Useful Information: Homeopathy doesn't mean Alternative Medicine

[cthulu2016]

I wanted to make this point out of the context of anything inflammatory because it is just a bit of information that would, if universally recognized, have prevented a great deal of conflict.

This post does not critique any alternative medical practice whatsoever except for homeopathy.

Homeopathy is not, or at least should not be used as, a catch-all term for alternative medicine. I do not know how that got started... perhaps a confusion with the term "holistic medicine," or perhaps because some practitioners of various alternative medicines misapplied the term.

Homeopathy is a very specific thing that almost nobody would want to defend. It isn't herbs or accupuncture or mega-vitamins or yoga or anything other than homeopathy. It isn't unconventional medicine in general.

Homeopathy means something along the lines of "like disease." It began as a theory that poisons that mimic certain symptoms would treat diseases that cause those symptoms.

The fact that many poisons do have real medical uses does not change the insanity of the homeopathic theory, which is that poisons that cause a problem treat the same problem.

(Classic Homeopathy reminds me of right wing economics... if unemployment is soaring, cut government spending, thereby increasing unemployment.)

Poisoning sick people turned out to be dangerous, but rather than abandon the notion homeopaths began diluting the poisons and claiming that the diluted poisons had the same effect... that dilution did not reduce the effect.

In the modern world homeopaths will put a drop of some poison in a gallon of water and then take one drop of that and put it in another gallon of water. And then take a drop of that and put it in another gallon... and so on until there is literally only a couple of molecules, or even zero molecules, of the poison left in the water. What remains is just water.

But because that water was once exposed to the poison it somehow "remembers" something about how to cure disease. (Which the poison did not cure in the first place, BTW.)

And, get this... they eventually came to claim that dilution makes the effect stronger!

It is very easy to see why this makes no sense. First, to say that zero molecules of anything has any effect on anything whatsoever completely undoes the entirety of all chemistry, all physics, and most philosophy.

But leaving that aside... All water we ever drink came from the ocean, and will return to the ocean over time. We drink water. We pee in the river. The river flows to the sea. It evaporates and makes clouds. The clouds rain. We drink the water and pee in the river... and so on.

Our water has been exposed to everything... to every chemical in the ocean and on land. The gallon of "pure" water the homeopath starts out with would already be chock full of the properties of every chemical known to man.

And being incredibly diluted (we are talking about the oceans, after all) the properties of all those chemicals would be that much stronger.



Actual homeopathy is considerably crazier than saying the Earth is flat. Nobody would care to defend it.

[hobbit709]

1. But the true believers don't care about facts.

[Orrex]

2. And any alternative medicine that works at all is proof that all alternative medicine works

[Liberal Veteran]

11. Even if the proof is anecdotal.

My cousin's half sister's uncle's friend's grandmother swears reiki massage cured her bursitis that she never actually had diagnosed.

[pnwmom]

23. Except no one here has ever made such a claim.

The fact that any "alternative medicine" works is simply proof that some "alternative medicine" works.

[AikidoSoul]

43. I sincerely doubt that you or the OP have really studied "the facts"

as the comments, mostly ad hominem attacks, are ignorant and even silly.

Samuel Hahnemann (1755-1843) discovered homeopathy which is practiced widely in Europe, and have been used by a long line of royals, including those living now. It is a very effective modality of treatment if used by a practitioner who knows what he or she is doing. It takes a great deal of study and observation of the patient, and listening to the symptoms of the patient. My own doctor was trained in medical school but studied and uses homeopathy himself, and on his family. He is "shy" about using it on patients due to the insane attacks by people like the OP, who seem to be loyal or somehow connected to the chem/pharm industry. That is most dangerous to good doctors if the skeptics of homeopathy sit on licensing boards with judgement powers that can censure, or can revoke licenses. Chem/Pharm has its tentacles of destruction in anything that competes with its bottom line. People who say homeopathy doesn't work are ignorant of the facts. My health has been much improved by homeopathy, and on one occasion, while experiencing anaphlatic shock, a CM dose of histamanium stopped the progression within seconds.

Old man Rockefellar had a homeopathic doctor and used those treatments until he died at a very old age. But that bastard was responsible single-handedly, for creating mechanisms to eliminate the many schools of homeopathy that had sprung up in the U.S. and were having much influence.

Rockefellar saw there were bigger bucks to be made by only treating symptoms.... by what we see now as the main method --- it's called "disease management". Why cure a disease when you effectively lose the $$$ from that patient? Better that the patient remain chronically ill for many years..... and suffer the side effects of the drugs and poisons made by the chem/pharm industry. Never mind that over 130,000 people die in hospitals alone from prescribed drugs. Wonder what the real figure is.... it's got to be mind-blowing! Management of illness is big $$$, but those who only use drugs to treat their diseases are missing out on natural treatments that can bring them back to health.

[MattBaggins]

45. Samuel Hahnemann pulled Homeopathy out of his ass

Those of us who point out the silliness of Homeopathy are people with backgrounds in Science.

I know you probably believe you were actually in anaphylactic shock and that some water stopped it, but I will say with 100.00000001% certainty that it did not.

I could care less what Kings and Queens have supported it past or present. Charles is a moron, Prince or not.

I am sorry Homeopathy is 100% falsifiable. Basic high school science can prove it to be nothing but bullshit. Yes PROVE it.

[AikidoSoul]

56. Ad hominem attacks are the tool of those who hope to convince others by crude

comments. Keep it up and you will find your credibility in the toilet.

You should be the one to prove that it doesn't work. I've already proved that it does work, and I know many highly intelligent people, including scientists, who use it.

There is such a thing as energy medicine that is viable and workable. And since I've seen so many people helped by it in many clear and dramatic ways, my proof is the fact that people can be truly improved or even cured of illness by energy medicine. If you choose poisonous drugs instead.... well that's your choice. The side effects themselves can cause illness and death, or don't you listen to the symptoms cited by the narrators of these misleading TV ads.... often with little butterflies twittering about, and lots of pretty flowers, blue skies.... and other "natural" and beautiful things that help brainwash people into associating the poison with something God made.

[MattBaggins]

57. I did not ad hominem anyone but Prince Charles

and he is a moron.

You should really really really look into Argumentum ab auctoritate before worrying about other peoples arguments.


I am sorry but you have not in any way shape or form proven that Homeopathy works. You never will since BASIC HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL SCIENCE will show it to be utter nonsense.

You may feel you are being attacked but if you were insisting that 1+1=3, you would have as many people pointing out the fallacy to you.

[AikidoSoul]

63. Well no wonder! You were using "basic high school science".

That explains it.

[AikidoSoul]

65. Only "one ad hominem attack"?

Don't forget your lead line Baggins:

"Samuel Hahnemann pulled Homeopathy out of his ass."

That's a perfect example of ad hominem, 6th grade "argumentum ad ignorantiam."

[enki23]

115. Just so you know, "ad hominem attack" is basically a redundancy.

Maybe stick with worrying about ad hominem arguments. Say, "homeopathy is stupid because Prince Charles believe in it and he is stupid" would be an invalid ad hominem argument.

"Prince Charles is stupid because he believes in homeopathy," is a perfectly valid argument against Prince Charles (so long as you dig out the implied premises). And if the premises are good, it's also a sound argument. Which it is.

[hobbit709]

59. quackery is quackery, no matter what you think.

[cthulu2016]

60. You were wise to put quotes around "the facts"

[AikidoSoul]

67. That's what you do when you quote someone's excerpt

so it can be torn to itty bitty pieces.

[pangaia]

84. My dear Aikido Soul,

Do not become too upset at those who ridicule to what you say.
See them as your uke.

From--
Another Aikido soul...

[AikidoSoul]

85. Hmmm....somebody who can think and analyse@

[pangaia]

87. Aikido helped teach me that often

thinking is too slow. It is the slowest.
The body can 'think' much faster than the mind.
The emotions 'think' much faster than the body.

The ones who appear here as uke do not even use their emotional minds. They are acting with the emotional part of their emotions...the lowest human activity..lightening quick... and blinding.

Just turn...

As you know...

[JJChambers]

3. Homeopathy and holistic "medicine" are snake oil products peddled by swindlers

Anyone supporting them or advocating for them should be locked up for being a threat to public safety.

[dhill926]

4. define holistic medicine for us then….

[MoonchildCA]

12. Holistic medicine simply means...

...treating the whole person, not just a particular disease or symptom. It can include any combination of both allopathic and alternative methods. Mental and emotional health can also be considered. I think it's becoming more and more accepted in the mainstream that many diseases need more treatment then just drugs and surgery.

[pnwmom]

25. If you have a hole in your head, you think that "holistic medicine" is equivalent to homeopathy.

If you went to medical school, or are even just well-informed, you know that holistic medicine has zero to do with homeopathy and everything to do with treating the whole person, not just a collection of symptoms.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

31. Holistic medicine has nothing to do with homeopathy. Kinda clueless to lump them together. nt

[Rex]

5. So the body is supposed to produce whatever is lacking in the dilution?

I never could understand the reasoning behind it. I know the brain makes chemicals, so is it up to the brain then to make some chemical to help the body? Because it was not given enough?

Makes no sense to me.

[Major Nikon]

9. Google "water memory"

...if you need a good chuckle.

[Liberal Veteran]

13. I rather like that one. Therefore, tap water is a universal cure. -nt

Of course, by the same token, tap water is a deadly since it remembers all the times a cat took a shit in it.

[SidDithers]

15. Yup...

Sid

[Archae]

6. A chiropractor near me is advertising chiropractic for babies.

Babies??!!??

I constantly see ads on different sites, "Eat this! It'll cure your diabetes/high blood pressure/heart disease/whatever."

This nitwit from "Age Of Autism" is a real dandy.
http://americanloons.blogspot.ca/2014/04/994-julie-obradovic.html

[chrisa]

8. There are good chiropractors, but unfortunately some of them are woo-peddlers.

There's one in my area that claims to cure cancer. I wish I was kidding.

[enki23]

17. A "good" chiropracter sells an overpriced, friendly placebo for a back ache.

A bad chiropractor is one who does anything else.

They're all fucking bad. Some are just worse.

[pnwmom]

28. NIH funded research has shown that chiropractic manipulations

are an effective treatment for back pain.

And I saw it demonstrated before my eyes. My 15 year old son was in excruciating pain after a basketball practice. I took him to our pediatrician, but the only doc who could see him happened to be an osteopath. He asked my son a few questions and then did a couple things to him and -- in an instant -- all the pain disappeared. The same way my daughter's pain instantly disappeared when her displaced elbow got put back into place by her regular doctor. I said that what he did looked to me like what I thought chiropractors do (just from having heard about it -- I'd never been to one.) He acknowledged that the manipulations were the same, and said chiropractors got them from osteopaths.

He said that my son's pain was related to the fact that he was growing so fast, and so his spine had shifted out of alignment, and he gave him some exercises to do to try to develop his muscles in the area. The problem never happened again.

From the NIH's National Center for Complementary and Alternative Center

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/spinalmanipulation

Spinal Manipulation

Spinal manipulation—sometimes called "spinal manipulative therapy"—is practiced by health care professionals such as chiropractors, osteopathic physicians, naturopathic physicians, physical therapists, and some medical doctors. Practitioners perform spinal manipulation by using their hands or a device to apply a controlled force to a joint of the spine. The amount of force applied depends on the form of manipulation used. The goal of the treatment is to relieve pain and improve physical functioning.

Research Spotlights

Spinal Manipulation’s Effects May Go Beyond Those of Placebo or Expectation, Study Finds
(10/27/13)
Determining the Optimal Number of Spinal Manipulation Sessions for Chronic Low-Back Pain
(10/16/13)
Spinal Manipulation or Home Exercise More Effective Than Medication for Acute Neck Pain, Study Finds
(01/03/12)
Review of CAM Practices for Back and Neck Pain Shows Modest Results
(10/01/10)

http://nccam.nih.gov/research/results/spotlight/102713

A recent clinical trial has added to knowledge about what goes on in the body and brain when people with chronic low-back pain receive spinal manipulation (also known as spinal manipulative therapy). The researchers found that spinal manipulation, compared with placebo and no treatment, significantly reduced pain sensitivity. They also reported there was support for a potential biological target to address central sensitization of pain, a phenomenon of heightened pain sensitivity that is linked with acute pain’s transition to chronic pain, and the persistence of chronic pain. The research, supported in part by NCCAM and the National Center for Medical Rehabilitation Research, part of the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, appeared in The Journal of Pain.

[enki23]

30. Oh, holy shit, "may go beyond placebo!" (in select studies, for particular endpoints...)

Stellar evidence there. NCCAM strikes again. We're on the verge of discovering the amazing miracle of... ambiguously small reductions in subjective pain experience in certain very specific sets of endpoints in a few selected studies. "Innate intelligence" for the win! It's all subluxations. Shitty back rubs can make back pain marginally better. Sometimes.

Next step, curing deafness like the founder of chiropractic claimed, after he allegedly received his magic wisdom from the spirit world. He considered it a religious belief.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/chiropractic-a-summary-of-concerns/#more-30980
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/nccam-manipulates-the-information-on-manipulation/

[pnwmom]

40. So may Tylenol and Advil. Neither of which could touch my son's pain.

As I said, it wasn't anything like a back rub. It was much more like watching an MD put an elbow back into the socket.

And, from the link I already gave you, "The researchers found that spinal manipulation, compared with placebo and no treatment, significantly reduced pain sensitivity."

[Patiod]

106. Keep on fighting the good fight, enki23

Someone has to speak up for Science vs. Woo here on DU.

Ever spend any time with the Skeptics Guide to the Universe? If not, you would enjoy it.

[Scout]

113. snort

another medical professional heard from!

chiropractic is not woo. can you see the results from woo on the x-rays, after the pain is gone and a new set of x-rays is taken?

stop pulling shit out of your ass, you're stinking the place up.

[intaglio]

34. No-one argues that Chiropracty is good at manipulating the spine

but do you know the statement of intent of the chiropractic process?

It is the correction of “vertebral subluxation processes” but, in contrast to real subluxations which are painful, a

... “chiropractic subluxation” is an asymptomatic misalignment or a “vertebral subluxation complex” thought to be a cause of disease. The mechanism posited is usually the blocking of nerve impulses from spinal roots, or some such nonsense. Such a subluxation has never been proven to exist.

Lest you think that this unproved hypothesis has died away, in July 1996, the Association of Chiropractic Colleges issued a consensus statement that:

Chiropractic is concerned with the preservation and restoration of health, and focuses particular attention on the subluxation. A subluxation is a complex of functional and/or pathological articular changes that compromise neural integrity and may influence organ system function and general health

.This hypothesis has never been tested, and ignores significant anatomical reality, such as the fact that much of the nervous system does not pass through “subluxations” in any way. This especially applies to the autonomic nervous system that “influences organ system function”

According to the American Chiropractic Association:

The ACA Master Plan, ratified by the House of Delegates in June 1964 (Amended June 1979, June 1989, July 1994 and September 2000), and will govern future policies of ACA as quoted:
“With regard to the core chiropractic principle, which holds that the relationship between structure and function in the human body is a significant health factor and that such relationships between the spinal column and the nervous system are highly significant because the normal transmission and expression of nerve energy are essential to the restoration and maintenance of health.

That’s basically a re-statement of subluxation theory without the “s” word. It’s also patent bullshit

Source: White Coat Underground

There's one other matter, chiropracty offers small possible benefits in the treatment of back pain but, according to Rational Wiki it's more expensive.

You might also want to check Skeptic's Dictionary on the subject

[pnwmom]

90. Lots of people seem to argue that. The manipulations were developed

in the days before modern science. But the fact is, for many people, for whatever reason, they are effective in relieving pain.

[intaglio]

94. Note that I did NOT deny that chiropracty has limited use

But said that the use is limited to back pain, to which I would add that before using a chiropractor a diagnosis should be made by a clinically trained medical professional because cracked vertebrae, slipped disc or loss of bone density can all be aggravated by chiropractic treatment.

I did not mention the origins or date of foundation of chiropracty, only the hypothesis under which it offers treatments to conditions other than back pain. That hypothesis is that the chiropractic definition of vertebral subluxation and other misalignments of the spine are the cause of many maladies and can offer relief in those and relief in many more.

[MattBaggins]

47. Bullshit

The NCCAM is a fucking joke started by Hatch and Harkin to rubber stamp bullshit studies when legit organizations refused.

[pnwmom]

91. "Bullshit studies" by doctors at top research institutions.

[COLGATE4]

52. Osteopathic physicians, at least in states I am

familiar with have the same training as MD's. They are not chiropractors nor is their training similar to that of chiropractors.In Michigan, MD's and DO's practice medicine indiscriminately for the public and in hospitals.

[tammywammy]

66. That's true.

A good friend of mine is a DO. She had four years of medical school, passed board, did a three year residency and practices in a hospital. My general practitioner is a MD, but there are other doctors in the practice that are DOs.

[pnwmom]

92. The spinal manipulations were "borrowed" by chiropractors from practices

osteopaths developed, according to the osteopath my son saw.

You are right that osteopaths go through standard medical training in addition to their training in osteopathic medicine.

[Scout]

112. bullshit

you don't get relief of pain, with changes visible on x-rays, from a placebo.

[enki23]

114. Changes visible on x-rays? Seriously?

So, they took somebody's back x-ray, cracked his back knuckles, then took another x-ray, and they didn't look exactly the same? Well, shit. Chiropractic for the win, I guess? You are aware that's a pretty low bar, though, right? I mean, really, really, really stupid low.

[Scout]

119. snort--not "somebody's" back x-ray ... my back and neck.

for a simpleton, sure, you think you've "explained" it.

Yes, changes visible on x-ray. Having back pain in several areas, take x-rays and then see that the spine is mis-aligned. Chiropractor does adjustments over several weeks, pain is gone! Do follow-up x-rays after 6 weeks, guess what? vertebrae no longer misaligned in the spots where the pain was, and where the x-rays showed misalignment.

Fancy that. Pain relief, vertebrae in alignment and remain so. REally, really stupid low.

[phantom power]

7. +1e100

[tritsofme]

10. You are obviously a tool for Big Pharma. Let us have our magic water!

[Nine]

14. Good information.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid the very specific definition of homeopathy is once again being diluted (get it?) on this thread by discussions of various types of alternative medicine that may or may not be snake oil but are definitely not homeopathy.

[knitter4democracy]

16. I'm all for the placebo effect.

Their pills are sugar pills. Just read the ingredients. So, that makes them rather good placebo pills. If someone takes a homeopathic pill and feels better, than that's a good outcome. There ya go.

[CSStrowbridge]

18. It is risk. vs. reward.

It is risk. vs. reward. Some people might feel better because of the placebo effect, but more people are not getting the treatment they need and will get sicker as a result.

[knitter4democracy]

24. They most likely wouldn't anyway.

People don't go to the natural health foods store if they want medicine from their doctor. They go that route either because allopathic medicine hasn't worked for them or because they can afford a $5 bottle of sugar pills but not a $30 co-pay and who-knows-how-much prescription that may or may not work.

[MattBaggins]

50. There is no such thing as allopathic

Anyone that uses that word should be dismissed out of hand.

[knitter4democracy]

71. Funny, my ex-husband, an MD, always did.

He picked it up from his med school profs.

[skepticscott]

19. It's not a good outcome

If they just "feel" better, but have not gotten any real organic benefit beyond that. It's not a good outcome if they or someone else forgoes actual medical treatment because of a meaningless placebo blip in their condition in one instance. Or if they spent actual money that could have gone for something else on a sugar pill.

[knitter4democracy]

26. Keep in mind who's doing it.

Most of the people who use homeopathy are people whom allopathic medicine has failed. They usually combine that with other treatments that do work, and for many, yes, it's about feeling better.

Add in how many cannot afford allopathic medicine (from the co-pay to the prescription), and it's not a zero-sum game here. It's not all allopathic medicine or nothing. It's some of this, a bit of that, and whatever works is good.

I have a condition that causes fairly intense pain a few days a month. I've had worse, so I mostly do what I can to ignore it, but honestly, it's not like my doctor doesn't know. She does, and we've talked treatments, all of which sound pretty bad in terms of side effects and such. So, I live in pain. If someone told me some sugar pill would make me feel better and not make my symptoms worse, I'd be tempted, too.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

35. Since the body heals itself all the time, placebo effects just invoke that power.

Obviously the body can't do a heart transplant on its own, but the placebo effect is very effective.

When doctors did a placebo study of arthroscopic knee surgery, including fake incisions and clinic banter with the nurses, etc., the placebo recipients did better than the people who actually got the surgery.

The fact remains, homeopathy is harmful junk because it keeps some people away from proper treatment.

[Boreal]

38. See, that's funny

Because you made a case for the placebo effect being more powerful than SURGERY. Then you go to say homeopathy is harmful (is absolutely is not) and talk about "proper treatment" which can't even compete with the placebo effect!

Conversely, MANY people are harmed by big pharma and allopathic medicine, including my own brothers - one who had a heart attack caused by Vioxx and the other from botched gallbladder surgery which killed him.

By your own reasoning, we would all be better of having pretend treatments and benefiting from the placebo effect.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

81. Not funny, sorry about your brothers, and I advise you study more logic. nt

[MattBaggins]

49. Those of us in real medical professions

have this little thing called professional ethics.

Lying to your patient is considered a no no.

Lying to them and charging for nothing is even worse.

[knitter4democracy]

72. Which is why you can't give placebos.

Doesn't mean that people don't get the idea from somewhere else, though.

[KittyWampus]

103. pretending that taking medicine as prescribed is not a leading cause of death in America

is lying.

So admit it. JAMA itself admits it.

Taking medications AS PRESCRIBED is a leading cause of death.

[MattBaggins]

108. That in no way shape or form justfies

swindling people with homeopathy.

I have no idea what you meant with your statement nor where you are going with it.

[geretogo]

20. I am an Herbologist . I've taken herbs for years . They work . What category is Herbology under ?

[cthulu2016]

22. The OP is not about categories

The OP is about homeopathy.

If you do not treat people with water or other media that you claim magically remember molecules that are no longer in the medium then you are not a homeopath, so I guess you'd be in the category "not homeopathy."

[geretogo]

32. I have some back pain tablets that work that say homeopathy on the bottle . As long as I have read

any thing about Homeopathy , I have never come across any thing about water remembering molecules .
That's pretty bizarre .

[MattBaggins]

51. Check the actual ingredient list and pay attention to the concentrations they claim

You will find they have been diluted 12X and greater. It is not uncommon to see 30X and greater dilutions for homeopathic preparations at which point, the greatest probability is that there is not a single molecule of the supposed healing substance in the sample.

[geretogo]

73. All are 6x , one is 12x in a 300mg tab . Asprin and Tylinol are more potent but they are also bad

for your liver . These are not .

[elias7]

104. Aspirin and Tylenol are not bad for your liver

They are metabolized primarily by the liver, and can overload the liver's ability to do so if one overdoses ( the toxic overdose in Tylenol is 140 mg/kg, which is a 150 pound person taking 20 extra strength tabs (500 mg)). Below that these anti-inflammatories have demonstrable effects that can be proven. Aspirin as you may know has potent anti platelet qualities and is a mainstay in treatment for coronary disease.

Homeopathy fails any formal studies. Pure placebo, therefore a rip off, therefore worse than big pharma.

[Boreal]

37. "I am an Herbologist"

Good for you

I'm sure you are keenly aware of the attacks by the mainstream med-pharma complex on herbs, as well. As a life long vegetarian and someone inclined toward alt and holistic healing, I've witnessed EVERY form of non med-pharma complex treatments attacked, and that includes eating natural foods! I even remember, back in the 70s, when the position of the med-pharma complex was that it didn't matter what you ate. Their contention was that diet had nothing to do with the state of ones health. They mercilessly attacked and ridiculed (and ridicule is ALWAYS a red flag) anyone who advocated natural and non processed foods. They eventually caught up with the holistic community and backed off on that, but not much.

The important thing for everyone to remember is that you own your life and your body and never let anyone usurp that. That means you being free to pursue what you think is best for you. If you want to pump your body full of big pharma chemicals, go for it. It's your choice. If not, that's also your choice. If I break my leg, I'm going to an orthopedic doc. If I have an acute infection or a chronic ailment, I'm using homeopathy, herbs, acupuncture - my choice.

[geretogo]

39. Right on !

[MattBaggins]

53. Here in lies the conundrum

YOU can use whatever you want. When you attempt to lie and market to other people you should have to prove your claims. If you can not, you should be prevented from bullshitting other people and stealing their money.

[maddezmom]

58. Thank you. Could give 2 craps what others do to their bodies but people making false claims

And scamming out of money from others with cures of woo bugs the crap out of me.

[Boreal]

70. Spare me

Shall we list all of the pharma drugs that have been withdrawn from the market because they've killed and disabled people - AFTER they were declared safe by the high priests of the VERY profitable industry? Or how about implanted medical devices that have harmed and killed - AFTER they were declared safe? Oh, wait, I couldn't begin to list them because if would require hundreds of pages to do it. Don't talk to me about bullshitting. The med-pharma complex has that covered in spades.

[geretogo]

76. High Five .

[pangaia]

86. +100000

[Silent3]

101. "Your choice" is indeed your choice, but that has nothing to do with what works or not.

The most important issues when it comes to medicine are safety and effectiveness, not your need to boldly, proudly declare to the world what a self-determining individual your are.

[skepticscott]

21. "Alternative medicine" is just a term to scam and bamboozle

the government, the press, the medical education community and the public into taking unproven treatments seriously and throwing gobs of money at them. Throw in a few BS words like "integrative", "collaborative" or "holistic" to make it all sound reasonable, and you've got a full-fledged snake-oil industry.

There are two kinds of medical treatments-those that have been tested in properly conducted and controlled trials, and those that haven't. There is no "alternative" that provides any guarantee of effectiveness.

[knitter4democracy]

27. You might want to talk to the NEJM about that.

Med schools have integrated studied alternative practices, the New England Journal of Medicine regularly publishes studies of various alternative treatments, and Germany even has their own version of the FDA that just looks into herbs, acupuncture, and alternative medicines that has higher standards than our FDA does for allopathic medicine.

[840high]

93. Yes. Thank you.

[geretogo]

41. Except herbs . Have been taking for years . My check ups are 10's .

[Boreal]

29. I have been successfully

treated with homeopathy and it's a wonderful system of medicine. It's also very inexpensive and not controlled by big pharma. My own homeopath is also an MD.

Who the hell are you to say, "Homeopathy is a very specific thing that almost nobody would want to defend"? It doesn't need defending. What is this bizarre agenda going on here with thread after thread after thread attacking this system of treatment? It's EXTREMELY suspect. It's a red flag that should discredit the obsessive postings, for discerning readers. It borders on SPAM.

I highly recommend that people who are inclined to take their health into their own hands become educated about homeopathy and all alternatives to allopathic medicine. If it looks interesting to you, do your research, find a good doc and try it. Make up your own mind and beware of these shills.


Homeopathy: Beyond Flat Earth Medicine

http://www.drdooley.net/Book.pdf

[cthulu2016]

33. The bizarre agenda of basic chemistry and physics? Okay.

Who am I to say actually fake medicine is fake?

Who indeed.

I am in the pocket of Big Chemistry.

[intaglio]

36. This is called anecdotal evidence

Where is the evidence you would not have got better without homeopathy?

Where is there any evidence that homeopathy has any effect other than as a placebo?

Where is there any evidence that water has a memory?

Where is there any evidence that the magical knocking of a flask against a horsehair filled leather pad (succussion) has any effect?

Where are the peer reviewed, double blind studies, that show any benefit from homeopathy?

[geretogo]

46. There are scams . You must research any product before buying . Herbs have been helping people since

ancient times . Most of the drugs used today are a derivative of a natural plant or herb . Herbs work over along period of time .
That's one reason people say they don't work . I see them as an insurance policy .

[intaglio]

74. We're talking homeopathy not plant medicines

Homeopathy involves diluting an active ingredient 1 part of an active ingredient (normally something that causes similar symptoms to the illness you are trying to cure) diluting it with 100 parts of your dilutant, then you succuss the flask 30 times; then you take 1 part of the solution and dilute it again with 100 parts of the dilutant, succuss again etc. This process is repeated a total of 30 times (30C or 60X dilutions.

A 30C is the equivalent of 1 ml of the active compound in a sphere of water 131 light years in diameter. The chances of finding even 1 molecule of active ingredient in a 30 ml dose is of the order of 1 in 10^40.

Herbal medicine is another matter. If you are using herbs how do you know what dose of active ingredients you are getting? Remember that production of active ingredients in a plant will vary wildly depending on environmental factors like temperature, soil, daylight. How do you know that you are not taking an overdose of toxins with your remedy?

[geretogo]

75. They are all with in the dose guide lines used by other people over many years . I get my blood

tested every year . If there were any toxins they would find it . I am 66 and have used herbs for 20 .
I feel better now than at 30 .

[intaglio]

82. So you are using pharmacologically prepared herbal medicies

There's also a dirty secret about mass produced herbal remedies and that is that the mixes are tested for the active chemicals and then are either doped with "artificial" active ingredient or cut with inert filler to make the depending on whether the levels are too low or too high; it's the only way that they can control dosage. You will also find that mass produced herbal remedies will have had and toxins in the plant material neutralised prior to manufacture - doesn't sound quite as natural now.

Oh, blood testing doesn't look for toxins unless they are asked to and even then they need to know the possible toxins involved. Blood testing is an assay of known indicators (vitamins, iron, cholesterol, often thyroid and insulin) as well as blood counts.

[geretogo]

83. I grow alot of my own herbs . I either take them in tea form or dry them and put in capsules .

All herb manufacturers are not the same . You have to go with one you trust and rely on testing done and by whom .

[pangaia]

88. +1

Patience..

[intaglio]

95. If you are using your own herbs then you have no way of controling the dosage of active ingredient

Manufacturers of herbal remedies in capsule, tablet or liquid form are all the same - at least in Europe - where the formulation of the remedy has to be kept constant and they have to be termed supplements. I forget that the horribly unregulated market of the USA there are no such restrictions.

[Boreal]

61. Of course you can find

that for yourself (the miracle of the interwebs) but that doesn't suit your agenda


Couple second search -

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=9247843

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=19687192

Imagine what an hour of research could turn up.


That said, I don't really care. Homeopathy has worked for me and that's all the evidence I need.

[geretogo]

77. I second that .

[intaglio]

78. You haven't actually bothered looking at the abstracts, have you?

The first is a paper published in the impressive sounding International Journal of Clinical Pharmacological Therapy which appears to have no impact rating nor any other papers associated with it. This "scholarly" journal does not even seem to have a website or any other references except this paper. The lead author Dr K H Friese appears to be a homeopath currently without an academic attachment. The hospital he is associated with is not a research institution. The paper itself concerns Otitis Media a notoriously general diagnosis because it describes a symptom not a cause. There is no indication in the abstract as to these causes whether viral, bacterial, physical damage related or even (very common in children) "growing pains". The research is useless.

The second paper is from a journal called Evidence Based Complementary Alternative Medicine. It is low impact (1.7 ish) has a 40% acceptance rate and time to publication of 2 months, all of which raises doubt about it's peer review process. The paper was an 8 week trial of treatments for depressive illness contrasting a homeopathic remedy against fluoxetine. The length of the trial alone shows that it is a joke. Fluoxetine takes a minimum of 12 weeks to come to full effectiveness. Additionally short and small trial such as this are, in general, meaningless with the treatment of depression as there are so many influences in this mood disorder that a large number of patients need to be assessed over years.

Your mark, B minus do better and check the references.

[geretogo]

42. The secret is : Do your own Research .

[Boreal]

69. That's exactly right nt

[Silent3]

102. Do your own research, gravitating toward what you already want to hear...

...cherry-picking the anecdotes that make what you want to believe is good sound good, that make what you want to believe is bad sound bad, and if something isn't merely anecdotal, but done in the form of an actual study, if the result isn't something you'd want to agree with, feel very certain that it's bullshit Big Pharma propaganda.

[maddezmom]

44. What was treated?

[Boreal]

68. Thanks for asking

I had a severe bone infection as a result of an impacted wisdom tooth. I was out of town and unable to see a dentist or oral surgeon so I called someone in the city I was visiting and asked if they knew someone I could see. I was in extreme pain with the entire side of my face and neck badly swollen and hard, all the way to my collar bone. The lady I called rightly said that no oral surgeon would pull my tooth (buried below the gum) with such an infection and without a full course of antibiotics being administered first. She suggested an MD she knew who is also a homeopath. He gave me two homeopathic remedies, as opposed to antibiotics (can't recall what they were); one for pain and one for the infection. Within about four hours of taking them, the swollen area began to hurt more, then felt really strange, like kind of vibrating (best way I can describe it). I felt a lot of pressure near my impacted tooth. Excuse me because this is graphic/gross, but I felt the need to spit and a shitload of pus and blood just gushed from deep within my jaw. It must have been at least half a cup worth. Just like that, I was completely fine! It was nothing short of astounding. When I returned home and saw and oral surgeon, it was discovered that I had a cyst, below the tooth, that had eaten nearly all of my jaw. He said the infection could have killed me and was amazed by the homeopathic treatment working so fast. It was about two months before I had surgery and in that period the infection never returned.

The other treatment was for depression, fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue - something I'm sure the Amazing Randi shills would say do not exist. Years of Prozac and other pharma had given some relief but not a lot. Once again, the homeopathy worked.

With acupuncture, I had it done for debilitating back pain and muscle spasms. It was a really interesting experience and gave me great relief.

Just my personal experiences and these are things, as with pharma and allopathic medicine, that people have to discover for themselves.

[hobie]

97. Thanks for Asking!!

In July of 2013 my health was about 20%, I was dying of congestive heart failure, scar tissue damage from heart attacks, Type II diabetes, high BP, atherosclerosis, COPD, and weighed 300 lbs. and having angina. I could barely creep a block without being short winded, slept on 2 pillows with a fan blowing in my face. The best the VA could do with conventional meds wasn't working. Today, thanks to home remedies and being my own doctor, using every trick in my kitchen cabinets (herbs,spices,foods), 90v-10p diet & OTC supplements I am about 95% of full health at 68 years old. My CGF is almost entirely gone, high BP gone, angina gone 2 weeks, Diabetes gone in 45 days, a clear atrial system, no COPD, lost 100 pounds & still working on it. My cardiologist stated, "I don't know what you are doing, but keep doing it."

At no time did I stop taking the VA meds, but they have all been reduced or eliminated entirely. I can speed walk two miles a day, and bought myself a basket ball and have been shooting hoops over at the court, trimming my trees, well just going about being 30 years old again. I really feel that good. Lol, I have even been called a liar. I am also working on my skin and hair to reverse aging. No luck with hair, but it is going from silver back to black. The VA had wanted to give me a heart transplant years back & I turned it down, I think I made a wise decision, and I am taking supplements that will remove the scar tissue ~ well cleaned out my atrial system of plaque. I'm convinced you are your own best doctor, and maybe your friends as well.

[NuclearDem]

54. 1) Anecdotal evidence is utterly worthless in a scientific context

Anecdotes say homeopathy works, peer-reviewed studies say it's at best a placebo effect.

2) The shill gambit is indicative of having no actual data to back your claims. That, and seeing how most of your posts in the pseudoscience threads read like advertisements for homeopathy, makes me wonder who's actually shilling for what.

3) Claiming conspiracy is a massive pseudoscience red flag. Doesn't do much to lend credibility to your claims. Proponents of creationism, alternative medicine, reincarnation, ESP, chemtrails, Bigfoot, crop circles, aliens, flat earth, ad infinitum claim conspiracy when they have no evidence to back their claims.

4) There is no "alternative medicine." There's medicine, and there's stuff that doesn't work.

[Boreal]

62. You don't get to dissemble

with impunity

"Most of my posts"? I've never posted about anything like this until these threads popped up in the last day or two. I also have nothing to prove. I have merely related that homeopathy and acupuncture have worked for me (and they worked fast and extremely well). I encourage everyone to find out for themselves.

Your attempt at appeal to ridicule (bigfoot, etc) and conflating alternative medicine to your strawmen has zero effect on me and only makes you look like an idiot. You may have also insulted any Hindu members with your remark about reincarnation. Of course, you'd probably like that. So it goes with the Amazing Randi cult.

[NuclearDem]

64. "You may have also insulted any Hindu members with your remark about reincarnation."

I don't buy into any religious superstition. Creationism makes claims that can't be tested with the scientific method, and so does reincarnation. They're both pseudosciences.

Of course, you'd probably like that.

Nice attempt to imply I'm racist. 6/10.

Of course, Hinduism wasn't even on my radar when bringing up reincarnation. Ian Stevenson and his studies were.

Your attempt at appeal to ridicule (bigfoot, etc) and conflating alternative medicine to your strawmen

No attempt to ridicule. Only pointing out that claiming conspiracy is a tactic used by other pseudosciences as well.

[geretogo]

79. They work for me to . Like the saying goes ," don't knock it till you've tried it " .

[pangaia]

89. I doubt any Hindi would take the time to be offended.

Nor would any Tibetan Tulkus I know.

[MattBaggins]

55. Homeopathy violates basic LAWS of physics and chemistry

and there is no such thing as allopathic medicine.

People who use that term should be dismissed out of hand.

[geretogo]

80. You're dissecting a human hair . Just go with what works for you .

[kristopher]

48. I suspect homeopathy is a faulty mental model spun-off from valid concepts

I'm thinking of allergies:
Exposure to peanuts builds immunity in allergic children
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/271918.php

There are also lots of stories about people building a tolerance for snake or bee venom. I have no idea whether they are true or not, but a foundation for the belief might be seen in the range of potential responses to common poison ivy. For example, my wife is acutely sensitive to it and I'm not inclined to react even to direct and prolonged contact.

I'd think the modern version of homeopathy faced a real challenge when it was confronted with germ theory. It also seems likely the challenge was offset by an implicit (and erroneous) confirmation of the homeopathic concept provided by the use of vaccines. Historically of course, the instances of immunity from disease conferred by having and surviving the disease almost certainly contributed to formation of the belief system.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunity_(medical)

Given the visibility and widespread existence of these inputs into the mental models of the general public, it is no wonder that the fundamental concept of homeopathic medicine is widely accepted as possible. It is quackery, but since we don't usually invest a great deal of effort in understanding the reasons we believe the things we do, it is unlikely to disappear anytime soon no matter how often it is revealed as hogwash.

Thanks for a good thread.

[mackerel]

96. Nothing at all crazy about homeopahty. I will defend always.

Arnica, really? You call arnica crazy? Ok I guess if you're into unnecessary pain.

It's called like cures like.

[TransitJohn]

98. Which is some seriously crazy shit

Confronted with the entire weight of human scientific knowledge, you will defend.

[eShirl]

99. I gave that arnica stuff a try years ago and it didn't do a damn thing.

Sure enough, closer inspection of the label revealed it to be a homeopathic preparation. If I hadn't been in such a rush I would have seen that and saved my money in the first place.

[Orrex]

100. If you'd taken half as much, it would have worked twice as well

SCIENCE!

[Humanist_Activist]

105. Homeopathy violates the basic rules of the universe, water doesn't have memory...

its nutty stuff, on the same level as creationism or the flat earth, just applied to physics and chemistry.

[MattBaggins]

109. Homeopathy is nothing but crazy

and the concept that like cures like is hogwash.

The therapeutic effects of any substance and side effects are independent of one another. There may often be very strong correlations but it is not necessarily so.

[Orsino]

121. Diluting it to zero concentration to treat illness? Crazy. n/t

[JCMach1]

107. it's all pseudoscience to me...

[mackerel]

110. Ok spout your AMA lines that's cool.

Homeopathy works for me and my family and it's way cheaper. I tell you what I won't do, I won't take meds that a doctor prescribes until I do full research on it. Western meds killed my Father and at this time in my life I have zero desire to abandoned my children because someone with an M.D. claims that the meds they prescribe are some sort of cure or correction for a supposed diagnosis.

What I do find interesting is one of my clients recently called and told me her M.D. specialist prescribed her Belladonna for a fever of "unknown origin" but it is going to cost her $210.00. I told her I'm no doctor but they sell Belladonna at Whole Foods for $8.00 a vial in the homeopathic section.

If you don't believe homeopathy works then don't use homeopathic remedies. The AMA and pharma's would prefer you didn't anyway.

(I wonder what the argument will be for taking antibiotics when so many now don't work because so many people have become antibiotic resistant.)

Btw water is amazing and so strong and with out it you die.

[COLGATE4]

111. I hope that your lady client doesn't develop

complications from taking your advice to use homeopathic belladona instead of the Rx given her by her M.D. and decide to sue you for practicing medicine without a license (among other things).

[mackerel]

117. Disclaimer was in I'm not a doctor.

And he didn't perscribe an Rx to her.

[COLGATE4]

118. The disclaimer doesn't mean anything. You don't

have to claim to be a doctor to be found having practiced medicine without a license. As to your other statement,

"one of my clients recently called and told me her M.D. specialist prescribed her Belladonna for a fever of "unknown origin" but it is going to cost her $210.00.

[OnionPatch]

116. Homeopathy can be a useful tool

For figuring out which of your holistic doctors are whack-a-doos.

I'm all for holistic medicine but when a holistic doctor prescribes homeopathy, they get crossed off my list immediately.

[cthulu2016]

120. ^^^ A sensible view

It is fine to have an open mind... but not so open your brain falls out