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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsRock Star Blames Unions for Music's Downfall, But Venue Workers Aren't the Problem
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/rock-star-blames-unions-downfall-music-workers-arent-problemMachine Head's Robb Flyn says paying venue workers overtime is making is tough for bands to give the fans what they want.
***SNIP
While he is right about major venues, I know a lot of little bars in Wisconsin that bring in a band and they will play through to bar time. But we are not talking about the Harmony or the High Noon Saloon. We are talking big venues.
Venues these days are mostly run with Union workers. In most major cities, you have to take breaks during the day, where a band can't even sound check for an hour because the union workers need a "break." Nowadays if you play 1 minute past 11PM at any of the large Union venues, it costs the band $1,000 dollars a minute. When we were out with Metallica playing arenas they regularly play 20 minutes past 11:00PM, and they regularly paid $20,000 to do so.
Only the Metallica's and Pearl Jam's can pull things like this. Bands that have sold millions of records, and they can afford it.
Now this is where he lost me. The reason those unions are in place is not to screw the bands, but to protect the worker. If I work at a concert venue and the show runs 20 minutes over who is going to pay me overtime? The venue has contracted for a certain amount of time, in that time is labor costs. If you go over that time the labor has to stay there, and someone has to pay for that labor. I would also like to point out that these union workers at these venues also have homes and families. I assume that they would like to be able to go home and spend time with them.
Lets go back to the Journey/Montrose show that Mr. Flynn was discussing in the first part of his blog post. The one where there were so many encores that the show went on until 2:30 AM. Did he ever think that the reason the unions came in and negotiated breaks and end times was because of shows that went on to the wee morning hours? These union workers do not work for free. I would not expect Machine Head to sign a contract to play for two hours and I come in and demand that they play for four hours while only receiving two hours worth of pay, and Mr. Flynn should not expect the union workers at the venues he plays at to work 12 hours for eight hours pay.
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)shows had to end on time or there was a penalty. As there should be. I hate fucking rock stars with their attitudes that they offer something so special and pure that people should volunteer to deliver it for free. Pay for it asshole or get the fuck off the stage.
LuvNewcastle
(16,835 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)hobbit709
(41,694 posts)Maybe he should work with a tip jar in front of the stage and see how far he gets.
Greed Head.
Not a fan, but still.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)Seeing as the venues are part of the whole collective bargaining thing.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)- or the roadie wearing his makeup - then I'd listen.
treestar
(82,383 posts)lol. And there isn't enough money overflowing those events to pay a little overtime to people not exactly making a huge hourly wage?
Scuba
(53,475 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)At least to his face...
erpowers
(9,350 posts)I think the author of the article makes a good point.
"I would not expect Machine Head to sign a contract to play for two hours and I come in and demand that they play for four hours while only receiving two hours of pay, and Mr. Flynn should not expect the union workers at the venues he plays at to work 12 hours for eight hours play."
If Mr. Flynn does not want to have to pay union workers extra he should not allow his shows to go long. If he chooses to let his shows go long he should not blame union workers because he has to pay them extra. He is making those workers stay on the job longer than they planned. Most of those workers have families and would probably like to be home with their families instead of being at a concert until 2:30 in the morning.
standingtall
(2,785 posts)Afford the business expenses of going over their scheduled time at large venues. Well than they shouldn't go over their scheduled time or shouldn't play at large venues.
SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)I am a roadie so we are in my wheelhouse here...
When a band breaks the 11pm curfew the fines have absolutely nothing to do with the union. It's the venue that charges that money not the union and the union only sees extra money if they go over their 4 hour minimum. Usually on a union call for a concert there are two 4 hour calls, one for the load in and one for the load out. Then you have a handful of guys who get a show call, spot ops, stage hands, an electrician and a rigger. If either 4 hour call is breached then the union goes into overtime.
Most places that have a strict, finable, 11pm curfew are amphitheaters that have local noise ordnances to follow. There are curfews in arenas but most allow a few extra minutes without getting all bent out of shape.
That said, it is true that the labor bill is usually way higher (30-50%) in a union hall. However in most instances you get a much better quality of worker so the job goes faster.
Oh and just FYI if a band goes over the band does not pay the promoter does. Metallica and Pearl Jam aren't paying those fines out of pocket.
reddread
(6,896 posts)the agenda of modern media in all its crippled forms, and the dissipation of journalistic ethics and quality control are not unrelated.
we are lost at sea in an ocean of noise.
LuvNewcastle
(16,835 posts)The Wizard
(12,536 posts)For all I know he could be a Liberace impersonator, but then again, I'm old.
LuvNewcastle
(16,835 posts)At least I'd hear some good piano music.
onethatcares
(16,163 posts)should allow him to have more time without paying for it also.
he's a turd.
Dirty Socialist
(3,252 posts)Never heard of it. Is it a Deep Purple tribute band?
Tom Ripley
(4,945 posts)pintobean
(18,101 posts)All this union support (so far anyway) is fantastic.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)As Flyn correctly states, this is a "big venue" matter. At the small venues the vast majority of bands play at, there's very little money floating around for anyone involved, be they band, band crew (if any), promoter, venue staff, and even the club owner. It's just another "working stiff" part of the economy that's gotten screwed over for the last 30 years. A band is lucky to take home fifty bucks from a gig (yes, band...not each member thereof).
Playing at a big venue usually means a substantial door (either ticket sales or a good-sized cover charge). Unless you're a big, major-label draw, that still doesn't mean a ton of money floating around, so in places where event staff is unionized (and even if they're not, depending on the contract terms for the gig), bands and promoters have to be careful about playing over the set time. Paying overtime is expensive, obviously, and while I don't for one second buy that "$1000/minute" bullshit, that means stopping on time, even if you've really got it going and the crowd's into it.
krawhitham
(4,641 posts)Gidney N Cloyd
(19,824 posts)KansDem
(28,498 posts)How often have we heard or read about rock concerts starting late?
Gigs, though, are a whole other thing; it has become accepted that they begin late. And "late" has been getting ever later in the last couple of years. The support act might wander onstage at 8.30pm - 9pm is more common - and if the main band show their faces by 9.30pm, you're lucky. Chances are, though, it won't be 9.30pm; it'll be 10pm or later. At a show by American singer Jeffrey Lewis in Leeds last month, he was still soundchecking at 11pm, and when Guns N' Roses made a comeback of sorts in 2006, their Hammersmith Apollo gig began at 11pm, and ended two hours later, well after the last tube, leaving their immensely long-suffering fans with a choice of the night bus or an expensive taxi ride. And I don't even need to mention (but will anyway) the tardiness of rappers, which results in performances that don't kick off till the milkman has started his round.
http://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2007/nov/02/whydogigsstartsolate
Aren't rock stars' cavalier attitudes about starting on time their way of striking back at The Establishment?
frylock
(34,825 posts)joeybee12
(56,177 posts)In no way shape or form can Mr. Flynn be considered a "star"
House of Roberts
(5,164 posts)I've heard of Motörhead.
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)hence this putz can't be a star if they're so well hidden.
Johonny
(20,819 posts)Do you think the popularity of the band is waning?
No, I just think it is becoming more selective.
riqster
(13,986 posts)That is all.
SwankyXomb
(2,030 posts)I'd make sure that copies of his whining were sent to the unions at all his upcoming venues.
Spirochete
(5,264 posts)Sounds like a band that would never have to worry about playing overtime anyhow - because they'd have to clear out to make way for the headliners...
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)And it's much better.
frylock
(34,825 posts)so get your ass out on the stage at 8P so the headliner can start playing by 9:30. this is why I rarely ever go to shows on a weekday.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)Flyn's income is more dependent on shows because of the RIAA. Picking on the near minimum-wagers working there is airheaded.
fishwax
(29,148 posts)Buddyblazon
(3,014 posts)I was a Production Manager and Stage Manager for Live Nation.
What's wrong with the industry is the guarantee's being written into contracts. They'll promise an act $80k (every act gets them now) before a single ticket has sold. Half the time the shows don't sell well. So were do you suppose companies like Live Nation make up that money? On the little guys. The PM's...the stage hands...the stage manager. No pay has gone up in 15 years in that industry...right about the time the guarantee became regular hat.
I hear they replaced me with a kid out of college who is doing it for about half of what I was being paid....and I didn't make shit. One of my former employees called me yesterday to tell me how clueless the guy was and how productions have gone to shit because nobody is getting the information they need...because the kid just doesn't know. It's not like the old days where somebody was brought up and groomed. We were introduced to our contacts years ago and we were expected to develop relationships with them.
Not no more. This kid was dragged down from Detroit. No connects here. Doesn't know anybody. And doesn't know how to treat anybody.
Live music is dead. Long live live music.