General Correction: Snowden did not choose to be in Russia.

[JackRiddler]

Snowden attempted to transit through Russia on his way from Hong Kong to South America, where at least Ecuador offered him asylum. Taking a flight through Russia was the only way to avoid countries that would turn him over directly to the U.S., which has issued a wanted person notice. Nevertheless, he was held up in Russia because the U.S. revoked his passport. The Russian government refused to extradite him to the U.S., but also refused to let him continue to South America. So he accepted their offer of asylum, which was the only alternative to whatever solitary hole the U.S. government has waiting to hold him -- probably for a couple of years before trial, given other "espionage" law precedents. Effectively he's a hostage with no choice in the matter. It may well be that he is under pressures from the Russian government, who still have the power to turn him over to the U.S. He's certainly not in a good position to criticize the Russian government, whatever he may think of it. Despite these well-known and well-reported facts, many who have persistently distorted all of the facts of the Snowden saga think nothing of making him out to be a friend to the Russian government, or even a Russian spy.

[Tarheel_Dem]

1. Shouldn't that be followed by "AFAIK"? You don't know if it was accident or not.

[SolutionisSolidarity]

3. Was the US government involved in this conspiracy?

They were the ones who pulled his passport. Are you trying to claim Obama is some kind of Putin-lover?

[Tarheel_Dem]

4. As has been pointed out, Snowie went missing a few days before he "surfaced" in Russia.

[JackRiddler]

5. As opposed to you, who already knows...

that he's a Russian spy, as you're posting on every thread about the matter, despite the total lack of evidence for it and even though the idea started with Sen. Mike Rogers (R-Rabid).

[Tarheel_Dem]

10. !!!

[JackRiddler]

11. Thanks, Sen. McCarthy.

[Tarheel_Dem]

34. You're welcome. Anytime!

[JackRiddler]

49. McCarthy was an orator.

Luckily the weakness of his modern analogues is that they cannot speak, but yet grunt in electronic animations they fashion to be clever.

[Tarheel_Dem]

58. Here's some more "electronic animation" for ya!

[Number23]

84. Well there's somebody who appears to be 100% convinced that Snowden was a Russian spy

And his name is Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin

Putin, a former KGB agent, set the tone by treating Snowden as something like an equal.

"Mr. Snowden, you are a former agent, a spy. I used to be working for an intelligence service," he said, according to RT's on-air translator. "We are going to talk one professional language." http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/ed-snowden-asks-putin-about-russian-surveillance

Now, ain't THAT some shit?

[flamingdem]

110. my, my

takes one to know one

[Tarheel_Dem]

120. And who's in a better position to know Snowden's professional status than Vlad the Impaler?

I'm still convinced that Snowie didn't wind up in Russia by accident.

[karynnj]

128. Wouldn't a more likely translation be that he was saying that Snowden, working for the

CIA or NSA (directly or indirectly) had been an American spy before he decided to be a whistleblower?

[TroglodyteScholar]

133. But that doesn't support the outlandish claims being made..

Even if it does make a lot more sense.

[Puglover]

142. Of course that is what he meant.

NBC played it last night, it was obvious.

But God forbid folks that consider Snowden the anti Christ let accuracy get in the way of their never ending hyperbolic bullshit.

[Number23]

150. That's entirely possible. But given the nature of what I've read about Snowden's position with the

NSA, I'm not sure how anyone can conclude that a "system administrator" was a spy. Unless that's exactly what he was.

Edit: Hawaii is at the end of a long, long tagline with Washington and it's not necessarily always up to date on the latest procedures and things that should be gotten from Washington. Further, if there's ever any type of disconnect between Fort Meade and Hawaii — technically or communications-wise — Fort Meade, the headquarters of the NSA, was very concerned that somehow they would not be able to reach Hawaii: literally [would be unable to] communicate with them in the event of, I don't know, a nuclear problem or an earthquake or something.

What Snowden was doing was downloading and copying and backing up hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of pages of documents to make sure Hawaii had it all in case something went wrong. ... What no one realized at the time, of course, is that he was also making copies for his own reasons. http://www.npr.org/2014/04/16/303733011/edward-snowden-from-geeky-drop-out-to-nsa-leaker

Nothing about that or anything else I've read about Snowden's NSA position reads spy to me. Making Putin's statement all the more extraordinary.

[karynnj]

152. You are working too hard to parse this

As an IT person for the NSA, he was abetting their spying via the data collection.

[Number23]

154. See my edit. Nothing I've read about Snowden's NSA position has ever even come close to equalling

spy. Putin's terminology is quite interesting to say the very least.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

143. Not sure if you were aware, but Edward Snowden was in the (mostly subcontracted) employ of the NSA.

The NSA spies on people. It's what they do. It's caused some real problems that have been in the news, owing to the fact that a latter-day spy came in from the cold.

[840high]

20. ...^ that

[Rockyj]

141. I am so sick of people falling for the character assasination of Edward Snowden& propaganda that's

being put out there by our own government and even progressive liberals!

http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/200537/thank-god-we-cleared-up-that-discrepancy-in-edward-snowdens-salary/

http://www.workplacebullying.org/tag/character-assassination/

[grasswire]

151. the critics are outliers

Go over to The Guardian's comments section and read the 800 responses to Snowden today. Many people who are not in thrall to the surveillance state are expressing their thoughtful feelings to him there.

[sabrina 1]

44. No, it shouldn't. It is a fact which apparently is known to the OP. The US Govt forced Snowden

to remain in Russia, something a whole lot of people have been wondering about. Why did they do that?

[Tarheel_Dem]

55. Yup. And "50 million US households now watch RTTV".....

[sabrina 1]

60. Wrong, it's more than that now! That was years ago. Try to keep up!

[Tarheel_Dem]

63. Link?

[arely staircase]

67. she's right

I think it is more like 947 trillion american households watch RT.

[Tarheel_Dem]

72. I, and many others, have been waiting for a link since she made that ludicrous claim.

But since we're making up facts, "947 trillion" makes just as much sense.

[arely staircase]

75. she won't give you a link, for obvious reasons

She is more likely to start using my 947 trillion number because she read it somewhere on the internet.

[Tarheel_Dem]

78. Ding! Ding! Ding!

She offered a wiki entry, from 2005, that spoke to RT's "availability" in US households. Somehow, she managed to conflate that with viewership. If that number were true, they'd beat out all of cable news combined.

[flamingdem]

112. Some people confuse RT with

TZM initials being easy to confuse n all.

[Tarheel_Dem]

122. !!!

[flamingdem]

126. tee hee TMZ not TZM I mean

thus proving my point

[stevenleser]

89. You are conflating the amount of people who have the channel on their cable box with the amount who

watch.

Most Americans have hundreds of channels on their boxes that they never watch. I would love it if 50 million or even 5 million or even 1 million had watched the Crosstalk shows I was on. RT viewership of a given show is less than 50,000-75,000 here in the US.

[theboss]

127. Because he is a traitor and then wanted to stop him from moving to someplace else?

Just a thought.

[sabrina 1]

129. A traitor? Could you post some confirmation of that claim? A link to a conviction

would be helpful.

I ask because the internet is infamous for people who have zero knowledge of facts flinging POO around. DU used to be known as a forum that had standards which did a pretty good job of challenging hyperbole and presenting facts.

Iow, if you make a claim here, people will ask for facts, which is what I am asking for.

Calling someone a traitor is a serious charge and requires some serious proof.

So explain that comment please. With some backing for the claim.

[theboss]

137. I didn't realize this was a court of law

He leaked classified intelligence data and fled the country. That's pretty much being a traitor.

Now, whether his actions are good for the country long term is a matter of debate. But...yea....traitor.

[sabrina 1]

138. So he's not a traitor, that was just 'poo flinging'. Thank you, that clears things up.

'I didn't realize this was a court of law'.

Neither did I, I thought it was a Democratic Forum where, unlike Right Wing forums, people LEARNED, as I have, FACTS. If we wanted to engage in poo flinging rather than intelligent conversation, trust me, the internet if filled with places where we could do that. Clearly people have chosen 'intelligent' conversation over 'poo flinging' by coming HERE instead.

And now that you do think it is a 'court of law', or was that more hyperbole? So to follow your logic, I didn't know you were a Judge and Jury, and apparently Prosecutor:

But...yea....traitor.

Well, the defense counsel takes issue with your honor's decision and wants to point out to the 'court' that the defendant has never even been charged with that particular crime. Therefore the defense calls for a mistrial, thank you very much your honor'

Try to stick to the facts, your opinion does not equal facts.

[theboss]

139. Fact: She stole and disseminated classified data

Fact: He fled the country
Fact: He now appears to be working as a stooge for a foreign government

Do we agree?

[sabrina 1]

140. Uh, no we don't. First Snowden is a HE not a SHE.

It would be hard for anyone to agree with that 'FACT'.

FACT: He left the country to go to South America.
FACT: The US Government asked the Hong Kong Govt, a stopover on his way to South America, to hand him over.

Hong Kong REFUSED.

FACT: The US GOVT rescinded his passport making it impossible for him to continue on his journey after his flight stopover in Russia. Why did the US Govt force him to remain in Russia?

Hey, since we're flinging poo around, maybe he's a spy for the US? Mabye that's why they forced him into Russia?? Yay, another unsubstantiated 'fact'. I'm sure the thought has occurred to the Russians though! Lol!

As for: 'he now appears to be working as a stooge for a foreign government'.

OR maybe he's working as a SPY for the US in Russia?

See how speculation works? ANYONE can come up with 'opinions'. I like my opinion better than yours btw.

BUT then there are those inconvenient facts which don't gel with either your speculation OR mine.

So, no, I do not agree with you, or even with ME.

I have to go with the FACTS we know. He's a Whistle Blower who like all Whistle Blowers now in this country has to leave the country due to the current atmosphere for Whistle Blowers here, see Chelsea Manning, tortured, kept in isolation, silenced for years, and then thrown in jail for 35 years while the war criminals she exposed, walk free.

THOSE are the known facts for now. Unless Snowden is a US Spy they cleverly got into Russia pretending he was 'fleeling' from the US. That would be rather clever I have to admit. Lol, but there is not a shred of evidence to back it up.

[HipChick]

2. Alex....For $500...

I'll take Russian spy...

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

26. Snowden was probably moved by Putin's actions in this story

http://cheezburger.com/5150499072

[rhett o rick]

6. This ruins a perfectly good hate meme. nm

[Electric Monk]

8. I'm pretty sure that was the point :)

k&r

[sabrina 1]

48. The facts of this certainly ruined Republican Rep Rogers when he tried to push the lie that Snowden

went to Russia of his own accord. The media, in a rare show of near journalism, asked him for some proof of his implications after which he went silent.

Too bad they also didn't point out that it was the US Govt who forced Snowden to remain in Russia. But this fact is extremely important considering the attempts, even here on DU btw, to spread the lie that he intended to go to Russia.

The more often the truth is told, the harder it is for the smear campaigners to spread their lies.

[Cha]

64. Snowden's no "hero"..

More Snowden leaks - and this time Al Qaeda is the surveillance target (+video)

".. But what caught my eye in one of the unredacted slides was the mention of Al Qaeda in Iraq being a particular target of the NSA's efforts. The slide reads: "Visual Communicator – Free application that combines Instant Messaging, Photo-Messaging, and Push2Talk capabilities on a mobile platform. VC used on GPRS or 3G networks." The next five words were what the Times tried and failed to redact: "heavily used in AQI Mosul Network."

The aim as described in the documents is to target mobile phone apps that can give away a target's physical location. The utility of this in tracking terrorists hardly needs to be stated. The document describes a program focusing on clear security interests – Al Qaeda in Iraq, now calling itself Al Qaeda in Iraq and the Levant (ISIS) – killed thousands in Iraq during the US-led war there and continues to carry out suicide bombings and attacks on civilians there on a weekly basis. ISIS is also deeply involved in the civil war in Syria, and the groups ties to Al Qaeda make it an obvious security concern for the US.."

snip//

"..But his claim that "none of this has anything to do with terrorism" is not reasonable. That's pure nonsense -- as is his attempt to suggest that any revelations of eavesdropping techniques can't do any harm because terrorists already know all about it. Terrorists may know that the US is trying to spy on them as best it can (just as Germany and France know that). But knowing the precise method is another thing altogether."

MOre..
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Security-Watch/Backchannels/2014/0130/More-Snowden-leaks-and-this-time-Al-Qaeda-is-the-surveillance-target-video

[AgingAmerican]

109. lol@Terrorists

The Quaedas! Better start invading oil countries again!

[progressoid]

134. Yeah, think of all the terrorist attacks that he has enabled since the leaks

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[djean111]

7. Dude - don't you know that Snowden being a Russian spy is the ONE AND ONLY conspiracy

theory that some DUers can totally get behind? The ONLY one! SDS!!!! It is kinda cute and funny, really.

[arely staircase]

40. I know it is crazy

to think the guy who stole a bunch of US secrets and is now doing Russian propaganda is some kind of Russian spy. Crazy I tell you.

[JackRiddler]

50. "US secrets" - oh my stars!

Just whom were they secret from? You only get one guess. But I give you a hint: Not the Russians.

[sabrina 1]

52. Of course it's crazy, which is why the only morons who have tried, and failed, to spread that lie

are people like Repulican Rep. Rogers and of course the crazies over at Faux who at least won the RIGHT TO LIE in court.

Did you notice how quickly Rep Rogers disappeared after the media asked him for something prove his sly implications? We haven't heard from him since and neither have they.

But you are correct, is is a crazy lie told by right wing crazy people like Rogers. I hear Rogers is planning on retiring which is a great piece of news for the country.

[arely staircase]

54. yeah he's the only one. every one else loves Snowden. nt

[sabrina 1]

62. Uh, no, I already said he's not the only one. The far right almost unanimously want to believe.

he's a 'commie spy' despite all the evidence against it. But the far right has never been known to worry about facts as everyone knows.

I'm sure there are people who love Snowden, no doubt his family and friends but I personally don't know anyone who loves him, I don't know anyone who even knows him. Perhaps you do?

I do know from polls taken, awards given, because of what he did for the people of this country, that a majority of people are grateful to him as is usually the case wrt to Whistle Blowers who reveal information that is of vital interest to the people.

[sabrina 1]

174. How about he 'might be a US Spy that the US managed to force into Russia so he could

spy on THEM?' I mean the US Govt DID force him into Russia which makes no sense at all, unless he's really a US SPY?



We can all make stuff up can't we?

Do you have a shred of proof for that CT? Do I for mine? No, but apparently that doesn't stop people from making stuff up.

[arely staircase]

176. what I posted is not a CT

It is called current events.

[scarletwoman]

9. Thank you. Just want you to know that I appreciate your OP.

Figured I'd get a supportive word in, before this thread devolves into a mass of Heathers screeching "Putin Apologist" and suchlike.

[Mojorabbit]

36. Looks like the bat signal went out. They are here en masse. nt

[JackRiddler]

51. Glad I hit a nerve.

[Blue_Tires]

12. So that friendly meeting at the Russian consulate in Hong Kong never happened?

And Snowden can't apply for Russian citizenship and fly on a Russian passport?

If you want to make the case that Snowden had the metaphorical gun to his head and was strongly encouraged to make the appearance at Putin's presser, that's one thing...But there's no conceivable way that today's stunt can be spun as something positive, despite Snowden's friends and followers bending over backwards and busting their keyboards in trying to do so...And there's no way to justify or explain his participation, other than the 'gun to the head' scenario...

[JackRiddler]

18. Would you expect him to travel through Russia...

Last edited Fri Apr 18, 2014, 12:19 AM - Edit history (1)

given his risks, given he was already a global household name, without speaking first to the Russian diplomatic mission?

Compared to all of the risks of trying to sneak through as a regular passenger?

[Blue_Tires]

24. To be honest, I'd have expected him to already be where he wanted to defect to

Last edited Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:50 PM - Edit history (3)

before contacting the guardian and outing himself...

If that wasn't possible, or if Hong Kong was his #1 choice, I'd have expected him to have a few primary and a few more alternate "escape routes" pre-planned from Hong Kong in case things got hairy...I just don't understand how he had a plan so intricate and complex (a year in the making at the minimum, since he started hacking servers in Spring 2012, if not earlier) to lift the files with nobody getting wise while at the same time having a "meh, I'll figure it out along the way...It'll work out somehow" -attitude to his asylum plans....IIRC, he also grossly underestimated how harsh the early reaction from Washington would be...Not only was he indignant, he was downright *shocked* that the U.S. would flag his passport...Evidently he was pennywise on how intelligence services actually operate...

And if life in Moscow is that unbearably unpleasant, he can stroll to the nearest U.S. embassy anytime and deal with reality back home...And if things are really that bad he should have been sending S.O.S. messages to anyone in the world since all of his communications are heavily encrypted...I don't seem to remember too many complaints about how dire his situation is back when he was getting the rock star treatment...

[jeff47]

35. I think he was. I also think he wasn't smart enough

to properly research it first. From the reporting at the time, it appeared he did not realize Hong Kong would happily ship him to the US.

[WillyT]

13. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[ProSense]

14. Putin Admits Early Snowden Contact

Putin Admits Early Snowden Contact

MOSCOW—President Vladimir Putin conceded that Edward Snowden contacted Russian diplomats in Hong Kong a few days before boarding a plane to Moscow, but said that no agreement was reached to shelter him and that the former U.S. National Security Agency contractor decided on his own to come to Russia.

Mr. Putin had previously said that Mr. Snowden's arrival at Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport on June 23 was a "complete surprise."

But in an interview with Russia's Channel One and the Associated Press, released on Wednesday, he acknowledged that he had some prior knowledge that the fugitive might be headed Russia's way.

"Mr. Snowden first appeared in Hong Kong and met with our diplomatic representatives," Mr. Putin said. "It was reported to me that there was such an employee, an employee of the security services. I asked, 'What does he want?' He fights for human rights, for freedom of information and challenges violations of human rights and violations of the law in the United States. I said, 'So what?' "

- more -

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323623304579054890606102138

From Twitter: @wikileaks FLASH: WikiLeaks has assisted Mr. Snowden's political asylum
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023072641

Fidel Castro angry at accusations that Cuba snubbed Edward Snowden
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/28/fidel-castro-edward-snowden-cuba-us

Still, Snowden made a fool of himself today by playing Putin's tool.

Putin Tells NSA Leaker Snowden There’s No Mass Surveillance In Russia (updated)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024833461

[Cha]

17. Let them stick to their little bullshit meme.. snowden fans need something to cling to

at this point.

"... These nations, including Russia, Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, and Ecuador have my gratitude and respect for being the first to stand against human rights violations carried out by the powerful rather than the powerless. By refusing to compromise their principles in the face of intimidation, they have earned the respect of the world. It is my intention to travel to each of these countries to extend my personal thanks to their people and leaders.

http://wikileaks.org/Statement-by-Edward-Snowden-to.html

Snowden's such a tool.

[JackRiddler]

39. Excellent documentation.

Your cold warrior's heart is true, and thus you report what he said as he said it. Kudos to you. Notwithstanding your superfluous commentary.

[BlueCaliDem]

29. Ah...those, for Snowden-fans, inconvenient truths...OR...

Obama sent his propaganda masters out to discredit poor Snowden and those reports are all FAKE! They're FAKE, I tell ya!

It's no wonder you're not getting any flack from the Liberaltarians infesting Democratic Underground. They either believe those reports were planted by the CIA, FBI, NSA, WH, or some very savvy DUers who haven't fallen for Snowden's "patriot" bull OR they damn well know about those reports but would rather play the fool.

[Blue_Tires]

125. Some more good ones:

https://www.nsfwcorp.com/dispatch/the-prismer-s-dilemma/
https://www.nsfwcorp.com/dispatch/it-s-you-eddie/
http://20committee.com/2013/11/23/on-snowden-and-coincidences/
https://medium.com/war-is-boring/b876a8bc035a
http://20committee.com/2013/11/05/russian-intelligence-is-behind-the-snowden-show-german-intelligence/
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/11/21/mystery-surroundssnowdenssecretmoscowlife.html

[Egnever]

15. except he did

http://www.businessinsider.com/snowden-spoke-with-russia-in-hong-kong-2013-8

[Whisp]

16. Snowden needs a map then. With a beefy compass.

[stevenleser]

19. Don't you love the "he didn't have a choice!!!111!11!" routine? Of course he had a choice.

And he chose Russia.

[brush]

53. He also chose to leak the info the way he did — publically

"I heard yesterday on the progressive satellite radio channel that Snowden, once he had fled to Asia, was strongly advised against taking the public route he took — meaning he didn't have to give up his whole life to leak the NSA info, that there were other ways to do it. He insisted though that he wanted it known that he was the one doing the leaking.

There has to be a psychiatric term for the extreme naivete combined with extreme narcissism that is being exhibited here."

The above is from a post of mine from another "Snowden making a fool of himself" thread. I don't think he even knows how bad that obviously staged Q&A with Putin looks from afar. I think his self-importance is clouding his judgment.

[Capt. Obvious]

96. Perhaps you have a map you can share?

[840high]

21. k/r

[randome]

22. So you're saying Russia has made him a prisoner?

Not really sure what that adds to the ongoing saga.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[joshcryer]

82. This goes without saying, but the OP won't say it.

Russia could easily send him to Venezuela, Nicaragua or Bolivia, all states who have given him asylum. The passport thing is a copout. If Snowden asks to go somewhere else though Russia would take it as an insult, almost certainly.

"You reject our gracious hospitality?"

[randome]

104. I need to add this to my list.

There is a reason China didn't want him.
There is a reason the Wikileaks attorneys walked away.
There is a reason Russia won't let him leave.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[ljm2002]

165. So you are claiming that Snowden can exit Russia...

...anytime he wants to, with or without his passport? Because Russia doesn't care about his passport anyway? But what Russia thinks of his passport or lack of same, is not really this issue.

Do you by any chance recall when President Evo Morales of Bolivia flew out of Russia, and our government saw to it that his plane was grounded, thinking Edward Snowden was aboard? It was a rather significant international incident -- unprecedented in my lifetime. Usually, countries abide by international laws concerning diplomatic protocols, but not in this case.

It isn't Russia who is forcing him to stay there, it is the US.

[ProSense]

23. "He's certainly not in a good position to criticize the Russian government..."

"He's certainly not in a good position to criticize the Russian government, whatever he may think of it. Despite these well-known and well-reported facts, many who have persistently distorted all of the facts of the Snowden saga think nothing of making him out to be a friend to the Russian government, or even a Russian spy."

Maybe this was also coerced:

Yet even in the face of this historically disproportionate aggression, countries around the world have offered support and asylum. These nations, including Russia, Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, and Ecuador have my gratitude and respect for being the first to stand against human rights violations carried out by the powerful rather than the powerless. By refusing to compromise their principles in the face of intimidation, they have earned the respect of the world. It is my intention to travel to each of these countries to extend my personal thanks to their people and leaders.

http://wikileaks.org/Statement-by-Edward-Snowden-to.html

I think it was clear to many people that, despite that nonsense, Snowden wasn't going to enjoy life in Russia.

How the Snowden Affair Became a Freak Show
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023235597

[JackRiddler]

41. Excellent quoting there...

good work!

[bobduca]

25. K&R

[liberal N proud]

27. LOL

[Historic NY]

28. He must be getting use to the food by now.

[BeyondGeography]

30. IOW, Snowden tore his life apart without a plan

Which was pretty apparent from the start. It's the main reason why I've always been unable to take him seriously.

[JackRiddler]

42. Do you take veterans seriously?

I hope so! They gave to their country!

[BeyondGeography]

85. Has a veteran ever wound up in Russia because he feared losing Internet access?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/edward-snowden-still-on-the-run/article12773353/

[flamingdem]

114. I forgot about that statement

it shows how naive he is .. geesh

[sabrina 1]

69. Heroes generally do tear their own lives apart for the benefit of others. I'm not sure we here in

this country are worth the sacrifices made on our behalf though. That is probably what I would have told him had I known him and what the sacrifices he was to make. After watching so many good people sacrifice their own lives and futures here only to be smeared and attacked while War Criminals, like Condi Rice and Cheney are running around lecturing on Civil Rights eg and receiving huge fees for doing so, the question is, is it worth any sacrifice for such a country. He is a far better person than most of us, that is for sure.

What was apparent from the start was that he knew what he would be facing in a country that moves on from war crimes, and jailed those who expose them, see Chelsea Manning. He knew he could not remain in such a country once he exposed the crimes they have been getting away with. Definitely planned better than other Whistle Blowers, Drake, whose own life and career were destroyed. He knew this was no longer a country where Whistle Blowers would be protected as we claim to do.

I was impressed with the awareness he had of what happens to Whistle Blowers here and planned for it, also chose to reveal who he was rather than let them try to figure it out.

[JackRiddler]

144. He should have thought of maintaining

his comfortable existence. It's the morally superior thing to do, in capitalist morality.

[sabrina 1]

146. Yes, this country, imho, doesn't deserve people like him or Greenwald or anyone else who has

tried to stand up for our Constitutional Rights. We seem to not want them anyhow, see some of the defenses right here on DU for the violations of our rights, and this is supposed a place where the more 'informed' people go.

But I am grateful to people like him who keep trying. I respect their courage and apparent belief that things CAN get better. I hope he is right, I don't see much evidence any more. Before 2008 I did, and I know that if he had appeared in 2007 everyone on 'our side' would be calling him a 'hero'. The hypocrisy that has been revealed is simply stunning and leads me to wonder about all the 'outrage' we saw from the Left over Bush was actually sincere at all.

[Igel]

31. Sure he did.

He had a choice. Just because it's not a very pleasant choice doesn't mean it's not a choice.

At the very least, he had the option of US vs Russia. He chose Russia--unless we want to claim that he was held under house arrest until he was forcibly removed to someplace else.

Another might have made another choice. He made his, which, arguably, was the kind of choice he should have expected to be reduced to.

[JackRiddler]

43. Yes, you would have chosen the Hole over Moscow?

Why can't I believe it?!

[Maedhros]

47. American Prison vs. Russia.

Yeah. Tough choice.

[ljm2002]

166. No, he did not choose Russia...

...he chose Ecuador. But after Evo Morales' plane was grounded after leaving Russia, in a major diplomatic incident, it became quite apparent that was not going to be possible. It has nothing to do with being held under house arrest: the US has made sure it will be difficult if not impossible for him to leave Russia.

Obviously you and I see the Snowden affair differently, and I can accept that. But if you don't like what he did, you should make your argument honestly, rather than twisting the facts and attempting to create a false narrative.

[stone space]

32. Good thing Snowden didn't hitch a ride with the President of Bolivia.

Hitching a ride with the first indigenous President of a South American Nation would have been a huge miscalculation of global power relations on his part.

[BklnDem75]

33. What was he waiting for?

He flew to Hong Kong and released documents in May 2013. The Guardian report and charges of espionage came in June 2013. Why didn't he just go to Ecuador straight from Hawaii? Why didn't he leave Hong Kong before his info was revealed? It's not like the dogs were on him before that information became public.

[JackRiddler]

45. Nonsense. Ecuador...

wouldn't have even known his name before the first revelations. He couldn't negotiate with any of these governments before starting, because he understood what he was doing (and that the USG would focus on it with all of its surveillance and potentials) and that publicity was his only protection. He can't start talking to multiple embassies before he goes to Hong Kong and dumps the lot! In that case, we maybe still wouldn't have heard of him.

[arely staircase]

37. so who made him go to China?

Why not just hop a plane to Caracas?

[pnwmom]

38. How do you know he didn't plan that path from the beginning? If he had, it wouldn't

have been in his interest or Russia's to be obvious that he'd been spying for them all along.

[JackRiddler]

46. O mi gahd!

Conspiracy theories!

How do you know you're not a brain in a vat?

[pnwmom]

65. Right. And Russia has never manipulated Americans into spying. n/t

[joshcryer]

83. Why the insults?

That's fucked up.

[stevenleser]

90. Because OP knows the facts don't back up their memes. No one forced Snowden to do anything up

to the point where he landed in Moscow and put himself in Putin's hands. No one knows after that but it is all his own choices that landed him there.

[ljm2002]

167. Russia was to have been a stopover...

...on the way to South America, and you know that. It is dishonest to say that he "put himself in Putin's hands". That was not his intent, and you know that. You are the one twisting facts to support your preferred narrative.

[arely staircase]

177. so who made him go to china? nt

[ljm2002]

183. Non-responsive. n/t

[arely staircase]

185. it is quite relevant to your post.

You claim it is unfair to criticize him for being in an authoritarian country because he suppos edly never intended to stay in said authiritarian regime, that it was meant simply to be a natural stopover between china and south america. Problm is that conveniently leaves out the fact that his first choice was another authoritarian country. That is unless you believe China is a natural layover between Hawaii and South America. One must also wonder why he was hanging out in the russian embassy while in china.

[AgingAmerican]

113. Didn't you know?

The movie, "The Matrix," is based on a true story.

[AgingAmerican]

111. That's Hannity level material

Seriously?

[struggle4progress]

56. Strictly speaking, a passport is not required for international travel:

... "It's really up to the receiving country whether they wish to accept someone into their country without a passport," says Lavinia Limon, president and chief executive officer of the US Committee for Refugees and Immigrants ...
Who, what, why: When can you legally travel without a passport?
BBC News Magazine, Washington
28 June 2013 Last updated at 05:06 ET
By Tom Geoghegan

Transportation companies often demand it, since if they bring a passenger who is refused entry, they may be held responsible for returning that person to the arriving flight's point of origin. As charges against Snowden were public knowledge while he was still Hong Kong, it is most likely that his passport was revoked under existing federal regulation in the days before he boarded the Aeroflot flight. IIRC the Russian government still has majority ownership in Aeroflot, and therefore official state assurances could easily be communicated to Aeroflot that the government would not hold the company responsible for returning Snowden to Hong Kong

[sabrina 1]

66. Hong Kong had refused to turn him over to the US but made no offer to allow him to remain in Hong

Hong. They had already angered the US by refusing their request to detain him there until he could be picked up by US authorities. All that speculation is simply that, speculation. He was allowed to continue on his to South America by the Hong Kong authorities, but his passport was rescinded by the US Govt before he landed in Russia where he was unable to board his flight to continue on his way. Requests were made again by the US Govt to turn him over. He had to retain an attorney in Russia as he was unfamiliar with Russian law in order to try to figure out what to do next.

It is very possible that allowing to go back to Hong Kong was discussed with the authorities there, and very likely that they had done all they intended to do, and did not want to create any more controversy with the US Govt so refused to allow him to return there.

All we know are the FACTS. Which are:

1) It is a lie to say he 'fled to Russia' which I have seen even here on this forum, shamefully. He did not.

2) The Hong Kong Govt refused the US Govt request to turn him over to the US.

3) He was allowed to continue on his way to South America which WAS his intended destination by Hong Kong.

4) The US Govt then rescinded his passport.

5) He was unable to board his next flight out of Russia due to the actions of the US Govt.

Period.

[struggle4progress]

70. You're not making any sense. There's simply no right to travel under the protection of the US

in order to flee justice in the US, any more than there is any right to travel under the protection of any other country in order to flee justice in that country. That fact alone, of course, doesn't itself prevent a country from allowing Snowden to travel there, with or without a US passport, if the country wants to allow Snowden to travel there

Nothing would prevent Russia from allowing Snowden to travel there without a US passport, if Russia decided to do so -- and the sequence of events, together with some press reports, suggest that is exactly what happened. Charges against Snowden became known to the public several days before he went to Russia, and existing regulations in the CFR allow for passport revocation under such circumstances

... Edward Snowden's passport was annulled before he left Hong Kong for Russia and while that could complicate his travel plans, the lack of a passport alone could not thwart his plans, the U.S. official said. If a senior official in another country or with an airline orders it, a country could overlook the withdrawn passport, the official said ...
AP Source: NSA leaker Snowden's passport revoked
Jun. 23, 2013 5:19 PM EDT
By MATTHEW V. LEE

Among the conflicting reports at the time were claims that Snowden had traveled to Russia using an Ecuadorian document: that, of course, would support the view that Snowden's passport was invalidated while he was still in Hong Kong

In any case, the point should be clear: any country could agree to let Snowden travel there if they so liked, whether or not he held a valid US passport

[sabrina 1]

76. He was not fleeing 'justice' he was fleeing INJUSTICE. See the US record on the

treatment of Whistle Blowers which is shameful and violates human rights. He had every right to flee from what the world witnessed regarding Manning, tortured, isolated, silenced and throw in jail for 35 years while the war crimes he exposed were never even investigated. That is a horror story that should never occur in a civilized nation.

Second, the US does not control the world. Hong Kong apparently sympathized with Snowden's situation, understanding what he would face here if they were to faciliate his return. As a civilized nation, they refused.

Third, while Russia too refused to return him, who would at this point, other our Imperial allies in Europe, they clearly did not want to go any further by helping him 'escape' and chose instead to provide him some time during which he and his government might come to some agreement on his treatment should he return here.

America has to get used to the idea that we don't dictate to other countries on their decisions which are made, as we claim ours are, in their own best interests.

Once the US Govt rescinded his passport, he was trapped in Russia. Also, it is very likely that Ecuador would not accept someone without a passport.

The actions of the US Govt are totally responsible for the fact that Snowden ended up, temporarily, in Russia.

He did not flee to Russia, that is a lie. He did not want to be in Russia, that too is a lie. He is there due to the actions of the US Govt. There is no way around that.

[sabrina 1]

76. He was not fleeing 'justice' he was fleeing INJUSTICE. See the US record on the

treatment of Whistle Blowers which is shameful and violates human rights. He had every right to flee from what the world witnessed regarding Manning, tortured, isolated, silenced and throw in jail for 35 years while the war crimes he exposed were never even investigated. That is a horror story that should never occur in a civilized nation.

Second, the US does not control the world. Hong Kong apparently sympathized with Snowden's situation, understanding what he would face here if they were to faciliate his return. As a civilized nation, they refused.

Third, while Russia too refused to return him, who would at this point, other our Imperial allies in Europe, they clearly did not want to go any further by helping him 'escape' and chose instead to provide him some time during which he and his government might come to some agreement on his treatment should he return here.

America has to get used to the idea that we don't dictate to other countries on their decisions which are made, as we claim ours are, in their own best interests.

Once the US Govt rescinded his passport, he was trapped in Russia. Also, it is very likely that Ecuador would not accept someone without a passport.

The actions of the US Govt are totally responsible for the fact that Snowden ended up, temporarily, in Russia.

He did not flee to Russia, that is a lie. He did not want to be in Russia, that too is a lie. He is there due to the actions of the US Govt. There is no way around that.

[ljm2002]

169. Thank you for your continued efforts on this issue...

...it is almost a full-time job to counteract the falsehoods that are presented here as a matter of routine.

[treestar]

100. Now now SFP

You are not understanding. Eddie and Julian are whistleblowers. This means they are above the law!

[joshcryer]

81. Hong Kong was the mistake. Not Russia.

Russia was the one helping him along, but they couldn't have done that if they didn't get him trapped in Hong Kong.

[struggle4progress]

87. He's made multiple mistakes, many of which seem to flow from his libertarian tendencies,

which apparently convinced him that he could simply ignore political considerations and would have success playing The Lone Ranger, a ploy which often goes awry. He's evidently a bright young man, and he may indeed find himself smarter than many people he's met -- but that experience seems to have prevented him from seeking advice from others, more experienced than himself, leading him instead into a solipsistic idealism. Greenwald, who himself suffers from some similar character disorder, reported Snowden had originally intended to release a unabomber-ish manifesto in Hong Kong, which Greenwald claims to have dissuaded him from publishing, on the grounds it would be misunderstood

There is an old saying, Do a hundred things right and no one will ever notice, but do one thing wrong and no one will ever forget. Snowden's lack of discipline in this matter has perhaps led to the even more complicated situation: he may have done one thing right and a hundred things wrong

[ljm2002]

168. The passport is not the main issue...

...since the US government has already demonstrated that it will go to great lengths to make sure Snowden is unable to fly out of Russia, with or without a passport.

[lostincalifornia]

57. Perhaps, but one thing for certain if that was so he would have gone to the country that he wanted

before releasing the information, instead of releasing it before he was in the destination he desired

Either he is naive, didn't think through the entire situation, or he wanted to go to Russia all along

[Vashta Nerada]

59. Ha.

Some here will rewrite history to your OP.

[JackRiddler]

61. History was already written.

History is always written.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

68. Simple solution. Give him back his passport and let him go where he pleases.

If he chooses to stay in Russia, then the "traitor" shouters might have a case.

[JackRiddler]

71. Propose it to the State Department.

[pnwmom]

148. He doesn't need a passport to enter any country that is willing to take him.

They could accept him without a passport just as we've accepted refugees ourselves.

[struggle4progress]

74. The US has not seized his passport: presumably he is still in possession of those papers. The US has

however by now notified a number of countries that his passport has been invalidated. Countries around the world are free to choose to admit Snowden (as Russia did) whether or not he possesses a valid US passport

[99Forever]

95. Oh gee.

That's WAY different!

[JackRiddler]

118. Hey, revocation only counts

if they physically seize it.

Why, they haven't touched a hair on his head, what's the fuss about?

[99Forever]

161. Why do I have about the same amount of ...

... respect for these clowns' "arguments" as I do Teabaggers?

[arely staircase]

79. ironically the only country that would take him is the US. NT

[treestar]

93. Again the rules do no apply to him

So anyone else in the same situation should not have that rule applied to them, either, correct?

[pnwmom]

147. Any of the countries that have offered him asylum could take him without

a passport. It would be up to Russia to let him through its airport, and to the other country to accept him. That's it. Any country could do that, just as we have taken refugees without passports.

[ljm2002]

170. Sure, that would be easy as pie...

...just ask Evo Morales.

[pnwmom]

172. It would be completely up to Russia and Venezuela, or whatever other

country decided to give him refuge. The US couldn't stop him from traveling without a passport.

http://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/1279119/snowden-does-not-need-passport-travel-says-refugee-expert

Edward Snowden can leave Russia for Venezuela with the support of the two nations despite not having a travel document, according to a refugee expert.

Gerry Simpson, a senior refugee researcher with Human Rights Watch, said this as Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro, after receiving an asylum request from Snowden, urged him to decide if he wanted to fly to Caracas.

"The Russian and Venezuelan authorities have the power to allow Snowden to leave Russia and enter Venezuela without any form of travel document," Simpson said.

Once Snowden arrives in a country that has signed the 1951 Refugee Convention - like Venezuela - and claims asylum, the authorities there cannot penalise him

SNIP

[ljm2002]

182. But the US seems to be able...

...to cause other nations to deny fly-over privileges, quite apart from the issue of whether Snowden has a valid passport. As I said, just ask Evo Morales about that.

[pnwmom]

189. And you think that the US spy system in Russia is so amazing

that the Russians couldn't secretly get Snowden on a plane if they wanted to?

[ljm2002]

190. And you think the US government wouldn't try...

...to prevent Snowden from leaving? Even after the Evo Morales incident?

Of course I don't think it's impossible to get him secretly on a plane. I am merely pointing out that the passport is not the only, nor even the most crucial issue.

And BTW I'm pretty sure the US spies on Russia. After the Snowden affair, and with Snowden being in Russia now, I would be very surprised if the US had not increased its efforts to spy in that country. It doesn't mean we'd be successful in preventing Snowden from flying out of there... but it doesn't mean we wouldn't try, either.

With all of the tensions between Russia and the US, I'm guessing that Russia does not want to provoke an international incident directly between the two countries, which is what they would be playing with if they put him on a plane out of the country. Unlike the situation in Ukraine, there is no compelling (to them) national interest involved.

[pnwmom]

191. I think the whole trip to Hong Kong was just a charade

and that he always planned to end up in Russia. He makes a better puppet if the Russians pretend they are just doing him a favor than if people knew Russia was using him -- and continues to use him.

[ljm2002]

192. It's your prerogative to think that, of course...

...but absent any evidence, I'll file that away under "CT".

[pnwmom]

193. I have as much evidence as you do for your theory.

More for mine, actually, since he did end up in Russia and he's now part of their P.R. apparatus.

The difference is in how we interpret the evidence. You believe his words and I look primarily at his actions. I lost any faith in him when he leaked about our spying on the Russians and the Chinese.

[ljm2002]

194. What, exactly, is "my theory"??

We were discussing the logistics of Edward Snowden leaving Russia. You responded with a post saying:

I think the whole trip to Hong Kong was just a charade

and that he always planned to end up in Russia. He makes a better puppet if the Russians pretend they are just doing him a favor than if people knew Russia was using him -- and continues to use him.

and now you claim that is as good a theory as mine, and with more evidence -- since he is, after all, in Russia. So, to spell it out:

(1) Please spell out my "theory" for me, since I don't recall stating one regarding Snowden's motivations

(2) Your claim boils down to: "He MEANT to stay in Russia, because he is still IN Russia"

You continue to ignore the fact that the US has actively taken steps to ensure that he stays in Russia. One could as easily argue that the US wants him to stay there so we can claim he wanted to be a spy for Russia all along. There is at least some evidence to support that theory -- which, BTW, I do not subscribe to either.

[Drunken Irishman]

73. I'm pretty sure he did choose.

[stevenleser]

92. There are five to ten decisions he chose to make that got him where he is. All choices.

People now cannot come back and say he had no choices.

[AgingAmerican]

115. True, he could have kept domestic spying a secret

...then none of this would have happened.

[stevenleser]

124. Some level of domestic spying was known, was it not? I take it you knew about FISA before this?

EFF has a timeline of events regarding surveillance going back years. https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline

Even if we take Snowden's information as true and verified, and I don't concede that, but if for arguments sake we do, it's not as if none of us thought there was anything at all going on with regard to surveillance.

In fact, two weeks before Snowden's leaks, President Obama gave this speech: http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/president-obamas-may-23-speech-on-national-security-as-prepared-for-delivery/2013/05/23/02c35e30-c3b8-11e2-9fe2-6ee52d0eb7c1_story.html which included items like:

Meanwhile, we strengthened our defenses, hardening targets, tightening transportation security, giving law enforcement new tools to prevent terror. Most of these changes were sound. Some caused inconvenience. But some, like expanded surveillance, raised difficult questions about the balance that we strike between our interests in security and our values of privacy. And in some cases, I believe we compromised our basic values -- by using torture to interrogate our enemies, and detaining individuals in a way that ran counter to the rule of law.

So after I took office, we stepped up the war against al-Qaida, but we also sought to change its course.
.
.
.

From our use of drones to the detention of terrorist suspects, the decisions we are making will define the type of nation and world that we leave to our children.

So America is at a crossroads. We must define the nature and scope of this struggle, or else it will define us. We have to be mindful of James Madison’s warning that no nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare. Neither I nor any president can promise the total defeat of terror. We will never erase the evil that lies in the hearts of some human beings nor stamp out every danger to our open society. But what we can do, what we must do, is dismantle networks that pose a direct danger to us and make it less likely for new groups to gain a foothold, all the while maintaining the freedoms and ideals that we defend. And to define that strategy, we must make decisions based not on fear but on hard- earned wisdom. And that begins with understanding the current threat that we face.

so to claim that no conversations and no actions were occurring without Snowden just isnt true.

For Snowden's actions to be justified, three things must be true.

1. Everything he released must be true and correct. We don't know that one way or the other yet.

2. We must be convinced that not enough action and conversation about surveillance was happening without him. I disagree on that point but it is subjective.

3. Assuming #1 above, we must think that there was no legitimate way to raise the issues he had. I know for a fact this is not correct. There were multiple ways to go about this. This is not subjective.

So, it's pretty clear his actions were not justified and those unjustified actions were compounded by bad decisions about what to do once the information was released. Bad choices upon bad choices. Bad decisions upon bad decisions.

[DURHAM D]

179. Hi Steve

I have noticed that you always prefer to argue with facts. If you have not read it yet the May issue (Scarlett Johansson on the cover) of Vanity Fair has a long article on Snowden you may find interesting for background. It was written by Bryan Burrough, Suzanna Andrews and Sarah Ellison.

jftr - From the article... Snowden wants to move to Germany or some other democratic country.

[AgingAmerican]

201. I knew it happened under Bush, yes

But I had assumed that it ended when the Neocons went away. I didn't know it had been escalated.

[stevenleser]

202. FISA has been on the books since Carter. And we don't know one way or the other

We have allegations, that's it.

[joshcryer]

80. I think this is obvious.

But he may well have been coaxed into going there. Hong Kong? Really? South America is smarter. Ecuador already gave Assange asylum (though it is known to wheel and deal if the price is right). Venezuela would have loved to stick it to the US (and he'd be pretty safe there, and no Visa requirement for 90 days, plenty of time to get your stuff in order and get asylum).

Whoever suggested he go to Hong Kong and ditch from there is highly, completely and utterly suspect, and Snowden needs to replay the events and question the trust of those who suggested it. There's no way a smart person would think Hong Kong was a wise destination.

If you are afraid of the US tracking you going to Venezuela, fly into Colombia, then drive over to Venezuela. Again no visa requirement.

[JackRiddler]

97. So much mixing up of reality and your speculation!

But he may well have been coaxed into going there.

Why did you decide there were coaxers? He says, and his actions indicate, that he did it all on his own until he was in HK and started looking for journalists (Your implicit baseless speculation there were coaxers, presumably deriving from what you think might have/should have been, is what people like to call "conspiracy theory.&quot

Hong Kong? Really? South America is smarter.

See, now if he'd only had you as his coaxer. What does it matter? He chose HK and credibly says he thought it the best way to leave Hawaii and disappear acting on his own.

Ecuador already gave Assange asylum (though it is known to wheel and deal if the price is right). Venezuela would have loved to stick it to the US (and he'd be pretty safe there, and no Visa requirement for 90 days, plenty of time to get your stuff in order and get asylum).

Okay, so you would have done it differently!

Whoever suggested he go to Hong Kong

exists for sure only in your speculation

and ditch from there is highly, completely and utterly suspect, and Snowden needs to replay the events and question the trust of those who suggested it.

Your willingness to help him in reassessing his relationship with your imaginary friends is touching.

There's no way a smart person would think Hong Kong was a wise destination.

Such a convoluted way to discredit someone! Just go with the pole-dancing girlfriend, or the garage boxes, it's dumber but easier.

If you are afraid of the US tracking you going to Venezuela, fly into Colombia, then drive over to Venezuela. Again no visa requirement.

Yay! I guess you've now invalidated everything in the files he released? Phew!

[joshcryer]

149. I say there may have been.

If he choose Hong Kong after considering his options it was obviously stupid. My assumption he got caught there by outside manipulators gives him intellectual credit.

[JackRiddler]

155. As if you'd ever contemplate doing anything so courageous.

[joshcryer]

158. You don't know me or my activism.

But you can pretend and make shit personal if it makes you feel any better.

[JackRiddler]

164. I see how you treat this case.

Contempt. No empathy. Talking points. Monday-morning quarterbacking. From the way you talk, it sounds like you would have made all the right moves - i.e., kept the nice Hawaiian job and hope someone else would sacrifice themselves to expose the vast criminality of the surveillance state.

[joshcryer]

173. What contempt?

I think Snowden's moves were incorrect after he got the data, but I have a feeling more is at play here. I am quite concerned that the fallout has been minimal at best. I don't question motivations, I think Snowden has the right intent and a good heart (though I disagree with his statements on corporate datamining).

I could never get a job with the MIC. My background is far too radical.

[whistler162]

86. and in other news the moon is made of cheese!

[SidDithers]

88. Except he did...nt

Sid

[treestar]

91. Yes he did

He had the choice of coming back home and standing for real for what he claims to stand for.

[Capt. Obvious]

94. O/U for :rofl: emoticons on this thread is 27.5

[JackRiddler]

98. What's O/U?

Every is a confirmation to me that the usual gang really don't like it.

[Capt. Obvious]

99. Over/Under - a gambling term

You can bet the number of will either be 28 or greater, or 27 or less.

I wish Elad would enable an emoticon-hide feature.
Posts using it would disappear.

[JackRiddler]

101. Oh of course! Sorry...

I always spell that one out, and like everyone I love to take the over! Yours doesn't count, however.



(EDIT: I didn't even know "fistbump" was going to do that. Hee hee.)

[Puglover]

135. God that is brilliant.

You should post in ATA.

[Capt. Obvious]

136. I thought about suggesting it in ATA a long time ago

But I already know the answer will be no.

I tinkered with in the keyword trash feature but that only works on thread titles.

[Dragonfli]

204. But then we would never ever see Sid again... DU's best writer

and resident great thinker.

...I would miss him ever so much.

[stevenleser]

199. There are nine including two by you and one by Jack Riddler. Guess you were wrong. nt

[99Forever]

102. The truth.

We know it, no matter how many lies the lying liars tell.

Thanks Jack.

[MohRokTah]

103. I don't buy it.

HE chose to travel to Russia. That was his choice. Now he has to live with it.

[KoKo]

105. Recommend...

[tarheelsunc]

106. If Ecuador wants him and he wants to go, their embassy could issue him travel documents.

There's also something called the "world passport" that Ecuador apparently accepts as a valid travel document. If he really wanted out of Russia, he could get out. He's making the conscientious choice to stay in Russia.

[jakeXT]

107. Even after the Bolivia thing ?

Bolivia: Presidential plane forced to land after false rumors of Snowden onboard
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/02/world/americas/bolivia-presidential-plane/

[flamingdem]

119. There's no way for the US to know who is on an Aeroflot plane

to Ecuador via Havana. Plus, they'd never force down a passenger plane over Snowden and the Bolivia issue was never proven to be an operation as claimed by Evo.

[randome]

121. But that's not the story we want to believe!

Well, some want to believe.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

[JackRiddler]

145. Every bit of imperialism has its excuse.

In this case: Oops! That one never fails.

[ljm2002]

171. "was never proven to be an operation"...

..."as claimed by Evo".

Yeah, you know those hot-blooded Latinos, always making a big deal out of stuff. It's not like the US has a history of meddling in their affairs or anything. And it's not like there was an international diplomatic incident or anything.

[flamingdem]

187. There was never solid proof. Evo used it as an opportunity

within his country for elections.

Of course it's true that the USA meddles in Latin America, but sadly this was a BS claim that made them look foolish. If you have any solid proof that settles the matter please share it here. As it was Evo and friends were not able to supply evidence for their claims. It was more like a comedy of errors but even when this was revealed they kept pumping their story since it played well at home.

[ljm2002]

188. "Nothing to see here"...

..."just move along now".

Here is a link from the BBC reporting on the incident at the time:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-23190278

Spanish Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo said in a TV interview on Friday that Madrid had "no reason to apologise".

He said airspace was never closed to Mr Morales' plane, but that the delay in Austria meant the flight permit had expired and had to be renewed.

He also said in reference to Mr Snowden: "They told us he was inside [the plane]."

Mr Garcia-Margallo's comment is the first official recognition by the European states that the incident with Mr Morales' plane was connected with the Snowden affair.

Added on edit:

Italy, Portugal, Spain and France all apologized for the incident. Of course they worded their apologies carefully... but do you really think they apologized over nothing? Really???

[flamingdem]

195. This was already litigated on DU

There was a lot of false information being spread and incorrect statements were made.

Now find where that Foreign Minister names names and how he stated that when the nations involved met at the UN, well that would be of greater importance.

As it was there was not enough evidence to prove anything. Please do post articles that have references to official documents and statements, that would be interesting, but you won't find anything solid.

[ljm2002]

196. We agree on one thing...

...there was indeed "a lot of false information being spread" during the previous debates here on DU on this topic.

I remember one in particular. It had to do with a map purportedly showing the route from Moscow to Vienna. You really want to rehash all that? You really want to claim that this topic was "litigated" here on DU, and your side won? REALLY?

The FACT remains that an airplane of a head of state was not allowed to use its planned European route and had to land in Vienna. The FACT remains that FOUR -- count 'em, FOUR -- European countries APOLOGIZED to Evo Morales for the incident. Try and whitewash it all you want, try and ignore what happened, the ACTUAL EVIDENCE is crystal clear on this incident.

[flamingdem]

198. In other words you have done no research

and have nothing to back up your claims.

In retrospect it should all be clear and proofs should have been entered into the record at the UN meeting. Still, nothing solid and just disagreements about what happened.

The person who told that Spanish minister Snowden was on the plane? Who was the person who told him, who did he represent? Nada on that.

The apologies if they were such were carefully worded to be diplomatic but they weren't confessing as you imply.

[ljm2002]

200. What a steaming, condescending load... n/t

[jakeXT]

108. Yes, he was parked there by the US, the question is why /nt

[JackRiddler]

116. Good question.

[flamingdem]

117. He was able to leave via Cuba to Ecuador or Venezuela

according to Fidel Castro. He chose not to do that, for some reason.

Flights have to connect through Havana and at the time I assumed that the Cubans didn't want the ire of the USA. But that's not the case, and they've been known to give the finger to Uncle Sam.

[Adrahil]

197. If Snowden wanted to go to South America

Why didn't he go there, instead of Hong Kong?

[nilesobek]

123. He's trapped in Russia isn't he?

That would support the op. Because he was an employee of the NSA that would make him a spy right there, long before he was trapped in Russia.

By the amount of invective I detect here there is furious resistance to even giving this guy a fair trial.

I sincerely hope Snowden has the goods on the torture program, the sadistic weirdo torturers and their names. If all he has is the meta-data thing, my prediction is his favour will fizzle out.

[bvar22]

130. Oh Oh...

You peed in the Kiddie Pool.
They'll be swarming now.

Snowden himself has ALWAYS been irrelevant.
Those who are obsessed with attacking him
do so to distract from the following:

*Rampant Government Secrecy and Democracy can not co-exist.

*Persecution of Whistle Blowers and Democracy can not co-exist.

*Government surveillance of the citizenry and Democracy can not co-exist.

*Secret Laws and Democracy can not co-exist.

*Secret Courts and Democracy can not-co-exist.

*Our Democracy depends on an informed electorate.

You either believe in Democracy,
or you don't.
It IS that simple.

[JackRiddler]

131. I tried to "Like" your post!

The point, yes. Do an OP - unfortunately you'll have a few people agree but the swarm won't arrive to keep it running.

[NCTraveler]

132. When Putin is done with him he will be sent to a country willing to take him.

And not a day before Putin is done with him. Putin has a shiny new toy and is going to play with him until he gets some scratches.

[grasswire]

153. there you go again...

.....reading minds and prognosticating just like the old ladies at the beauty parlor on Saturday morning, gossiping and whispering about who done what and who said what and who went where and what the motives were. Laughable.

[NCTraveler]

180. With Putins latest little play with Snowden....

no one at this point can see it any other way. One would have to be a true dolt to not understand that the latest little show was completely directed by Putin. If you don't like my post on this, that are completely based on what is currently happening, then don't read them. Not one person can back up this last stunt as anything other than Snowden being Putins stooge. It would be foolish and based in something that is not there to claim otherwise. Not sure what beauty parlors have to do with anything. Guess you are saying I am a woman and must be a little beauty parlor gossip. Doesn't take what you perceive to be women gossiping at a beauty parlor to see that Snowden was just blatantly used as a stooge. What that has to do with anything is based on your own thoughts, not what is actually happening.

"old ladies at the beauty parlor"
"gossiping and whispering "

There you go again, making a baseless accusation. Sure it won't be the last time.

[99Forever]

181. "...no one at this point can see it any other way."

Nice double down on the "old ladies at the beauty parlor gossiping and whispering."

[Thinkingabout]

156. If you do a search you will find there are flights from Hawaii to Ecuador, there was not any need

for Snowden to fly to Hong Kong. He flew to Hong Kong before he so readily admitted he had stolen the materials. He could have probably gotten a flight from Hong Kong to Ecuador before he jumped up and said he was the one. Unless he was flown to Hong Kong, held and then forced to out himself, forced to fly to Moscow, then these was Snowden's decisions. If he was forced then the captors are responsible for him remaining in Moscow. Was Snowden forced to steal the files, was Snowden forced to reveal information to anyone. Unless forced, then Snowden is responsible for his location. If he was not advised of having his passport revoked and there by unable to get and airline to board him, then those advising him may be at fault. If he was not aware of the possibility of a passport being revoked then he has hidden his head and never listened when others has had to surrender their passports when there might be a need to travel because of some criminal activity. He made choices or was forced, right now he has not provided any proof he was forced to do any of his travels or crimes. You may feel sorry for him having to face justice but this is what happens when laws are broken. This was the chance he took, now he needs to accept the results of his decisions.

[JackRiddler]

157. Arrrrrrrrrgh get the story straight...

Ecuador offered him asylum AFTER AFTER his action became public. He was already in Hong Kong, not in Hawaii. Before he gave the files to Greenwald and Poitras, Ecuador would not have known his name. It would have been very stupid for him to be shopping around for asylum at various embassies prior to revealing his story in public (it would have justified the "spying" accusations).

All this bullshit about why and where of Snowden, and the function is to discredit and distract from the story: The U.S. government, your tax money, billions of dollars, is used to fund extraconstitutional blanket suspicionless mass surveillance of its own people and the world, for the purpose of propping up imperialist control and helping out the multideath corporations who don't care about you! You are not them. Their "interests" are not your interests. The NSA and Booz and the controllers of this system are your enemies at home.

Of course Snowden wasn't "forced" to "steal" the files. (The theft was the existence of the files in the first place, and it was a theft from you and hundreds of millions of others.) He did you a favor by exposing the surveillance program in its details.

[Thinkingabout]

159. Arrrrrrrrrgh get the story straight

Where was Snowden when he departed to fly to Hong Kong? If he was in Hawaii then there are flights from Hawaii to Ecuador. If he choose to fly to Hong Kong to meet with whomever, it was his choice to fly to Hong K.ong. It was probably his choice to fly to Moscow. He could have avoided all the side trip to Hong Kong and Moscow if his intended destination was Ecuador. Now do you understand?
His choices has not been good ones for himself. The rest of the world can not be held responsible for his choices.

Who admitted he was the one to reveal the information? May that have been Snowden?

How can Snowden do me a favor by exposing surveillance program which was already revealed in 2006? This is where the bullshit comes in, you are falling for his story, trying to give credit to someone who has shot himself in the foot over and over. I am not responsible for him shooting himself in the foot. You can distract from the facts by producing facts as you want them to be.

[JackRiddler]

160. Yeah, he should have flown from HK to Ecuador via Hawaii.

That would have no doubt resulted in the happiest outcome from your perspective, no?

[Thinkingabout]

162. He had already outed himself before he flew to Moscow.

He could have flown from Hawaii to Ecuador, an early mistake for someone assuming the path he was taking. Bad choices made by Snowden, this would place all the problems on himself. It was not about informing the American public about the surveillance, it is much deeper, it will continue to come to light.

[JackRiddler]

163. Where do these talking points come from?

This is like the fourth time someone has advanced this nonsense on this thread.

So you don't like the choices he made. But you are insinuating that Ecuador somehow was receptive to him prior to his leaving Hawaii.

Reality:

Ecuador offered him asylum AFTER the Greenwald-Gellman stories!!! If he had talked with Ecuador (or any other government) before releasing the material to the press, you would be calling him an Ecuadoran spy (or not, since possibly the NSA would have caught him!).

He didn't talk to any foreign governments prior to flying to Hong Kong and contacting Greenwald and Poitras -- exactly as a whistleblower should do it! Go to the press.

So yeah, he could have gone from Hawaii to anywhere, but he chose Hong Kong, since it's part China and part not (more complicated legal situation re: press freedom).

He could have tried some other route, as you so helpfully suggest in retrospect, and it might have or might not have worked better than what happened for him.

So? What does this latest talking point show? Nothing!

[Thinkingabout]

178. Simple, Snowden has put himself where he is, his choice, he may not have thought

Through his moves, had a bad adviser, ignorance of the law, whatever you want to believe. The facts are the facts, they can not be turned or twisted to fit the need.

[Beacool]

175. He made his bed, he can lay on it.

I have zero pity or empathy for him.

[Zorra]

184. Well said. nt

[DirkGently]

186. But his girlfriend danced on a pole!

A POLE. For god's sake, can't you see the NSA was right the whole TIME?

There was nothing to see there.

It was old news.

Metadata is harmless.

FISA FISA FISA!



And lastly, Pulitzer Prizes just go to the liberal medi ... I mean OBAMA HATERS, so once again, pole dancing and everything is FINE!

[JackRiddler]

203. oops bump

[JackRiddler]

205. & oops bump