General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNaive theories of revolution
Last edited Sat Apr 5, 2014, 11:08 PM - Edit history (1)
I've heard it from various sectors most of my life: what this country needs is a revolution
I used to say it myself, back in my pothead days during the Nixon era. Looking back, I can only be embarrassed by that, since my impression now is that my friends and I really only ever said that as an excuse not to do anything: this won't work, that won't work, nothing will work except a revolution
I still hear it today, time to time, almost always from strangers when I'm hoping to get them to do something: nah, that won't work, we need a revolution. But when I talk to them, they always remind me of my friends and myself forty-some years ago: they just don't sound like they have any definite idea what they're talking about; they never appear to have spent much time educating themselves about any of the many boring details; they seem lost and groping for a slogan and a quick fix
A real revolution involves seizing power, usually by force, so one needs to understand exactly what powers exist and how those powers are used and what is accomplished by the use of those powers. In a country such as the modern US, such an analysis may require very hard and tedious work. You need to consider the various ways your opponents could fight back against you, if you threaten their power, and in fact there are many ways. I think it is pointless to attempt a complete enumeration here, but note that would-be revolutionaries do not control the instruments of communication, do not control distribution of essential consumer products, and do not control local or state police or the national military -- any of which might be used to thwart a attempted seizure of power: in a region in open rebellion, one might anticipate responses from newspapers, radio or television; one might anticipate curtailed phone or internet services; one might anticipate curtailed electricity or gasoline or food supply; one might anticipate use of state or local police or of the national military
In a politically divided country such as the US, revolution almost certainly entails civil war, and such wars are complicated: their outcomes involve such considerations as: who is best organized, who controls strategic positions, and who has superior access to personnel and materiel resources. The outcome of a violent struggle, under these circumstances, is likely to be significant demolition of infrastructure and a high casualty rate, leaving political scars that last generations
Politics remains essential throughout any revolution and into whatever post-revolutionary period follows. One simply cannot neglect issues of public opinion, and this requires not only understanding of local conditions but also the clear statement of concrete aims
And merely aiming to overthrow an existing system is inadequate as a concrete aim. It is always easier to organize people in opposition to an existing system, than it is to organize people to work together for some positive change: social discontents are perennial. At the bottom line, this means that the population can endorse revolution long before there is any real consensus about what is to be done, after seizing power from those who hold it, because the revolutionaries are likely to be a motley mix of people with different ideas. Anyone, who hopes a great leader will emerge to resolve that problem, will probably be sorely disappointed, for great leaders are always scarce: it is very common, that people who want to be considered great leaders turn out to be as shallow and self-centered in their thinking as most everyone else
Remembering some history of revolutions and rebellions might be useful here
The Bolsheviks seized power in Russia in 1917, but promptly confronted substantial technical difficulties, such as keeping rail transport reliable. That October revolution was followed by five years of civil war, during which Stalin managed to embed himself safely in the party apparatus, after which he managed to consolidate dictatorial power for himself. As Trotsky wrote from exile in Mexico: The party organization substitutes itself for the party, the central committee substitutes itself for the organization, and, finally, a dictator substitutes himself for the central committee. The Bolsheviks had once organized around the slogan "All power to the worker-soldier councils" but when this did not prove immediately workable, it was abandoned in favor of highly-consolidated power
The left-wing German revolution of 1918 led to abdication of the Kaiser and formation of a new weak state, with little power; the entire Weimar era was wracked by political violence; and within barely a decade and a half, the right-wing Nazis were in control. The revolution had been largely spontaneous, and at the moment when it seemed to have succeeded, people started to look for "leaders" -- with the result that existing politicians stepped forward, promising that they knew how to handle matters: this meant that they compromised with rightwing extremists against the left, producing a complete and permanent split between the KPD and SPD that ultimately prevented any united front against the Nazis in the early 1930s
The Iranian revolution provides another instructive case. Here, opposition to the Shah included both liberal and fundamentalist groups, but it became politically expedient to organize from religious locations, as these were not as easy for the Shah's supporters to attack. So, at the end of day, the fundamentalists had firm control of the organizations and rather than a liberalized state, a fundamentalist theocracy resulted
The South African experience shows that it can be possible to make some progress in such struggles, but the partial success there involved several peculiar features: the aggrieved class formed the majority of the country's inhabitants, and it was so essential to the economy that it was represented in almost every workplace; there was a long history of failed resistance, from which not only organizers but the public-at-large eventually began to learn specific lessons; organizing occurred in multiple venues, over an extended period; there were well-established and clearly-stated goals, and the political questions were constantly considered
The Russian experience suggests the dangers of a revolution led by a political minority; the German experience, the dangers of merely spontaneous revolution; and the Iranian experience, the dangers of revolutions involving groups with no common goal other than overthrow of the existing system. The South African example is instructive for its reliance on mass organizing, across society, with decreased emphasis on leaders and careful attention to political work
Whether one considers oneself a reformist or styles oneself a revolutionary, it is simply impossible to win long-term struggles without grassroots organizing for concrete goals, using every political tool available to us, and the choice of goals, the skilled organizing work, and the political effort all require understanding and experience that may take years to develop and to teach to those who want to win the fights
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)Your thesis statements seems to contradict your conclusion. You open by talking of the futility of revolution and then enumerate examples of how revolutions more or less fail, and then say the people need to organize. Why? You just said revolutions are futile so why should people organize? To preserve the status quo? Why bother organizing institutional inertia does just fine there. To offer a counter-balance to the status quo? That is how revolutions are made and you just said to be wary of them.
struggle4progress
(118,280 posts)who advocates revolution, if that person hasn't given serious thought to what revolution would entail
I won't regard as a serious person anyone, who advocates revolution, if that person doesn't understand the existing powers that might be brought against a revolutionary attempt in the US -- denial of access to tools for individual communication, counter-propaganda from the existing industry of communication, loss of such necessities for urban life such as electricity or food supply, counteraction from armed local or state or federal forces
I won't regard as a serious person anyone, who advocates revolution, if that person hasn't considered carefully the cost of a prolonged violent national struggle
I won't regard as a serious person anyone, who advocates revolution, if that person won't think clearly about the political aspects of a revolution: the need for clearly stated goals, the importance of understanding local conditions, the problems of factionalism within the movement, and so on
I certainly won't regard as a serious person anyone, who advocates revolution, if that person imagines that merely uniting to overthrow the existing order, without more definite goals, could be adequate
In particular, I won't regard as a serious person anyone, who advocates revolution, if that person will work happily with anyone, regardless of their ultimate goals, just because that other person agrees that the existing order should be overthrown
I won't regard as a serious person anyone, who advocates revolution, if that person doesn't have workable ideas about restoring functional order in the post-revolutionary period
I won't regard as a serious person anyone, who advocates revolution, if that person thinks we merely need better leaders to follow: leaders are easily removed and replaced
I won't, in fact, regard as a serious person anyone, who advocates revolution, if that person doesn't realize that any tolerable revolution in the US would take decades of work to organize, that it requires producing a substantial political consensus, and that revolutions carried out by a distinct minority are likely to produce disaster
Neither will I regard as a serious person anyone, who advocates revolution, if that person thinks we can sweep away the existing order in a spontaneous moment and obtain a good outcome as a result
I won't regard as a serious person anyone, who advocates revolution, if that person is not willing to learn from the failures and successes of the past
Anyone who wants change, either by reform or by revolution, faces a long hard road: it will require developing political knowledge and political analytical ability across a large sector of society; it will require educating large numbers of people how to organize and how to work for change;
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)Those are fair points. I think people who do seriously see revolution as a contingency would agree with your assessment.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)I've studied revolutions from history and especially the "spontaneous" February revolution AND the October revolution. And I've even thought a lot about the issues raised in the OP and this post. In fact, that's why after 40 years of being a "salon" Trotskyist, I finally joined a group. A group is supposed to BE the vanguard which means they have to think about these issues.
socialist_n_TN: A serious revolutionary.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)"Whether one considers oneself a reformist or styles oneself a revolutionary, it is simply impossible to win long-term struggles without grassroots organizing for concrete goals, using every political tool available to us, and the choice of goals, the skilled organizing work, and the political effort all require understanding and experience that may take years to develop and to teach to those who want to win the fights "
doesn't seem like a call to revolution, but a call to organize and vote.
I think you are of the mind that there are only 2 possibilities:
1) Doing nothing, OR, 2) Revolution. Am I correct?
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)Corruption Inc
(1,568 posts)It's fellow propagandists love it.
TexasProgresive
(12,157 posts)Stability will come but what form it will take is unknown. Everyone who hopes for revolution is under the mistaken notion that they will benefit from the outcome. It seems there is always a Robespierre, Hitler, Stalin or Miloević waiting in the wings to show the proletariat the error of their ways.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)Most of the time, I think people call for revolution because the great change many expected did not happen. It is a way of opening up the window and screaming, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore." No one thinks about the cost to the nation or to the individual. It is the idea of change where everything will be exactly as I/we the left want it to be.
Revolutions are nasty uncomfortable things. Even a non-violent revolution like those led by Gandhi or King were not non-violent. The other side never promises to play nice. And there have been few leaders in history that had the charisma or ability to lead that type of revolution.
The US Government is not designed to change in radical ways. Circumstances must be dire for something to happen like FDR or the 60's. It requires leaders willing to push major changes and a Congress with enough members willing to deliver.
Those things are not going to happen, if people are not willing to get out and elect a Congress and Senate that will deliver it will not happen. Also, it is very likely that it is impossible to elect enough people willing to deliver in the current system.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)But settling for working within the existing order consigns the majority to nothing but nastiness and lack of comfort.
It's not like anything positive is protected by settling for watered-down reformism.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)It isn't fast, but it is achievable. Small changes are still change. Many small changes will achieve the big changes people want, eventually.
Revolutions are often romanticized and always mythologized by those who didn't sacrifice in its fire.
Those who decide on revolution need to be ready to bleed, kill, to die, or both. This is true even in non-violent revolutions because the opposition never choses to go quietly and never plays fair.
Changes rarely have the effect people want or plan because no system is perfect. Social Security works great now, but it went through a couple of decades of change. The Civil rights Act of 1964 was the last of about half a dozen civil rights acts that never worked. And it required changes to expand it to others, and it still is short of perfect.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)It seems to me that "reformism", at this point, is exhausted as a political concept...and there are serious issues with the old concepts of "revolution".
airplaneman
(1,239 posts)I hope that movement will be for income equality and living in harmony with the earth.
I think we are beginning to wake up for a possible movement.
-Airplane
kath
(10,565 posts)...Since the Senate is PART of Congress. our legislature, or Congress, consists of two branches or "houses" -the Senate and the House of Representatives.
<end of lesson>
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)I agree with you, wishing for a revolution is a cop-out, an excuse to not do the hard everyday work of actually organizing.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)struggle4progress
(118,280 posts)panader0
(25,816 posts)BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)Revolutions are the engines of human 'progress', providing dramatic paradigm shifts which change the course of events. To say that revolutions are failure is automatically the mark of a conservative outlook, and negates the great good they did often in spite of failure.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)The Renaissance was a "dramatic paradigm shift" in the arts and intellectual pursuits. The Enlightment of the 18th century was a "dramatic paradigm shift" - which PRECEDED any actual political revolutions. Freud and Jung brought about "dramatic paradigm shifts" in how humans perceive their inner selves. Every technological advance, from gun powder to the internet brings about "dramatic paradigm shifts". These things were ALL engines of human progress.
As for "chang(ing) the course of events" - change itself IS the course of events, throughout all human history.
An actual political revolution, involving the violent overthrow of a government, is not only risky - look no further than the Iranian Revolution for an example of what can go very badly wrong - it's not in itself an actual paradigm shift. Revolutions only arise due to paradigm shifts that have already happened, not the other way around.
True paradigm shifts are a matter of EVOLUTION, not revolution.
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)The Renaissance accompanied a top-down revolution as feudal power turned into a feudal-legalistic state power out of which were numerous, catastrophic upheavals during the Reformation. You might have heard of one of these conflicts, a little skirmish known as the Thirty Years War. Also you forget that out of the enlightenment was born direct and violent conflict between the emergent merchant aristocracy and their liberal-republican ideology and the ossified forms of the previous feudal-legalistic state powers.
You have the causes down, gradual changing of the social/economic/religious fabric of society benefiting less and less people or otherwise becoming unfit due to an inability or unwillingness to deal with environmental stressors. Your conclusion that revolutions are therefore unnecessary is a highly dubious claim and an extremely ahistoric one at that.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)killbotfactory
(13,566 posts)"Whether one considers oneself a reformist or styles oneself a revolutionary, it is simply impossible to win long-term struggles without grassroots organizing for concrete goals, using every political tool available to us, and the choice of goals, the skilled organizing work, and the political effort all require understanding and experience that may take years to develop and to teach to those who want to win the fights"
Probably not a message that resonates among the young, but it's very true.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)changes in our country. If we can do that, we will be able to improve things a great deal.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)NOBODY wants them to actually WIN and then be in charge.
struggle4progress
(118,280 posts)We could march into battle against the existing system with a bunch of RWNJs -- but then someday there would come an inevitable and ugly day of reckoning: either we purge them and earn a permanent reputation as perfidious bastards, earning cartloads of popular enmity, or they carry the day by purging us
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)It's like they believe they will step out over the corpses of the SWAT Team and be hailed as a hero by the public.
Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)showing this thread to my big sister, but she sometimes acts like such a know-it-all that she probably would brush this off. Sometimes when we discuss politics, she tells me that she thinks that a revolution is near, and that eventually enough people will get impatient with the pace of change here. I've reminded her that no civilian is a match for the U.S. military, but then she told me that with enough people, the civilians can at least "put up a fight".
I agree with her on just about everything in politics, but I think these discussions we sometimes have about revolutions are kinda weird.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)Revolutions will NEVER happen without at LEAST the neutrality of the military and especially the "grunts" the EMs and NCOs. And in fact, the BEST outcome is when the EMs and NCOs come over to the SIDE of the revolution and turn their guns on the owners. Which is why a revolution is a fairly long way off in this country, IMO.
There's a pretty simple general rule about revolutions and pre-revolutionary situations. When the rulers can't continue to rule like they have in the past and when the people refuse to be ruled like they have been in the past, you have a pre-revolutionary situation and ANY spark can set it off.
1000words
(7,051 posts)including the manner in which it is expressed.
Looking back only gives us an idea of how it's been done before. Imagination will provide the means for how it will be done ... again.
greyl
(22,990 posts)Exposethefrauds
(531 posts)that only has a very slight risk of arrest. With the high risk of death in a revolution the turnout will be even smaller.
The vast majority of Gun Toting Shit Talking RWNJ's were never in the military and have never even been shot at before and soon as they are shot at they will crap their pants and run back home to their basement and go to FreakRepublic and post how they stood up to the libtards.
Blanks
(4,835 posts)We recently had the Arab Spring which was not only a revolution, but a modern revolution. Which, despite the ability of the 'revolutionaries' to communicate more effectively as well as all the information in the world in the palm of their hands - they still had all of the problems of the other revolutions that you mention.
It would seem that the inherent downfalls associated with revolution have not changed.
When you look at the 1776 American revolution, what really has made America stand out was its first president. After serving two terms - he stepped down. As popular as he was, he could have 'ruled' for life.
My point is that it may be a matter of luck whether a revolution turns out successful or not.
MineralMan
(146,287 posts)and in this venue.
Thank you!
chrisa
(4,524 posts)The violence was one-sided, but through peaceful action, they were successful. They didn't overthrow the current political structure - they bent it to their will.
What you're describing is a coup - an illegal and brutish way to seize power. Anyone who advocates a coup should never be trusted.
randome
(34,845 posts)We have yet to meet everyone in our country. If voting could be made seamless, secure and convenient, who knows what direction we may choose?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]
gulliver
(13,180 posts)I would even call it probable. In 2014, if there were a viral voting fad, a voting flash mob where every left leaner did the two-step (register and vote straight Democrat), a revolution would be accomplished in a single day. That revolution could create legalized marijuana, across-the-board gay marriage legalization, adding a public option to the Obamacare exchanges, expanding Medicaid, recognition of climate change, increasing the minimum wage, vastly expanded access to education, and loads of other improvements.
A couple of hours to register and vote.
The idea of old-style revolution is nutty, like trying to unscramble an egg with chopsticks and a turkey baster.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Let's just keep right on doing the same old shit we've been doing for 30+ years, it's working so damn well.
I suggest you look up what Einstein had to say about that mindset.
Fail.
MineralMan
(146,287 posts)Put at least as much time and though into it as the OP of this thread did. That would be great.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)... those that don't toe the party line around here?
Think I'll pass on painting that bullseye on myself.
Have a a nice day.
MineralMan
(146,287 posts)But without some framework for what you suggest, you have nothing but an isolated idea.
Change comes when ideas and plans are expressed. If you can't do that here, then DU is probably not your best venue.
In any case, you've given me nothing to work with in response.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)... not be fooled by the same old BS anymore. I "gave you" my opinion from my experiences, sorry that doesn't fit your wants.
MineralMan
(146,287 posts)Nor do I have the power to give permission for anything.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)with ALL details laid out in an internet post.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)I personally find this to be an insult to my intelligence. As if the motives behind it are not evident.
MineralMan
(146,287 posts)can't be detailed here, where will you find enough people to carry out such a plan? A "complete socialist revolution" is going to require a lot of people who share the same goals and strategy. If such goals and strategies cannot be verbalized or written, then how is that revolution going to occur?
Numbers are required. Large numbers. Where will you find them?
Corruption Inc
(1,568 posts)Your post is a typical abusive line where some troll exclaims his superiority while not actually saying anything at all so, WTF are your plans?
Go ahead, tell us your plans instead of defending a known propagandists BULLSHIT.
MineralMan
(146,287 posts)I do not know you.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)when the ruled refuse to be ruled in the old way you have a revolutionary situation. We aren't close to a revolutionary situation. Yet. But we're closer than we've been in a long time. Probably the 30s were the last time we were this close and over largely the same reasons. The 60s were active, but the mass movement there was over civil rights and the war. The fix to those problems was relatively easy. End the war and get rid of the actual LAWS that spelled out inequality. When that was done, people settled into the "Everything's OK now!" mode and went back to living their lives. There was not an overarching economic crisis to involve the working class on a mass scale.
The basis for revolutionary feelings today are the '08 Crash and the sense that the average person is worse off economically than before and getting even more worse off by the day. And the feeling that the game is rigged in favor of the wealthy. When enough people get fed up enough to organize into vanguard type groups and when those groups get over themselves enough to stop fighting over minutia and concentrate on shutting down the economy, we'll have evolved into a pre-revolutionary situation. When the rest of the masses, the ones who don't organize into groups, get fed up enough to stop co-operating in the current economic model AND start co-operating with the vanguard groups, we move into a revolutionary situation.
At that point, the script needs to be workplace and neighborhood councils who control their own areas AND co-operate on projects outside those areas. As a for instance, the Teamsters who've expropriated the owners means of transportation (trucks, trains, etc) carry food to distribute into the cities. City militias guard the transport and distribute the food, which is expropriated from the Big Agricultural concerns. All of this is accompanied by a general strike involving, at least, a large minority of the businesses.
More later perhaps. But remember, I've never said we're there yet.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)In Venezuela and other Latin American countries,
The People have removed their 1% from power and replaced them with actual representatives of The People
through near bloodless Ballot Box Revolutions.
NOW.... the Poor are celebrating,
and the RICH are protesting.
I LIKE that arrangement.
VIVA Democracy!
I pray we get some here soon.
Warpy
(111,251 posts)Revolutions can also be mostly non violent, like the one that led to the New Deal. All it took was a politician that everybody expected to be a weakling and defender of his class to be a turncoat.
The last 50 years, this country has undergone a massive social revolution, again mostly nonviolent, that has empowered women and non Europeans. Yes, we still have a way to go, but look where we started!
A new economic revolution can still be mostly non violent. I hope one will be allowed. Violent revolutions rarely work as advertised because the 1% simply change hats and stay where they are.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.
― Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Zorra
(27,670 posts)And the text of this document to be the product of "serious thought"?
IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government....
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.html
And these men to be serious people?
Column 1
Georgia:
Button Gwinnett
Lyman Hall
George Walton
Column 2
North Carolina:
William Hooper
Joseph Hewes
John Penn
South Carolina:
Edward Rutledge
Thomas Heyward, Jr.
Thomas Lynch, Jr.
Arthur Middleton
Column 3
Massachusetts:
John Hancock
Maryland:
Samuel Chase
William Paca
Thomas Stone
Charles Carroll of Carrollton
Virginia:
George Wythe
Richard Henry Lee
Thomas Jefferson
Benjamin Harrison
Thomas Nelson, Jr.
Francis Lightfoot Lee
Carter Braxton
Column 4
Pennsylvania:
Robert Morris
Benjamin Rush
Benjamin Franklin
John Morton
George Clymer
James Smith
George Taylor
James Wilson
George Ross
Delaware:
Caesar Rodney
George Read
Thomas McKean
Column 5
New York:
William Floyd
Philip Livingston
Francis Lewis
Lewis Morris
New Jersey:
Richard Stockton
John Witherspoon
Francis Hopkinson
John Hart
Abraham Clark
Column 6
New Hampshire:
Josiah Bartlett
William Whipple
Massachusetts:
Samuel Adams
John Adams
Robert Treat Paine
Elbridge Gerry
Rhode Island:
Stephen Hopkins
William Ellery
Connecticut:
Roger Sherman
Samuel Huntington
William Williams
Oliver Wolcott
New Hampshire:
Matthew Thornton
--------
Revolution:
"Our strategy should be not only to confront empire, but to lay siege to it. To deprive it of oxygen. To shame it. To mock it. With our art, our music, our literature, our stubbornness, our joy, our brilliance, our sheer relentlessness and our ability to tell our own stories. Stories that are different from the ones were being brainwashed to believe.
The corporate revolution will collapse if we refuse to buy what they are selling their ideas, their version of history, their wars, their weapons, their notion of inevitability.
Remember this: We be many and they be few. They need us more than we need them.
Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing.
― Arundhati Roy, War Talk
----