Hey America! Don't like some law? Get together a couple hundred of your friends with guns!

[MohRokTah]

The law won't be in effect any more so long as you and a couple hundred friends have guns and say you won't abide by the law!

Welcome to Galt's Gulch, where freedom reigns!

We're now livin' the Ayn Rand dream here in America!

[HooptieWagon]

1. OWS take note. nt

[MohRokTah]

2. Read the fine print.

Offer only valid to right wing white people.

[HooptieWagon]

5. Wrong. Offer only valid to heavily-armed group.

The Government no longer works for us, nor does it protect our Constitutional rights, such as peaceful assembly. We are very near the point where defense of our Constitutional rights must be undertaken by ourselves. The Govt, and its militarized police forces, serve the interests of corporations and the 0.1% Elite.

[RedCappedBandit]

53. Yeah right.

If a bunch of heavily armed non-whites showed up in Zucotti park they sure as shit wouldn't get their way.

[HooptieWagon]

152. How did unarmed unions do before acquiring mafia muscle?

Hint: not well.

[ancianita]

150. Beg to differ. I've seen how well the Bureau of Land Management maintains publicly owned lands out

West -- for preventing forest fires and preserving wildlife -- and they're a good department, manned by Americans like you and me. They work hard out in the West, and it's not uncommon for many individuals out there to think they can squat and help themselves to whatever public lands they want. These self-styled 'victim' vigilantes who want to start a 'land war' against the feds are in the wrong. Their interests do not in any way trump the larger public interest.

The fact that the elites are trying to get Congress to allow them buy up all the national parks for fracking and other extraction industries they own should be one good reason you'd support at least a project to put solar panels into lands that can help more Nevadans than does one millionaire cattleman with plenty of his own land to use. At least this project produces energy for the many.

[HooptieWagon]

155. How are we differing?

I'm merely pointing out the Govt, right or wrong, backed down when facing a heavily-armed large group. Would the govt have backed down if Occupy had showed up instead of an armed militia?

[ancianita]

166. The BLM isn't a security group, doesn't have the authority or firepower to stand up to guns. It's

interior land maintenance department that depends on the good will of citizens to respect publicly held land. This is about how the BLM wants to handle the conflict, not the feds.

If the governor asks the feds to come in, then this whole attempt to strong arm BLM would go down differently. But what's happened doesn't prove that armed resistance is either right or scares off the government.

[Cha]

194. Thank you for your post, anicanita.

[ballyhoo]

165. Well said. And that's where we are. And if we don't get seriously

1955 mean, we are done for. I'd bet a good piece of change that major cities will get hit with drones should too many of the Bundy Brouhahas take place. I think what happened between the ranchers and the Feds was huge.

[Vashta Nerada]

3. That's what I got out of the whole ordeal.

[BlindTiresias]

4. Lol

I mean yeah, this has always been true.

[BlindTiresias]

6. Although to be fair

The federal government will likely freeze his assets.

[CJCRANE]

7. It also helps to have Fox News on your side.

Hannity's Dangerous Game Touting A Rogue Rancher And His Violent Threats

Fox News' Sean Hannity is increasingly -- and dangerously -- taking on the role of PR agent for a Nevada rancher defying the federal government with violent threats.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/04/11/hannitys-dangerous-game-touting-a-rogue-rancher/198864

[99Forever]

8. You really believe that this moran's stunt was worthy of...

... the loss of human lives?

Well then, it would seem that both you and he have the same kind and level of mentality. No shots fired seems a very much more desirable outcome than what you advocate.

Let all of idiot NRA badasses disperse back to their own "compounds," then go in and arrest the clown. Lock his ass up and throw away the key.

[MohRokTah]

9. You really think letting hundreds of gun toting terrorists believe the threat of violence

is all it takes to avoid fallowing the law is a good thing?

The loss of human lives now that these terrorists have been emboldened will be hundreds, if not thousands of times greater than failing to cave in to their violent threats now.

[99Forever]

15. These jackasses were spoiling for a confrontation.

They didn't get it. And their lives are about to become MUCH more complicated. There's more than one way to skin a dipshit.

[MohRokTah]

16. IF by "more complicated" you mean Bundy gets the money

and continues to illegally use the federal land for grazing, I guess you're right.

[99Forever]

17. Yeah, that's what "I meant."

Good one, dude.

[MohRokTah]

21. News flash

A BLM agent acting under color of authority reaches an agreement with Bundy that is witnessed by Gillespie.

That rises to the level of contract.

Bundy cannot be touched now.

[99Forever]

31. Thank you Judge MohRokTah.

[MohRokTah]

33. Wait and see. eom

[99Forever]

36. Nope, I want to see right now!

Really troubles you that there wasn't a bloody firefight, does it MohRokTah?

[Aerows]

126. Or embolden

a dipshit...

[ballyhoo]

168. Just the opposite. Their lives are to become much more

evil and aggressive. They'll all end up as ready as the more fierce militias, and I would bet money is now pouring into them from all kinds of types. The next confrontation the government better be ready to do something besides retreat because the other side will be ready for action.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

18. Settle down, Francis.

[MohRokTah]

20. Condecension as ad hominem.

Fascinating.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

23. You're running around waving your arms in panic that thousands will be killed.

An unserious statement deserves an unserious response.

[MohRokTah]

25. Embolden violent terrorists.

Violence ensues.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

32. Embolden violent authoritarianism and despotism ensues.

People before power.

[MohRokTah]

34. Then we have nothing further to discuss.

It's obvious you and I cannot agree and I will no longer take the bait.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

41. The civil rights movement was based on civil disobedience.

If people want a law they must understand that they are setting the circumstances wherein they want the government to employ lethal force. Decide what you are willing to kill for. A few hundred cattle on hundreds of thousands of acres of land isn't worth a fight, blind obedience to authoritarianism notwithstanding.

[SCUBANOW]

51. This!!!!

[Brigid]

54. Yep, you pick your battles.

That's what this boils down to.

[snappyturtle]

115. These are words to live by....at least they once were. But I've changed my mind of

late as I've seen our freedoms eroded. I don't believe we can give an inch anymore. While I do not advocate for violence, I have come to the conclusion that meeting like with like, especially in this instance, MAY have signaled to TPTB that people are tired of being pushed around. Let's not forget all the kettling and harassment (free speech cages) that took place during the political conventions in 2008 and the occurrences of brute force during the peaceful protests of OWS. If we want to keep peddling the Home of the Brave and the Land of the Free mantra, does the gov't or its minion subsidiary law enforcement agencies such as the BLM dare to show the world it attacks its citizenry? I hope not. imho

[Nuclear Unicorn]

131. Like my signature says --

Be the Jell-O balloon cat.

You can't nail Jell-O to a wall. You can't squeeze a balloon. You can't herd cats.

We live in a nation that has 51,000 pages of tax law -- and that's just taxes. For all practical purposes they may as well be publishing laws in secret and then prosecuting people for breaking their secret laws. And in those secret laws are carve-outs for the highest bidders and even then only the richest can afford to obey they law or exploit them to their advantage. And that's just taxes.

Cronies are rewarded. Small businesses and families are being destroyed. Crooks go unpunished while the people are susceptible to becoming criminals even if all they want to do is live their lives peaceably.

We have come to the point where we MUST simply walk away from the dictates they impose upon us. Not violently -- because that's not what Jell-O balloon cats are about -- but we must look tem straight in the eye and demand to know what, exactly, they plan to do with 300 million restive citizens.

[snappyturtle]

162. I'm not advocating violence but letting the 'authorities' know when pushed, shoved,

tased and threatened we too will take a stand. Let them think about it. We out number them...and we are restive. Who's to blame for that?

I agree that we must walk away...it's the best...but let's make them think about what it is they're doing to us. All we're doing is reversing the tables.

[ancianita]

157. If by "we" you mean you and me as taxpayer owners of that land, hell yeah, not one inch to squatters

The BLM waited patiently twenty-plus years for this moocher of public land to move his cattle back onto his own land. I don't know about you, but as far as I'm concerned, he and his band's "issues" are indefensible. He's made his millions off our land while refusing to pay our grazing rights lease fees; so now that he, his entitled Republican gun-totin' vigilante thugs and their FOX echo chamber can cry me a riviera. He's more of a leech than Republicans claim the poor are.

[snappyturtle]

164. I certainly did not. I'd like to see some sources for Bundy having made millions of

dollars. He owes the money...yes. He was and is taking a stand. As an American citizen he has that right. Will he lose big time...probably. Satisfied?

Along with the validation of his income please forward what the band's (?) "issues" are that you find indefensible.

[ancianita]

167. Yep, satisfied. And I agree with you. This vigilante band thinks this is his land. That "issue,"

along with their self-styled right to bear arms for some rich squatter in the area. That issue. If they're going to do battle, they'd better be legally right. That issue.

[snappyturtle]

171. Excuse me. My guess would be they didn't like the tactics of the BLM against

the peaceful protesters armed with call phones and a camera. I don't think arms were to protect Bundy but themselves in a protest situation. If legally carried they have that right, period. Still waiting to hear how Bundy amassed his fortune.

[ancianita]

172. This guy owns a ranch. He owns double the number of cattle the BLM allows on that acreage. Cattle.

No one who owns cattle is poor. No one who owns a ranch across generations is poor. No one who lawyers up regularly to fight to use public land instead of paying for grazing rights is poor. http://www.thewildlifenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Order-US-v.-Bundy-7-9-13.pdf

Still waiting for you to support the greater public interest in all this.

[Paladin]

71. My, my, my. 25% of your posts in Gun Control/RKBA.

Imagine my lack of surprise......

[Nuclear Unicorn]

125. "Imagine my lack of surprise......"

Imagine my lack of concern.

[Lizzie Poppet]

202. A "poisoning the well" fallacy.

Imagine my lack of surprise...

[Logical]

68. He wins this one. And they now know to bring 100s more to the next showdown. Stupid to back off. nt

[Curmudgeoness]

112. That's the truth....as well as adding 100's more ranchers

to the "we aren't paying to graze" club.

[Logical]

161. Great point! n-t

[CTyankee]

10. where are our devout 2A supporters?

come out, come out, wherever you are...

[MohRokTah]

11. These idiots have been talking about "second amendment solutions" for years.

It seems they knew just threatening violence is all it takes to overthrow the rule of law.

[CTyankee]

12. funny that they ain't here, isn't it?

I mean, don't they have a reason to defend the insurrectionists?

[MohRokTah]

14. All ti takes to fight a federal agent is a few assholes with guns.

It really pisses me off that the gun assholes win by threatening gun violence.

[Electric Monk]

26. LOL, you are so transparent

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1262&pid=421

[MohRokTah]

27. It worked for the milita terrorists in Nevada. eom

[ancianita]

174. Not really. The BLM just doesn't fight trespassers. They take them to court, is all. This is theater

that in no way shows up the feds to be inconsistent or powerless. The feds are letting the BLM handle this their way, is all. They don't care about the PR like these chest-beating gun nuts do.

[Boreal]

28. Me too

It really pisses me off that the gun assholes win by threatening gun violence.


Cops have murdered more innocent people in the last decade than all of the US troops killed in Iraq. Not to mention the thousands of family dogs blown away for shits and giggles by these psychopaths hiding behind "the law". The sooner all US, state and local LE are disarmed, the sooner I'll feel safe.

[Crunchy Frog]

128. And then they'll be replaced by right wing militias

And things will be so much better.

[MohRokTah]

130. This is what we're in for.

Right Wing Militias will end up being what passes for "law" in this country. Don't obey them, you get shot down in the streets.

[BlindTiresias]

138. Want to get really scared?

Look up Hans-Hermann Hoppe. He is the cutting edge in anarcho-capitalist ideology and is being secretly adopted by the right wing. He specifically advocates for bands of like-minded rightists using force of arms and backed by corporate power to instate a kind of corporate feudalism in which local communities of right wingers dictate the laws based on their own personal conception of what ought to be allowed in a society.

[MohRokTah]

142. Isn't that the nutbag that claims Milton Friedman was a socialist?

I mean seriously, I think he's the nutbag that actually called the University of Chicago school of economic thought "socialism".

[BlindTiresias]

148. More common in the right than you might think

Friedman and Hayek both advocated for a negative income tax or basic income system, and have been all but abandoned by the contemporary right wing. You can definitely see the transition in the right wing follow the shift in anarcho-capitalism with resurgent right in the 70's and 80's following people like Friedman and Hayek fairly closely with the modern shift being a distinctly anti-democracy eliminationist one in the model of Hoppe, Rothbard, and Molyneux.

[nadinbrzezinski]

191. And most people around this country have no idea of any of this

If they win, this country is truly going to be up a shit creek, more like Mariana's Trench, without a paddle

[Crunchy Frog]

149. I can definitely see that scenario emerging.

Especially after today's events.

[ancianita]

175. Great. Corporate "death squads." Where in hell are the lawyers.

[nadinbrzezinski]

192. This is all those cute birdies we let loose coming home to roost

Right Wing militias are very common in places like Colombia, they used to be in Chile and Argentina Their favorite targets, reporters, students, union activists, and intellectuals.

[Boreal]

136. Millions of Americans

are armed, including some DUers, but it's cops who are on a killing spree, terrorizing families and communities, murdering family pets, murdering innocent people, beating innocent people to a pulp. So, no, I'm not worried about militias, I'm worried about the psychopaths running around killing people and getting away with it. Which militia murdered Miriam Carey? Which militia beat Kelly Thomas to death? What militia shot at a scared mom with a car full of kids? What militia broke into in an innocent family's home and shot their two family dogs who were in crates? Who was the militia that murdered a homeless man for camping? What militia murdered a handcuffed teenager sitting a squad car? What militia shot an old man in a nursing home as he leaned his walker? I could go on and on and on and on.

[Crunchy Frog]

154. I won't argue with you.

If you think the RW militias will be kinder and gentler, then more power to you.

I don't think you and I reasonably have anything to say to each other.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

30. The Department of Education has a SWAT team to deal with the

white collar crime of loan fraud.

It really pisses me off that the gun assholes win by threatening gun violence.

That is the basis of ALL law.

[ZombieHorde]

108. The US doesn't have rule of law.

Torturers can brag about their activities openly and nothing happens to them.

[hack89]

107. I support the 2A - I do not support Bundy or his dipshit supporters.

Why would I?

[CTyankee]

110. then what do you think should be done to stop him?

[hack89]

111. Wait to the situation calms down

And then he and the militia folks can be quietly arrested. I oppose a violent solution - it is not worth killing people over.

[CTyankee]

114. I agree, no violence. But it is nice to hear your solution to this guy...

maybe a quiet overnight in a local motel, then a gentle arrest, followed by a nice arraignment after brunch and a little chit chat among the lawyers, then the gun folks go home all rested and happy...cool beans, bro...

[hack89]

117. Please don't put words in my mouth

He should have the full force of the law directed at him - he must be made an example of. But in a non-violent way.

[CTyankee]

119. well, fine. That's nice, too. I approve.

[hack89]

121. I can't tell you how much that means to me

[CTyankee]

122. well, my parents told me to be polite...

[hack89]

124. You are getting better at it. Nt

[CTyankee]

129. I'm a feisty third generation Texan so be advised about my nice-ness...

I live in CT because it suits me better, but my roots are all Southern and Texan...

[agbdf]

159. 2A is the law of the land until repealed or modified.

The U.S. Supreme Court ruled, in District of Columbia v. Heller, that the Second Amendment applies to individuals and not just those serving in a government militia. However, the courts have consistently allowed for reasonable regulation of gun possession and gun sales. The way to get around the Second Amendment is to repeal it. I have never had an interest in owning or firing a gun but, until there is a change, debating the validity of the Second Amendment is just as futile as debating those of the First, Third, Fourth - and so on.

The reasonable regulations of firearms allowed under the Second Amendment are to encourage responsible gun ownership. I sincerely doubt that all of the militia members who showed up to support Bundy had responsible motives
in bringing their guns.

[KansDem]

13. Count me out...

I don't think I could kick dogs...

[TwilightGardener]

19. I'm confused--why can't this guy be arrested?

And all of his backwoods-inbred militia nutter friends too?

[Dwayne Hicks]

24. They can

And they will be.

[MohRokTah]

29. Bundy won't be arrested.

If a BLM agent acting under color of authority reached an agreement with Bundy that was witnessed by Gillespie as has been reported, that rises to the level of contract and Bundy cannot be touched.

[TwilightGardener]

35. It's up to an agent on site to decide whether someone will be

held on federal charges (such as threatening federal agents)? I have never heard of this. Wouldn't the FBI get involved?

[MohRokTah]

37. This entire thing has been a civil matter from the beginning

If an agent came to an agreement over how to proceed in the civil matter, the matter is closed.

[TwilightGardener]

39. Armed resistance against agents of the government isn't a civil matter.

Otherwise who the fuck would ever pay grazing fees again? Who the fuck would ever pay their taxes?

[MohRokTah]

42. Show where Bundy himself was involved in armed resistence.

Some miliita assholes threatened armed resistance, but Bundy himself never did.

This guy knew what he was doing all along, he's getting what he wanted all along and if anybody pays for it, it will not be him.

[TwilightGardener]

44. I guess we'll find out if federal charges are brought. I think he will go to jail.

[MohRokTah]

45. I think a few of the militia assholes will be arrested in a few weeks, maybe.

Bundy gets what he wanted, though.

[TwilightGardener]

47. Oh, we'll have to see.

[Dwayne Hicks]

38. What?

HE openly threatened violence against lawful federal agents. That is a class c felony with a 5 year mandatory prison term.

[MohRokTah]

40. Actually, there were no direct threats made by Bundy.

Some of the militia assholes posted direct threats online, but Bundy himself never made any direct threats.

[agbdf]

137. Yes, I agree

It certainly does look to be a fait accompli. Good riddance to this whole ridiculous affair. Bundy and his supporters never deserved the attention showered upon them by mainstream media. By the way, because this was a national news story, I do believe the President was not only briefed on the standoff but, issued the stand down order. I think he chose wisely to call off the BLM agents. So little was to be gained and the potential for tragedy was real. The Waco incident occurred in 1993 and, the following year, it still was weighing on the minds of a significant number who went to the polls. For those of you too young to remember, 1994 was almost as bad for us as 2010 was.

This year, we are in a struggle to retain control of the U.S. Senate and the last thing we need is another Waco style disaster. Good work President Obama!

[gopiscrap]

193. Welcome to DU

[ancianita]

176. Nope. He can be arrested for defying this court order which overrides some witnessed "talk."

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Order-US-v.-Bundy-7-9-13.pdf

[Logical]

69. When? After 21 more years? nt

[Crunchy Frog]

43. They've reached an agreement with him.

As mentioned above, that reaches the level of contract that I guess supersedes any relevant court orders.

Myself, I would have employed siege tactics. Let Bundy and his buddies eat cows until they're gone and then surrender.

[TwilightGardener]

46. Did they make either overt or implied threats of violence or present weapons?

Did they block federal agents from BLM land? If they did, I can't see how any "agreement" would stand.

[MohRokTah]

48. Do not confuse the militia assholes for Bundy.

Bundy wasn't out there threatening violence.

He let others do his dirty work and only those others could ever be charged with anything, if at all.

[TwilightGardener]

49. Conspiracy to commit.

[MohRokTah]

50. The feds would have to prove prior contact

It was right wing media that fanned the flames on this one and prompted the milita assholes to take action. Bundy didn't to the best of my knowledge, contact any of these militia assholes.

[TwilightGardener]

52. I think they will find he directed some of these clowns, enlisted their help, fed them,

communicated with them, something. There is no way the federal government will ever let this stand, or we'll have anarchy. They'll wait for everyone to go home, from whatever crapholes they came from, and then arrest him later.

[ancianita]

181. This isn't about contracts. This is about the original BLM permit. Permit. This was reported two

years ago.

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2012/11/28/18-years-of-trespass-and-blm-still-hasnt-removed-the-cattle/

[agbdf]

205. Arrested on what charge?

For willfully obstructing a court order he might and probably should be picked up for contempt of court. That's what I think should happen.

Also, referring to the protesters as "backwoods-inbred" is not productive. These are mostly low income people who would benefit most from our party's programs. If African Americans voted 90 percent Republican, instead of with us, would you also use the "N-word" to describe them. The problem with these types of attacks is that through design or otherwise, it dehumanizes other human being. Let's leave that conduct to the other side - they are masters of it.

[Boreal]

22. Worked in Kiev nt

[tazkcmo]

55. Curious...

Where did you get your law degree?

[MohRokTah]

56. Curious...

where do you get your news?

[tazkcmo]

63. From you

"A BLM agent acting under color of authority reaches an agreement with Bundy that is witnessed by Gillespie.

That rises to the level of contract.

Bundy cannot be touched now."

I'm assuming you're a lawyer and have a degree so I was curious from which law school you graduated. I'm in need of a good lawyer...

[former9thward]

70. As a lawyer please do not get your legal help from arm chair DU 'lawyers'.

Including me although I am not presently in an armchair. You would do much better just throwing yourself on the mercy of the court.

[tazkcmo]

76. lol ty

I hope you're not charging me for this! Can I get a free initial consult here?

[former9thward]

78. Yes, as long as you know it is worth what you are being charged ...

[tazkcmo]

81. No problem

After all, you get what you pay for!

[MohRokTah]

74. I have an understanding of contract law.

The only argument the federal government could possibly use was the contract was made under duress.

[tazkcmo]

79. An "understanding" huh?

"A BLM agent acting under color of authority reaches an agreement with Bundy that is witnessed by Gillespie.

That rises to the level of contract.

Bundy cannot be touched now."


May as well have said "I'm not a lawyer but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express."

[MohRokTah]

82. That is how contract law works

One need not sign a document to be contractually bound to an agreement. One need only agree, and have the agreement witnessed, to be contractually bound.

[tazkcmo]

87. See post 79. n/t

[MohRokTah]

88. See post 82. eom

[tazkcmo]

90. You are funny.

You make this statement
"A BLM agent acting under color of authority reaches an agreement with Bundy that is witnessed by Gillespie.

That rises to the level of contract.

Bundy cannot be touched now."

and then offer your "understanding of contract law" as your credentials to provide credibility. I would no more allow someone with an understanding of anatomy to do surgery on me than believe your conclusion that "Bundy cannot be touched now.". I'm sure he can and will be "touched" and mean while a potentially violent and ugly incident has been defused.

[IronGate]

91. I'm really trying to understand why he's so eager for bloodshed?

[tazkcmo]

92. Maybe

he has an understanding of mortuary sciences?

[IronGate]

95. Could be.

That would make sense.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

132. I don't know but I'm pretty sure of one thing --

he won't be anywhere near it.

[MohRokTah]

94. Wife is an attorney

And my job involves support of contract negotiation for Fortune 500 companies as I am a management consultant.

If I did not have a deep understanding of contract law, I would not have my job.

[tazkcmo]

96. Good for you both.

I'm glad to hear you are both gainfully employed.

[MohRokTah]

98. It's good to be employed.

My job is a soul sucking pit of sickening garbage, though, because the contracts I am involved with involve third party outsource agreements.

Five more years and I'm out, though, if I can make it without making myself sick.

[tazkcmo]

100. Good luck to you.

NO bs or snark.

[MohRokTah]

102. Thanks

You cannot imagine how badly I want out of this job.

[tazkcmo]

106. Sure I can. I hate your job already!

I've refused offers of employment from scum sucking, predatory, ruthless companies and I have a job now that I hate with the heat a million suns and will be putting in my one week notice tomorrow because I found a job with a local company that has a soul.

[Hoyt]

57. This is what happens when we allow a bunch of right wing haters to arm up.

It's only going to get worse.

[MohRokTah]

58. PRecisely

So long as the guns are out there, the gun assholes will use the threat of gun violence in a terroristic way to get their political will.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

60. Yep. The BLM should be disarmed.

[sweetapogee]

93. right

It would be like another Matewan, West Virginia.

[LittleBlue]

59. The "never back down" mentality got us Ruby Ridge and Waco. I'm glad the gov backed down

An issue over cattle grazing isn't worth the lives of hundreds of people.

Keep things in perspective. Violence isn't the answer here.

[MohRokTah]

61. I beg to differ, violence WAS the answer here.

And the violent terrorists won.

[LittleBlue]

64. Hundreds or thousands would have died

senselessly. Better to let them cool off.

It's really not worth starting a small war over something as stupid as cattle grazing. You kill them and they become anti-government martyrs.

[MohRokTah]

72. there were maybe 3 hundred armed terrorists.

By not taking a stand, the terrorists have won and will now be even more violent.

[LittleBlue]

83. Aaaaand that's why you're not making these decisions

Do you know how much carnage 300 armed people can cause? You may thirst for blood but most people don't.

[BlueStreak]

173. This administration is playing it smart. No Janet Renos. No Martyrs

They have already hurt Bundy badly. They can lay back, hit him some more in the courts, let the hotheads run out of money, then come back in and finish the job in a month or two. The last thing they want to do is turn a deadbeat asshole into a right-wing martyr.

This is smart. They are playing the long game.

[former9thward]

75. Thank goodness you are not in charge of anything.

[MohRokTah]

77. So you disagree that the threat of the use of violence was how the terrorists won?

What color is the sky in your world?

[former9thward]

85. My sky is full of colors.

That is why I love AZ. Waco and Ruby Ridge were disasters. The federal government recognizes that. It is a known fact that Waco is what sent McVeigh over the edge. The cows aren't hurting anybody. The practices of the BLM do not have a good reputation in the West. They need to take a close look at those and move on.

[ancianita]

185. Not necessarily so. New Mexico citizens I've met in Albuquerque and Silver City speak well of BLM.

It's not about the cows. It's about their owners.

[IronGate]

86. Well, we know what color the sky is in your world.

Red, as in the color of blood.

[Texasgal]

104. I think more people are worried

about getting food on the table to feed their families. Sorry, priorities and all that.

[ancianita]

178. That's PR. That's not how it's really going to go down.

[840high]

180. Violence is never the answer.

[Crunchy Frog]

187. It was this time. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. In this case, that decision will come back to hunt all of us

Because all you need to do is threaten violence.

Oh and endangered species is not just cows. There is far more to this than grazing. But I guess that is fine, since who cares about other species?

Sorry, but I can see how many ways this will come back to hunt us as a nation. You think Bundy is alone? I know there are at least ten of that type in my local back country. They just got a free card. All you need to do is get our friends to come along armed, and walla the feds will back down! This will cause more of these incidents, not less.

[Hoyt]

123. Yeah, racist gun trafficker Weaver hid behind his wife and kids. Feds gave

racist fun trafficker plenty of time to walk out. Instead, Weaver sent his kid out to murder an agent. Weaver, his love for Ayran Nation, and choice to hide behind his family rather than give up peacefully, caused Ruby Ridge.

[Crunchy Frog]

145. It is and it worked.

[SevenSixtyTwo]

62. You guys aren't really

picturing a bunch of NRA hillbillies up on the berm sitting up on their 1960's pickup trucks with long guns are you? These are very wealthy people working the system and apparently won. Nothing unusual here. The media makes it out to be a cowboys and feds gunfight but that's not the case. This one is all about money, power and politics.

[Union Scribe]

65. Your posts emit an unsettling aura of disappointment

that this didn't end up in an armed confrontation.

[MohRokTah]

66. My posts are due to a disappointment

that armed terrorists now dictate what the federal government can and cannot do.

[IronGate]

73. Oh bull.

The BLM backed off because cooler heads (not you) determined that an armed confrontation with the real possibility of loss of life on both sides wasn't worth some cattle grazing on public land.
Get real and quit frothing at the mouth for bloodshed.

[IronGate]

67. I'm trying to understand why he is so eager for a shootout.

[oneofthe99]

127. You noticed that also

[Savannahmann]

80. Do you remember Elian Gonzales?

Because if you had your way, there would have been a war in Miami instead of the achievement of the goal.

Let's review what happened in Miami shall we? The Federal Government de-escalated the confrontation and then retrieved the boy with zero casualties. Mission accomplished, and with no dead or injured. A brilliant use of strategic vision.

If you were in charge, the headlines on Sunday would have been about the American Tienanmen Square massacre. Thankfully that did not happen.

Force is best used as a scalpel, slicing as little as possible. You would use it as a sledgehammer bashing your way in. So let's play what if?

The use of the sledgehammer approach at Waco and Ruby Ridge was the justification behind the bombing of Oklahoma City and the bombing of the Olympic Park. In other words, much as we are relearning in the war on terror bashing people inspires more to resist. You never see Elian Gonzales as a poster child for Federal Abuses. You would give them the Range War they want. I wonder why?

Are you so obtuse as to believe that bashing people and killing them makes the victims anything but martyrs? Are you so immature as to believe that gunfights and maiming and death are cool? Even if Federal Authorities had won, it would have instigated more resistance instead of less. Republicans would have had a massive GOTV campaign. Thankfully the people in power are not so obtuse nor as immature. They are looking for the strategic victory, not a tactical win that dooms the nation and the party.

[MohRokTah]

84. The federal government was NOT bashing people

The BLM was carrying out its court ordered authority.

Armed terrorists were threatening violence.

The terrorists won.

That's how it went down, now rightwing terrorists nationwide are emboldened and matters will only get worse.

[Savannahmann]

89. The court ordered the surrender of Elian Gonzales too.

But there wiser heads prevailed and carried out the order wisely. Would you have preferred tanks in Miami to contain the riots? I honestly hope you are never in the position to make a decision like this. Because your Pattonesque grease the treds of our tanks with their guts mentality would lead to a massive public outrage and civil unrest.

[PoliticAverse]

158. Guys with guns came and got Elian...

[Savannahmann]

186. I never said they didn't.

I said that the government de-escalated the situation instead of attempting to go through the protestors.

[Crunchy Frog]

183. Yes, I remember it very well.

The government used overwhelming force, and Elian was siezed by heavily armed men. They were quick and efficient, and got the boy away from the kidnappers with no bloodshed. And yes, they did use Elian as a poster child.

What they did not do was simply back off and let the kidnappers have their way, as the BLM seems to be doing in this instance.

[Boreal]

97. You sure are bloodthirsty, OP

Maybe you should be a cop.



Edit: personal remark removed. I stand corrected!

[MohRokTah]

99. Ad hominems.

The last resort of one with no argument.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

133. said the guy running around claiming terrorists are going to kill thousands.

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. I am sure glad I do not do alerts

but since you are new... that is a personal attack.

Just a heads up

[Boreal]

109. I guess you're right

I don't understand the desire for bloodshed but I'll edit the post.

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. It is not a desire for bloodshed

I cover rural areas, and I get exactly where the OP is coming from. The old saying, give them an inch and they will take a mile comes to mind.

Of the top of my head I can think of ten folks in my back country that are getting the exact wrong message on this one. So this has the potential of leading to more of these incidents, not less.

It is truly hard rock, and hard place. Ruby Ridge is part of the mythology, but so is the we will fight the damn Feds, who are extremely evil, every time we have a chance. Well, from their POV, they just won. That will embolden them. Ruby Ridge, they did not win.

And trust me, as a former paramedic I abhor violence. This is way out of area of coverage and I sent it to my editor since this is one of those that can have unintended consequences where we travel.

It is also quite a bit of urban vs rural. I live in an urban setting, and most of my neighbors do not really get the danger of the far right hate groups (not just militia) that are part of quite a bit of the rural landscape (and to be fair my local beach bum community}

[MohRokTah]

120. Too bad posts cannot be recommended

Yours was truly eloquent while being explicitly informative.

[Boreal]

182. Well, sorry but

I cannot sympathize with anything you've said. I'm an old school liberal and I oppose heavy handed, authoritarian armed force. I'm also a Gerry Spence fan and I followed ruby Ridge closely. That was entrapment followed by murder. I have no idea what "mythology" you're talking about. I also don't know what you mean about "your" back country. Do you work for the BLM?

I agree that there is an urban v. rural dynamic at play. While I'm not a farmer or rancher, and I don't approve of killing animals for food, I'm sympathetic to a man and his family who only know this way of life and I believe it is threatened, just as small farming has been.

I've seen remarks in these threads about how more tasing should have been done, drones should have been sent in (for what - to kill people???) and I'm appalled. The OP was chomping at the bit for some kind of violent crackdown, while claiming it was citizens who were violent, which isn't true. The only violence was against the animals, tasing the guy's son and shoving a woman to the ground - all done by the BLM.

This man and his cattle aren't harming anyone and thi8s kind of harassment is what's out of line. "Give them an inch..." indeed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

190. Don't take my word for it

go visit a few sites on the far right, especially the Sovereign Movement and the Neo Nazi movement. I could also recommend the good folks at the Oath Keepers.

It is not about being liberal or not. Or authoritarian or not, or for that matter sympathy. Trust me, to these guys, the Feds are the enemy and so are you. And a good liberal is a dead liberal. What happened today is a victory, as big as not quite Fort Sumpter, more like the shot that rang around the world and started the first American Revolution (The Battle of Lexington and Concord)

As to the mythology of ruby ridge, those sites will make it very very clear for you. So is the idea of a second american revolution, where they will return the country to a mythical past that never existed. But the myth you have partly repeated it, but not fully (The influence of the far right on media). It was not entrapment, it was more like yes, he bought weapons and all that.

I will assume, you can correct me, that you live in a very urban center where you really rarely come across this way of thinking. I live in such an urban center and in my regular group of folks I rarely come across this thinking. In the country side, your ears would burn if you heard some of the things these folks at times say, both about the Federal Government, which just got worst since this uppity (*&*( took over, and I have heard those exact words by the way. But also at times even state government. Some of these folks would rather have absolutely no regulations and no government whatsoever. Part of the reason is those damn wonderful liberals in charge.

And some of this has come out of the mouths of government officials, as in board members, which I find ironic as hell.

The most extreme of these folks want ALL and I mean this, ALL local control. They don't even want a County Department of Public Works. Yes, it is that bad. So when it comes to the FBI, BLM and the rest of the alphabet soups, well then, they really both hate them and fear them.

I used to read those hate sites for fun, these days I have actually met people who believe that crap in the flesh.

And yes, we will have more, no less, incidents.

[2naSalit]

196. Somehow

I think it would benefit your perspective if you went for a drive out in the Rocky Mountain states, OFF the FREEWAY. You have no clue about which you opine here.

I think, especially in my case where I was flamed for speculating a couple scenarios where the millitiaclowns might have felt a win but not won at all, I say those of you who really don't get what life is like out here should take a road trip and check out the landscape... pictures just don't do it justice.

I happen to live out here in the region and have watched this 2+ decade long train wreck develop... and there are militias in my back yard and my front yard, three within a hundred miles of me (mind you, I often go a hundred miles one way just to go grocery shopping), and that's just in my red state.

The cattle in question in this case are not only on BLM land they are also illegally on lands administered by the NPS - NOT grazing allotment, and this guy is no small fry rancher, but he is a mega-welfare rancher who needs to be reined in. It isn't like he hasn't had twenty one years to comply with the laws that the majority of welfare ranchers sort of abide by (at least they get their damned cows off the range when they're supposed to even if they are running 25-80% more head than the allotment allows - and they pay their fees albeit less than they should be paying).

And yes, they are hurting more than one endangered species, cattle degrade springs and creeks and any place water is located which in turn destroys habitat which in turn depletes entire ecosystems via trophic collapse. Cattle are about the worst thing that has happened to the wild of the west next to humans. Watch this grapic example... http://www.westernwatersheds.org/

So this case is about how some welfare rancher has held the BLM at bay for decades, he has threatened violence in the recent past BTW, and the BLM finally got around to taking action and this is what happened.

Anyone calling for drones, I would think, would be for the drones to take out the damned cows... many of which are feral. So drones might be the answer to this problem and nobody but the cows will be targeted and that could end the whole mess in a matter of days. I'm not talking missiles or bombs just some gunfire would put down a bunch of feral cows and the predators and scavengers will take care of the remains thus feeding some wildlife.

I think this loud-mouthed toad should go to jail along with his ignorant spawn but that might be another day's task. For now, I would be happy to see the cattle off my property, this jerk has already shown he deserves no claim to the ownership of our collective property since he has no proper respect for the land, its owners' rules nor the environment, he has to go along with all his damned cows. His friends need to go home and learn to abide by our social contract or find some other place to be assholes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

105. For the record, but that is because of the area we cover

(Chiefly rural), you are right.

This is how this will go down all over the back country and this is not a good signal to send. Unless some folks are arrested, and charges can be proven on conspiracy and incitement to violence, this is not good.

I expect the language of standing up to the feds and all that crap to increase.

[ZombieHorde]

116. I strongly disagree with you,

but I do like that you take insults well. You just call out the insult and leave it at that.

I look forward to arguing with you in the future.

[MohRokTah]

118. I hate being right on this sort of shit, too.

But by looking at the far right sites, they are claiming a huge victory, are now going to push Issa to investigate this (you know he will), and are trying to figure out where next to use the armed terrorism approach.

[politicman]

134. if a black, Hispanic, Muslim Militia tried his, would it not have been forcefully ended?

Just a question for everyone:

If this whole thing was done by a black or Hispanic (or even worse, Muslim) Militia, do any of you seriously think that the Feds would not have gone and ended it with force?

I am not for bloodshed, but I am not for peaceful end to a solution when it only applies to white Militias.

Also, if the rule of law can be ignored by any armed group in a democratic nation, then doesn't that create a precedent for other armed Militias to attempt the same thing for their cause?

Lastly, if Black, Hispanic or Muslim group tries this stunt in future and it is ended forcefully, won't that show that colour of skin makes all the difference when it comes to whether violence is warranted.

Can none of you see the problems this solution could cause in future.

[MohRokTah]

135. This has been my point all along

Wingnut sites are dancing gleefully over their "victory" in this and are plotting how to best use the armed terrorist threat in the future.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

140. You can bet that they will use this tactic in the future.

I can see this happening at women's clinics, schools, political events/rallies, and seven months from now at various polling places around the country.

[MohRokTah]

146. They're already plotting use of the armed terrorist tactic.

Meanwhile, many on the left are happy this ended without violence, ignoring the imapct it will have on EVERYTHING in the future.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

156. Yeah well,

the flower children have pretty much neutered the lefty movement in this country. I can just picture the kvetching when the Jim-Bobs and KKKletus'es show up armed to harass people at voting precincts this November.

[BlindTiresias]

160. Agreed

History seems to always repeat itself. This wouldn't be the first time that well intentioned liberals have let the far right do whatever it pleases in the interests of preserving peace while evil men plan for war.

[politicman]

141. I guess the lesson out of this is that any new OWS movements should arm themselves?

I guess the lesson for this for the next future OWS movement is to arm themselves and then go and camp out on federal land in the middle of New York.

I wonder would anyone of those that think this 'peaceful solution' (to this situation where armed Militias defied a law and won was the right thing) support a future OWS movement if they did this in the middle of New York to stop themselves from being peppered sprayed and arrested?

[MohRokTah]

143. OWS would be slaughtered if they did.

This only works for wingnuts, progressives adn liberals need not attempt.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

147. "progressives adn liberals need not attempt."

The cities where OWS was abused the worst were the cities traditionally run by Democratic/progressive administrations, i.e. Oakland Denver, etc.

[politicman]

151. isnt that an indictment on how the feds let this armed group get their way

Isn't that an indictment on the whole situation then.

Because I can imagine how many groups out there right now are thinking that all they have to do is arm themselves and they will get their way.

[MohRokTah]

153. It definitely is an indictment on the whole situation.

Here we are.

[JJChambers]

139. Much of this militia WAS Hispanic. That was covered yesterday. n/t

[politicman]

144. Ok the, if it was a Muslim Militia, would this have happened?

I never knew that.

But my point still stands.

And Ill make it even easier for you. If this was a Muslim Militia, what do you think would have happened?

[ancianita]

163. Hell no. There wouldn't be an argument. Muslims would respect federal land law and would have

gotten the cattle off OUR land when our BLM asked them to, instead of trying to squat and cheat us out of our money. Muslims pay their bills. So much for your stereotyped hypothetical.

[politicman]

169. my hypothetical was to show the absurdity of letting this armed wing nut group..

get their way under the threats of violence.

I only used that hypothetical because Muslims are the latest public enemy it seems, and I wanted to show that if one armed group can stand in the way of a law being carried out and people on this forum support it, then how would they feel if it was a muslim militia doing the same thing.

[ancianita]

170. Ah, sorry I missed the ironic note there. You're absolutely right; the sympathy here is misplaced.

[DashOneBravo]

177. Good job

I think they did a good job. They can arrest him later and with no blood shed.

If it means that much to you. Feel free to grab a weapon and ruck up.

[Taitertots]

179. Now that the government has capitulated to insurection, we better expect it everytime the RW doesn't

get it's way.

[AnalystInParadise]

188. Yeah because

gunning down women and children makes much more sense. The BLM is playing the long game here, let the wackos go home after the weekend and then come up with a new plan.

[villager]

189. Only a couple hundred *rightwing* friends. If you're a Fred Hampton, say,

...they'll come gun you down in your bed, while claiming after the fact you were "violent."

[nadinbrzezinski]

195. Let me add this just for fun

since I bothered to go look it up

Sheriff Mack travels with other CSPOA members, Oathkeepers & State Legislators to stand with Nevada rancher against the BLM …
Many of you have called or emailed regarding the storm brewing between Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy and the BLM. We all know how we feel about the all-too-frequent bullying of individual citizens by various Feds with their usurped, unconstitutional powers. It’s an epidemic that must be stopped.

Well, we want you to know we ARE doing something about it, and thankfully this time we’re not alone. Sheriff Mack is leaving early Saturday morning for an emergency trip to Bunkerville, Nevada, along with other members of the CSPOA posse (hopefully that’s some of you!) to stand vigil and find a peaceful resolution to this conflict (i.e., the feds going home).

State Senate President Andy Biggs and House of Reps Speaker Dave Livingston have both agreed that Arizona should be involved in supporting CSPOA and Oath Keepers in going to Bunkerville, NV to support the movement for freedom there with the Cliven Bundy family. State Senators Al Melvin, Chester Crandall, and Kelly Ward along with State Reps Brenda Barton, Bob Thorpe, Kelly Townsend and Warren Peterson are all planning to be at the Bundy ranch by Sunday morning. Furthermore, they all plan to attend the Press Conference Monday afternoon with the CSPOA and Oath Keepers along with the Bundys and other sheriffs and public officials from across the country.

http://jhaines6.wordpress.com/2014/04/11/avn-bundy-ranch-update-sheriff-mack-oathkeepers-more/

I will just give you the tittle on this one

Militias Are On Route: Is the 2nd American Revolution Starting in Bunkerville, Nevada? -

See more at: http://www.thedailysheeple.com/militias-are-on-route-is-the-2nd-american-revolution-starting-in-bunkerville-nevada_042014#sthash.hkL8spKl.dpuf

http://jhaines6.wordpress.com/2014/04/11/avn-bundy-ranch-update-sheriff-mack-oathkeepers-more/

It is pretty self explanatory.

There is a lot more of this crap out there. The sad part is that since I have followed this crap for DECADES now, I knew what they were saying before looking for you.

[MohRokTah]

197. Welcome to the age of emboldened white wing nutbags waging an open shooting war.

Anybody who thinks the BLM backing down here is anything less than a complete disaster that will open the doors to the single most violent period in American history is only fooling themselves.

I say this as a person who originally met with this shit after being threatened by the Phineas Priesthood and having it followed up by the FBI back in 1996 because of things I posted on the internet.

[nadinbrzezinski]

198. I know, you know, I stopped writing a novel involving militias

and a school shooting, (ironically I was writing that scene, and also wrote one with one of these boy scouts flying a plane into the Federal building, since done), the day a certain school shooting happened in Colorado. I was writing that, and I put that file on permanent ice. but those books I read in the 1980s are just as applicable right now (Rage Across the Plain comes to mind)

[maddezmom]

201. ...

What haven't you done?

[AcertainLiz]

199. Another reason guns need to be restricted.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

200. OK, something tells me I missed something.

Can anyone fill me in???

[CFLDem]

203. In Roberts America

guns are free speech!

[LynnTTT]

204. I don't understand

Why the Hell did the put the cattle back? I sort of see why they stopped the round up, and are going to proceed thru courts etc
( which they have been doing for 20 years!!!). But why return the cattle?