that I love booze?

I just do.

[steve2470]

137. .......

[cthulu2016]

11. Seems they are counting everyone who ever went to a meeting

The authors reiterated numbers espoused since AA’s early years as still the “best estimate:” For those who seriously work the program, the success rate is 75 per cent (that’s 50 per cent achieving immediate reward and another 25 per cent who slip then recover). But here’s an important caveat: Of all AA prospects, they say, about 20 to 40 per cent fall into that category of seriously trying the program. ... That leaves a lot of people not succeeding, likely dropping out.

[Andy823]

26. Yes

"That leaves a lot of people not succeeding, likely dropping out."

This is true, many do drop out, but the same thing goes for those seeking just professional help alone. If you don't want to stop drinking nothing is going to help you. It has to be you that makes the choice to stop or keep on the same path. Sadly way to many "drop out" and never get the help they really need.

[Demo_Chris]

12. The basic premise is that you are an alcoholic and that this cannot be cured...

You drink because that's what you are. The various 'steps' exist to help overcome the stumbling blocks that often cause people to return to drinking or using. Viewed from the perspective of a non-addict they make little sense and perhaps seem counter productive. That's okay, the program wasn't designed for you. AA is a self funded program that has helped tens of millions of alcoholics claw their way out of the depths of hell. It can't cure an alcoholic, but it doesn't make that claim. For millions of alcoholics that's more than they dared hope for.

[steve2470]

13. my 2 pennies

1- First problem is, is someone really an alcoholic ? Not everyone is who drinks a lot.

2- Alcohol is a very nasty and very addictive drug. If you're physically addicted to it, cold turkey withdrawal can kill you, if you're too physically vulnerable.

3- The alcoholic has to really want to quit. Not an easy thing, by a long shot. Can people do "controlled drinking" ? The debate rages.

4- Some meds here used in treatment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholism#Medications

[nomorenomore08]

165. One definition of "alcoholism" would specify actual physical dependency as a requirement.

Whereas another definition would be broader, e.g. excessive drinking which negatively affects a person's life.

Some people drink heavily (compared to the average person at least) yet aren't adversely impacted by it.

And yes, alcohol withdrawal can kill you. So can benzodiazepine (Valium, Xanax) withdrawal for that matter.

#3 is also true. "Willpower" may be overrated by some people, but is still an important (though not the only) factor.

[Andy823]

14. It worked for me

And countless others that I know. If a person is not ready to stop with their addiction, then nothing is going to work, period.

As for the professional help, if that professional is a recovering alcoholic then I am OK with that, but way to many so called professionals have never been through what those of us who are alcoholics have, and in way to many cases their "program" does not work for us. You can tell someone how to "fix" themselves, but the real problem is we are all individuals and what works for one person may not work for others. I know many alcoholics who went to professionals for help, ones who had no idea what they were going though and the never did stop drinking.

I have sat through many AA meetings and if you really "want" help you can usually find that help from listening to others who have been there and gone through the same things you have. You learn that you are not the only one who has felt like the only answer is to drink.

I have been sober for 29 years this coming October and AA put me on the right track. I spent two years getting a degree in substance abuse counseling along with others like me who had stopped drinking with the help of AA and wanted to do more to help others. The twelves steps helped all of us get on the right track and to take things one day at a time.

I lost my sister on March 17 of this year. She had a drinking problem that let to poor health and like a lot of alcoholics she smoked way to much. She got sick, it turned into pneumonia, she tried to self medicate with booze, and she didn't make it.

Alcoholics never get cured, they are only one drink away from going back no matter how long they have been sober. I think a combination of AA and professional help is a good idea, but as I stated above, the person you get the help from should be someone who has been through the ordeal and knows the problems you are facing.

AA really does help if you want to work the program.

[steve2470]

16. excellent post nt

[Andy823]

24. Thanks.

I believe way to many people do not really understand what AA is about, or how it works for those need help. Support is the best thing people need when they think they have a problem. Way to many times when I tried to stop for short periods, the reason I started was because my "drinking" buddies convinced me I didn't have a problem. AA helped me realize I did have a problem and started me down the road to sobriety.

[Fred Sanders]

31. All you say is true for many, but for many it was the mental illness that came before

the addiction, for others it may be the addiction that evolves into the mental illness. Chicken or the egg first? Then treat what came first.

[840high]

64. Thanks for sharing.

[elehhhhna]

163. thank you, with love and gratitude from Texas

and a belated welcome to DU Andy

[Vashta Nerada]

15. They need to get the god shit out of there.

[Andy823]

20. There is no God shit in there.

The "higher power" is what you make of it, they do not force any kind of religious beliefs on you to be in AA.

[Warren DeMontague]

35. Sorry, but that lord's prayer at the end of the meeting alone pushes a lot of Atheists out the door.

Look, AA and the 12 steps are what they are- and that's great for the people, and there are many, for whom they work.

For many others there are other things that work, that also have success rates comparable to AA. Secular sobriety groups. Rational Recovery. REBT emotive therapy and addictive voice recognition.

I only have a problem with the 12 step approach when it is presented dogmatically as the ONLY route to sobriety. That people who are suffering are told they MUST have some sort of spiritual experience or reconcile themselves to some semantic contortion of the word "God", to begin to get better. I am sure for some folks that may be the case, others however may do FAR better via other means.

That is a truth many people may not hear in an AA meeting- that, yes, there are other ways that also can work.

Furthermore if courts are mandating 12 step attendance (something many 12 steppers themselves oppose) they MUST make secular alternatives available as well.

[cally]

42. Unfortunately, many of the other programs do not have many meetings each week

and many/most? alcoholics in early sobriety need a group meeting each day. The studies I have read about recovery is that the most successful programs for recovery have a group support group component that meets regularly.

[Warren DeMontague]

46. A few points. One, regular meetings work and help SOME people.

Certainly in early sobriety it can help many people immensely to communicate with others who have "been there", because there is a level of shared understanding.

However secular groups DO have many meetings, also many unbelievers manage to grit their teeth through 12 step meetings until they can find something that better gels with their belief systems.

Rational Recovery and other AVRT based programs emphatically oppose the idea of becoming dependent upon meetings or group support. Other groups like LSR and SOS emphasize the availability of meetings and support without making it crucial for everyone. And now that we are in the age of the internet, support is available 24 hours a day, pretty much anywhere.

The important thing to emphasize is that one size most emphatically does NOT fit all- unfortunately, that piece of incorrect "shop-worn wisdom" is still pushed in too many AA meetings, IMHO.

[Andy823]

51. Some don't like the lords prayer

But I don't know many who left, or would not attend because of the prayer at the end of the meeting. Sure there are other things that can work, but support groups of people who have gone through the problems of being an alcoholic help. For a lot of people I knew the problem with some of the other ways was that those who ran some of treatment programs had no idea of what addiction was like. They simply went to school and were told how to treat anyone that may come to them with an alcohol problem and that was the only way they knew how to treat alcoholics. Some of the court mandated programs in my area were with people who lumped everyone into the same group. If they were ordered by the courts to go, then they had to follow the program that was offered even if wasn't really working. Needles to say once their mandated time was up, they went right back to their addictions.

Myself I did alone until I went to AA. I really doubt that I would be going on 29 years of being sober today if I had not went. My years in college taking a course on addition treatment helped me considerably, that I will admit, but I was also taught by a man who had been an alcoholic and stressed that a combination of AA and treatment worked better than one or the other. Support groups work for many disorders and problems, and being around those who are going through the same things you are helps a lot.

The twelves step program really helps, but it's not pushed as the only way to sobriety, at least not at the meetings I went to. I was always told that your "higher power" was what you wanted it to be, it didn't have to be God.

Each person has to decide for themselves how to get the help they need, and then decide to stay on that path of sobriety, or go back to the way things were before. If someone went off the wagon in AA, they were welcomed back with open arms, no judgment was made on what they had did. On the other hand if you were court mandated to go to a out patient treatment program and fell off the wagon, you usually need up back in front of the judge, who was usually not to pleased with you.

[Warren DeMontague]

56. And some people are walking, talking, internet-posting *proof* that other ways work BETTER, for them

Some people have heard the semantic fudging around the word "God" and the 12 steps and the lord's prayer, and heard a lot of authoritative talk as to how "eventually" they would see the light.

Some of those same people did way fucking better staying well the hell away from that book, and those rooms.

Some people who haven't picked up a drink since Bill Clinton was in the white house, may have stopped taking the authoritative prognostications of doom from 12 steppers seriously, a long time ago.

Different paths work for different people. Absolutely.

[DonViejo]

60. In 38 years, I've never been to a meeting

where anyone was forced to participate in the saying of The Lord's Prayer. And I have seen people decline to participate, there was no backlash against those folks.

[Warren DeMontague]

82. No, but claiming "oh it's not religious at all".. baloney. There are semantic contortions SOME are

willing to go through to get past the "G" word or to change it into something they find palatable. And that's fine- for them.

As I've said numerous times in the thread, AA works for some people, and that's fucking AWESOME.... for those people. But there are ALTERNATIVES to AA that do NOT involve the 12 steps or a "higher power" that ALSO work for OTHER people.

I respect anyone who gets sober via whatever road works for them. What I don't particularly like is when people claim there is only one "real" way to do it. They are wrong.

[get the red out]

133. I have seen the opposite

I have seen people told they won't stay sober if they don't say it at the end of the meeting because they are trying to be special by not saying it. There are unofficial "denominations" in my experience.

[get the red out]

129. It is pushed as the only way in my experience

I have seen the steps pushed as the only way to get sober for my 21 years in Recovery. I am in the south, don't know if that makes a difference. I have to be honest here, even though I am a member who has done the steps and the service; I was sober but suffering terribly until I got professional Psyological help. I do not agree that alcoholism was a separate disease for me. I self-medicated severe anxiety disorders and depression. I had both of those in childhood.

Also, when I had about two years a very fundamentalist type of AA came into my area on the heels of a workshop by some famous AAs. This shit scared me to death, every word is scripted, people are condescending, the devotees claim to have the real program. Fundys in full. There are some meetings in town where they might as well be speaking French for how little I understand their special language.

I apologize if my experience is offensive to people, that is not my purpose. And yes, I am a real alcoholic.

[Mariana]

149. Aren't people who stop drinking but don't do the steps

called derogatory names by some of the people in AA? "Dry drunk" or something like that? As if no one can ever really be sober unless it's done through AA and the twelve steps.

Fundies are scary no matter where they are. I don't blame you for being creeped out by them.

[get the red out]

155. Yes they are

I think people in AA compromise the effectiveness of mutual support with extremism and labeling.

[politicat]

145. Anecdotal from my years in public mental health

I don't have hard numbers to back this, but when I worked for the county, about 85% of my caseload was court-ordered, and most of those had substance abuse problems. Most of those were on mandatory daily meetings (or mandatory dailies were a possible escalation if they had a violation). I also worked in the county that is home to the heaviest concentration of fundamentalist, evangelical Christian organizations in the US.

A significant proportion of my clients had underlying mental health or mental injury scars that we were just starting to heal, but one of the instruments that had been used to inflict abuse on quite a lot of them (especially the women) was what we're now starting to call spiritual abuse -- the use of religious attitudes or practices to cause harm. Spiritual abuse takes a lot of forms and we're only now starting to talk about it, but things like complimentarianism, purity culture, demonism, intellectual suppression, religiously influenced corporal punishment and social isolation all cause enormous harm.

When these clients were required to attend *A meetings with a more strongly religious flavor (some meetings are more overtly religious than others) due to scheduling or proximity, we had significantly higher non-compliance issues from those clients who had difficult religious/spiritual experiences in their past. We never had sufficient data for a study (mostly because confidentiality) but we had enough to go to parole/probation/DA and make a strong case for not requiring *A, and making non *A programs equivalent. We also managed to get a *A variant running that specifically did not criticize psychotropic and neuroleptic meds because when the abused substance was abused to provide (temporary and insufficient) respite from symptoms of mental illness/injury, the *A error that all drugs are bad is actively harmful. (People with panic disorders do in fact need anxiolytics; people with bipolar disorders need mood regulators; telling them that their meds are a crutch doesn't help. People with broken ankles need crutches; just because the injury is all in one's head doesn't mean it's not real.)

The religious/spiritual component of *A can be comforting for some people, but for others, it is traumatic and an unnecessary retraumatization that makes recovery and therapy less effective, if not impossible. Many people who have experienced spiritual abuse are not even aware that what they experienced was abusive (until it's pointed out), or don't have the skills to articulate how they were damaged, but they can still be re-triggered and re-traumatized. That's why making it required is a huge problem. It's mandating a one-size solution to a far more complicated problem and makes the other parts of the recovery process harder (and more expensive and more prone to failure.)

Of course, given that county, and that community, those with the political and financial power wanted those without TO fail, so it might not have been an innocent and well-meaning error.

[nomorenomore08]

166. "We're only now starting to talk about it." That's the thing - how do you name a problem

when you don't even have the words to describe it? But merely identifying it for what it is, is a necessary first step.

And I emphatically agree that a "one-size-fits-all" approach doesn't work.

[get the red out]

193. Wonderful post, thank you

I think you are correct. Also, I began recovery with a huge amount of self-hatred, at first some of this was relieved by finding I was not "the worst person in the world" and other people had experienced things I had experienced. But after a time the constant droning on about how all alcoholics were "selfish and self-centered with self-centered fear", and that everything that happened was because of something the alcoholic had brought on through their character defects, and that we were ego driven and thought too highly of ourselves etc... kept me from getting past a certain, still quite low, point in healing.

I was one who simply could not memorize the many prayers we were encouraged to memorize in the "Big Book", they made me extremely uneasy. My parents believed in a very condemning form of Christianity and I still had echoes of that in my head.

[politicat]

202. That destruction of self is one of the things I personally have huge issues with in the *A model.

It's not like people with substance abuse issues don't already have destruction of self as a comorbid issue. Making that worse by damaging the intrinsic value of self can't help.

I used this thought process a lot -- you are the only person on the planet you absolutely must have in your life. Your opinion of yourself is important, and since you have to live with yourself, you better be a good friend to yourself. You're also the only person you can change, and you are worth changing for yourself. That's not selfish -- that's appropriate.

I'm glad you've found a system of thought that works for you. You have my best wishes and thoughts for your continued healing.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

68. I tell folks

if they don't want to say the prayer, don't say it. No biggie. And I also believe if people let the God idea c hase 'em out, booze will chase 'em back in , if they are alcoholic

[Warren DeMontague]

69. And that attitude is exactly what I'm talking about. News Flash: There are other alternatives.

Rational Recovery. AVRT, REBT. Secular Organzations for Sobriety. LSR. SMART Recovery.

One size does NOT fit all.


PS. How long does someone need to wait after being "chased out by God" for an acknowledgment that maybe that particular Absolutist Aphorism isn't going to apply?

If a serious alcoholic gets "chased out by God" and proceeds to get and stay sober by non 12 step means for 5, 10, 15 years, is there a point at which you might acknowledge that maybe that's not a universal truth?

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

88. You are correct.

I should have said, 'if you want to come back AA will be here'
We don't chase people and drag them in, we don't go to bars etc and recruit. If a person can stay sober another way, that's great. I don't understand the statement about a 'universal truth' Where do you find that in AA literature?

[Warren DeMontague]

94. I'm talking about attitudes I have heard expressed by some 12 steppers- certainly not all.

And, according to someone downthread, the conventional wisdom as expressed in meetings today may have changed from how it was 2, 3 decades ago. If so, that's great.

I have certainly heard expressed incredulity that other methods exist, other methods work, I've also heard tautological reasoning that the 12 steps are the only thing that will get an alcoholic really sober, because anyone who does it without working the program either a) wasn't really an alcoholic or b) isn't really sober. It's simply not true.

Many roads, same destination. I salute anyone who finds something that works for them, because active alcoholism is a shitty deal.

[Warpy]

112. Yeah, the Baptists force that shit down everybody's throat in NM

They didn't do that in Mass.

[Warren DeMontague]

114. I also know that there is a big range, philosophically, among meetings.

Someone committed to going the 12 step route- and really, while I encourage particularly Atheists to explore the alternatives, AA is still the big kid on the recovery block- ought to poke around and find a group that is philosophically simpatico. Absolutely.

[Mariana]

146. They want to get to people when they're most vulnerable. nt.

[hollysmom]

142. ? are you easy to push? ...

heck if the lord's prayer could have pushed me out the door, I would have never gone to school since it was required through high school. I would not have attended a lot of things that I attended. Public meetings. Actually, I remember the serenity prayer but not the lord's prayer at meetings. And the serenity prayer is a lot like the pledge of allegiance, just something someone made up.

[Warren DeMontague]

143. Er, I'm not personally big on prayer, no.

But I'm speaking in generalities.

And FWIW, I don't know where you went to High School, but prayers absolutely don't belong in public schools.

The important thing, here, is that there are secular alternatives to AA for people who want them. For the people for whom AA works, I think that's great.

But it's not the only way.

[hollysmom]

144. sorry, I am just really old what was is not what is. n/t

[stevenleser]

147. There was an article in one of the papers here in NYC that there are atheist AA gatherings here

that are fairly popular.

[Vashta Nerada]

55. What's with the "Lord's Prayer" then?

I suppose it's just a long way of saying "goodbye", isn't it?

[Warpy]

126. Protestant or Catholic version?

Didn't think about that one, didja?

[applegrove]

70. Accepting a higher power, in my case

nature, is what has given me a strong AA quit. Admitting you are powerless over alcohol gets rid of the biggest delusion alcoholics have.

[lumberjack_jeff]

117. AA works for my atheist brother. n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

120. It works for a lot of people. Including Atheists who can reconcile with a definition of God or a

Higher Power which still gels with their philosophical worldview. That's great.

I have my own opinions as to why those perspectives- powerlessness, offloading the need or decision making to an external force- can be helpful with many, particularly in early sobriety... but for people who sincerely believe a mystical force is involved, I have no interest in debating or trying to contradict their personal experience. Again, whatever works and I salute anyone who gets out of the absolute shithole that is active alcoholism, by whatever means.

I think for many people- both inside and outside AA- Buddhist detachment or similar ego-escaping or transcending perspectives can achieve a similar goal.

That said, my only point throughout this thread is to mention that there ARE alternatives to AA and the 12 steps, and they work for lots of people too.

[get the red out]

138. There are

I am in AA and I agree with you, people deserve to hear about alternatives. We also need more research.

[Warren DeMontague]

140. Indeed.

And I certainly am not interested in second-guessing what works for someone else. I've known a bunch of people whose lives have been saved in those rooms.

[Douglas Carpenter]

17. this is anecdotal - but the two most severe alcoholics I have known - quit drinking through AA

I think some are looking for something to attack

[steve2470]

19. AA definitely works for some

Others need to go to Rational Recovery, etc. Some just quit (anecdotal reports).

[astral]

176. One time a rational recovery meeting

Set itself up next to our AA room, more or less the same timeslot. A few of us wandered in there before our meeting to check out the general tenets of the group, but there were only the two chairpersons waiting for someone to show up. What i recall is, you dont need God, you dont need to keep going to meetings, and eventually you can drink again in moderation.

We kidded that all you need to start another meeting is a pot of coffee and a resentment. The r.r. Group never got off the ground there, as far as i know.

There are some black and white opinions in the rooms of AA, but those are personal opinions, but based upon experiences that people have. 'if you want what we have you have to do what we did' but the way people say the program works has been morphed and diluted a bit over the years. Human beings will do that. Thankfully the written instructions are still intact for those who want to follow them.

It baffles me how antagonistic people can get about it here. If you want it come on in, if you dont go ahead and leave, if you change your mind come on back. Do what we tell you or dont do what we tell you. That pretty much covers it, so why all the anger? Remember it wasnt AA who started the court ordered attendance.

[Warren DeMontague]

183. Whatever that was, it probably wasn't Rational Recovery.

RR doesn't have meetings. They also don't promote the idea that alcoholics can drink in moderation, AFAIUI.

http://rational.org

Are you going to use again in this lifetime, or are you not?

I don't know, I find Trimpey as dogmatic as some 12 steppers, but in a different direction. However, RR is absolutely abstinence-based. I would say that the one must have feature of all legit recovery programs, be it RR, SMART, SOS, LSR, etc. (links below) are that they are abstinence based and state flat-out that an addict needs to abstain, that "moderate use" is a chimera and a false hope which must be let go of for recovery to proceed.

The only recovery "group" I remember reading about that suggested alcoholics might be able to drink moderately, was one called "Moderation Management" or something... they had an exceedingly shitty track record, probably not too surprisingly. But to suggest that "you will be able to drink in moderation" is a tenet of any of these other programs, is a flat-out falsehood.

I will say this- if you acknowledge that recovery via AA and the 12 Steps, by your own estimation, involves "needing God", are you REALLY confused as why some Atheists have a problem with it?


http://www.smartrecovery.org/

http://lifering.org/

http://www.sossobriety.org/home.html

[Mariana]

148. If it never worked for anyone, it would have vanished

a long time ago. The number of alcoholics and problem drinkers is huge. Even if it's true that only a small percentage of them stop drinking with AA, that still adds up to a hell of a lot of success stories.

[Ohio Joe]

21. "one of the worst in all of medicine"... AA is not medicine...

It is support.

It is not perfect but... I don't really see it causing any harm either.

[Warren DeMontague]

37. It only causes harm when alcoholics are told it is the ONLY way that works.

And furthermore they are told that they will need to reconcile themselves with some form of "God", however semantically broad that definition may be, to stay sober.

Some people, that may be true for. But there are secular alternatives to AA which also work for many.

[aikoaiko]

28. AA is a fellowship helping others live a better life and its free.

At the root I find that admirable even if there are other imperfect aspects of the model

[loudsue]

29. Alcoholics Anonymous has a terrible success rate, addiction expert finds...so does the alternative

doing nothing doesn't help, either.

But for the people who let it work for them, it is a LIFE SAVER. If it saves one life, it is better than the alternative.

[Warren DeMontague]

36. And yet you have presented a false dichotomy.

There are other alternatives besides 12 step groups and "doing nothing".

[cordelia]

47. Yes, there alternatives. And AA says to seek those alternatives if AA does not

work for you.

[Warren DeMontague]

48. That is good.

Maybe the messaging has changed around that, since a few decades ago. Good to hear.

[cordelia]

52. I was very anti AA. Until I needed help and gave it a chance. So far so good, but

there are no guarantees.

The success rate is very low, but I believe it may be comparable to other programs.

What matters is that people with any addiction get help. Just try and find something that works for them.

[Warren DeMontague]

58. I had a family member whose life was saved by AA, at least until the smokes killed him.

I also have another who did way better via other means... and hasn't had a drink for well over a decade.

Sometimes he thinks about dropping in for one of those "X" chips, just for the hell of it.

[davidpdx]

177. Another terrible way to go

My father died for the same reason. It is tragic that the family member overcame one addiction only to be killed by another.

[Warren DeMontague]

178. Yeah, I'm very glad I never picked up that particular habit.

Seems to be an exceedingly difficult one for many people to shake.

I am sorry for your loss.

[davidpdx]

180. It's never too late to quit

[Warren DeMontague]

182. Totally.

Seems to me though that most people start smoking cigarettes when they're in High School, abouts. I was too busy smoking pot, at that time, to smoke anything else. And when the time came to quit that, it was a piece of cake.

I was lucky, in that regard. Tobacco always struck me as vile.

[davidpdx]

184. Both my parents smoked

I had to breath that vile stuff for 18 years of my life. Never had a inkling to smoke in my life and never will because of it.

I've noticed here in Korea the men go outside to smoke. My guess is their wives tell them if they are going to go do it then smoke outside.

[get the red out]

170. I have never been to a meeting where people said that

Every meeting I've been to for 21 years has said that AA is the only answer, that or "jails, institutions, or death". I know that is only my experience, but it is the prevailing opinion in my area.

[RandoLoodie]

190. Are you saying there are only two alternatives?

sel-fulfilling prophecies are woven from such stuff.

[loudsue]

199. Wow! You can read things that don't exist! That's quite a talent!

No. I'm not saying that.

AA works for those who let it work for them. There are many alternatives to AA, and if you research them (not falling for their advertising hype, but find out the real numbers), many of them have success rate numbers that are very similar to AA. Addicts frequently need something to provide stability while their lives tend to spin out of their control. AA provides that, if the addict chooses to work it.

Alcoholism is a disease of addiction. There are some addictions that have a better chance of being beaten than others, but a person usually has to find a solid surface to stand on to beat that addiction. AA provides that as well as any of the other options, and is far more accessible than any other option -- all across the country, in almost every town, there are AA meetings. The success rate, or lack of success rate, is not the "fault" of the AA program, which is what the OP title suggests.

I'm saying that, compared to doing nothing, AA has a huge success rate. Compared to the other options, that are not so readily available or accessible, it has saved many more lives, and their families through AL-ANON.

[Hip_Flask]

39. I always heard the success rate was crap... but better than other alternatives...

Personally I rather be a soak than be dependent on spiritual gobbledey gook...

[nomorenomore08]

167. Everybody picks their poison in life, I guess...

[yardwork]

40. It worked for me.

Almost 14 years sober here. I rarely go to meetings now. I never really worked the steps. But AA gave me a structure that enabled me to quit. In those early days of sobriety, when I had gone back to drinking so many times, AA gave me a reason not to pick up a drink.

[etherealtruth]

110. Awesome

I am always heartened when I read about someone that has been sober for years. My 18 years old has had trouble with alcohol (read is an alcoholic) for two years. Your story reminds me it can be done (not easily, but it can be done).

[yardwork]

121. I know someone who got sober when he was fifteen

He's a physician now. I send blessings to light the way for your son.

Have you visited any Al-Anon meetings?

[etherealtruth]

124. Thank you

I will add my wishes for continued strength on your journey.

I have attended meetings associated with my son's addiction treatment (family support)... Al-Anon is probably something to consider

[yardwork]

125. Thank you.

[Warren DeMontague]

41. Links: A few alternatives to AA and the 12 Steps (there are others)

Just in case anyone is interested.

http://rational.org/

http://lifering.org

http://www.sossobriety.org/home.html

[U4ikLefty]

77. SMART Recovery is another great AA alternative that provides tools to help in recovery.

The 4-Point Program offers specific tools and techniques for each of the program points:

Point 1: Building and Maintaining Motivation

Point 2: Coping with Urges

Point 3: Managing Thoughts, Feelings and Behaviors

Point 4: Living a Balanced Life

This is a great program. There are face-to-face meetings, daily online meetings, a message board and a 24/7 chat room. It's all free. You can pay $10 for the workbook, but it's not necessary because most of the stuff is available free online.

I do SMART and it was the answer after AA didn't do it for me. Great people both online & in person...I'm so grateful for their support.

Check them out here: http://www.smartrecovery.org/

[Warren DeMontague]

79. Right, thank you, couldn't remember the name of that one!

I was under the impression that SMART also incorporates some of the same ideas, like AVRT or addictive voice recognition training- that RR does.

[U4ikLefty]

83. RR is an AVRT-based approach that shuns meetings. SMART as larger focus and has both face-to-face

and online meetings. I like SMART because they provide tools that empower people to control "addictive" behavior. It teaches empowerment over ones behaviors, SMART stands for Self Management And Recovery Training.

I clicked with me because:

1) It didn't seem like a $$$ thing (I dropped a total of $10 for the handbook & didn't really need to, just to lazy to print the free PDFs)

2) They offered meetings when support is needed (a positive part of AA), both online, in-person and a 24/7 chat. It doesn't make them a main focus and some choose to not attend meetings.

3) Their approach was science based and made more sense to me. I wasn't hopeless, I was just a weekend-warrior who needed help in stopping some self-destructive behavior. SMART gave me the tools.

4) They do not discourage use of other methods along with SMART. Many SMARTies attend AA meetings well as SMART meetings.

If people are having problems with self-destructive or "addictive" behavior, I encourage them to find what's right for them...and don't give up!!!

[Warren DeMontague]

84. Totally.

Personally Trimpey (RR) always struck me as a bit too dogmatic in a different direction.

I'm also very interested in the chemical, physiological underpinnings of something like alcohol addiction. It's plenty clear to me that there is something genetic going on. 12 Steppers have never been able to convince me that there is a genetic predisposition to what their literature repeatedly calls a "spiritual malady"

Anyway, glad you found something that works for you!

[kydo]

44. It worked for me for 13 years and counting

[cordelia]

49. It's worked for me for nearly 4 years. This guy's trying to sell his book.

[pipoman]

161. And pharmaceuticals

[pipi_k]

66. Personally, I think this "expert"

is full of shit.

Like quite a few others here, I've known a lot of people who were able to stop drinking with the help of AA.

As they say in the program, "It works if you work it".

If you don't seriously work the program, it's not going to work.

Period.

End of story.


Also, I'd like to know where he's getting his alleged statistics from...maybe people who gave up too soon. Or didn't do what they were supposed to do in order to recover.

Granted, no program is going to be 100% successful.

But AA has been around since the 30s. The lives of literally MILLIONS of people have been changed for the better.


And since it's an anonymous program, maybe he didn't get the full count of how many people AA has helped. Because, it's...you know...anonymous.

How can anyone figure out how, and if, something is working if they don't even know how many are actually being helped?

So yeah...I think he's full of shit.

[Warren DeMontague]

71. It works for some people. Other things work for other people.

Problems arise when it is promoted as the ONLY way that works, for everyone.

It is not.

[pipi_k]

109. The problem I have with

some other methods is that they promote the myth of "cure".

There is never a "cure" for addiction. I'm not an alcohol addict, but I am a cigarette addict. I've been cigarette free for almost 18 years, but I'm not cured.

Anyway, I'll agree with you that some other methods might work for other people. But it's possible that AA might have worked for those people if they had done what the program asks. Some people can't, or won't, do that.

[Warren DeMontague]

113. I agree with you if you are talking about some system that claims, for instance

That an alcoholic is somehow going to be able to magically transform into a moderate drinker. Barring some massive scientifc breakthrough on the physiology of the process, once someone has gone down the pathway to physiological addiction to alcohol, or if they have what I believe is the genetic predisposition to the point where they were drinking like that from the get-go- the ONLY option is total abstinence. Absolutely. And letting go of that hope or delusion of one day "being able to" drink... That is a rubicon which must be crossed for the recovery process, to be sure.

Trimpey, of RR, promotes the idea of reconfiguring the brain and attitudes to "be done with it"- however RR absolutely says total abstinence is the requirement and the goal. I find trimpey a bit too dogmatic in the opposite direction from AA. i dont think there is any one size fits all solution. But I also do not believe that ALL alcoholics require lifelong attendance at X number of meetings a week to remain sober. Some do, some don't.

As for the last point, what difference does it make? Take the hypothetical case of the Atheist who simply cannot contort the word "God" into something palatable, who can't stand the meetings, whose maximum time without a drink in a 12 step program is 2 weeks, and who gets and remains sober via other secular fellowship groups and/or means like SMART, and remains "happy, joyous and free" staying well and far away from 12 step programs?

Under what sort of yardstick would it have been "better" for that person to have forced themselves to "work" a program that wasnt doing it for them?

[U4ikLefty]

116. The physical addiction is cured by detox.

As far as AA being able to work "if they had done what the program asks" I don't think it's that simple. You are good to defend AA's approach, but it simply isn't for everyone. I was one of those people & I was in the rooms of AA for years.

SMART gave me what AA didn't...tools to help ME overcome my destructive behavior. I thank God I found SMART...they gave me the hope, strength, and TOOLS to achieve & maintain sobriety.

If AA works, then "work it"...hell yeah!!! But if AA's approach isn't what people are seeking, then they should seek out alternatives & decide for themselves. In the end it's our life and we have to live it the best way we CHOOSE.

Whatever they decide, it's important that they participate in their own recovery & don't give up.

[fujiyama]

67. I went to a meeting once...

It wasn't for me. I think it does good for some who are interested in a spiritual based recovery or just need a support group and people to confide in without being outwardly judged. In that way it's effective. A lot of people in our increasingly disconnected and lonely society could use a support group - especially if the people in our lives are judgmental, dismissive, or are otherwise enablers. AA is a safe and comforting environment for many. For that it deserves credit.

I personally just could not stand the pseudo-religious "higher power" stuff. I think it's unfortunate that many don't realize there are alternatives out there or other means to quit drinking.

I also think for many like myself that have alcoholic tendencies, AA does nothing to address other underlying mental health issues like anxiety and depression. Anxiety and depression, combined with alcohol can cause a nasty feedback loop where alcohol is simply nothing more than self medication. It's best to address that with professional mental health care.

[pipoman]

72. Hmmm

worst in all of medicine

AA isn't medicine, it is therapy. Psychology isn't medicine either. Psychiatry is medicine. Were the researchers medicine or not? If so, sounds like big pharma trying to defame a non medicine alternative. .

oh, and whether Dr.Dodes likes it or not, AA is credited by more people on this planet for their sobriety than any other organized treatment bar none. .

[littlewolf]

73. when I was in the navy it was recommended by my

division officer that I go to AA I declined. I decided to try something myself.
I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. so today I was not
going to drink just for today, tomorrow I may have a drink, maybe but for today I was not
going to drink. that was over 25 years ago ... I do not even remember the date.
it wasn't important.
I have seen AA work for a lot of my friends. and for a few folks it didn't work
I think some of it depends on the individual and their commitment to quit.

[The Second Stone]

75. AA is without cost, which is what poor people can afford

This doctor's book costs money, and his therapy sessions even more. Does he guarantee results or your money back?

[Blue_In_AK]

78. I could never get past that admitting you were helpless thing.

It's like accepting permanent victimhood, which I think is psychologically very damaging.

I was never an alcoholic, but I was married to one for 17 years, and (court-ordered) AA never helped him at all. While he was attending AA, I went to Alanon, and all it did was make me vaguely angry. We split up in 2002, and as far as I know, he never stopped drinking completely, but at least he manages to stay out of jail these days. Whatever success he has had in staying sober, or at least managing his "issue," has been through his own efforts. I'm just grateful it's no longer anything I have to deal with.

[SheilaT]

80. With all due respect to those for whom AA has been helpful,

I have always been very bothered by the underlying Christianity and religiosity of it.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy into the whole Higher Power thing, just as I don't buy into the whole Invisible Friend in the Sky thing.

I am sincerely glad that AA works for some. But I've known for decades that they do not keep records, they are at best vague about their success rate, and that they honestly can't tell you how successful they are.

For those of us who don't buy into the religious aspect, we really do need some other method of achieving not drinking.

[Warren DeMontague]

85. The history is certainly interesting, like the ties to "Moral Re-Armament"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Group

Apparently also known as "MRA" ... who knew?

[blueamy66]

86. I went with a friend to an AA meeting last night.

I am trying to figure out how listening to alcoholics tell their stories of DUIs, bar fights, blackouts and hangovers helps one to quit drinking.

It seems, to me, that everyone just wants to talk about themselves and "one up" each other on their drunken escapades.

How does that help one stop drinking? Or keep sober? Half way through the meeting, I wanted a beer.

Just don't get it.

I guess it's better than saying the same stuff in a bar, shitfaced drunk. And I guess if it works for some....

[steve2470]

89. in a well run group, "war stories" are discouraged, hard to do of course

It sounds like you heard way too many war stories.

[blueamy66]

90. Yes, that's exactly what I heard - war stories

I've been to other meetings and the same stuff seems to go on.

I would think small group therapy and one-on-one therapy would work better.

But, like I said, if it works for some.....

[Warren DeMontague]

99. The term I've heard used is "drunkalogues"

There is a time and a place for everything, of course.

[steve2470]

100. yes I've heard that too nt

[closeupready]

102. That's always been my experience at those meetings, too.

Just a waste of time, IMO. But as you say, if it helps some...

[madokie]

87. I drank for years

and when I decided I no longer wanted to be drunk I quit. Pretty fucking simple if you want to quit is to just quit. Sure I had a few days where I wanted to go to the liquor store but that didn't last but a few days. If I'd had to go to AA to quit I'd never have even tried. Last think I want to do is go listen to a bunch of old drunks lament about their desire to drink. I like my sobriety and wouldn't go back to drinking on a bet

[blueamy66]

157. One of my loved ones just needed to hear cirrhosis and you have 2 years to live, at best....

He quit. Medical detox. He's been sober for over a year. He hates AA and will never go. He doesn't like the religious aspect of it.

He is doing well. Liver is functioning again.

I don't know his future holds, but for now, he's good.

[ismnotwasm]

91. Alcoholics Anonymous can't be studied that way

When these studies pop up I just shake my head. What most people don't understand is AA is much like an Anarchy-- no leaders, no rules, anybody can start a meeting. They are not all registered nor are required to be. The percentage of people involved "Service work" is estimated to be about 10 percent of total membership. Every five years or so AA will send out an informal survey about membership. It's impossible to follow, so I fail to see how the author managed to estimate success given the information he's working with.

Treatment centers use Prochaska's model of change, and given many people are sent to treatment before AA in general, people are made aware of alternative methods of addiction recovery.

The thing about AA, is that it's cheap.

There are everything from atheist meetings to nudists meetings to on-line meeting, to various meetings in many places around the world, including countries like India and Cuba. I doubt the author took this into consideration.

As far as "The Program" it works for some, it's never, as noted in the article from the beginning worked for everyone. Some would say the reason is those persons didn't work "The Program" and in some cases that's probably very true. In others, AA simply for whatever reasons, is not a good fit.


I am a transplant nurse, specifically livers, kidneys and pancreas, although I do other things as well. I've seen candidates not be able to make the 6 months sobriety it takes to be listed-- and it wasn't because they were going to AA. Addiction is insidious, and the ultimate outcome is at best a dysfunctional family with very poor coping skills in at least one or more members all the way to individual death.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

93. Atheist meetings.

I drop into a particular atheist/agnostic meeting now and then to remind myself you can get sober and stay sober in/through AA without believing in God. Good post.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

92. 100% success rate here.

The hardest part of stopping drinking in AA was/is learning to be around other people sober. But I'm grateful I couldn't stop by myself (tried for ten years) because needing other people (who I consider to be doing the work of this Higher Power dealie) to help me made me learn how to be a part of the human race. Which is to me the highest spiritual calling.

[ismnotwasm]

96. +1

[steve2470]

95. for the curious about DSM-5 and alcoholism

http://www.psychiatry.org/File%20Library/Practice/DSM/DSM-5/DSM-5-Substance-Use-Disorder.pdf

new category, Alcohol Use Disorder

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-use-disorders

Substance-Related Disorders

Alcohol-Related Disorders

Alcohol Use Disorders
Specify current severity:
305.00 Mild
303.90 Moderate
303.90 Severe
303.00 Alcohol Intoxication

With use disorder, mild
With use disorder, moderate or severe
Without use disorder

291.81 Alcohol Withdrawal
Without perceptual disturbances
With perceptual disturbances

291.81 Other Alcohol-Induced Disorders

291.9 Unspecified Alcohol-Related Disorder

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM-5_codes#Substance-Related_and_Addictive_Disorders

[99Forever]

97. My brother celebrated 20 years of sobriety, last Sunday.

He achieved it with the help of AA.

Works for some, not for others, kind of like a lot of other things in life. I know one thing for sure...

"Statistics" are usually manipulated to fit someone's agenda, and this is likely no exception.

[steve2470]

98. Not everyone who attends an AA/Rational Recovery/etc meeting IS truly an alcoholic....

I think that's an important point to be made. Some are "abusive drinkers", but not truly addicted. Huge difference between an "abusive drinker" and a bona-fide alcoholic. Abusive drinker = not physically addicted but drinks too much at times, can still walk away from alcohol pretty easily. The physically addicted are the real deal, the real hard core alcoholics who will have a ghastly withdrawal and who will probably need hospitalization.

[undeterred]

101. Not everyone really follows the 12 steps.

[Warren DeMontague]

103. For those interested in scientific understanding of the physiological underpinnings of alcoholism

As opposed to probably fruitless endless debates as to whether or not it is a "soul malady" which "requires spiritual help"- there is a much larger amount of scientific information available than there used to be, on the precise neurochemical processes involved in alcohol addiction and withdrawl. Fascinating stuff.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16952998

[steve2470]

104. thanks for that, Warren

Facts are always good.

[Warren DeMontague]

105. Totally.

The fact is that real alcohol withdrawls, the DTs, etc. can absolutely be deadly... There is now a fairly good understanding of what the process is and why it takes place. I think a few decades ago it was still sort of a mystery.

[steve2470]

106. another germane point

Many times there is co-existing/co-morbid psychiatric stuff going on, like an anxiety disorder and/or depression. It's important to look for that also and treat it when it's possible.

[Warren DeMontague]

107. I think with many people, that is true as well.

I also am of the opinion that the same genes which predispose some people to alcoholism seem to carry or travel with other traits, some of them potentially beneficial under some circumstances.

[whistler162]

128. "As opposed to probably fruitless endless debates" .......

you do realize that this is DU the home of fruitless endless debates.

[Warren DeMontague]

131. aint that the truth.

[steve2470]

135. amen nt

[nomorenomore08]

168. +3

[Sarah Ibarruri]

108. I think all addiction sufferers probably have a terrible success rate at beating their addictions nt

[etherealtruth]

118. So true! n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

123. This is, sadly, true.

[Turbineguy]

115. You also need your family and friends to help.

When one of my friends quit drinking all of us made sure he stayed off the sauce. He told me about how people would quit and then their friends would sneak alcohol into their drinks.

[Warren DeMontague]

122. Some friends.

As someone who has seen what the DTs can do to people, that's fucking unconscionable.

But a lot of people don't "get it" when it comes to alcoholism. They can drink without a problem, so why can't everyone?

[Sivafae]

152. I read somewhere that addiction is when someone is "hijacked" by the substance.

I can't remember where, but they did use the word "hijack." Frankly that is my experience.

That is the part people who "can drink without a problem" don't understand. There is some personal responsibility because of the choice of whether to imbibe or not. However I do believe it would be better for everyone if we just accepted it as a "hijacking." I think people would be much more inclined to identify what is happening and seek solutions. I don't think people set out to be raging violent drunks.

[Warren DeMontague]

153. That's a good way to put it.

I mean i have way more than enough accumulated anecdotal evidence to know for myself that it is a stone-cold FACT there is a physiological, genetic thing going on with the way some people process alcohol.

It's not even in question, it's patently obvious.

[Mariana]

158. It is very difficult to understand.

I had to give up drinking altogether a couple of years ago because I developed an allergy and started breaking out in hives from even a little sip. I wasn't happy about it, but in the end it wasn't a big deal because drinking just wasn't important to me.

On the other hand, an alcoholic friend of mine (who'd been sober for a few years at that time) didn't understand that it wasn't a hardship for me to stop drinking. For him, giving up drinking was a huge deal. He had such a hard time putting it down that he just couldn't conceive of how little it bothered me to have to do it.

I can imagine how it would sneak up on a person over a period of months or years. There isn't any clear line between an ordinary drinker and an alcoholic, is there? No one can point to a date on the calendar and say "That's when I became an alcoholic."

[liberal_at_heart]

127. Curbing any addiction usually takes several attempts.

[jwirr]

130. I have contended that part of the problem is that judges sentence people to attend the meeting and

they go but not for the reasons the judge wants. I wrote our country judge years ago telling him what I heard several young men talking about. One of them was telling the other that he was going to the AA meeting that night. The other asked him what time it would be over. They then agreed to meet at a local bar later to have some fun.

The point I am making is that it is very hard to help someone who does not want to be helped. The percentage you quote does not surprise me. And yes, the steps are very outdated.

[Warren DeMontague]

132. A lot of 12 steppers don't appreciate the court-mandated people being there, either, AFAIUI.

Because as you say, it's a different story when someone is ordered to do it by a judge.

[jwirr]

136. I was aware of that also. Consider that you are setting in this meeting and are expected to bare you

soul in front of the other members and here they are planning their next binge. And since misery loves company they are trying to take as many of you with them as they can get. Not a good way to help anyone. I personally think that those who are sentenced to meetings should have a special group until they have proven themselves. That at least would give the others a fighting chance.

[hollysmom]

139. I read the articles and here is why they are wrong

There is no real trace on AA because - get this - It is anonymous!!! They aren't going to talk to you. Of they are going by court ordered people, guess what!!!! they are not going of their free will.

I have been involved in that organization, I have seen people slip and recover - being an alcoholic is a life long thing, and a slip does not mean it is a failure. I have seen it work with an atheist - the god part is not a big deal, it can be defined as being inside you, your strength. Picking on little things is stupid. Now - does every group have the same success rate NO - every group is made up on individual. I have been in one group that did not work and that was pushing religion - here is the short answer - move on and find another group. I was in a group where it was the neighborhood joes and janes and super stars because it was just outside NYC. and everyone was just a people. And the success rate in that group was amazing except for the court ordered people who really did not want to be there and wanted to just gossip about others. Can I swear everyone is still off the sauce x many years later? no because I an divorced from the Alcoholic, so I don't go to AA anymore. I don't go to Al Anon either,I had a bit more trouble with religion in that group and a lot of people who attended there were more like attention whores in that they dissociated with their alcoholics decades before and attended and tride to run the group like their own social group. I don't think that is typical but I lived in a very religious neighborhood, so needed to get out of town. Seems like all the atheists attended AA.

Look the people writing this book have an agenda and a lot of AA and NA is less successful now because a lot of people in there don't want to be in there but the courts that do not support AA and NA send people to them all the time, flooding them with don't wanna bes. I have been to therapy, and found that therapists love what ever they specialized in, they are people too and tend to define your illness in terms they best understand, mine was living with an alcoholic and having every one (family/ friends/strangers/his employers) be mad at me when I tried to put some order in my life, but eliminating him or by limiting his damage. The only people who understood were the Al Anon and AA people, gave me the strength to move on which helped him to have the strength to get sober.


I also resented the part of the book that claimed people Proselytized - no they recommended something that worked for them, I never heard anyone say it was the only way for anyone, but the only way for them. What ever. I found the excerpts fromthe book to be selling their brand of snake oil.

AA is not the only way, but it is the way that worked for my ex, but failed my brother - yet my brother is stuck in his childhood blaming everyone else for his problem, been to rehab, been to a therapist who he said sided with his wife all the time. Had my brother had some support, AA would have been great for him to lean how to accept his own responsibility, no other way has reached him and he is in his 50's disabled with a wasted bitter life. At some time I expect him to move in here with me (really really don't want that - really!!!!) the constant bitterness over things he did to himself will kill me. I can only take it so long before I have to leave him where ever he is and go for a walk to clear my head.

Why can't this book sell it's own snake oil without discounting other people's help? There always needs to be more than on way,

[Orrex]

154. In that case, AA can't claim any sort of success rate, either

If participation is anonymous and there's no independent, impartial review of the program's success rate, then AA has no more authority to declare itself successful than any other entity has authority to claim that AA doesn't work.

[hollysmom]

171. exactly, we can only know about the group we are in, our group was very successful.

But what is success - you can fall back any time. some of the best had slips after 5 years. The most rewarding thing was seeing people get back on the wagon. On the other hand, the guy I met in AlAnon who told me he was praying his wife sober and trying to keep her pregnant so she would not drink so much didn't seem to have any success at all, even though he dragged her to meetings.

Here is the thing, AA is not claiming a success rate, others are claiming failure. The idea is if it works for you good, if it doesn't find something else.

[Kurska]

150. As to be expected

Alcoholics anonymous isn't evidence based medicine, it is religion masquerading as a cure.

Essentially it is just woo.

[riderinthestorm]

156. Uh oh. You brought up the woo label. Now this thread will really explode

[Kurska]

172. Couldn't resist

[riderinthestorm]

174. Yes well, this type of "woo" is inconvenient to the naysayers

5% helped? Insufficient!!111111!!!

Da dum dahhhhhhh (insert gloomy, dismissive music here). Its not scientific. Its "woo". There's not enough helped ( ) to make it worth considering....

I've never bought into those who slam "woo".

I don't understand it. I don't claim to judge.

I simply know from personal experience that some shit that shouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of working because its "woo", works.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

162. If AA reached only One Person, I would have to consider it a success.

[Mariana]

164. There are so many alcoholics and/or problem drinkers.

There are millions and millions of them in the US alone. Even if it is true that AA helps only a small percentage of them, that still adds up to a hell of a lot of success stories.

[William Seger]

173. This debate reminds me a lot of debating homeopathy

Should we take the numerous anecdotes of people being helped by homeopathy as proof of efficacy and accept it as legitimate "alternative medicine," even though we know it's just distilled water and that the theory behind it is utter nonsense?

I don't know about "higher powers" but I do believe that science is our best hope for dealing with the real world. To me, the problem with, not just AA, but psychiatry and psychiatric therapy in general is a lack of scientific rigor. My response to what you're saying, respectfully, is that I believe that more people would get more help if we knew more about what we're doing, and the best way to do that is to approach it more scientifically than we have.

There was a time when some believed that attaching leaches to sick people to suck out the "bad blood" would cure some diseases, and sometimes it "worked." But even though it didn't have a very impressive cure rate, I believe leaching became popular just because it seemed to be better than doing nothing. Fortunately, better alternatives were found through scientific research.

[riderinthestorm]

206. So everyone on this thread whose been helped by AA is "utter nonsense"?

Because that's what you appear to be saying. Every one of these DUers experience with staying sober with AA is "nonsense"?

[William Seger]

210. If that's what I wanted to say, I would have said that (n/t)

[riderinthestorm]

211. So why the comparison? "that the theory behind <it> is utter nonsense?"

You have real time, real life examples of good DUers that this "woo", akin to homeopathy, has helped.

Yet you want to compare it to "utter nonsense". Its either helped them. Or not. They've either gotten relief, measurable relief, or not.

You made the statement and then put out an implied slam against DUers who've gotten relief as "utter nonsense".

Back it up or retract imo.

Count me in as a skeptic who will try ANYTHING that might work to relieve pain and suffering. And if it proves itself to work, I take it as faith that "peer reviewed science" hasn't yet caught up with WHY it works.

I deal with high performance horses as a career. They can't fake a placebo, anymore than an addict can "fake" relief. It either works or it doesn't. Addicts don't have the luxury of "faking" relief. The treatment either works or it doesn't.

You now have a hundred plus examples of good DUer's telling you this treatment is working. Are they lying? Do you disbelieve them? Your problem squaring their "anecdotes" against 'science" isn't the answer imho.

What needs to happen is for science to examine WHY some of this "woo" works. Because make no mistake, some "woo" works. Just like willow bark (an old wives tale) was refined into aspirin, and snake venom as a paralyzer on damaged horse tendons to relieve pain was refined into botox, its actually MORE scientific to keep an open mind about these things imho than to categorically lump them as "utter nonsense".

YMMV.

[William Seger]

213. "Back it up or retract," huh?

Your lack of concern for the far greater number of people who are not helped by AA is touching, but my point was that the reason we don't know what to do to help them is the total lack of scientific rigor in field. So, rather than explain again why I said "this debate reminds me a lot of debating homeopathy" (which you have so ironically demonstrated rather than refuted), I think I should demand that you back up or retract your implicit defense of the status quo -- this being a progressive board and all.

[nomorenomore08]

169. People should do whatever works for them. That's all I can say as someone who has dealt

with addiction issues himself, primarily through medication - I've never been to a 12 Step meeting and likely never will, but I'm clean of all "hard drugs" and don't drink much nowadays either, though alcohol was never really my "problem" to begin with.

[davidpdx]

179. I don't really have an opinion on AA

Alcoholism does run strong in my family though. For that reason I try to stay away from it. That is the best advice I can give to someone who has family members that have a problem with alcohol.

Thankfully I live in a place where the alcohol is shit and I only drink on rare occasions (and even then it is a type of wine). The beer in Korea is pisswater.

[Laelth]

188. k&r for the truth. n/t

-Laelth

[cordelia]

194. Interesting thread - I've enjoyed it very much.

I may even be able to pull a topic out of it to use as discussion leader at my home group meeting tonight.

For those of you who think AA is nothing but a bunch of old drunks trading "war stories" or "drunkalogues", that may be true in certain groups. It is certainly not the case in mine; "drunkalogues" are discouraged. I wouldn't attend those meetings either. I try and attend various meetings, and when I find one like that, I write it off; it won't work for this alcoholic.

Does AA work for everyone? No. It has for me. So far. Addiction is an insidious disease and I can never be cured. To me, it is a fatal disease that I can keep in remission until - if I am diligent. I'm lucky in that respect.

Contempt prior to investigation, as mentioned upthread, almost cost me my life. Twice (relapse is an ugly, ugly thing). So, if you think you have a problem, please speak to someone in the medical profession to discuss solutions.

[NCTraveler]

198. It works for countless people every day.

People who have become powerless over their addiction. Fuck the for profiteers who have just as poor of a success rate when dealing with addictions. They can't stand that a bunch of people can have the same level of success without master degrees in one of the social sciences and without charging over $100/hr.

__________ program has a terrible success rate, addiction expert finds. Place any program in the blank and it will work. Addiction is a bitch.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

200. I'll give AA props for a few things

AA doesn't have psychiatrists performing psych evals and prescribing meds. Today, tens of thousands of AAers are on psych meds. If a friend of a friend's cousin told you that she was at an AA meeting and someone said poo about medication, she can simply go to another meeting.

I'll give AA props for the following:

1. AA accepts everyone from all SES, don't need insurance or a significant bank - good luck getting help if you're poor and uninsured!

2. support group - for many, it's the first time they get to meet and talk to others with same (psych) issues; people discover they are not alone

3. program of action - people who don't take action won't fare well; most people don't want to make changes, so most people don't fare well

4. role models - people with long-time sobriety are role models for newcomers

5. you can find a meeting at all times worldwide when you need support - good luck replicating this with your treatment center...

get ready for the punchline:


YOUR TREATMENT CENTER WILL RECOMMEND AA

Maybe many of you don't travel for work or travel alone, much. It's somewhere to go when you're feeling vulnerable, either because you're lonely or your coworkers are at a bar getting hammered.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

201. That's pretty sad.

5 to 10% is not a 'success rate', it's essentially statistical noise...

[riderinthestorm]

207. So none of the DUers on this thread have really experienced "success" with AA?

They're real experiences are just "statistical noise"?

Are you really comfortable slamming this many good DUers this way?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

208. Not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying many of those people likely could have been equally successful with any other random program to help them remain sober.

That the power to stop and stay sober lay IN THEM, not in the program. So I'm actually calling them stronger, not 'slamming' them.

[riderinthestorm]

209. Okay, that's cool. I happen to know the programs are successful

And I'm not being specific to AA, I meant any "program" like AA (and AA) as well.

My dad was a raging alcoholic for 40+ years. AA saved his life so I get a little defensive when someone appears to be saying these programs are "woo" or unsuccessful. As I and many others are saying on this thread, it WAS the programs that worked - as much as that appears unscientific. His power to stay sober didn't reside in himself at all - he needed that group and sponsor which he clung to in sheer desperation.

Nothing else worked - two stints in rehab, even Antabuse which he tried for about 3 weeks once before pitching. He had a heart attack at age 75 and during the time he was recuperating there he went through withdrawal. I drove him every day for the first 2 weeks to every AA meeting in the area til he found his "match".

He's been sober now for 7 years. Its a fucking miracle.

[KinMd]

212. Im a DU'er AND member of AA

I don't speak for AA, but it's helped me to be sober for almost 30 years. If other methods work for people that's good. No one ever told me I HAD to believe in God, and the reading of a prayer..any prayer from any religion doesn't really bother me.
Simply they're men and women who know how I felt when I was drunk, and how to live sober. I could call them before picking up a drink. I'm a drunk and it's helped me to stay sober one day at a time...I'm only speaking for myself

[Dorian Gray]

203. How does

one scientifically measure the success rate of an anonymous support group that doesn't promote scientific measures for treatment?

[TlalocW]

204. I've heard a lot about the success rate on AA being bad

I've had alcohol once in my life - when I was 3 and wanted a sip of my dad's pop (Pepsi and Old Milwaukee had the same color scheme). I'm 42 now. I don't even like to eat food that has been prepared in alcohol. I won't bore you with the reasons, and I'm fine with whatever a person wants to put into his or her own body. If you don't have control of that, I don't see how you can call yourself free.

But the things that always bothered me about AA is that they claim alcoholism is a disease - which we can argue both ways for - yet they eschew any modern methods of dealing with disease, including medication, of which there are some meds that can help you with the addiction, and the "methods" in the "Big Book" have not changed since it was first published. That's not how medicine - or anything scientific - works.

The whole admitting you're helpless. Bullshit. I'm Tlaloc Goddamn W, and I'm not helpless. Sure, there are times I need support from others, and I give support to others when they need it, but I'm never helpless. That's just a method of getting people to become more receptive to the religious message that was part of AA when it first started and is still prevalent in it today - and I'm not saying that's good or bad either way. I'm just saying it was there and still is.

TlalocW

[steve2470]

205. off-topic anecdote about AA

In about 1984, when I was young and naive and in grad school, I called up the local AA support line to find a meeting I could go to for my research requirement for a class. The guy on the phone told me, go to location X. Ok, I thanked him and went to location X at the prescribed time.

I went into the meeting room and it was filled with all men. Coffee pot, steel folding chairs, filled to capacity pretty much. Location X is in a semi-tony suburb of my birth town, so there was every stratum of humanity there. I don't remember seeing a single woman there.

The meeting got under way and the men began to say the archetypal "Hi, I'm Joe and I'm an alcoholic" type of introduction, and then tell their story. This went on for about 30 minutes or so, so I heard several stories. Of course, I could not tell you today who they were even if they shook my hand.

The leader of the meeting looked around and spied me in the back. I was obviously a newcomer. He called on me and asked me if I wished to speak. I said " Hi, I'm Steve and I'm not an alcoholic but I'm here to do a bit of research. I'd like to talk to some of you." Words to that effect.

A hush fell over the room. I was hustled out of there faster than you can say HUZZAH. It was a polite hustling, though. A couple of men said, um, you were given a CLOSED meeting, and not an open meeting where everyone can come and ask questions. I was very embarrassed, apologized profusely and promised gravely not to compromise anyone's confidentiality. Satisfied with that reassurance, they bid me good luck and went back into the meeting.

MORAL OF THE STORY: All AA meetings are NOT alike. MOST of them are closed to alcoholics or people who may think they are alcoholics. If you simply want information, go to an OPEN meeting. Make sure you make that 10000% obvious to the person on the phone if you call them. It's obvious the guy on the phone did not understand what I wanted, or it's also possible I was not clear enough.

Steve