Snowden is a hero

[Harmony Blue]

everyday I encounter another person that changed their mind about him going from negative to positive...almost like an epiphany. They believed initially that he was a traitor and that our government would not dare cross that line of trust. That line of trust between citizen and government which creates an integral symbiotic relationship that is the glue of our society has become weakened with the NSA revelations. Indeed, why serve the government and be part of government when our voices don't matter and can be potentially used against us? To change things you have to be part of government but how can you be part of a government when one portion is off limits to you as a citizen? Just like we have two economies (elite and then the rest) we have a two tier government now. Such stratification of government and economy is not sustainable as we know this from past collapses of nations, empires, and countries. It is not a matter if but when the house of cards comes down. I prefer to be on the right side of history IMVHO so when I am an old man I can say I took the right stance that people will be reading about history early in this century.

[DJ13]

1. Now you did it

[billhicks76]

87. 100% Agreed

I liked him from the start though. I also find it interesting he joined up because of 911 and was an early believer in the Amerixan cause in Iraq. Well, once he got close to the facts he realized the people had been swindled and our cause was unjust and criminal with those at the top fleecing the American people illegally.

[brush]

97. Do not agree

I've always thought, and have posted many times on these Snowden threads that his revelations of domestic info gathering, while not completely new (PRISM started under Cheney/Bush and was reported previously without getting much traction) did a service to the country and 4th Admendment rights.

But he seemed naive and at the same narcissistic in wanting everyone to know that he was the one revealing all the information gathering — he was advised that he could do it another way without giving up his whole life.

His real mistake though, IMO, was going too far in revealing details of his own country's international covert operations.

Here's something else that someone posted on another site:

"How freakin' long is it going to take for folks to realize Snowden is, was, and has always been a patsy? 

This wasn't a MISTAKE. Good god. Operatives the world 'round work day and night to recruit naive idiots in security positions like Snowden."

Snowden worked for the CIA in Switzerland before he hooked on with Dell, then Booz Allen. He could have been worked/turned there, or in Asia when he visited there before defecting with the "appropriated files".

Here's yet another take on the Putin Q&A:

"That's it in a nutshell -- as Shoeone wrote: "In asking his idiotic question, Snowden served Putin well, and punched his ticket for another year of" temporary" asylum."

I think as the saga unfolds people are beginning to get the full picture of who Snowden really is — most likely a naive yet narcissistic computer geek who got in way over his head and was used by journalists hungry for a scoop, and is now being used by Putin.

[sabrina 1]

100. If you were at all aware of what happened to all the other Whistle Blowers before him who

tried to warn the American people what their government was doing TO THEM, you would never say that there was a way for him to do it 'the right way'.

Drake did it by the book, took all the step up the ladder to report wrong doing by our Government. He was DESTROYED, his long, distinguished career in the military, his family, financially and his reputation. The long persecution nightmare he suffered went on for a decade.

They had NOTHING on him, since he did everything the way YOU just said Snowden should have, yet he was charged with egregious crimes, costing him everything he had. In the end after a decade of persecution, they dropped the charges as they knew all along they were phony charges.

And he was not the only one who did it 'the right way'.

There have been many Whistle Blowers since Bush and his gang of war criminals began the destruction of our rights using cynically, 9/11 to do so.

Chelsea Manning revealed War Crimes, she was tortured and isolated and silenced and is now in prison for over 30 years.

With all these courageous attempts to due their duty, some trusting their government, NOT ONE CRIMINAL has even been investigated. Just the messengers.

Snowden is just the latest and by the time he came forward the world knew how the US deals with Whistle Blowers, so did he and so will the next one, and I suspect from now on until the rule of law is reestablished in this country, Whistle Blowers will be forced to do what Snowden did or end up in one of our prisons with no protection from the kind of treatment Chelsea Manning received, shocking even people within our government.

Snowden and all Whistle Blowers in the current atmosphere in this country, ARE heroes and will be vindicated by history.

[brush]

117. IMO Snowden was a naive computer geek . . .

who got in way over his head. He went too far with the international revelations about our covert operations.

I agree with the domestic revelations but he didn't stop there. His fans won't acknowledge that — too hard I guess for them to process, or admit, that their hero is also a defector who divulged details of covert international operations.

And he may very well have been turned/worked by a seasoned operative who look for young, naive innocents in security positions.

Don't think Snowden will be vindicated at all — and making a Putin stooge of himself in the Q&A appearance seems to be the beginning of the unraveling of the hero worship around him.

[vlakitti]

127. Thank you, Sabrina 1.

You were eloquent and correct, and the recent press awards for Greenwald and the Guardian and their associates were an absolute vindication of Mr Snowden.

When the Clappers and the Feinsteins are charged with selling out their constitutional duties and responsibilities, I'll be a little more inclined to criticize the whistleblowers, but I think not before...

[pacalo]

131. Very well said, vlakitti -- I agree.

When the Clappers and the Feinsteins are charged with selling out their constitutional duties and responsibilities, I'll be a little more inclined to criticize the whistleblowers, but I think not before...

Sabrina 1 is a favorite of mine, too.

Welcome to DU, vlakitti!

[MannyGoldstein]

129. It's amazing that there are a few, very loud, people who don't get that

They just don't want it to be true, and will try to will it away.

Thanks for your post.

[grasswire]

4. especially to Democrats. nt

[ProSense]

6. "Democrats" don't hype Putin, and

Edward Snowden is a Ron Paul supporter

Ed Snowden: Leakers “should be shot in the balls,” and "cut this Social Security bullshit"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023102239

He added Putin's tool to his resume.

[rhett o rick]

34. Democrats dont hate whistle-blowers. Democrats dont obsess over

Snowden and Greenwald and give Gen Clapper a pass. Democrats dont blindly follow anyone and especially not a Republican.

[ProSense]

36. Democrats

"Democrats dont hate whistle-blowers. Democrats dont obsess over Snowden and Greenwald and give Gen Clapper a pass. Democrats dont blindly follow anyone and especially not a Republican. "

...don't pretend that a "screw-up" is "brilliant."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024852509

[zeemike]

49. Well you agree with Glen Beck, Sara Palin and Lindsey Graeme on this

Snowden is a traitor...
What does that make you?

[ProSense]

50. I agree that

playing Putin's tool was a "screw-up": http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024852509

"What does that make you?"

Not as gullible as those who tried to make it out as "brilliant."

[Thinkingabout]

55. Hey, Snowden is Putin's hero as long as Snowden is Putin's patsy.

The zero kicked himself to the curb, in Russia, guess he can stay.

[zeemike]

61. Well I don't believe that it was a screw up

And I see nothing at all wrong with what he did...probably because I don't watch the TV to find out what to think about things like others do.
And I don't believe things just because they are said often and with certainty...in fact the certinty makes me doubt them all the more...bullshit is often delivered in that manner.

[ProSense]

67. It didn't take a "TV" to see that this was an embarrassing event.

The fact that they're doing damage control means it was a massive FAIL.

[zeemike]

69. Who is they?

You think it is some kind of organization doing this?...Is this a CT?

[ProSense]

70. "They"

Snowden and his allies: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024852509

[zeemike]

74. So if I am an "ally" of his I have to agree it was a mistake?

And if I don't agree I am not one?

al·ly

1.
to unite formally, as by treaty, league, marriage, or the like (usually followed by with or to ): Russia allied itself to France.

2.
to associate or connect by some mutual relationship, as resemblance or friendship.

I doubt that any of those you speak of have any personal contact with him at all....so they are not allies.

[ProSense]

75. What?

"I doubt that any of those you speak of have any personal contact with him at all....so they are not allies."

This was his lawyer quoting him. This is damage control.

[zeemike]

78. What his lawyer said was...

From your own link..

“He basically viewed the question as his first foray into criticizing Russia. He was genuinely surprised that in reasonable corridors it was seen as the opposite,” added Ben Wizner, the American Civil Liberties Union attorney who serves as one of Snowden’s closest advisers.

Saying that he was surprised at the reaction is not the same as saying it was a mistake...you put that interpretation on it not him.

[ProSense]

93. Wrong

“He basically viewed the question as his first foray into criticizing Russia. He was genuinely surprised that in reasonable corridors it was seen as the opposite,” added Ben Wizner, the American Civil Liberties Union attorney who serves as one of Snowden’s closest advisers.

Saying that he was surprised at the reaction is not the same as saying it was a mistake...you put that interpretation on it not him.

His lawyer suggesting he was naive, that people in "reasonable corridors" (read: Snowden friendly) saw it as the opposite means that it was an epic FAIL.

Again, they tried to spin it as "brave" and "brilliant," makes it even more embarrassing.

At the same time, they were pushing the argument that he can't freely criticize Putin because he is a "guest" in Russia.

Like I said, he can't be trapped in a country that silences dissent and claim that he's attempting to hold Putin accountable, but must also be careful not to jeopardize his asylum.

It was a "screw-up."

[zeemike]

118. Right, like Al Gore suggested he invented the internet.

You interpreted it as suggesting he was naive...
It does not help your case when you do the same thing the right wingers do...it makes me think there is something going on with your agenda.

[rhett o rick]

92. I dont give a crap about what he does. He can do a terrible job on dancing with the

stars and you and The Group will report his every step. We have a lot of problems and you guys obsess on Snowden. I am guessing you cant deal with the important stuff so you post day after day with all the gang repeating the same ad hominem posts.

[ProSense]

94. Another

"I dont give a crap about what he does. He can do a terrible job on dancing with the stars and you and The Group will report his every step. We have a lot of problems and you guys obsess on Snowden. I am guessing you cant deal with the important stuff so you post day after day with all the gang repeating the same ad hominem posts. "

...leave Snowden alone post. LOL!

[rhett o rick]

102. And another distortion. I think that the obsession

The Group has with disparaging Snowden is divisive and makes DU suck. Esp the coordinated attacks. Plez.

[ProSense]

104. Nope,

"And another distortion. I think that the obsession

The Group has with disparaging Snowden is divisive and makes DU suck. Esp the coordinated attacks. Plez. "

...not a "distortion." The claim about "obsession" and the rest are all about the inability to deal with criticism of Snowden.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024852051#post113

[sabrina 1]

144. Democrats don't change their views on the principles they espoused as soon as there is a change

of party leadership.

Ron Wyden eg, is a Democrat who opposed all these dangerous Bush policies under Republicans. That's what Democrats do. Now he has received vindication for his warning to the American people, thanks to Snowden.

Don't bother with links showing me where Wyden supported something else we not in agreement over. That old 'look over there' trick has long worn itself out.

We are talking about our Constitutional Rights and on that issue, Wyden has been a consistent voice among Democrats.

[nikto]

111. Together, Putin and Snowden...

Will bring the US to it's knees!

We're doomed.

Compared to Snowden,
Hitler is Mother Teresa.

He's worse than Hit-La!!!!!!

[Harmony Blue]

22. Because fundamentally all humans fall into two categories

of collectivism and individuality. Either extreme is bad and as history has shown society collapses when this happens. This is why having government control every move you make or having no government oversight (Libertarians) is simply bad. The key is balance as we do need central government help but we still need individual freedom.

I believe what the NSA have done upsets this balance. That is why we must speak up now because this will worsen over time.

[ProSense]

3. Quite a few

"Snowden is a hero everyday I encounter another person that changed their mind about him going from negative to positive...almost like an epiphany."

...people changed their mind after his recent embarrassing stunt.

Snowden’s Camp: Staged Putin Q&A Was a Screw-Up
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024852509


Pew:

Older adults are also the most likely to want the U.S. to pursue a criminal case against Snowden. Overall, 56% of Americans want there to be a criminal case against Snowden and 32% do not. While adults 50 and older say the government should prosecute Snowden by a margin of about two-to-one, those under 30 are divided, 42%-42%.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/04/15/nsa-coverage-wins-pulitzer-but-americans-remain-divided-on-snowden-leaks

No doubt playing Putin's tool will change more minds.

[Harmony Blue]

5. Post the one with millenials

you know the generation that will be running this country soon enough.

[ProSense]

8. The one in which

"Post the one with millenials"

...half of them want him prosecuted:



Again, that was before he played Putin's tool.

[Harmony Blue]

10. 57% support of Snowden!

Amazing from the 18-29 demographic.

[ProSense]

19. That the number that states it was a public service; They split evenly on prosecution

Hey, but ignore that. LOL!

[Harmony Blue]

24. A split is a postive thing

because it implies that the government's argument is weak. Once the evidence is revealed expect that number wanting to prosecute Snowden to plummet.

[ProSense]

27. LOL! n/t

[whatchamacallit]

32. HAIL HYDRA!

[neverforget]

128. Lol!

[grasswire]

7. That survey is from JANUARY.

Your post is bogus. Simply bogus.

[ProSense]

11. LOL! The Pew article is from last week, and mentions the survey.

"That survey is from JANUARY."

The fact that you ignored that I stated that it will likely change given the recent embarrassing event is telling.

[grasswire]

20. copying your post here for the record.

ProSense:

Quite a few

"Snowden is a hero everyday I encounter another person that changed their mind about him going from negative to positive...almost like an epiphany."

...people changed their mind after his recent embarrassing stunt.

Snowden’s Camp: Staged Putin Q&A Was a Screw-Up
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024852509


Pew:

Older adults are also the most likely to want the U.S. to pursue a criminal case against Snowden. Overall, 56% of Americans want there to be a criminal case against Snowden and 32% do not. While adults 50 and older say the government should prosecute Snowden by a margin of about two-to-one, those under 30 are divided, 42%-42%.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/04/15/nsa-coverage-wins-pulitzer-but-americans-remain-divided-on-snowden-leaks

No doubt playing Putin's tool will change more minds.

[ProSense]

21. LOL! Good job. n/t

[grasswire]

12. This is the most dishonest post I've seen you make.

To represent that Pew poll as if it reflected on Snowden's recent action is just dishonest. For shame.

[ProSense]

16. Stop panicking. Pew: NSA coverage wins Pulitzer, but Americans remain divided on Snowden leaks

Read the piece and stop making bogus accusations.

[ProSense]

23. Hey,

did you see this post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024852509

LOL!

[G_j]

96. whatever you want to call him

The world is better off for what he did.

[ProSense]

98. "The world is better off" because he played Putin's tool? n/t

[G_j]

133. quite frankly

I don't think that had any significant effect on much of anything.

[MohRokTah]

9. No, he's a criminal. eom

[Harmony Blue]

15. Explain

here is your chance.

[MohRokTah]

18. Your mind is made up.

No need for me to explain myself to you.

[Harmony Blue]

26. So I suppose you have made up your mind as well

fine.

[uhnope]

14. Snowden lied, big time. Not a hero in my book

Him and Greenwald lied. Read this before you continue your hero-worship

Report Indicates Snowden/Greenwald Lied About Key Claims

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/08/09/1229963/-Report-Indicates-Snowden-Greenwald-Lied-About-Key-Claims

Why he lied, why him and Greenwald collaborated in this long, drawn out scheme, we may never know. Maybe Greenwald used the naive Snowden so he, Greenwald, could get famous. Snowden seems to have gotten the short end of the stick, that's for sure. Still, Snowden lied just as much as Greenwald, so no sympathy there, really.

[Harmony Blue]

17. If they lied why would the U.S. government

go through all this trouble for these two "liars".

Sorry that is not logical.

[elias49]

28. The Dana Priest piece is the final truth?

Based on information provided by the NSA about their regulatory processes? Good grief!

[uhnope]

89. Gimme me break. Here are Snowden's claims. They are still BS now like they were when he made them:

Snowden defenders, you can't show any evidence that these outrageous claims by Snowden weren't lies:
“I, sitting at my desk, certainly had the authorities to wiretap anyone, from you or your accountant, to a federal judge or even the President, if I had a personal e-mail.”

“All they have to do is enter an e-mail address or an IP address, and it does two things, searches the database and lets them listen to the calls or read the e-mails of everything that the NSA has stored, or look at the browsing histories and Google search terms.”

“It’s done with no need to go to court, no need to get approval . . . But it allows them to listen to whatever e-mails they want, telephone calls, browsing history, Microsoft Word documents.”


This has all been shown to be BS. It's been disproved. It's plainly not truth. How many ways can it be said?

You Snowden worshippers might say that maybe what he said wasn't exactly true, but it led to revelations about some NSA abuse. That's like calling Chicken Little a hero because a drop rain fell after he claimed the sky was falling.

Read this http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/08/09/1229963/-Report-Indicates-Snowden-Greenwald-Lied-About-Key-Claims#
or the original http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/piercing-the-confusion-around-nsas-phone-surveillance-program/2013/08/08/bdece566-fbc4-11e2-9bde-7ddaa186b751_story.html

[Vattel]

31. LOL, the dailykos article is ill-informed.

The NSA routinely violated the reasonable articulable suspicion standard. Even the FISA court judges complained about that.

[KoKo]

43. This is old news from August 9/2012. Much has been released since then and

this was just a diary on Kos.

[SunsetDreams]

130. It was August 9th 2013..what's been released since then? nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

29. I heard someone say that if a guy steals you TV....but in the process...

discovers you have bad wiring in your house.....do you still prosecute the guy for stealing the TV?

[SidDithers]

30. He deserves a medal...

Sid

[WillyT]

33. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[BlindTiresias]

35. What should he have done instead?

The official channels are more or less closed and as he was a contractor and not technically a federal employee it is unclear he would even receive whistleblower protections.

Some people would prefer to be ignorant, it seems people in the Democratic party have certainly come a long way since Bush. Oh, how The Ring seduces...

[Harmony Blue]

40. Good post

ignorance is bliss for some yes this is true.

[uponit7771]

122. Can every man of color in the US have the same excuse about Channels being closed? FUCK NO...

... I'd have to go through one of the most corrupt and racially biased judicial systems for the smallest of shit.

Men of color in the US can't run to Russia and be claimed innocent because of "channels" here by Snowden supporters.

I don't believe that for a second

[BlindTiresias]

125. Whistleblower protections are very weak

And his status as a contractor means even if he discretely went to the press with it without attempting to escape the United States he could still be arrested and thrown in jail for a very long time. I wouldn't blame anyone for wanting to avoid that injustice.

[uponit7771]

126. Again, men of color in the US can say the same thing but not get the benefit of the doubt that is

...given to Snowden.

It's hypocritical at best

The Obama admin has protected people who've blown the whistle before

[Aerows]

37. I think so, as well n/t

[treestar]

38. I thought it was not about Eddie

Except when it is.

Heroes do not go to Russia. They don't report our secrets to the South China Post.

[babylonsister]

39. Those pesky details no one mentions! nt

[cantbeserious]

42. No Proof That Anything Was Divulged To The South China Post - Already Debunked

eom

[ProSense]

62. Not accurate

Snowden plans more leaks...will let foreign press decide if leaks endanger Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023084875

[cantbeserious]

73. Already Debunked

eom

[ProSense]

77. Link to piece that "debunked" Snowden's own words? n/t

[cantbeserious]

79. No Proof That Anything Was Divulged To The South China Post - Already Debunked

eom

[ProSense]

80. You clearly have no link. n/t

[cantbeserious]

88. You Clearly Have Not Read All The Posts At DU

eom

[uponit7771]

120. Like 99.989% of all humans on Earth haven't done that, don't see what that proves and you've.

...shown no link to Snowdens own claims of leaking being debunked

[cantbeserious]

132. Your Responsibility To Keep Abreast Of Information

eom

[uponit7771]

143. What you're saying is false, your responsibility to stay accurate

[cantbeserious]

145. Not My Responsibility To Sort Through The False Claims Made By Others

Last edited Tue Apr 22, 2014, 08:33 PM - Edit history (1)

eom

[NCTraveler]

138. "You Clearly Have Not Read All The Posts At DU"

One of the all time greatest posts. It stands true for almost every single duer. It does hold true for pretty much every single person on this planet. And that is your reason for not providing a link. I am under the impression that you are not being serious. Either way, it was a good laugh.

You haven't read all of du. You don't deserve to know what I know. lol

[cantbeserious]

140. Personal Denigration - One Of The Logical Fallacies

eom

[NCTraveler]

142. Here

https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/659/03/

http://utminers.utep.edu/omwilliamson/ENGL1311/fallacies.htm

[uponit7771]

119. +1

[cantbeserious]

41. Thank You Snowden - Thank You Greenwald - Please Keep Up The Good Work

eom

[KoKo]

46. Absolutely. Pulitzer Prize and Polk Award. Highest levels in Journalism...

for Greenwald on Snowden Story. Naysayers are out today...the PUSHBACK..because the verification of the Prizes is just too much for some.

[ProSense]

48. Charles Krauthammer, Kathleen Parker, George Will

Pulitzer winners.

"Naysayers are out today...the PUSHBACK..because the verification of the Prizes is just too much for some."

An OP that states "Snowden is a hero" does not negate the fact that he played Putin's tool, and is now engaged in damage control.

Snowden’s Camp: Staged Putin Q&A Was a Screw-Up
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024852509

The so-called "naysayers" are not responsible for that.

[L0oniX]

51. "idiots who hate Snowden" You're being too kind.

I have many other various descriptions of them that could get me alerted on ...but then you never know who will be on the jury. All it takes is 4 of these "idiots" in the blog nanny pool.

[Logical]

53. True. You might get some clueless ones on the jury. nt

[ProSense]

56. What's more

"Even the idiots who hate Snowden will not admit he started a conversation that....."

...even the people who believe Snowden "started a conversation" want him prosecuted.

Pew:

Older adults are also the most likely to want the U.S. to pursue a criminal case against Snowden. Overall, 56% of Americans want there to be a criminal case against Snowden and 32% do not. While adults 50 and older say the government should prosecute Snowden by a margin of about two-to-one, those under 30 are divided, 42%-42%.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/04/15/nsa-coverage-wins-pulitzer-but-americans-remain-divided-on-snowden-leaks

No doubt playing Putin's tool will change more minds.

LOL!

[Logical]

60. It bothers you all of the sudden your hero decided to discuss NSA abuses. I love it! And watching...

you post 10,000 posts about it reminds all of us about your Chained CPI defense.

Wow, you fail a lot.

[ProSense]

63. LOL!

It bothers you all of the sudden your hero decided to discuss NSA abuses. I love it! And watching...

you post 10,000 posts about it reminds all of us about your Chained CPI defense.

Wow, you fail a lot.

Stop projecting. The OP is about Snowden, "hero."

Asl for "Chained CPI," there was no "defense."

Like I said here (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024843557#post37), Obama hasn't cut Social Security, but Snowden did play Putin's tool.

So that's where things stand: Snowden fans are desperately trying to make him out to be a "hero" after his epic FAIL as Putin's tool, which has him and his team doing damage control.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024852509

[Thinkingabout]

57. So did Ted Bundy

[Thinkingabout]

65. Some has difficulty understanding, eh?

[uponit7771]

121. +1

[KittyWampus]

45. I thought it wasn't about Snowden? Pick a f*cking lane people.

[BlueStater]

47. The worship of this guy around here is just plain bizarre.

You can support his actions without supporting the man himself. Personally, I think he's an egotistical clown who did what he did not out of bravery but because he's a moron who didn't bother to think things through before choosing to ruin his life. Calling him a "hero" belittles the word.

[zeemike]

59. What is more bizarre

Is how many people on a progressive site are willing to through out the bill of rights to protect the party...and do so with the lamest of strategies of attack the messenger.

That is more than just bizarre, it is scary to me because it means we have been co opted by Conservative thought.

[Thinkingabout]

68. What bill of rights has been thrown out?

[zeemike]

71. The forth amendment.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

[Thinkingabout]

72. What about the probable cause, you have to take the entire Fourth Amendment.

You can't run with a portion of the amendment, you are throwing out the Fourth Amendment.

[zeemike]

76. What about probable cause?

What probable cause did they have to gather every phone call any American made?...are we all under suspicion now?

[Thinkingabout]

83. Businesses are also subject to warrants.

[zeemike]

86. Yes for documents about their business

Not information about their customers...unless.

upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

They can't just say they want it all.

[Thinkingabout]

123. You missed, wrong, the records belongs to the companies.

[zeemike]

124. And the probable cause is?

That all of their customers are terrorist?
That argument is exactly what the forth amendment was intended to prevent.

[Thinkingabout]

135. There has been groups located through call patterns so there is

Activity, ergo probable cause. Will this prevent all attacks, no but preventing you from being killed just may be important. Our skies are monitored 24/7, are all objects in the skies someone attacking the US, no. Lots of methods are used in the US defense in order to keep our nation safe.

[AverageJoe90]

52. Sure. And I guess Obama is Repub lite, huh? Are all white people "privileged", too?

Yeah, I hate to come across as harsh, and I hope I didn't, but Snowden isn't a hero. C'mon. He's an imbecilic coward who stumbled his way into dumbassery at best.....or maybe a fucking sell-out who endangered innocent people for the hell of it at worst. At least Chelsea Manning's actions had some genuine concern behind them.....Snowden? Not so much.

[Shivering Jemmy]

54. I must be the only one who just doesn't care about him

One way or another.

[arely staircase]

64. sounds like a ground swell. mt

[840high]

66. k/r

[DeSwiss]

81. Damn right he is.

- And you have no idea how many gaskets blew with this post and every time there's another like it. The WH is pulling out all the stops to try to turn the country against the very people who are risking their lives trying to protect them.

And it pains me to see such hypocrisy and outright betrayal of the democratic principles this country claims to have always stood for. These are the ones Morpheus warned us about.

K&R

''The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.'' ~Morpheus

[WillyT]

82. They Just Can't Deal With It... What If He Wins The Nobel ???

[greyl]

84. Snowden could have been a hero. nt

[BenzoDia]

85. A hero to Putin and his boys.

[Aerows]

90. He is

and I believe that history will vindicate him as such.

[uhnope]

91. Chicken Little is a hero because a drop of rain fell after he said the sky was falling

Snowden defenders, you can't show any evidence that these outrageous claims by Snowden weren't lies:

“I, sitting at my desk, certainly had the authorities to wiretap anyone, from you or your accountant, to a federal judge or even the President, if I had a personal e-mail.”

“All they have to do is enter an e-mail address or an IP address, and it does two things, searches the database and lets them listen to the calls or read the e-mails of everything that the NSA has stored, or look at the browsing histories and Google search terms.”

“It’s done with no need to go to court, no need to get approval . . . But it allows them to listen to whatever e-mails they want, telephone calls, browsing history, Microsoft Word documents.”


This has all been shown to be BS. It's been disproved. It's plainly not truth. How many ways can it be said?

You Snowden worshippers might say that maybe what he said wasn't exactly true, but it led to revelations about some NSA abuse. That's like calling Chicken Little a hero because a drop of rain fell after he claimed the sky was falling.

Read this http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/08/09/1229963/-Report-Indicates-Snowden-Greenwald-Lied-About-Key-Claims#
or the original http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/piercing-the-confusion-around-nsas-phone-surveillance-program/2013/08/08/bdece566-fbc4-11e2-9bde-7ddaa186b751_story.html

[zappaman]

95. Not even a club sandwich. N/t

[Aerows]

99. He's got more bacon

than the lot of his naysayers. He put his on the line. Did you?

[zappaman]

101. Nah, it's cheese he's loaded on.

Swiss.

[Aerows]

103. More guts than you

You have the Dude's avatar, yet you would willingly submit to anything.

[zappaman]

105. Lol.

Pretty sure I could take a raccoon though.
You?

[Aerows]

106. I'm still here.

Was that supposed to be a jab?

[zappaman]

107. As much of a jab as yours was I suppose.

[Aerows]

109. No, that was a personal attack

but I'm a hell of a lot tougher than that.

A hug doesn't change the fact that you were a butthead, and you can feel free to alert that I called you a butthead, since you were one.

[zappaman]

110. Lol.

Yes, calling me gutless was a personal attack.
But it's weak, I wouldn't alert.
Keep on truckin'!

[Aerows]

114. Oh my

Loving me and hearts and flowers doesn't change ...

Oh. You were a butthead.

[zappaman]

116. Lol.

[zappaman]

108. By the way

I don't have the dude as my avatar.
Just something else you have wrong...

[Aerows]

112. I know

I watched the movie. I got the reference correct, and you knew I was referring to Senator Sobchak

[zappaman]

113. I knew that?

Sure....I KNEW you knew who the character was but for some reason, you decided to refer to him by the wrong name.

[Dragonfli]

115. A hero to some, a nightmare to others

[B Calm]

134. A hero for the Tea Party. .

[dilby]

141. A hero for anyone who does not like their rights trampled on.

What the Government was doing was wrong, they know it was wrong and what he did was call them out on it.

[B Calm]

149. YAWN

[dilby]

150. If it was not wrong why not just admit to it in the begining.

Why not just tell the American people hey we are spying on all of you. What was the benefit of hiding that they were spying on us?

[grasswire]

155. obviously there was a benefit for some.

Those who profit from it monetarily, those who accrue power (of many different kinds}, and those who operate in the dark places simply because of some undemocratic impulses.

[NCTraveler]

136. Extremely flawed people can be heroic.

His original act, regardless of the reasons, was heroic.

[NuclearDem]

139. Snowden's an asshole, but he did what had to be done.

Well, some of it anyway. Why he still holds stuff back is baffling.

[bvar22]

146. The same thing happened with Daniel Ellsberg.

He was initially demonized by Conservatives and Authoritarians as a traitor.
They were on the WRONG side of History,
just as those who demonize Snowden are on the WRONG side of History today.

At least some have sufficient Ego Strength to admit they initially made a mistake in judging Snowden a traitor.
History will prove Snowden and Greenwald to be heroes of Democracy and Government accountable to The People.
The Pulitzer for Public Service will go a long way to confirming their role in History.

*Rampant Government Secrecy and Democracy can not co-exist.

*Persecution of Whistle Blowers and Democracy can not co-exist.

*Government surveillance of the citizenry and Democracy can not co-exist.

*Secret Laws and Democracy can not co-exist.

*Secret Courts and Democracy can not-co-exist.

*Our Democracy depends on an informed electorate.

You either believe in Democracy,
or you don't.
It IS that simple.

[Progressive dog]

147. Snowden is an accused felon who fled to Russia

and will say and do anything he has to, if Putin will only let him stay.

[LanternWaste]

148. I think he's a wonderful topic for column inches in the gossip section of a daily rag...

Although I think he's a wonderful topic for column inches in the gossip section of a daily rag, I most certainly wish we would collectively focus much more on the policies he advertised rather than the person.

[mylye2222]

151. Listen folks.,The issue is complicated, really

I will not call him a hero. He did something wrong, and because of his action, some people lives might be endangered. But the true fact is that by doing this, and as wrongly and unecessary did he, he raised the question of surveillance. I know those dispositions of mass surveillance, or safety, whatever you call it I dont judge are not Obama's Administration. They are Bush's and post 911 fear-driven policies.

But traitor... you know, I don't like this word. This word uses so much can lead to despicable effect. Enveryone is looking for traitors instead of focusing the issues. And by the way, when its a conservatrive government who is leading while a leaker expose a scandal, for us he is not a traitor but hero....

I think everyone should calm down. I am not a Snowden supporter. He sounds also phony to me. Especially with the all russian stuff. Be we should be logical.

That MHO. You are not force to agree with me. Everyone is free to think what he wants.
This whole subject is to dividive.

[WilliamPitt]

152. Bears repeating.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024645737

[grasswire]

154. indeed nt