Kirsten Dunst Says For a Relationship to Work, 'You Need... A Woman to Be a Woman'

[alp227]

"Liberal" Hollywood my rear end:

Kirsten Dunst has traditional views on gender -- saying that gender roles have become too blurred for her taste.

"I feel like the feminine has been a little undervalued. We all have to get our own jobs and make our own money, but staying at home, nurturing, being the mother, cooking – it's a valuable thing my mum created," she told Harper's Bazaar UK. "Sometimes, you need your knight in shining armor. I'm sorry. You need a man to be a man and a woman to be a woman. That's why relationships work."

Pffft.

Imagine if Dunst said:

"I feel like the roles of black people have been undervalued...tending the fields, being the butler - these are valuable things African-Americans have done for us. Sometimes, separate but equal is a good thing. You need a white person to be white and a black person to be black. That's how society works."

What's even more frustrating is that Dunst, by using her "FREESPEECHFREESPEECHFREESPEECH", is validating the bass-ackwards gender essentialist beliefs of many ignorant people in our idiocracy of a nation. On Facebook Trending, right wing media has been championing Dunst as "telling the truth".

Pfft. Dunst and her minions hold a very romanticized notion of gender roles. This whole "all-American family" gender essentialist image promoted by Leave It to Beaver and other popular media in the "Golden Age of TV" is little more than a media-manufactured myth. If I had the money to do so, I'd send a copy of Stephanie Coontz's The Way We Never Were to Dunst's agent.

[seabeyond]

1. I do not even know what this means. To be a woman I must be incapable? I need rescuing?

I have never needed rescuing in my life and if I am not capable of doing something I am capable of solving that problem and finding some who can. Does that make me... Not a woman?

I really do not get this. Does a man have to rescue me to feel like a man? Even when I do not need rescuing cause I am capable???? Meh

[Agschmid]

15. Yes.

And just in case...

[seabeyond]

19. Lol. And how do I reply to that unqualified and absolute yes...

That here I am not a woman yet birthed two babies. Lol

Man, I wish women would not tell us we need to pretend stupid for mans ego.

[Agschmid]

20. It would be nice!

I'd tell you but you already know I feel that way, and I'm a gay man so it's not really my place.

[roguevalley]

100. funny that a girl with so few happy relationships should give out advice. My

parents were equals in EVERY way and were married 55 years. I will take my advice from their example.

[seabeyond]

111. it is. i really was clueless who she is. didnt realy care. and have read down below a little

on here.

now i have to defend her. was thinking last night, one of the posts i went into and read had TEN bfs. TEN. oh my god. so many. you woman. what does that make you. does not follow the recipe of who we women are and also, whatever site documenting the number of relationships she has is letting her know. i was thinking last night, i have seen a couple of times, a handful, of our actors having articles and discussions of the great number of relationships they have. do they do the same for the men actors? is there a raised eyebrow in the discussion if the men have what we consider TOO many? or if it is discussed, is it more a pat on the back and a wink wink.

so, on the one hand i call out her belief we should adopt caricatures of who we are defined by society and conditions. on the other hand i call out a magazine that appears to mock her cause of her number of relationships

[Kber]

53. I have, upon occasion, needed rescuing.

So has my husband. Mutual vulnerability and support has made our marriage stronger over the past 20 years.

However, if I consantly needed rescuing and support, without ever returning the favor, he'd have dumped my sorry ass years ago.

DH is a strong man, with some human weakness. I am a strong woman who isn't perfect.

Our relationship works because we accept and shore up each other's weaknesses and have each "rescued" the other. I wonder if Ms Durnst can even imagine that.

[seabeyond]

55. good for you all. and i hear and respect what you are saying. i have never needed rescuing.

that simple. pretty pragmatic. never been in a situation to need it. all for it if i did. i havent.

does that make me not a woman? must i manufacture needing a white knight because it is perceived we women cannot do on our own, we need that white knight here and there, as the woman said?

supportive? you betcha. but, i cannot recall ever rescuing hubby. there never was the need. i have rescued my two brothers and father on occasion. that is our family dynamics. no one has or has needed to rescue me. and i do not need it purely cause i am a woman.

[Kber]

81. Yes you are a woman.

All respect.

I think "rescuing" happens irrespective of gender.

Whether you are woman or man, I hope you have people who trust you, and people you trust, to call in time of need.

Seems like you do.

And that is love.

[seabeyond]

83. lol kber. and i can certainly go for all that. not the garbage in the Op. nt

[yeoman6987]

76. Her opinion

The only problem is she has not had any relationship that I know of that had any lasting time. Maybe she is confused.

[seabeyond]

77. why do people keep telling me it is her opinion as if that matters or i care. i do not know who the

woman is. i am seeing that she si an actress. ok, so. but, per my reply, her opinion matters not. she is telling me because i am a woman i need a white knight. wrong. i need ot be inept. wrong. i need ot be stupid. wrong. so a man can feel like a man. wrong.

that is all.

ya. her opinion. a stupid opinion. that i refuse to be so a man can feel good about himself. and i can feel lousy about myself cause i had to sell myself short.

and ya... to the rest of your post.

[Threedifferentones]

104. And the correlary point, from the man's point view:

He ought to be ashamed when he needs help, especially if it is from a woman.

Oh, what? Life seems overwhelming, and I need support not only to get every task done, but also just to feel sane at the end of the day? Does that make me...not a man?

I really don't get this. Does a woman need rescuing to feel like a woman? Even when I can't rescue her 'cause I am not fucking omnipotent? Meh.

To me it is no wonder so many people are so angry, there is a lot of pressure to shape our personalities like Dunst describes: He is strong and she is weak, she is compassionate while he is analytical, he is the public bread winner and she the private nurturer, and on and on....

And that pressure comes not from one sex or the other, but from people who still believe in antiquated, binary gender stereotypes and roles.

Unfortunately, most people internalize such sexist drivel as kids, so that even if we develop the capacity as adults to see that it is BS, frequently at our core we still feel bound to fit in.

[seabeyond]

109. i so agree. stuff those emotions boys... cause you are not allowed to feel. have those heart

attacks early, be disconnect, be half of who you are so you can fit with societies definition of what it is to be a man.

there is nothing more wonderful... nothing, for the man, that family and especially the child, to watch a nurturing father with his baby.

this womans definition of man/woman is all about making man/woman less. odd that.

[Dawson Leery]

2. Hillary Clinton, Michelle Obama, and Katie O'Malley would disagree.

As long as woman can chose her role, she is free. It is her choice to stay at home and/or work.

Dunst is showing herself to be a dunce (and hypocrite) by stating that a woman should be at home, all the while she had a career.

Krissy should be proud. She has the Buchannanites at Townhall on her side.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/she-the-people/wp/2014/04/10/kirsten-dunsts-latest-role-unlikely-warrior-in-continuing-gender-debate/

edit: Has Kristen ever heard of Golda Mier?

[Enrique]

3. being an actress isn't a very traditional role

neither is expressing her opinions in interviews. She better get back in the kitchen and let men like me do all the thinking.

[rhett o rick]

66. Excellent point. nm

[Liberal_in_LA]

89. yep n/t

[BainsBane]

4. Plenty of relationships work with no woman at all

and instead two men. Clearly Dunst's argument is BS.

[steve2470]

5. and she's an actress....

I'll give her views the credibility they deserve. She probably has more money to play with than most women. She really is a throwback.

[rocktivity]

6. I feel like Hollywood has been greatly overvalued

We all have to get our own jobs and make our own money, but should spend it on staying at home, nurturing, being the parent -- not on the outrageous salaries actors are paid. As role models, actors are the wrong kind of knights in shining armor. I'm sorry, but actors should be paid only a living wage so that movies don't cost so much. That's how a proper economy works.


rocktivity

[Nye Bevan]

7. I'm a little confused. If she believes that the woman should stay home, cooking and cleaning,

how come I have heard of her?

[alp227]

8. because gender roles are for the little people not the 1%

I wonder if Dunst buys into the Heritage Foundation/AEI type of talking point about the Traditional Family(TM) being the ticket out of poverty?

[Dawson Leery]

10. I wonder too. Pity, she seemed so enlightened, unlike that Underwood dingbat.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/04/carrie-underwood-husband_n_3017738.html

[LTR]

40. Too much knee-jerking here

And actually, she is quite liberal:

Dunst supported Democratic candidate John
Kerry for the 2004 U.S. presidential election .
Four years later, she supported
Democrat Barack Obama in the 2008
presidential election . Dunst
revealed that she supported Obama "from
the beginning" of the presidential campaign.
In support of this, she directed and
narrated a documentary entitled Why
Tuesday , explaining the United States
tradition of voting on Tuesdays.
Dunst explained that Tuesday is "not a
holiday, and [the United States is] one of the
lowest democratic countries in voter
turnout." She felt it important to
"influence people in a positive way" to vote
on November 4.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirsten_Dunst

And I thought it was the wingnuts who felt the most butthurt.

[alp227]

41. But she works for a very heteronormative industry, Hollywood.

If Hollywood were really as evil and liberal as the right wingers say it is, REAL progressive values like atheism and feminism would be championed in many mainstream TV shows and movies. Clearly not. Hollywood continues to be friendliest to a majority white, cissexual, privileged audience, social justice be damned. Which is why people LOOOOVE "politically incorrect humor"...Hollywood continues to lionize it.

[seabeyond]

45. ah... so cause she voted kerry i am suppose to embrace to pretend to be stupid, so a man feels like

a man, to be a woman?

not even.

[handmade34]

9. that's bunk...

people would do well to look at themselves as individuals and communicate... not have unreasonable gender expectations

[Zorra]

11. Try: Be whoever and whatever you are, and ignore authoritarian parrots who tell you

that you have to be something you're not.

[treestar]

12. She must be feeling like she doesn't want to take on something

Or there is something she does not want to stand up to her husband about.

It can be an excuse for weak women - they can fall back on how they are supposed to be weak.

[reformist2]

13. Believe it or not, there are more and more younger women who think this way.

[Dawson Leery]

16. Actually, no:

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/12/11/on-pay-gap-millennial-women-near-parity-for-now/sdt-gender-and-work-12-2013-0-01/

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2012/0524/As-Millennials-reject-gender-roles-but-embrace-marriage-they-re-changing-society

[reformist2]

18. Actually, yes. The new feminism is actually very upsetting to older feminists.

[seabeyond]

21. Again wrong. The newest feminist. Our teens, lower 20's even younger are vocal

Capable and smart, educated. Empowered. I love their very young voice and stand behind them with support as they speak out. I am hearing truly awesome girls so all over so many old fools.

You might check out the fourth wave that is coming back to chat with second

[xmas74]

90. I see it on our local university campus all the time.

Yes, there are still some young women on campus who are into the more "traditional" line of thinking but I've noticed plenty of others speaking out about their rights and their expectations. Quite a few still think of feminism as a dirty word but others on the campus are proudly proclaiming themselves to be feminists-and it's not just women. It's a small university campus in a conservative area but I've noticed quite a few young men proudly wearing "This is what a feminist" looks like t shirts. Ten years ago and this wouldn't have been found on this campus.

Oh, and my 13 year old knows what a feminist is and proudly proclaims herself to be one. The first time I heard her refer to herself as a feminist was a very happy day in my house.

[seabeyond]

91. ah. Mama, you be so proud..... lol. give your little feminist a hug from me. please.

Last edited Sun Apr 13, 2014, 02:46 AM - Edit history (1)

i know. it has been a blast to watch and listen. this is what those meanie old repugs is giving all of us. yea... them. yea us. i thought my oldest niece was hopeless and youngest niece apathetic. the last couple years, these young women have become bold, loud, proud and informed. i am very proud myself.

and women my age. much more aware. picking up on what i am talking about quickly. right there with me. not rolling their eyes.

this alst year especially, i am just getting a whole different feel of.... enough.

[xmas74]

98. I'm so proud.

Maybe she did get something from me. I'm a single mother who has raised her alone her entire life. It wasn't ideal by any means but it did teach her that she can't expect to have someone do it all for her-she has to be willing to do for herself. She's realized that she really can do what she wants if she works for it. She doesn't have to depend on someone to make her happy-she can make her own happiness and learn to share it with others.

And before anyone else says anything here (I know you won't but others might): I am NOT a man hater. I like men-very, very much. I like to be around them and I enjoy being in relationships with them, both as friends and as a romantic involvement. What I don't like is the thought of depending on someone for everything-financially, emotionally, what have you. I don't want someone to come along and rescue me. I want to be an equal partner.

(Oh, and since we know how commentators are on the internet: I am a very feminine-looking woman with these views. I'm petite, I love to do my hair and wear make-up, I'm a fan of hair removal and my personal style is what some would refer to as "twee" before it became a style-lots of fun little dresses and retro/vintage looking throwbacks. I like heels, hose and purses. In other words, feminists come in all different kind of styles and I think that some of our young women are finally learning that lesson.)

[seabeyond]

114. i do not know why i thought, but... i am thrilled you corrected me.

ya. i use to clarify, i love men. i loves my men. i love sex. AND i am attractive.

lol lol. then with the consistent and constant realization that i was having to defend self, who i am, prior to using my voice, i said.... fug that.

doesnt matter if i am ugly ass and hate men, does not silence my voice. negate what i have to say.

it is interesting. i did the tradition with my kids. that is what we lived. it was awesome in development for them. and i know so many women that did it single handedly. a few men. adn the awesome of who these children are. abilities that my kids are behind on or do not have. (which is fine. a little of this, a little of that, makes a whole). but... it is all in being the parent on the balance and grounding of a children. building the foundation.

good for you.

[xmas74]

128. Every time I say I'm a feminist I feel as though I have to defend myself.

It's pretty common to hear someone throw out a "feminazi" here and there where I live. When I get tired of hearing it I inform them that I am a proud feminist. They look at me, barely 5'2 in stocking feet, with my hair done, my makeup, my dresses and frills, and they ask me "Why?". Supposedly, feminism is only for women who are unfortunate looking, hate men, have no home ec skills,prefer to look "like women" (not sure what a woman is supposed to look like, but ok), and have issues with hair removal. I've been told, on more than a few occasions, that there's no reason for a woman like me to be a feminist, since I'm "feminine" enough to marry.

The mind boggles sometimes. Turns out equality isn't want they want to hear.

[seabeyond]

132. agree. i can remember when i started using both liberal and feminist.

i had people literally say

i didnt call you that

i would bust out laughing. no, you did not call me that. i did. lol

[xmas74]

148. I'm a liberal in a congressional district that elected

Vicki Hartzler twice. You can imagine the looks I receive.

[libodem]

136. That is what I thought

You stayed home and raised a family. You have been a devoted wife and mother. It comes through that your boys are well rounded and decent. You have had the privilege of a traditional marriage. Your husband has supported the family. You still don't need to work outside your home even though your kids are older. You are blessed.

I would have loved to stay home longer. I'm jealous.

[seabeyond]

138. youa re right on, in your post. everything. i hear ya.

and i will be the first to say, i am damn lucky. i do ot know why it worked that way. but my life has been incredibly easy. and i have to remember that, and understand that is my filter.

but, you are right.

incredibly lucky.

and i admire women that do it all.... and especially since they do it all not cause they want, but cause they have to.... i admire them hugely. they are the awesome. many women i know. my niece being one.

i did have the easy.

[libodem]

140. It isn't just luck

You had to have made the correct choices. Maintaining a marriage and family takes a lot of effort. It is a challenge.

Housework, laundry, cooking, and driving kids around is a job. It is nice when the husband will help. I think it makes husbands more lovable when they care enough to help so there can be more free time for being together.

[seabeyond]

141. well libo, this is kinda fun. so thank you. i have thought about this, cause this

has literally been my whole life. and i, of course, have asked why.

ya. i make good choices. BUT... that being said. lol. i am also naturally a pragmatic/responsible person. i do not do drama.... (in real life anyway, lol), and i naturally look in front of me to see what obstacles may happen and do everything in my power ahead of time to never step on a land mine.

where my brother that has lived nothing but chaos says.... my life is boring.

i like boring. it looks really good on me, lol.

he on the other hand, naturally has to have his very high, highs that will give him his horrible lows.

so. good choices ya. but, cause of who i am, even those are easy.

but thank you. i am glad you replied and we chatted. you gave me a time of remembering how good life is.

[Dawson Leery]

22. Backward Catholics are behind this "movement" you speak of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_feminism#Proponents

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pia_de_Solenni

http://www.ignitumtoday.com/2013/07/22/what-is-a-new-feminist/

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/helen-alvare-birth-controls-worst-enemy-is-feminine-genius-champion

[alp227]

25. what issue do the "older feminists" have with 3rd wave? nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

130. to put it simply 3rd wave Refuse to Be That Woman. When, in reality they should be Proud to Be

That Woman ...

link for context:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024815997

[alp227]

137. "that woman" what? nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

143. giving you the benefit of doubt here - further explanation =

MRAs say: Don't be That Woman.

fuck 'em and their bullshit.

I am Proud To Be That Woman.

3rd Wave are Proud To Be MRAs Sex Kitties.

Are we understood now?

[seabeyond]

144. i really think you should give alp the benefit of doubt

lol

damn woman. you got educated and see, once seen cannot unsee.

i was gonna say harsh, but then i started seeing what you are seeing and.... well,

right on.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

145. People will just have to excuse me when I doubt the sincerity of another poster when it comes to

this issue. Too many games to be played around here and while I like to play games as well as the next person

I do not like to be played.

There is a difference.

There are some posters on DU3 that unless they post a sincere OP of apology I will never take them at their word on this issue.

Forgive me.

Overlook me.

Put me on Ignore.

And You know Who You Are.

and sea is Not One.

[seabeyond]

146. bah hahahahahah. i am woman, hear me roar. k, that is mine. rise. nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

147. ... lol ...

Rise UP !!

[Iggo]

110. I'll go with not.

[bettyellen]

120. I'll say nope as well. But perhaps that poster lives in a conservative area

Aka - hell hole- that is a good 20-30 years behind the times. Thankfully, I do not.

[Dawson Leery]

14. Leave it to Beaver/Father Knows Best were nothing more than government propaganda

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Production_Code

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_H._Hays
1950's Hollywood produced some of the worst products ever.

[Tikki]

17. Sorry lady…my relationship has 'worked' for 50 years and I call bs on your directives.

We have worked for equality never-ending…

ms. Dunst, if you want a little hobby…we believe you are better suited to doll collecting.

The Tikkis

[Skittles]

23. plenty of gals think that way, Kirsten

that's why there's a shortage of battered women's shelters

[JaneyVee]

24. She'll blame it on mag taking her out of context.

[leeroysphitz]

26. I think Kirsten Dunst is sexy. n/t

[seabeyond]

28. I guess she is perfectly playing her role to suit you. So you're da man. Totally awesome dude

[Puzzledtraveller]

94. ^^this^^

[vlakitti]

27. Stephanie Coontz's "The Way We Never Were"

is a terrific analysis and a great read.

Thank you for citing it.

[catrose]

68. Absolutely

great book

[Warpy]

29. Honey, the feminine is UNvalued.

Most of us have to be tough as nails to survive in the real world. We are women and we have no choice in the matter.

What you want is for us all to become fluttery little girls who want some great man on a white horse to save us from whatever and carry us off to be happy ever after. That only happens in books and only in the books those of us with any sense at all stopped reading when we got out of our teens.

You are free to simper and flutter, of course, but expect your paycheck to reflect it.

(Note to the dim: this is directed at Dumbest, er, Dunst, not to the OP)

[Aerows]

30. Cthulu is pleased with her progress

In reminding women of their inferior place.

[valerief]

31. Now we all know Dunst is NO BRAINIAC. nt

[PosterChild]

33. My bet is. . . .

.. . her agent scripted this to get her some press.

[Mojo Electro]

34. Wow.

There's a lot of "Be quiet, woman. know your place" coming from right here in this thread.

[alp227]

35. Huh? nt

[seabeyond]

37. no. there is not. what you see in this thread are people adamently disagreeing with her

archiac belief... vocally. you have a problem with free speech by all? or does it only apply to the person spouting out sexism?

[tazkcmo]

39. Are you reading

the same thread as me?

[bettyellen]

112. No there is not, LOL. Quite the opposite.

[bravenak]

36. If relationships 'work' because theres a man and a woman...

How come we have such a high divorce rate?
Btw, i am my own knight in shining armor. Stooopid!

[tazkcmo]

38. I don't want a woman to NEED me.

I want her to WANT me. She should be independent, strong and smart.

[alp227]

43. you listen to Cheap Trick?

[tazkcmo]

44. Gazillions of times. n/t

[niyad]

42. kirsten, until this moment, I thought you were at least a moderately talented actress,

had no knowledge of your personal views. now that I know them, I am so very unimpressed.

[lillypaddle]

46. Most of those here on DU

are too judgmental and reactionary for me to respond in any kind of honest way. So I won't. Everything here seems to be black or white, even though there are shades of gray. It's sad, really. The fundie liberals.

[seabeyond]

47. "The fundie liberals." ya. no judgment there. or is this only a one way street for you?

[bettyellen]

64. DUers are fundie liberals? Perhaps if you disprove of liberal values...

You're here by mistake? Get used to being outnumbered by liberals if you're planning on staying.

[lillypaddle]

67. No, I didn't say that all DUers are fundie liberals

I'm a liberal. My point is that for SOME here, issues are black and white. IMHO, true liberals can see shades of gray. Do you not agree with that?

[bettyellen]

70. There's absolutely no radically liberal posts in this thread-

So of course I wondered why you used such damning language to describe main stream liberal members here.

[lillypaddle]

74. Why do you think I am talking about "radically liberal" posts?

There are many here who are considered mainstream liberal members who cannot see any gray, only black and white. I am 66 years old. I have a history in feminism, I have a history in democratic politics. My first vote ever went for George McGovern, I was a delegate in Oklahoma for Jimmy Carter. I was a member of NOW in the founding chapter of NOW in Okla. I was an executive director of a non-profit women's health care organization, I have fought for the right to choose - and yet, I often feel like an outsider here.

Obviously, you don't get what I'm trying to say. That's okay.

If you smoke, well fuck you. If you are overweight, you are weak and fuck you. If you are underweight, fuck you. If you watch porn, fuck you. If you call Ann Coulter a "bitch" - well, fuck you! And, god forbid, if you support the President of the United States, you are a fucking cheerleading no-mind!

Shit. I give the hell up.

It gets tiresome. Fundie liberals? Yes, there are a few here. Quite a few.

And, after all these years, I don't mind fighting the "other side," but goddamn, I'm tired of fighting MY side!

[elias7]

101. I agree

Quite an attack and way too much reading into her words with mischaracterizations and slams. Very black and white. Lack of nuance on DU recently is disturbing and astounding! can't really have a conversation anymore. Everyone so quick to pounce and generalize and insult.

[Jim Warren]

155. Agree also

+1

[seabeyond]

157. i am having all kinds of excellent conversations in this thread.

jump in and enjoy a conversation instead of just saying we should not speak about this and insulting us. you might have fun too, in an actual conversation.

[blueamy66]

105. I agree too.

If every thought in your head isn't a black and white liberal one - get off this board!

[bettyellen]

108. If someone thinks using sexist slurs like b*tch is okay....

That's incredibly unfortunate, as it is degrading for anyone to do that. There is no gray area on that one.

Applauding the reinforcement of old gender roles where women are dependent- also not really a progressive opinion. The gray area there would be supporting the choices people make to take on any role- not the only the wife/ dependent one that left so many women impoverished and unfulfilled.

Not sure how this ties into people saying "fuck you"- I hadn't seen anything like this posted on this thread once. But if your expecting the general population to respond to Dunst's regressive advice to women to get on the back of the bus, you will be sorely disappointed in your experience here. I see loads of people doing shades of gray here. It just doesn't usually apply to sexist or racist slurs or RW memes. Hope that helps!

[seabeyond]

116. actually, i suggest the person who feels it is sexist to call a woman the b word, yet, also is able

to see the person holds democratic views and votes democratic, so, supports that person, is more open minded, flexible, seeing the gray than a person that is sexist and insists everyone accepts it cause they vote democratic.

i suggest the people she rails against are the open minded ones. to be accepted on du, even though she may have closed minded views.

meh...

my .02

[bettyellen]

119. I'm left befuddled as to what they would post here that would make them

Feel attacked? Seems like this poster is putting down DUers for arguing from a liberal point of view.
Although I agree with her on the smoking thing- seems the people who love to be jerks for sport just love those threads. Just as there are a few jerks who like to shit on women's issue threads with sexist comments. Seems like some like to dump here. And the original comment I replied to was just that.

[seabeyond]

121. i am familiar with what lilly is talking about. i disagree wth her. the point mostly is,....

when a position is presented and feminists disagree, some choose to see it as bullying or being extremist instead of differing opinion. meh.....

kinda like this thread. there have been twice, as a position of a woman standing up for another woman, i have sided with this actor. and once.... her comment about men being men, and women being women, that i disagree with the actor.

now. people in this thread are all over accusing us that we are not allowing her an opinion. or we are saying she is not allowed to voice her opinion. or we are bigots or fundie liberals. i personally see it as the actor put out her opinion and i disagreed with her opinion and stated why.

no more or less.

and two other occasions i supported the actress.

one being eeeeeew kissing brad pitt. she was 12. was told to kiss a 31 yr old. i bet it was eeeew. i support the woman saying that.

to me that is flexible and fluid. doing the gray.

[bettyellen]

125. Yes, pretending that disagreeing with her is rigid or doesn't mesh

With liberal or feminist goals is utter bullshit- a RW trope no matter who employs it.
Supporting freedom of choice is more tolerant than Ms Dunst's point of view. Anyone pretending otherwise is gaming us.

[lillypaddle]

134. I have been a member of DU as long as you have

but thank you for your sage advice anyway.

[bettyellen]

149. Well then you know when people whine about being "too PC"

On a liberal web site they will be reminded it's a RW meme. You should be very accustomed to that by now.
Not sure why you needed to take a swipe at DUers or why after all these years you feel like you don't fit in. But those two things are likely related, and the eye rolls didn't help.
It would have been fun to hear your opinion. So sorry you were too frightened to share it. Lol.

[Bobbie Jo]

158. Excellent post.

[bettyellen]

163. If she didn't back pedal and pretend it wasn't about DUers...

But unfortunately now, it wasn't about DU at all. Lol. Not so excellent anymore!

[seabeyond]

71. maybe they are not black and whit.e maybe it is you, making these "fundies" into speaking black and

white, cause really it is you that .... well, wtf. what a mix up

[Tuesday Afternoon]

133. I think the tactic being used here is called: Projection. n/t

[Iggo]

113. You're saying you meant SOME, but you actually said Most.

Kinda jumps right out at ya.

[lillypaddle]

131. Inartfully spoken (written)

I meant most "fundie liberals" not most DUers. That's what I was talking about.

[bettyellen]

150. No, you clearly called out most DUers and described them as "fundie liberals"

You then went into detail about nasty "fuck you" posts specifically here on DU- that are no where on this thread.
Your complaint was you felt you were afraid to share your opinion here, and you never did. (Please share it- no one here is swearing!!)

This was never about some other "fundy liberals". That's not at all what your posts say - you reference here at DU every single post.
Sorry, I don't buy your stellar CV after that bit of dishonesty. Nope. You'd be a hell of a lot more precise with your criticism and would know better than to parrot Fox News.

[rumdude]

65. It's pure bigotry in reverse

Fundie liberals...that's a good way to put it.

[seabeyond]

72. again DUDE, it is called DISAGREEING. why is only one side, the side you believe in,

which of course making the woman submissive and the man dominant, the ONLY one allowed to be expressed on du.

why am i a bigot, disagreeing with what the woman says?

why are you not a bigot, telling me i have to adopt the submissive role cause it is what this woman and you believe, and if i speak out against the submissive role, i am a bigot.

what sense does that make.

unravel it for me DUDE.

[Puzzledtraveller]

95. I agree lillypaddle

[rumdude]

48. This is the way many people feel and it's perfectly normal

and natural. To get all upset about it is ridiculous!

[seabeyond]

50. it is also what allows us to have congressman tell women to put an aspirin between our knees,

get paid less and told to lay back and enjoying it since rape is inevitable.

how about it dude, can i argue it? is it ok with you... dude?

[rumdude]

59. You're conflating completely separate issues

She is as entitled to her views on relationships and gender roles as much as any transgender or gay person is. It's as simple as that.

[seabeyond]

63. no. i am not inflating two separate issues. you are just unable to see hwo they are joined at the

hip cause of your own beliefs. of course she is entitled to her views, as i am entitled to mine.... calling her views out.

it is... as simple... as that.

[Delmette]

49. My great grandmothers would disagree.

These are the women who homesteaded next to their husbands and pulled their weight every day. They were competent capable women who didn't need or want to be saved and pampered. I'm proud to be independent and self-sufficient like they were.

That being said I admit to enjoying my central heat, washing machine and car, machines they never imagined.

[seabeyond]

51. abso fuckin' lutely. as a woman of privilege lectures women to wait for her white knight. nt

[TNNurse]

52. She was in a movie "Mona Lisa Smile"

I think she needs to watch it again. She missed the point.

[Dawson Leery]

56. +1

[DeadLetterOffice]

54. I love my knight in shining armor very much.

I also enjoy getting to BE the knight in shining armor.
It's one of the things that's made my relationship work for 30 years -- my partner and I get to be all the bits of ourselves with each other, and when needed we take turns holding each other up.
Mostly, we make an A-frame so that neither of us falls down.
I will cope if someday I have to hold myself up all alone, but I won't enjoy it nearly as much.

Also, I like the idea of valuing the feminine, but I suspect my understanding of 'feminine' and Ms. Durnst's are rather different...

[lillypaddle]

75. Good for you

More power to you!

[Raine1967]

85. Nicely stated.

I really appreciate these words.

Ms Dunst can say whatever she wants to say, but I certainly won't allow her to insult me and who I am as a woman. She's wrong, IMO -- but I don;t look to her for advice on how to be a woman..

…and because of that, she's just background noise to me.

[JoePhilly]

57. Did she say it through her husband?

[mathematic]

58. She just wants a man that would walk through fire for her.

[LittleBlue]

60. Do what you want and ignore the noise

There is too much societal pressure to do x, y, z, etc.

Forget it and live life the way you want.

[Hip_Flask]

61. What she said and what you wrote don't seem comparable...

... at all...

[Puzzledtraveller]

97. yeah,but it doesn't incite the kind of rage the are addicted to

[aaaaaa5a]

62. Not to offend Kristen Dunst or her like...

but nostalgia largely sucks!


Nothing irks me more then people (or even historians) speaking fondly of the antebellum south, the 1950's etc., etc.

What it really represents is ignorance. These folks do not understand the number of people before them who worked, bled and died to give them their rights today. The number of people (especially women) who freely rewrite history and remember "only the good hollywood parts." is sickening.

[rhett o rick]

69. I have been on this planet a lot longer than Ms. Dunst and think I know a bit more

about relationships. It's my opinion that for a relationship to work (and that isnt restricted to a married relationship) it takes a lot of hard work, understanding, caring, and luck. It has absolutely nothing to do with perceived gender roles. Ms. Dunst shows she doesnt have a firm grip on reality when she thinks that women should stay home and do the domestic chores. My view of reality is that in the middle class many if not most can not afford one member of the relationship to not earn a wage or salary. And many of us only have one adult member of the family any way.

I would love to see us go back to the good ole days of one wage earner working 40 hours a week, with the other adult able to take care of the house and family. Again, perceived gender roles wouldnt make a difference.

Ms. Dunst doesnt seem to be practicing what she is preaching, being a career woman and all.

[Demit]

102. Dunst didn't say half of what people in this thread are reading into it.

She said, "We all have to get our own jobs and make our own money, but staying at home, nurturing, being the mother, cooking – it's a valuable thing my mum created."

I don't think that's saying definitively that "women should stay home and do the domestic chores." I think it's more defending what her mother did. She's defending it against being devalued.

She also said that if things don't work out with acting or her boyfriend, that she's going to live in a house with her best friend from childhood Molly, because you have your girlfriends for life.

Lol, she's 31 but sounds a lot younger to me. She has a lot to learn still. I think she speaks off the cuff, saying whatever comes into her head at the time (last year she said that kissing Brad Pitt was disgusting) and people here are treating it like she's delivered some kind of manifesto.

[seabeyond]

118. i believe she was 12 when instructed to kiss a 31 yr old brad pitt. as much as i like pitt, ya....

probably eeeeeew for her. whatever the movie, having a 12 yr old kiss a 31 yr old grown man says something about our society and culture. i am gonna have to 100% support her on that one.

[Demit]

135. Not that that was central to my point...

and sure, 12 year old girls are more likely to be attracted to the heartthrobs closer to them in age, but it's common enough for girls that age to have romantic crushes on men. She didn't, at least on Brad Pitt, and didn't mind saying so 20 years later. Without demonstrating any kind of reflection that would come from being 20 years older. So that her current musings that are causing such a stir in this thread are hardly worth worrying about, was my point.

I believe our society & culture aren't much different from societies & cultures in the past, in that girls at 12 years old are well on their way to experiencing romantic feelings. I believe Anne Frank was 13 when she wrote her diary, which had some parts apparently edited out by her father.

[seabeyond]

139. having a crush on an old man and 31 is an old man to a 12 yr old is different than lip locking.

we women have been trying to get this point across for a while. for the older man to have illusions that a 12 yr old wants to get it on, is sad self lying. most all 12 yr old girls fanaticize. you are correct. they have a libido just like the boys do. they think about sex just like the boys do. they will use their new found sexuality on the old men. cause they are playing, testing, seeing, learning, growing. that is THEIR job at that age

and old men are suppose to get that being the adult and all. they are suppose to get that this is a young girl, just walking into her sexuality trying it on. using them in playing, testing, seeing, learning, growing. the old men are suppose to be the responsible one. the old man is suppose to allow our children this, without taking advantage, manipulating, using this.

[Demit]

152. Thanks for the lecture.

Why do you think I need a lecture, and what does it have to do with the scene in the movie they were in? Or what does it have to do with the topic in the original post?

[seabeyond]

154. "Why do you think I need a lecture". this----->

and sure, 12 year old girls are more likely to be attracted to the heartthrobs closer to them in age, but it's common enough for girls that age to have romantic crushes on men. She didn't, at least on Brad Pitt, and didn't mind saying so 20 years later. Without demonstrating any kind of reflection that would come from being 20 years older. So that her current musings that are causing such a stir in this thread are hardly worth worrying about, was my point.

I believe our society & culture aren't much different from societies & cultures in the past, in that girls at 12 years old are well on their way to experiencing romantic feelings. I believe Anne Frank was 13 when she wrote her diary, which had some parts apparently edited out by her father.

just saying.

hey. i felt good saying it. not relevant, let it go. does not appply. but ya, your post took me there.

have a good sunday, sincerely.

[Demit]

161. Got it.

You feel good saying things that aren't relevant and, once you've said them, the other person should let it go.

I've read your past posts, seabeyond, and I can safely say you haven't acquitted yourself too well in this particular exchange. You have a good sunday too.

[seabeyond]

162. and i feel my reply was perfectly in line to what you gave me. that is why i posted,

the direction i did. i was merely replying to your posts. each step of the way. as i am doing here.

i simply do not feel the need to address this in battle mode. not in the mood, and i like you.

[CFLDem]

117. Very well said!

[yuiyoshida]

73. Wow, she makes a few Spiderman movies and suddenly

As the girl friend of Peter Parker, she considers herself an expert on relationships. : That's like actor who plays Spiderman being an expert on Arachnids.

[Egnever]

99. Yes god forbid she has an opinion

[progressoid]

78. OK, so now I'm even less impressed than I was before.

[gollygee]

79. No, you just need people to be authentic.

People need to be their true selves with their romantic partners, and while in her particular case that might mean what she says, her experience is not universal.

[Ken Burch]

80. Lesbians, of course, would find an alternate meaning in that elised quote.

Not sure if Our Little Kirsten realized that.

[tarheelsunc]

82. Really funny how she would know so much.

She's 31, she's never been married, and she's apparently had over 10 boyfriends since becoming famous, many of whom only lasted for a few months and none for longer than 3 years. Yet she's an expert on how to make a relationship work?

http://www.whosdatedwho.com/tpx_1446/kirsten-dunst/

[winter is coming]

84. No; for a relationship to work, partners should have compatible expectations. n/t

[ismnotwasm]

86. I AM a "knight in shining armor"

Last edited Sat Apr 12, 2014, 10:47 PM - Edit history (1)

I don't fucking need one. I'm a nurse and a damn good one. "Traditional" role you say? Trust me you don't want to know what I do over the course of an average work day.

OT but Other benefits-- I get to wear practically pajamas to work with comfortable shoes.

In the course of my marriage there is always give and take of support and "saving". When I need him-- my husband is right there. And I do the same for him. 22 years this month, As a matter of fact

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

160. Practically pajamas?

The shoes are indeed great, but scrubs are the downside of nursing as far as I'm concerned. I've seriously considered making my own, the ones on the market are so lacking in both style and enough pockets. If and when I get my weight back down, there are some EMT pants that have what I consider enough pockets, but depending on the hospital and department, might not be available in the right colours. I detest that triangular neckline in particular. I want something in a keyhole, maybe even with a mandarin collar.

[noamnety]

87. I'm not sure I'm doing this relationship thing right.

I spent my morning standing over the open septic tank reporting to my husband on the status of poop flow.

Sometimes I look at romanticized visions of how people think households are run, and look at my actual life, and feel like I'm trying to follow a recipe for coconut flan and the only ingredients I have are canned chicken and grape koolaid.

[MisterP]

88. It is shap'd, sir, like itself, and it is as broad as it hath breadth; it is just as high as it is,

and moves with its own organs. It lives by that which nourisheth it ... its color is of its own color

[ismnotwasm]

142. A crocodile?

Or an allegory?

[Proud Liberal Dem]

92. Sounds like she's watched too many "old fashioned" movies/tv shows

or been in too many of them. But, hey, whatever floats her boat, right? I mean, if that's what she wants, she's free to pursue that, right?

[Puzzledtraveller]

93. if it works for her then thats great

My wife embraces aspects of traditional gender roles why challenging other aspects, on the outside it may appear one way but you would never know. The difference is she doesn't have a public microphone in which to state her views. My wife has always been a solid liberal.

[MrMickeysMom]

96. Are you really going to value her opinion?

I'm not. She's a fun actress to watch, but she's young and has had her own issues "finding herself". Next decade, she'll write a book of how she should have done something else.

Weak…

[kiawah]

103. So.... let me get this straight...

"nurturing, being the mother, cooking – it's a valuable thing..."

equates to

"tending the fields, being the butler - these are valuable things African-Americans have done for us. Sometimes, separate but equal is a good thing...."

That is one fucked up analogy...

[bettyellen]

115. It's a good analogy because few had a choice ....

Women were sent to asylums, nunneries or brothels if they did not comply with their husband's expectations of sex on demand, bearing him as many children, doing the full share of housework, etc. There was no freedom in that, and our society condoned it for too long.

[okieinpain]

124. huh? I've never heard of that happening. can you

Point to some document to back that statement up.

[bettyellen]

126. Wow, you have loads of reading to do then.

You should educate yourself before continuing the conversation any further on women's issues. If you weren't aware of what I posted, you are woefully uninformed.
Good luck!

[knitter4democracy]

159. Here's just a bit of reading:

http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/broughttolife/themes/menalhealthandillness/womanandpsychiatry.aspx

http://voices.yahoo.com/insane-asylums-1800s-life-inside-7405926.html

http://www.tngs.org/library/asylum.htm

http://www.ushistoryscene.com/uncategorized/mentalheathreform/

[okieinpain]

122. thank you. I was wondering if any one was going to bring that up. n/t.

[alp227]

129. My point was to show a double standard

Why is it ok to champion gender roles in the modern era but not the same for race?

[LuvLoogie]

106. I didn't read the Kirsten Dunst article

because, really, who gives a shit?

[Iggo]

107. Aw, what a sweet little idiot.

(I was gonna say "dunce", but I thought people might think I was making a play on her last name, which I wasn't. I just think she's stupid.)

[MadrasT]

123. I can't even process these remarks.

What is "be a woman" even supposed to mean? A "woman" by whose definition?



Binary gender nonsense.

[seabeyond]

127. i know. me, too. lol. my first post. i am not knowing what she is even saying.... lol

i hear ya woman

[LWolf]

151. "The feminine..."

I'm wondering what, exactly, she defines as "the feminine."

It's true that I nurtured my sons. It's also true that they nurture me in return. Oh, they'll be my knights when I need it; they'll protect and defend me from the world. They'll also call me on any weakness they spot, drag me back to my feet when I fall, and give me a boot in the butt to get me going when needed. They are used to me being smart, strong, independent, and capable, and wouldn't tolerate anything less. Yet, if they see a need, they are there filling it before I ask. It's what we do.

I hate cooking. As a working mom, I made sure everyone got fed. I taught my sons how to cook for themselves, clean up after themselves, and be a productive member of the household. As men, they still do all of these things. As a matter of fact, when any family meals are going to be eaten, they, and my grandson, do all the cooking. They insist. You see, they LIKE cooking. For me, it was yet another chore to check off my daily duties..."feed everybody." To them, it's creative and fun. I haven't cooked for them since they moved out.

When it became necessary, my son gave up his job and stayed home for two years to care for his own son's special health needs. When my grandson had progressed to the point that he didn't need a stay-at-home dad, my son went back to work to do his part to earn the household money, as well. He isn't female, but he damned sure knows how to nurture.

My son is his own son's knight in shining armor. My grandson wouldn't have lived to start kindergarten if he'd been left to his mother's "nurturing," and I mean that literally.

We are a close, loving, healthy family BECAUSE none of us have been limited by traditional gender roles.

[seabeyond]

156. all of this. wonderful. wonderfully said

having two boys myself,... i am there with you. as much for them, as for me, i reject these roles we are given, whatever they may be.

[onecaliberal]

153. Wonder how she would feel

If she had a real job and kids and home without maids cooks nannys etc. making lower wages than men. Something tells me she would change her tune if she had to work all day then come home and cook, clean, wash, help kids with homework, taxi them to various places and back. All while her husband came home from work and enjoyed relaxing evenings while she ran around "being a woman"