People keep claiming that the BLM is impounding cattle because of tortoises...

[Gravitycollapse]

Namely, people at loony-tune websites like Breitbart and Infowars.

But I haven't read any official statement by the BLM stating it has anything to do with tortoises. They are enforcing a court order to remove the trespassing cattle because Bundy has failed to remove them himself. And he was ordered to remove them because he failed to pay the grazing fees. It has nothing to do with tortoises.

http://www.blm.gov/nv/st/en/info/newsroom/2014/april/southern_nevada__cattle.html
http://www.blm.gov/nv/st/en/fo/lvfo/blm_programs/more/trespass_cattle.html


I've also seen the tortoise argument bleeding over into some left-wing sites (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/04/10/1291105/-Cliven-Bundy-right-wing-extremist-domestic-terrorist-lawbreaker). The reason why this is a bad idea, beyond being factually inaccurate, is that it places the story in the wrong context. The right-wingers want to try and portray the BLM claims as frivolous and they specifically want to attach it to tortoises because the BLM has euthanized sick tortoises in the past. If they get readers to believe the impoundment is because of tortoises, it will naturally look as though the BLM is being hypocritical.


He's not trampling a tortoise sanctuary or ruining land. He's refusing to pay the grazing fees as part of a delusion of his that the United States government is not a legitimate state. That's a big difference.

[ZombieHorde]

1. I noticed different sources focus on different reasons

for what this is about. It's pretty interesting, in my opinion.

He's refusing to pay the grazing fees as part of a delusion of his that the United States government is not a legitimate state.

What are the qualities of a legitimate state? If we know about something (air, gravity, atoms, heat, etc.) we have a tests to determine if it is present. What are the tests for legitimacy and state?

[Gravitycollapse]

3. "...I don't recognize the United States government as even existing."

[ZombieHorde]

5. Well that sounds silly, but really, why should he?

If he is wrong, then we should be able to demonstrate it. Is the United States a property of something (matter, energy, etc.)? How do we test to see if it is present? How do we test to see if it is legitimate? Is existence of the US outside the scope of science, like God?

[Gravitycollapse]

9. The United States is a series of agencies and governances all of which wield power over territory.

Land owned by the federal government is subject to the power of the federal government.

This isn't a terribly complicated concept, if I'm being honest. So you must forgive me for being confused here. Are you trying to argue that the United States has no authority to control land which it owns? Because that is kind of insane.

[ZombieHorde]

12. I am saying that if something exists,

then we should be able to demonstrate it by using science, unless that thing is currently outside the scope of science or doesn't exist.

Are you trying to argue that the United States has not authority to control land which it owns?

No. I am saying that if we assert that the US exists at all, then we should be able to use science to demonstrate its existence.

Part of answering this question will probably involve defining a state. What are we looking for when we are looking for a state?

[cheapdate]

14. The existence of the government is pretty much self-evident.

If you require proof from the sciences that the Department of Motor Vehicles and the government of which it is a part are a real entities, the social sciences are the place to look. Hard sciences like physics aren't well suited for providing a meaningful understanding of social organizations.

[ZombieHorde]

16. You're right. It's just a social construct.

It's existence is based strictly on belief. If people stop believing in it, then it goes away. The state exists solely within the imagination of humans. Any thing that exists solely within the imagination is strictly imaginary. Therefore, the US is strictly imaginary.

I am not saying we should do away with the social/rhetorical construct, I am just saying that it is a social/rhetorical construct.

[cheapdate]

17. I wouldn't use the word "imaginary" so loosely.

Unicorns and Santa Claus are imaginary. Government is more than that. If you reduce every aspect of human existence to what's "real" and what's "imaginary" in that way, then there's really very little left that's human -- no art, no literature, no hopes or dreams, no communities, no society.

The idea of government is deeply, physically, embodied in the brains of millions of people who make up this country. From our conception of city councils and county boards, to state assemblies and the national government, the idea is embodied down to the unconscious level in our brains where we even begin to conceptualize our view of the social environment in which we live. And that reality is confirmed and strengthened by the expanding networks of associations and institutions that make up our society.

Maybe you could call it "imaginary" but I think it's more real than that.

[ZombieHorde]

25. "If you reduce every aspect of human existence..."

If you reduce every aspect of human existence to what's "real" and what's "imaginary" in that way, then there's really very little left that's human -- no art, no literature, no hopes or dreams, no communities, no society.

I have no problems with people recognizing things for what they are, especially if it means we stop killing each other over these imaginary things. These concepts aren't bad, I think they can be very beneficial, but they're less important than human life, in my opinion.

[cheapdate]

26. I'm actually quite deeply and radically opposed

to the entire edifice of so-called "civilization". But, you know, even "radicals" have bills to pay, tuition checks to write, etc. It's the same trap and the same dilemma. A good friend of mine is an avowed Marxist. He works for a bank. I lament urban sprawl while I live in a sprawling subdivision. I might think I have all the answers, but three-hundred million Americans might not agree.

[ZombieHorde]

30. Yeah.

It's a slow process.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

21. A simple test: try grazing cattle on land without paying the relevant fees.

If something comes and impounds them, call that phenomenon "the US state".

[ZombieHorde]

22. I saw the sun set behind the mountians.

The sun must revolve around the Earth.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

23. Your logic, it is not like our earth logic. N.T.

[Marshall III]

27. Tortoises is an old conspiracy, the new conspiracy is about Sen Harry Reid

selling the land to the Communist Chinese to build solar energy site that will help turn America into a spoke in the wheel of the One World Order.

Part of the grand design of communist domination (I guess they are taking a break from Muslim domination encouraged by the spread of Sharia law). Anything to blur the reality that these are just a bunch of right wing fanatics who believe they are ENTITLED to take whatever they want, whenever they want it......

Mr. Bundy- obviously, "you didn't build that" (ranch)!!!

[cheapdate]

2. Here's some reporting that claims it is at least partially related to protecting tortise habitat

"The BLM had modified some of the terms of the grazing permit to protect the desert tortoise. Bundy didn’t like the modifications and refused to pay the required grazing fee, but kept his cattle on the range anyway and did not obey the terms to protect the tortoise. Bundy rejected further government orders and even the orders of the federal district court and the 9th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals. For example, in 1998 the Nevada federal district court issued an order permanently enjoining Bundy from grazing cattle on the allotment. It ordered him to remove all trespass cattle and set a penalty of $200 per day per animal remaining on the federal range. Obviously by today, he owes a huge sum of money on his years of violations of the court order."

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2014/03/26/bundy-again/

“Beginning twenty years ago in 1993, the BLM has been in dispute with Bundy over his right to graze the Bunkerville allotment of the Gold Butte area. After the BLM terminated Bundy’s grazing permit for Bundy’s failure to pay required grazing fees in 1998, Clark County, as administrator for the Clark County Multiple Species Habitat Conservation Plan, purchased the grazing rights from the BLM for 375,000 dollars and retired them, in order to fulfill requirements under that plan to protect endangered desert tortoises.”

http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2014/03/28/kilter-trespass-cattleman-law/#.U0om7qLjK00

[Gravitycollapse]

6. Per your second article: the "war" being waged is "over simple noncompliance with law."

While it is environmental concerns that laid the foundation for the laws making grazing on the public land in question illegal, what is being waged here is not an environmental war but rather one over simple noncompliance with the law – law that Bundy has been willfully and defiantly violating for decades.

The tortoise issue was relevant 20 years ago when the fee agreements changed. But that was merely a catalyst for the issue. Bundy has stated repeatedly he does not recognize the authority of the federal government. He doesn't even believe that the United States is a legitimate state.

[cheapdate]

11. I agree that Bundy's asinine beliefs are the main driver of this situation.

He believes that the government of the United States is a fictional entity, that the federal courts have no authority over him, that Article 2 of the US Constitution -- which grants that "...Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States" -- doesn't apply to federal land in Nevada, etc.

Whatever. he's a fucking moron and a deadbeat.

But the desert tortoise is still a listed species, and the Bunkerville Flats areas is still a protected habitat, and the grazing plan is still part of a formal recovery plan.

[Boreal]

4. There's a lot going on here

Q. When did tensions boil over?

A. Things came to a head when environmentalists threatened to sue the agency to protect the endangered desert tortoise that lives on the land where Bundy’s cattle grazed. The BLM said Bundy’s cattle trampled the tortoise’s habitat.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2014/apr/11/q-behind-bundy-blm-battle/


BTW, where did you ever get the notion that the tortoises the BLM killed were sick?

[RobertEarl]

7. Those damn in-varmint-lists

We should outlaw the Sahara Club!!

I like tortoise. They taste like chicken.

[cheapdate]

18. Real funny.

[oneofthe99]

8. A little off topic but damn , I just looked at some pics of how tense it became today

I read about the stand off here on DU but I never knew it was this intense today.
Snipers perched up on bridges .

And I don't mean police snipers....

[cheapdate]

10. The Endangered Species Act requires habitat protection

for endangered species and provides the government with the authority and power necessary to accomplish it, including the power to require habitat protection on both public and private lands.

I love the Endangered Species Act and only wish that it had gone farther to include enforcement power for endangered plant species as well.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

13. Are cattle and cowboys endangered species? Are, tortoises?

[Yavapai]

15. It was reported that way by Reuters.

Here is the link

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/13/us-usa-ranchers-nevada-idUSBREA3B03Q20140413

[Jesus Malverde]

19. The language from the court order, it's ambiguous...

cattle have caused and continue to cause damage to natural and cultural resources

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Order-US-v.-Bundy-7-9-13.pdf

[Spitfire of ATJ]

20. I spent the evening working in the garage listening to local RW Talk Radio....

I do that sometimes just for the laughs.

There was a lot of woo. I heard the tortoise one but some callers claimed Harry Reed wanted to steal the guys land to build solar panels. Another claimed it was all a trick to get people to show up so the cops could record your license plate to get you later. Then the show host mentioned the email the station got of one gun happy type saying he was so mad over this that he was "going to go out and kill some libtards".

No mention that the guy owed grazing fees. Just that the government stole his land and the cattle that were on it.

[Enthusiast]

29. I didn't listen to the rightie® explanation on RW radio.

But it was entirely predictable.

[Zorra]

24. Cattle should not be allowed on any federal land, ever, for any reason.

They are a destructive nuisance and everything about them is bad for our environment. I've lived in the west all my life and have seen firsthand how cattle pick the ground clean of vegetation and tear up the topsoil while they're at it, turning BLM land into a wasteland. After the cattle are done ruining the land and move on, nasty, useless invasive species which are almost impossible to control and eradicate, such as knapweed and Canada Thistle, take the land over and turn it into habitat that has very little value for sustaining indigenous wildlife.

I would love it if this incident in Nevada ends federal land welfare for cattle ranchers forever. One of the main reasons I am a vegetarian is repeatedly witnessing of the mass destruction of beautiful wild lands in the west from over grazing.

[link: http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/fo/bishop/biological_resources/weeds/plants/spotted_knapweed.html|Spotted Knapweed]

Introduced from Eurasia as a contaminant of alfalfa and clover seed, spotted knapweed is an invasive weed displacing desired species and diverse plant communities. This species and other knapweeds readily establish themselves in disturbed soil. Their early spring growth makes them competitive for soil moisture and nutrients. The seed is readily dispersed by vehicles, by the sale of dried specimens for floral arrangements and movement of contaminated sand and gravel. There is also some evidence that knapweeds release chemical substances which inhibit germination and growth of surrounding vegetation.

Russian Knapweed

Widely established in the western United States, Russian knapweed colonizes cultivated fields, orchards, pastures, roadsides, and wildlands. Propagated by seeds, this weed also forms dense colonies by adventitious shoots from widely spreading black roots. Cultivation, moving infested soils and taking contaminated equipment from place to place spreads this weed. Roots may grow deeply in certain soils.

Canada Thistle

Canada thistle is an introduced Eurasian species. It inhabits well-drained, light-textured soils along roadsides, in wildlands, grain fields and pastures. It becomes established most easily in disturbed soils and is very difficult to control once it becomes established.

[handmade34]

28. an excellent read

and btw wildlife is important...

http://lasvegassun.com/news/2014/apr/06/rancher-land-dispute-bully-not-hero/

"...What Bundy is doing is a criminal act, and he should be accountable for his actions rather than be held up as a hero fighting the federal government.

Most of the grazing permit holders on public land are good stewards and law-abiding citizens, and Bundy is doing them a disservice with his actions. He is a perfect example of someone who publicly states that he abhors the federal government but who relies on it for his welfare.

He is grazing free on the public’s land to the detriment of the environment and the honest taxpayers who support his welfare lifestyle. What if other people decide that they are also going to do whatever they want on federal land regardless of the law and stake claims to that right? A civil society has to have some rules and laws or we would have total chaos..."

[WMDemocract]

31. So many aspects to this issue

-There's:
-The fact that the rancher didn't pay his fees for 2 decades
-The "tortoises"
-The State's rights debate

It goes on and on. But's seeing more sites pop up. Hopefully Snopes will have something soon.

Cliven Bundy’s Cattle and the “Federal Land Grab”