Snowden's revelations: thumbs up or down?

But no room for acknowledging that in your poll. Not surprising. Your either with him or against him, right?

It's about what he revealed.

And the question's about the whole enchilada or not. Feel free to answer or not.

Though I understand why. You have given people a choice of being glad he told the chinese about US spying on them or say they are "sad" he revealed the domestic phone data collection. Mannie's Choice, worst movie ever. Recd for obviousness.

Is that the best you can do?

Also, "bullshit ass'd poll" should be "bullshit-assed poll". Remember, it's little things like grammar and spelling that might make people overlook an otherwise-thoughtful post.

Pathetic and desperate.

.....but persist in posting that BOGUS piece of BS.

"But the most brilliant technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly and with unflagging attention. It must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over. Here, as so often in this world, persistence is the first and most important requirement for success."


Bonus Points for those who can ID the above quote.

They make for good bon fires and I love me some smores.

I guess this will have to do for now.

The question being, to which revelations do you refer "NSA collection of metadata" or "details of intelligence operations against China?"

Both of which are revelations that Snowden has made, so the question is quite relevant to your poll.

And it contains exactly zero personal attacks against you, while casting exactly zero aspersions on the character of Snowden.

Don't try to muddy the water.

The domestic stuff is so horrible it makes the government lack any credibility and borderline illegitimate. Don't take your eye off the ball.

Manning revealed Bush's lying as war crimes and there is but a handful on this board that remembers and continues to champions her sacrifice.

US Constitution



Lots of people died for the Bill of Rights

Good one!

to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

There. I've now posted an amendment, and therefore, have won all gun debates, forevermore.

Screw 200 years of Constitutional jurisprudence, US Code, state and local laws......I QUOTED AN AMENDMENT!!!!!!

not Snowden.

I don't know.

Reform the NSA and hold Snowden, Putin's tool, accountable for the crimes he has been charged with:


Many people who oppose NSA overreach, and recognize the value of the debate, but don't approve of Snowden's actions that go beyond sparking a debate about the NSA's domestic activities. In the end, a trial is required to hold him accountable.

Jimmy Carter:


Bernie Sanders:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024292659

Senator Blumenthal: prosecute Snowden, overhaul FISA courts.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023425884

Rep. John Lewis: "NO PRAISE FOR SNOWDEN-Reports about my interview with The Guardian are misleading"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023427908


From the beginning, it was clear that Snowden broke the law (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023439290). There was a point where even Snowden supporters accepted that he knew he broke the law. Snowden said it himself.

Fleeing the country and releasing state secrets did not help his case.

His actions since then have only made the situation worse.

Whistleblowers have been making that point, some in subtle ways.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023236549

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023035550

Of course, this is dimissed because they're also critical of the NSA. It's as if some think that you can't be against NSA overreach (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023002358) unless you support Snowden.

What's that line thrown out whenever Greenwald is criticized: Were you against Clarke when he went after Bush? Were you for Scooter Libby when he leaked Plame's identity?

Man that usually gets the snowdenistas really riled up around here when one of us points it out. Gets you accused of all kinds of shit.

the poll results speak louder, and more hopefully.

Thanks for all you do.

it gets harder to naysay.

...awarded to Greenwald for publishing Snowden's revelations did go a long way toward vindication.
That also drove the authoritarians at DU foaming-at-the-Mouth nuts,
so I call that a WIN/WIN for Snowden & Greenwald.

Manny's poll is just the cherry on the Hot Fudge Sundae served up by the Pulitzer Prize for Public Service.

who actually work there will.

1) You continually insist that Snowden released classified information to foreign governments,
even AFTER being informed that Snowden released the classified information to credible MEDIA outlets.
The Editorial Staffs THEN decided what to publish.



2)The Pulitzer was awarded to the Guardian and Washington Post for publishing Greenwald's accounts of the information about the unconstitutional overreach of the NSA provided by Edward Snowden.
Snowden and Greenwald were the Sine qua non of the Pulitzers for the Post and The Guardian.
It is disingenuous in the extreme to attempt to separate them from this prestigious award.

Pulitzer Awarded to The Guardian and Washington Post for Coverage on Snowden's NSA Leaks
http://mashable.com/2014/04/14/pulitzer-greenwald-poitras-snowden/

Nobody here will believe your petulant, disingenuous, desperate denials,
but you may get a handful of the "usuals" to pretend they do.

Congrats to Edward Snowden & Glenn Greenwald for their most essential roles in winning the Pulitzer for Public Service!

Ok take a look at the charges that are currently against him and show me where that exception occurs.

And neither comrade Eddie nor Mr Greenwald won a Pulitzer.

"release(ing) to the media absolves Snowdon(sic) of criminal liability"
You are now just Making Stuff Up.

I have never stated anything close to that.

Snowden became a criminal when he chose to go outside the established system,
just as the early American Revolutionaries became criminals when they did the same.

NOW,
please provide your cite for your claims,
or admit you just made that up.

Fabricating False Claims and using that to attack other members of DU is something I take seriously.
YOU should take it seriously.
DU should take it seriously.

You should know better,
claiming to be a lawyer and all.

in spite of all the propaganda.

Bi partisan support for the guy to be put behind bars. First time Dems and Repubs have probably agreed on anything.

From January:



Anyone that tries to tell you that majorities of Americans support Snowden is lying or can't read.

were defending BP and the government secrecy around amount of oil leaking and dispersant use. It was a sickening attempt to protect Obama from any and every reasonable criticism of drilling policy.

Now, the same crew is apologizing for spying.

how they compromise their principals and how much time and money they have to monopolize public forums. Money = speech.

He did us a favor...even the haters reaped benefits.

with.. Then I can start to do something bout it..

Having my eye's wide open helps me work toward solutions,

if their is one.

Thank you MG

Snowden revealed what society has endured for centuries. You mean there are secrets in profiteering going in the government that we the people don’t know about ? Of course there are!

Blithely and merrily in disposition my views examine how careful we the people add fresh debate to an old saga in leadership exampled by the ancients:

“Julius Caesar put together an elaborate spy network to keep himself apprised of the various plots against him. In fact, Caesar may have known about the Senate-led conspiracy that culminated in his assassination.”

An article is on

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24749166


With that said many could think history repeats with America’s Senate or Congress conspirators. This history part is a well-known fact played out in time with the right circumstances America leadership using today’s technology is ripe for history to repeat itself.

Ever since reading the book “Secrets of the Kingdom” by Gerald Posner, my intuitive outlook about our government took a turn to the corruption that is likely to exist.

Posner expressed an extraordinary illustration of greed, abuse of power and corruption that make Julius Caesar seem like a mythical being or legend surreal recast before us in unbelievable , fantastic theater via the mainstream media.

America has not made that transition through such a tragedy yet. That’s what is difficult for us today. The political liars that started secret charade likely did think it all was too big to fail, however, all through the previous history the Internet did not exist.

There is no recourse for those on top of this secret charade in government which probably started as an amusement thinking that it was too big to fail now find out the real “We the people” would rather not work for such a government.

Snowden is spectacular proof positive of a new age. My comparison could be a stretch but similar ways like that of Galileo, or Di Vinci brilliant men oppressed because they know the world was different and the governments back then dominated by religion lied it’s citizens.



Of course, toned down for the treachery in secrecy in genocides the Europeans endured by the tyrants through time. America is trying to peel away from this cancer in politics. Begs the question of how can it be reformed when the high-courts say the news media can lie in reporting news. America is pivoting at the precipice with those who think we are too big to fail.

Good.

Pew:




No doubt playing Putin's tool will change more minds.

Snowden’s Camp: Staged Putin Q&A Was a Screw-Up
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024852509

LOL!

Or not.

And I'm not sure how much of that is Snowden and how much is Greenwald. But it's better to know than not to know.

Bryant

the PTB could have stomped him into silence and submission.

QED: Chelsea Manning

1) Stay inside the rigged system.
Report to his "superiors",
and face the consequences of "Not being a team player"

2) Go OUTSIDE the system and have a much better chance of getting this important information to The Public,
but becomes a "criminal" immediately upon making this choice.

I believe he made the right choice.
He is now stranded in Russia,
but that is immensely better than the where Chelsea Manning is.

DESPISE the disclosure of international intelligence gathering operations and want him to be put on trial for those crimes and I hope he does some hard time for it.

I can't wait for them to leak information regarding the extent to which the NSA hires posters to influence public opinion on the web.

Shouldn't have had to, if whistleblower protections in the intelligence community were worth the paper they're written on, though.

Also still not a fan of him as a person. It's stupid to form cults of personality around anyone, because personalities will let you down.

can say "Ok. Now that we agree on the problem, let's look for solutions on how to address the problem!"

I came to the same conclusion. That is what they are all about. Muddling the conversation and undermining our resolve to finding a solution.

Pro: Most of the NSA stuff we already knew, but it has sparked a needed discussion.

Con: He's been releasing all kinds of info not connected to Domestic Surveillance.

I also think Greenwald used Snowden as a stooge. Greenwald has benefited directly from leaks of both types above, and Snowden is taking the fall for all of it, probably ending up as both a whistle-blower and a traitor in the process.

So I'm unimpressed.

I'm glad he released the information about internal spying on US citizens.

OTOH, I think there was no justification for him to hand over information about our spying on foreign countries to the Chinese and others.

And I wish he had thought all this through before he left, so he wouldn't have become a puppet in the hands of Russia.

There is no evidence what-so-ever that Snowden "handed over" classified information to ANYONE
other than accredited journalists.
The Editorial Staffs of those publications then decided what they would and would not publish.

Your beef is with the editorial staffs of these publications,
not Edward Snowden.



There is a small but persistent group of people who are intentionally trying to catapult the dis-information
that Snowden released classified information to foreign governments.
This is completely FALSE.

and handing them to the Chinese government.

Only the incredibly naive could think that.

One is the TRUTH,

the other is a FALSE statement attempting to make it look like Snowden was in cahoots with foreign governments.

Its easy to distinguish between the two when one has an internal Moral Compass.

You DO know that the China is NOT an "enemy" of the USA.
They are a ally,
and Bill Clinton, reversing a Campaign Promise, granted China Most Favored Nation Trade Status in 1994.

Do you really believe that we should be hacking the computers of of Most Favored Trade Partners and Allies?

You remind me of Rumsfeld.
After the Torture at Abu Ghraib was exposed,
he never saw Torture as the Problem.
He saw the problem as The People finding out about the torture,
and solved it by tightening the security at the torture centers,
and forbidding Camera Phones.
Problem Solved.

If you are so upset about our Most Favored Trade Ally finding out about our spying on them,
then maybe the problem is the SPYING,
and not the transparency?
Yes?

We trade with them, but we'd be nuts to trust them. And the CIA and NSA are supposed to be spying on them.

Japan and South Korea are our allies. We are not at war with China, but it is not our ally. It's an ally of North Korea, and it is a country whose power we are trying to contain.

http://news.msn.com/world/obama-seeks-to-ease-asian-allies-doubts-during-visit-to-japan

The difficulty of Obama's balancing act was underscored hours before he arrived on Wednesday night when Chinese state media criticized U.S. policy in the region as "a carefully calculated scheme to cage the rapidly developing Asian giant".

Obama told Japan's Yomiuri newspaper that while Washington welcomed China's peaceful rise, "our engagement with China does not and will not come at the expense of Japan or any other ally."

Leaders who will meet Obama on his Asia trip - which will also include stops in South Korea, Malaysia and the Philippines - are also keeping a wary eye on the crisis in Ukraine through the prism of their own territorial disputes with Beijing.

Some of China's neighbors worry that Obama's apparent inability to rein in Russia, which annexed Crimea last month, could send a message of weakness to China.

"If you are ashamed for people to find out what you are doing,
you shouldn't be doing it."

The difference between me and you.

Should we follow the lead of the least common denominator?
Were you one of those who justified OUR torturing because they were doing it?

It's about handing over files to the Chinese.

NOBODY "handed over files to the Chinese."
Snowden handed over files to credentialed Journalists.
The Editorial Staffs of those publications decided what to publish.

There seems to be a fanatical resistance to truth around here.

Thank you Manny.

< see what I did there!