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xchrom

(108,903 posts)
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 07:31 AM Apr 2014

Rock Star Blames Unions for Music's Downfall, But Venue Workers Aren't the Problem

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/rock-star-blames-unions-downfall-music-workers-arent-problem


Machine Head's Robb Flyn says paying venue workers overtime is making is tough for bands to give the fans what they want.

***SNIP

While he is right about major venues, I know a lot of little bars in Wisconsin that bring in a band and they will play through to bar time. But we are not talking about the Harmony or the High Noon Saloon. We are talking big venues.
Venues these days are mostly run with Union workers. In most major cities, you have to take breaks during the day, where a band can't even sound check for an hour because the union workers need a "break." Nowadays if you play 1 minute past 11PM at any of the large Union venues, it costs the band $1,000 dollars a minute. When we were out with Metallica playing arenas they regularly play 20 minutes past 11:00PM, and they regularly paid $20,000 to do so.
Only the Metallica's and Pearl Jam's can pull things like this. Bands that have sold millions of records, and they can afford it.

Now this is where he lost me. The reason those unions are in place is not to screw the bands, but to protect the worker. If I work at a concert venue and the show runs 20 minutes over who is going to pay me overtime? The venue has contracted for a certain amount of time, in that time is labor costs. If you go over that time the labor has to stay there, and someone has to pay for that labor. I would also like to point out that these union workers at these venues also have homes and families. I assume that they would like to be able to go home and spend time with them.

Let’s go back to the Journey/Montrose show that Mr. Flynn was discussing in the first part of his blog post. The one where there were so many encores that the show went on until 2:30 AM. Did he ever think that the reason the unions came in and negotiated breaks and end times was because of shows that went on to the wee morning hours? These union workers do not work for free. I would not expect Machine Head to sign a contract to play for two hours and I come in and demand that they play for four hours while only receiving two hours worth of pay, and Mr. Flynn should not expect the union workers at the venues he plays at to work 12 hours for eight hours pay.
44 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Rock Star Blames Unions for Music's Downfall, But Venue Workers Aren't the Problem (Original Post) xchrom Apr 2014 OP
It has always been this way. I remember back 30 years ago CBGLuthier Apr 2014 #1
Well said! LuvNewcastle Apr 2014 #4
+1 sakabatou Apr 2014 #34
How soon they forget where they came from, eh? n/t 99Forever Apr 2014 #2
Fuck him and the horse he rode in on. hobbit709 Apr 2014 #3
+1 DinahMoeHum Apr 2014 #12
+2 Octafish Apr 2014 #16
+3 Enthusiast Apr 2014 #41
Looking forward to Mr. Flynn blaming the venues as well. Brickbat Apr 2014 #5
Ain't nothin' but another rich Republican. WinkyDink Apr 2014 #6
"star" is used rather loosely here Capt. Obvious Apr 2014 #7
My thoughts, exactly. Fawke Em Apr 2014 #27
If Peter Criss were to speak up on the issue Capt. Obvious Apr 2014 #28
music's downfall? treestar Apr 2014 #8
This begs the question: Who on earth thinks Robb Flyn is a rock star? Scuba Apr 2014 #9
Well, his mom...probably. Lizzie Poppet Apr 2014 #15
Do Not Play Over Your Limit erpowers Apr 2014 #10
If they cannot standingtall Apr 2014 #11
There is an epic mistake in this article... SomethingFishy Apr 2014 #13
thanks for laying out some facts reddread Apr 2014 #22
I completely agree. LuvNewcastle Apr 2014 #44
Rock star? The Wizard Apr 2014 #14
I might even actually enjoy seeing a Liberace impersonator. LuvNewcastle Apr 2014 #43
apparently he thinks the venue onethatcares Apr 2014 #17
Machine Head? Dirty Socialist Apr 2014 #18
Star??? Tom Ripley Apr 2014 #19
What a great thread. pintobean Apr 2014 #20
99.99%+ of gigging musicians these days would kill to play big venues. Lizzie Poppet Apr 2014 #21
We need to seriously work on the definition of "Rock Star" krawhitham Apr 2014 #23
So get your ass on the stage and start the show on time, "rock star" ! Gidney N Cloyd Apr 2014 #24
Precisely! KansDem Apr 2014 #30
thank you! frylock Apr 2014 #37
I have a real problem with what you posted... joeybee12 Apr 2014 #25
I've never heard of 'Machine Head'. House of Roberts Apr 2014 #29
Neither have i... joeybee12 Apr 2014 #31
Because low wage workers will be able to afford 100$ + tickets to big venue shows Johonny Apr 2014 #26
A$$hole. riqster Apr 2014 #32
If I was a petty and passive-aggressive person SwankyXomb Apr 2014 #33
Machine Head? Never heard of them Spirochete Apr 2014 #35
The only Machine Head I've ever known... Drunken Irishman Apr 2014 #36
listen dumbshit, the "fans" don't "want" to be out past 12P on a school night.. frylock Apr 2014 #38
RIAA's pitiful royalties have nothing to do with unions. Orsino Apr 2014 #39
The horrors of workers expecting breaks and payment fishwax Apr 2014 #40
I just retired from the industry after 17 years because it's become so fucked. Buddyblazon Apr 2014 #42

CBGLuthier

(12,723 posts)
1. It has always been this way. I remember back 30 years ago
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 07:55 AM
Apr 2014

shows had to end on time or there was a penalty. As there should be. I hate fucking rock stars with their attitudes that they offer something so special and pure that people should volunteer to deliver it for free. Pay for it asshole or get the fuck off the stage.

hobbit709

(41,694 posts)
3. Fuck him and the horse he rode in on.
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 08:09 AM
Apr 2014

Maybe he should work with a tip jar in front of the stage and see how far he gets.

Brickbat

(19,339 posts)
5. Looking forward to Mr. Flynn blaming the venues as well.
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 08:22 AM
Apr 2014

Seeing as the venues are part of the whole collective bargaining thing.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
8. music's downfall?
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 08:51 AM
Apr 2014

lol. And there isn't enough money overflowing those events to pay a little overtime to people not exactly making a huge hourly wage?

erpowers

(9,350 posts)
10. Do Not Play Over Your Limit
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 09:04 AM
Apr 2014

I think the author of the article makes a good point.

"I would not expect Machine Head to sign a contract to play for two hours and I come in and demand that they play for four hours while only receiving two hours of pay, and Mr. Flynn should not expect the union workers at the venues he plays at to work 12 hours for eight hours play."

If Mr. Flynn does not want to have to pay union workers extra he should not allow his shows to go long. If he chooses to let his shows go long he should not blame union workers because he has to pay them extra. He is making those workers stay on the job longer than they planned. Most of those workers have families and would probably like to be home with their families instead of being at a concert until 2:30 in the morning.

standingtall

(2,785 posts)
11. If they cannot
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 09:09 AM
Apr 2014

Afford the business expenses of going over their scheduled time at large venues. Well than they shouldn't go over their scheduled time or shouldn't play at large venues.

SomethingFishy

(4,876 posts)
13. There is an epic mistake in this article...
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 10:07 AM
Apr 2014

I am a roadie so we are in my wheelhouse here...

When a band breaks the 11pm curfew the fines have absolutely nothing to do with the union. It's the venue that charges that money not the union and the union only sees extra money if they go over their 4 hour minimum. Usually on a union call for a concert there are two 4 hour calls, one for the load in and one for the load out. Then you have a handful of guys who get a show call, spot ops, stage hands, an electrician and a rigger. If either 4 hour call is breached then the union goes into overtime.

Most places that have a strict, finable, 11pm curfew are amphitheaters that have local noise ordnances to follow. There are curfews in arenas but most allow a few extra minutes without getting all bent out of shape.

That said, it is true that the labor bill is usually way higher (30-50%) in a union hall. However in most instances you get a much better quality of worker so the job goes faster.

Oh and just FYI if a band goes over the band does not pay the promoter does. Metallica and Pearl Jam aren't paying those fines out of pocket.



 

reddread

(6,896 posts)
22. thanks for laying out some facts
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 10:50 AM
Apr 2014

the agenda of modern media in all its crippled forms, and the dissipation of journalistic ethics and quality control are not unrelated.
we are lost at sea in an ocean of noise.

onethatcares

(16,163 posts)
17. apparently he thinks the venue
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 10:36 AM
Apr 2014

should allow him to have more time without paying for it also.

he's a turd.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
21. 99.99%+ of gigging musicians these days would kill to play big venues.
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 10:46 AM
Apr 2014

As Flyn correctly states, this is a "big venue" matter. At the small venues the vast majority of bands play at, there's very little money floating around for anyone involved, be they band, band crew (if any), promoter, venue staff, and even the club owner. It's just another "working stiff" part of the economy that's gotten screwed over for the last 30 years. A band is lucky to take home fifty bucks from a gig (yes, band...not each member thereof).

Playing at a big venue usually means a substantial door (either ticket sales or a good-sized cover charge). Unless you're a big, major-label draw, that still doesn't mean a ton of money floating around, so in places where event staff is unionized (and even if they're not, depending on the contract terms for the gig), bands and promoters have to be careful about playing over the set time. Paying overtime is expensive, obviously, and while I don't for one second buy that "$1000/minute" bullshit, that means stopping on time, even if you've really got it going and the crowd's into it.

KansDem

(28,498 posts)
30. Precisely!
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 11:19 AM
Apr 2014

How often have we heard or read about rock concerts starting late?

Suppose you'd decided to see a film or a play or some sports event tonight, and it didn't start till 10pm. If you finished work at 6pm, that would give you four hours to kill, which is a big chunk of time even if you did get some food first and then spent the remaining couple of hours in the pub. Or, if you were in London over October, you might have filled the hours by visiting one of the galleries that stayed open late as part of a programme called Lates. But most people don't want to have to hang around killing time, which is why films, plays and matches start at 7pm or 8pm.

Gigs, though, are a whole other thing; it has become accepted that they begin late. And "late" has been getting ever later in the last couple of years. The support act might wander onstage at 8.30pm - 9pm is more common - and if the main band show their faces by 9.30pm, you're lucky. Chances are, though, it won't be 9.30pm; it'll be 10pm or later. At a show by American singer Jeffrey Lewis in Leeds last month, he was still soundchecking at 11pm, and when Guns N' Roses made a comeback of sorts in 2006, their Hammersmith Apollo gig began at 11pm, and ended two hours later, well after the last tube, leaving their immensely long-suffering fans with a choice of the night bus or an expensive taxi ride. And I don't even need to mention (but will anyway) the tardiness of rappers, which results in performances that don't kick off till the milkman has started his round.


http://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2007/nov/02/whydogigsstartsolate

Aren't rock stars' cavalier attitudes about starting on time their way of striking back at The Establishment?
 

joeybee12

(56,177 posts)
25. I have a real problem with what you posted...
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 11:01 AM
Apr 2014

In no way shape or form can Mr. Flynn be considered a "star"

Johonny

(20,819 posts)
26. Because low wage workers will be able to afford 100$ + tickets to big venue shows
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 11:04 AM
Apr 2014

Do you think the popularity of the band is waning?

No, I just think it is becoming more selective.

SwankyXomb

(2,030 posts)
33. If I was a petty and passive-aggressive person
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 11:47 AM
Apr 2014

I'd make sure that copies of his whining were sent to the unions at all his upcoming venues.

Spirochete

(5,264 posts)
35. Machine Head? Never heard of them
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 12:07 PM
Apr 2014

Sounds like a band that would never have to worry about playing overtime anyhow - because they'd have to clear out to make way for the headliners...


frylock

(34,825 posts)
38. listen dumbshit, the "fans" don't "want" to be out past 12P on a school night..
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 01:18 PM
Apr 2014

so get your ass out on the stage at 8P so the headliner can start playing by 9:30. this is why I rarely ever go to shows on a weekday.

Orsino

(37,428 posts)
39. RIAA's pitiful royalties have nothing to do with unions.
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 01:56 PM
Apr 2014

Flyn's income is more dependent on shows because of the RIAA. Picking on the near minimum-wagers working there is airheaded.

 

Buddyblazon

(3,014 posts)
42. I just retired from the industry after 17 years because it's become so fucked.
Wed Apr 2, 2014, 09:42 AM
Apr 2014

I was a Production Manager and Stage Manager for Live Nation.

What's wrong with the industry is the guarantee's being written into contracts. They'll promise an act $80k (every act gets them now) before a single ticket has sold. Half the time the shows don't sell well. So were do you suppose companies like Live Nation make up that money? On the little guys. The PM's...the stage hands...the stage manager. No pay has gone up in 15 years in that industry...right about the time the guarantee became regular hat.

I hear they replaced me with a kid out of college who is doing it for about half of what I was being paid....and I didn't make shit. One of my former employees called me yesterday to tell me how clueless the guy was and how productions have gone to shit because nobody is getting the information they need...because the kid just doesn't know. It's not like the old days where somebody was brought up and groomed. We were introduced to our contacts years ago and we were expected to develop relationships with them.

Not no more. This kid was dragged down from Detroit. No connects here. Doesn't know anybody. And doesn't know how to treat anybody.

Live music is dead. Long live live music.

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