Donetsk, Kharkiv, declare independence from Ukraine.

[MattSh]

DONETSK, Ukraine (AP) — Pro-Moscow activists barricaded inside government buildings in eastern Ukraine proclaimed their regions independent Monday and called for a referendum on seceding from Ukraine — an ominous echo of the events that led to Russia's annexation of Crimea.

The Ukrainian government accused Russia of stirring up the unrest and tried to flush the assailants from some of the seized buildings, setting off fiery clashes in one city. Russia, which has tens of thousands of troops massed along the border, sternly warned Ukraine against using force.

In Washington, the U.S. said any move by Russia into eastern Ukraine would be a "very serious escalation" that could bring further sanctions. White House spokesman Jay Carney said there was strong evidence that some of the pro-Russian protesters were hired and were not local residents.

At the same time, the U.S. announced that Secretary of State John Kerry will meet with top diplomats from Russia, Ukraine and the European Union in a new push to ease tensions. The meeting, the first such four-way talks since the crisis erupted, will take place in the next 10 days, the State Department said.

Pro-Russian activists who seized the provincial administrative building in the city of Donetsk over the weekend announced the formation Monday of the independent Donetsk People's Republic.

http://news.yahoo.com/pro-russians-call-east-ukraine-region-independent-130537460--finance.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. Hmm.."somebody told me here this would not escalate

[davidpdx]

3. I had several people tell me I was wrong about it escalating

I'd post the threads but it would be a hide for sure.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Well, we are getting closer to the point of decision for NATO

And it won't be pretty.

[joshcryer]

4. Yup...

[Recursion]

2. Western Ukraine should pre-empt them and declare a Republic of Ruthenia

I'm only half-kidding.

[MattSh]

6. Won't happen.

The wealth of the country is in the east, and the west knows that.

[eridani]

5. Let's face it--the Ukraine is like Czechoxlovakia--it needs a Velvet Divorce.

Then the west could ally with EU and the east with Russia.

BTW, I suppose it's just AOK with everyone that Crimeans never got a chance to vote on whether or not they wanted to be transferred to the Ukrain in the first place.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

8. The Russians have no interest in allying with Eastern Ukraine.

The Russians want to skip the formalities and simply annex Eastern Ukraine so they can have it all for themselves.

And now, with the Ukrainian government at its weakest, it is the Russians' best chance to do so. So what we see is not unexpected, although it is clearly wrong.

They are seriously overplaying their hands though with these Eastern Ukrainian cities, assuming that just because many of the citizens speak Russian that their loyalties will go to Russia. The fact of the matter is that most of them consider themselves ethnic Ukrainians regardless of the language issue (many of them having no choice but to be raised speaking Russian due to Soviet dominance). But that's Russia's lesson to be learned.

And regarding Crimea, Crimea was transferred to the Ukrainian SSR during the Soviet era. Moscow controlled everything, so Crimea falling under the Ukrainian SSR was of little consequence at that time. When the USSR broke apart, Crimea remained under Ukrainian control under its natural borders, although semi-autonomously so. And while there was talk of full independence, the notion of Crimea being annexed and absorbed into Russia didn't arise until the change in power in Kiev. Which again clearly demonstrates Russian subterfuge.

[eridani]

11. So just never mind that Crimeans had no choice about joining the Ukraine

If they want out now, why shouldn't they go?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

17. Again, that was an internal re-organziation within the Soviet Union.

But as it relates to here and now, it should be noted that there was already a referendum on Crimean independence that would have been sanctioned by the Ukrainian government. Its quite possible that vote could have passed.

However, the Russians saw it unfit to allow that vote to go on as scheduled, and instead had the hastily organized 97% referendum on Russian annexation of Crimea while Russian boots were on the ground. Regardless of any pro-Russian sentiment in Crimea, that particular vote cannot be seen as a legitimate expression of the will of the people.

[eridani]

22. And the '54 annexation was even less of an expression of the will of the people

Face it--this country needs a Velvet Divorce. It would make it so much easier for westerners to ally with EU as well.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

23. 1954 didn't really matter all that much.

Same Soviet boss all around. It would be like giving Michigan's upper peninsula to Wisconsin.....yeah, there'd be some changes locally, but it's all the same country. And in a strong authoritarian society like the Soviet Union, local control mattered even less.

Regarding your "velvet divorce" proposal, for 22 years post Soviet fall there was no serious talk of splitting up the country, and certainly no talk of ceding Eastern Ukraine to Russia (which is what the Russians ultimately want). It's only when the Ukrainian government is perceived to be the weakest (which honestly, in its interim condition before a new President can be elected, it is) that there's suddenly been talk of "secession" fueled by Russian interests.

Russia knows exactly what it's doing, and it know that this is the best time to make its move on Ukrainian territory. This crisis has been created entirely by Russia and for Russia.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

7. Funny how the flags of "Independent" Donetsk and Khrakiv look *exactly* like that of Russia.

Funny how all this "independence" talk only sprung up at a time when everyone knows the Ukrainian government--in its interim condition prior to elections in May--is at its very weakest. For over 22 years, there was very little concrete talk of any of these regions breaking away or joining Russia.

Seriously, anyone who insists that what we are seeing in Ukraine isn't a blatant, in your face, Russian subterfuge operation is either a) willfully blind to the facts staring them in the face, or b) like the OP, an out-and-out Putin apologist only playing stupid.

The rest of us, we saw this coming. And we know who is stoking the fire. And it ain't the Ukrainians doing it.

[MattSh]

15. And a lot of the flags at the Kiev demonstrations...

look similar to those Nazis would use.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

18. So you're saying what? Ukraine wants to join 1930s Nazi Germany?

Spin the Maidan protests all you want--and oh, how you ever have done so!--but the bottom line remains that it was a Ukrainian movement about Ukraine, the country in which the protests took place.

Whereas what you see in places like Donetsk, Khrakiv, it is about a foreign (and substantial) power that protesters presumably desire to see annex portions of the country that they are currently in, thus violating basic principles of sovereignty. These protesters cannot even pretend to say they have the best interests of Ukraine at heart. And that is quite a dangerous powder keg with which to be playing.

[The Magistrate]

19. That Is A Good Question, Sir

Some apparently feel that an a-historical and anachronistic chant of "Nazis! Nazis are coming!' suffices to carry the day in favor of the imperial ambitions of the leading actual fascist in the world today, one V. Putin....

[MattSh]

24. That's quite a leap.

You're the one mentioning 1930's, not me.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

25. Really?

Because you are the one who seems intent on comparing the Ukrainian interim (!) government to Hitler, which is such an incredibly laughable notion I have a hard time taking it seriously.

Oh, you have it here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024673097

Or there's your little nugget of wisdom in here:

http://election.democraticunderground.com/10024677598

"This recent situation in Crimea, I believe, is a godsend. First, it has permitted the situation here in Kiev to assume a certain level of normalcy. And I've been thinking recently that how much better the 20th century would have been if, within the first couple of months of Hitler's rule in Germany, someone had decided it was time to put an end to his nonsense and went ahead and invaded Germany. Maybe people in the states don't learn from history, but it certainly looks like Mr. Putin has."

We're not all stupid here. When someone is so transparent as to his agenda, it's not that hard to see right through him.

[joeybee12]

20. Yeah, right...

Still peddling Putin's propganda I see.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. Yet another good reason we should stay the hell out of the squabble.

[Junkdrawer]

12. What's good for the goose...

How did the current government of Ukraine come to power again?

[The Magistrate]

13. Not Quite Accurate, Sir: 'Small Group Of Protesters Issue Manifesto' Would Be More Like It

They have no standing, and no power, save what foreign troops might move in to supply by invasion.

[MattSh]

14. I'm posting what the news story says...

Quibble with them, if you'd like.

[The Magistrate]

16. 'Pro-Russians call east Ukraine region independent' Was the Headline, Sir

The wording at the head of this thread is yours, and is a distortion of the report you cite.

[joeybee12]

21. +1 and also the Nazi reference was his also...

One wonders if some people here are in Putin's PR Department.