My story can be found on page 137 of 'How to Destroy the Middle Class' playbook ....

[ColesCountyDem]

I'm 56. Like most in our generation, I did all of 'the right things', the things that our parents taught us we should do to succeed: I studied hard and did well in K-12, and was awarded a 'full ride' academic scholarship to a small, liberal-arts college. I continued to study hard and did well, graduating magna cum laude and receiving yet another full ride scholarship to a good law school. I worked for a few years in law-enforcement, then worked for a few years in the Public Defender's Office before going to work for one of the world's largest telecommunications companies. I carefully planned and funded a 401(k), was 'pension tracked' with the company, etc. . My personal plan envisioned me retiring in early 2015, when my pension 'vested'. 'The American Dream', right? *sigh*...

My life was going exactly as I envisioned it would go until the fall of 2008, when a series of events occurred. My 401(k) was one that you could not 're-arrange/tinker with' more than once every 6 months, and I had just done so before Wall Street began its free-fall swan dive. I stood by, powerless, while I watched as 94% of the value of my 401(k) disappeared into thin air. On Halloween Day 2008, I suffered a health crisis requiring an emergency resection of almost half of my large bowel; post-operatively, I developed MRSA in my incision, and the infection rapidly progressed into septicemia. Although I had 'good' health insurance through my employer, three-and-a-half months in the hospital, three months in a wound-care facility, three additional 'wound revision' surgeries still left me with enormous un-reimbursed medical bills and 'ordinary living expenses'. I had no choice but to cash in the remainder of my 401(k) to pay the medical bills and my 'ordinary' living expenses. While recuperating, I watched with growing fury while both the 'too big to fail' banks and the Detroit automakers received bailouts, but people like me were left to 'sink or swim'. Still, I consoled myself with he thought that I still (almost) had my pension, although retirement in 2015 was no longer an option ...

When I returned to work in October 2009, I would see the occasional memo about parts of the company being 'moved offshore' (outsourced), but was always re-assured that my division would not be affected. After a couple of years, I ceased to worry about my own job security and again began a 401(k). With absolutely no warning, everyone but the 'big bosses' in my division was laid off on August 6th, 2012-- no notice, no 'severance package', nada-- just a notice to clean out our offices by the end of the work day. To add insult to injury, my employer contested my initial unemployment application, saying that I was an 'at will, contract employee'. I won on appeal, but my bi-weekly unemployment benefits were 29% of my average total, bi-weekly income (my base salary, plus 'performance-based' bonuses). I also said goodbye to my pension, not having put in the required 20 years for it to become 'vested'. Rather than face foreclosure in a weak real-estate market, I allowed the bank to take possession of my home without an additional 'deficiency judgment' being lodged against me. There being no substantive difference in the job market between where I lived and where I had planned to eventually retire, I moved, rented a modest, affordable home and began looking for work, certain that I would be able to secure employment in fairly short order, given my education and work experience. How wrong I was ...

Despite a massive, all-out job search, I remain unemployed to this very day. I am in that 'niche' that labor economists term 'over-50 and over-qualified'. My long-term unemployment benefits were terminated on December 28th, 2013, forcing me to once again cash out my 401(k). Having rapidly exhausted that, I now rely on SNAP (Link, in Illinois) benefits and a $125/mo. 'general relief' grant from my township government. Through the generosity of my church, the local ministerial alliance, a couple of local NGO's and LIHEAP, I am not (yet) homeless, although I am behind in my rent and COULD BE evicted at any time. That I have not yet been evicted is due solely to the forbearance of my landlord, a situation I cannot see lasting much longer. What public housing there is here is full, with a 17 month-long waiting list, and Sec. 8 housing is also full. I no longer have the resources to relocate-- moving expenses, rent and utility deposits, etc.-- and daily live with the looming prospect of homelessness.

My story, sadly, is not that unusual. While Wall Street, the Detroit automakers, et al, have not only 'recovered', but prospered, millions of people, people just like me, are 'swirling the drain'. My former employer is HUGELY profitable, banking billions in un-taxed profits 'offshore', and receiving a tax refund on their billions in U.S. profits.

My story is but one example of how the middle class is being systematically destroyed in this country.

P.S.-- Thank God and President Obama for the 'Affordable Care Act'. My state accepted 'expanded Medicaid', and I at least have health insurance, with no exclusion for my 'pre-existing condition' (diverticulitis).

[KatyaR]

1. I am so very sorry about your situation.

I know that doesn't amount to anything, but I am sorry.

I am 56 as well and work for a nonprofit organization. Every day I realize more and more that anyone over the age of 40 has little value, even to an NPO, unless you have an "in" with the boss. One part of me thinks that I won't have a job much longer (for a number of reasons), and the other part of me refuses to even consider the alternatives. I have had some hard times in my life in the past as well, and I'm afraid how much further I could fall than I did back then.

I would say "hang in there," but I think you already are.

[ColesCountyDem]

2. Thank you!

I am, indeed, hanging there. When you reach the end of the proverbial rope, you have two choices: let go, or tie a knot and hang on for dear life. I've chosen the latter, because I'm stubborn that way.

[xfundy]

3. We have a lot in common.

I had an accident in '05, was given MRSA during surgery, had to have a second surgery to get rid of that -- and they infected me with something else, so yet another surgery and lots of chemicals. Plus more stuff I don't want to get into, including generalized anxiety disorder, panic attacks and major depression.

[ColesCountyDem]

6. I'm so very sorry!

I have some additional health problems-- mainly orthopedic in nature, and resulting in chronic pain-- and have also been recently diagnosed with 'moderate, clinical depression'. Both my PCP and my orthopedic surgeon have recently asked (not 'suggested') if I had ever though about applying for SS Disability. I hadn't considered it and haven't yet done so, but I am mulling it over.

[lunasun]

30. if this is an option do it and sounds like docs are willing to sign -my cousin was sick

and did not want to admit his career was over for health reasons he went down too far before he got to applying imo it took a while but he finally got it and can afford rent etc.
best of luck on your application

[abakan]

104. Don't mull it!

Do it! It is yours to take, you paid for it and now you need it...

[sendero]

17. I have a "dumb" question..

..... I realize that the MRSA problem is big and getting bigger. My question is this: if you contract MRSA as the result of a surgical procedure, CAN'T YOU SUE THE PANTS OFF THE HOSPITAL?

Because this is not going to stop until hospitals have a financial incentive to end this problem.

[ColesCountyDem]

18. The short answer is 'no'.

Because MRSA is so widespread in hospitals-- even the 'best' have infection rates in the mid to upper single digits-- proving negligence is almost impossible.

[sendero]

20. How could it be impossible.....

... when hospitals is the only place these infections are happening. If it ever happened to me, I'm getting a barracuda attorney and a jury trial, and I will win.

[mackerel]

29. Its hard to fight my mother got it and she's the

baddest ass attorney around.

[Agony]

36. hospitals aren't the only place...

artificial turf and football teams
http://www.aaos.org/news/bulletin/oct07/clinical1.asp

"
Infections spike in 2003
Unfortunately, the cSSTI rate surged during the 2003 USC football season. Seventeen of the 107 players on the team presented with MRSA-like infections—all requiring surgical incision and drainage. Eleven players were later confirmed as being infected with MRSA, and six of the 11 were hospitalized. Another six players had probable cases, with abscesses requiring incision and drainage, but no cultures were performed.
"
this has happened nationwide

pretty interesting...

[sendero]

68. Fair enough...

... but if I just got out of the hospital for surgery and I was not an athlete or had any of the other common risk factors, I'm pretty sure I could convince a jury I got it at the hospital. Pretty sure.

[CTyankee]

66. I had surgery in 2007 to prevent a repeat of a bad diverticulitis attack happening a second time and

had a complication (scar tissue blocking anything from staying down) and had surgery to clear that up. Then I developed an infection and was told it was not uncommon for there to be such risk when dealing with intestinal surgeries. I was in the hospital for 6 weeks and rehab for 2, then recuperation at home and finally my gut healed. I had lost 30+ lbs and not-small amount of digestive tissue in my small intestine. My doc told me that as a result I would never be really fat (be careful what you wish for).

I feel like I lost six months of my life...

[mackerel]

4. Try applying for Social Security.

when you get denied do not fool around go to a social security disability attorney before your 60 days are up. now that you were over 55 you grid out and you most likely meet a listing.

[pnwmom]

5. Good advice. And I've also heard that most people are denied the first time,

even if they will get approved eventually. So people should persist.

[mackerel]

28. 90% are denied on their first application.

[lululu]

105. yes, try again

From what I've heard, the first application for SS disability is not that likely to succeed, but appeals often do. Do it now.

signed,

another highly qualified, well experienced, hard worker who wound up in the dust heap in her 50s.

[ColesCountyDem]

8. Jinx! *grin*

While I was typing post #6, you made your post. A former legal colleague told me yesterday that the rules were greatly relaxed for people 55 and over, and suggested that if I do apply, to do so with the assistance of an attorney from the start. She said that the number of first-time applications that are approved the first time around is 70+%, with an attorney.

[freshwest]

15. Yes, this is true. The unions have won this battle quietly. Many people in pain from work or illness

are getting their SS without all the grief they were put through in the Bush era, or before then.

It was one of the things Obama did early on that had the GOP in a tizzy and they said he was going to break SS by taking in all the early retirees - the disabled.

I've seen in going to these things a great change in the tone there. The staff acts as customer service and not adversaries. So of course the GOP cut their budget to slow down processing and deny people their needs.

Hang in there, we know it's a hell of a ride. I don't talk about it but I know how shredding it is to everything in one's life. You're not alone on this path.

Best wishes for you, CCD. I remember some of your posts some time back and am glad you're still here.

[passiveporcupine]

57. When you stop and think about it

easing up access to SSD was the best move anyone could make. We take care of the older "unemployable" sicker people with SS and Medicare or Medicaid, and let the few open jobs go to the young people entering the job market. Otherwise, we just have a lot more unemployed homeless people hanging around, young and old.

[freshwest]

71. Yes, it was... And it's why the media and the GOP went bonkers. They want us to fail. n/t

[SammyWinstonJack]

16. My husband applied when he was 58 and was approved within six weeks without the assistance of an

attorney.


He gathered all his medical records together, made an appointment at the local SS office, had an interview and was told there would be no problem with his claim and was even given an approx. benefit amount.

You should apply asap.

Good Luck!

[pnwmom]

7. It's too bad that the people who really need to read this probably never will --

the people who don't understand how a hardworking, highly intelligent person can find themselves in trouble through no fault of their own-- just a series of terrible circumstances.

You are a strong person, ColesCountyDem, and you seem to have people near who care about you. I'm sorry you have to go through this but I think you'll find a path through all this.

[ColesCountyDem]

9. Thank you!

You're correct on both counts: the people who need to read this likely never will, and I am so VERY lucky to have a strong 'support network' of friends.

[Warpy]

10. Some people can't even blame a health crisis

They went to the right school and grad school, studied hard, graduated with honors and went to work for the "right" corporation and were on the fast track to upper management. Then the corporation either got bought by a predatory outfit like Bain or it bit off more than it could chew in buying another outfit or the management was engaged in outright fraud like they were at Enron. 401Ks were frozen until after the executives had cashed out and the whole thing went tits up. Not only did their carefully planned retirements evaporate overnight, but their entire career path did as for some reason their skills weren't at the top of the resume page, their being associated with a massive failure was.

IOW, you've got a lot of company out there, people who did the right things and got shafted like poor people have been shafted for a long time. Upper middle class people have got to know they're as disposable as the homeless guys waiting outside Home Depot, hoping for a day of grunt work so they can afford another day of food and maybe even a clean pair of socks.

We are the 99%, all of us, whether we're making that McMansion salary or scraping by on a wait staff job. We can all be thrown out on the street like garbage and we know circumstances can keep us there.

I just hope the chill is finally creeping into the upper middle class consciousness. An economy that only works for billionaires is killing us all.

[ColesCountyDem]

11. From your keyboard to America's ears!

Well said!

[kairos12]

12. I am appalled by what has happened to you. The is a modern day version of "The Grapes of Wrath".

[MadrasT]

13. I am so sorry all this happened to you.

Your story is not unique and I know there but for the grace of god (or whatever) go I.

The state of society today makes me feel great despair.

It is all wrong, and I don't know what to do to make it better.

[pnwmom]

14. Kicked

[cantbeserious]

19. All The Best To You - Good Luck Moving Forward

eom

[ballyhoo]

21. Jesus, I cannot believe the misfortune

you have had. It is as if fate is against you. I wish you the very best of luck in the future. One thing, you do write well. Do you have a book in you about your horrible situation? There must be something out there for you.

[blue14u]

22. I'm so sorry this happened to you...

I too have story to tell of well doing, to hanging

on by my last thread.. What we need to do to stop this rape of the

middle class, and those coming behind, (our children), must finally stop..

We cannot let this continue. Speak up.. speak out..

Take action where you can. Get your SS.. Don't put it off ....

You can then have money to fight back better with the resources..

I'm almost down to living in a tent to have something over me to sleep in besides my

automobile...

I don't recognize this world anymore..



#VOTEBLUE2014

[LiberalEsto]

23. I am speechless.

Last edited Wed Apr 23, 2014, 01:04 PM - Edit history (1)

This country is no longer about taking care of its citizens. It's pretty much all about taking care of its corporations and the 1%.

So sorry for what you've been going through. I hope something good happens for you soon.

[totodeinhere]

24. You were treated like dirt by your former employer. I wish you would name this company

so we can know who those assholes are. Please do not protect them with anonymity after what they have done to you. They don't deserve any considerations from you.

[LoisB]

25. I am so sorry. I agree with Mackerel, try social security disability and much good luck

to you.

[toby jo]

26. I'm sorry, Coles. I've been laid pretty low myself from time to time.

It feels like life is a lesson in 'how to be a shark because they always win' sometimes.

It's pretty hard to keep your values up. I look at my parents world and wonder did they and the generations before them give up hope late in life when they'd been run over so many times? We're definitely back in the day where when things fail, it's tough shit on you. And the big guys feed on.

Here's how I see it. It could be worse, you could be one of them. Instead, you've chosen wisely, lived well and honorably, and that is soul food. They can never buy, with all of their money, what it is that you intrinsically are. That's the truth I live by.

[Sancho]

27. As I read your story (and we're about the same age), I couldn't help thinking...

My wife and I moved twice in our 30's, and came to Florida so we both could work under Collective Bargaining Agreements and are represented by unions! We both are graduate trained and left good jobs in SC and GA where we were completely at the mercy of employers for layoff, firing, and heath care. Growing up working in textile mills and some early teaching jobs taught us that we only wanted to work for union jobs.

My union is at impasse now while bargaining a new contract, and my wife's is solid, but the point is that unions bargain defined benefit retirements, high option heath care, and lay off provisions. We are much more protected from the whims of a 401k, health care costs, and lay off without buy out. If you worked for either of our employers, you would have been less vulnerable.

As we navigate our years leading up to retirement, my wife's union won a judgement of age discrimination and she was one of a bunch who got raises and back pay. And this is an anti-union, right-to-work state with a crazy tea party governor and completely GOP state legislature!! There's real power in organizing.

I really was sorry to hear about your problems, and I hope you find something soon. If you are lucky, you can work for a company with a strong union.

[mackerel]

31. @ColesCountyDem let me know if you

have any questions about applying for SSA/SSI. Like someone else mentioned here you will probably get it without a denial
as you have sufficient evidence and having gone to Law School you will know how to prep. It's really important the you are
presently treating and seeing a doctor regularly. Also keep a list of all the positions/places you've applied. You definitely meet the listings but if you're unemployable and over 55 that also matters. Good Luck and remember we're on your side!

[Samantha]

32. I too am really, really sorry about your situation

As someone who worked in the legal community in Washington, DC for decades, I walked away from a very rewarding job (the best one financially I had ever had) because my blood pressure skyrocketed 50 points my last year there. Having a history of heart problems in my family, both my parents had suffered an early sudden death, as had my sister 13 months older than I, and my brother two years younger had had an emergency operation the year before for one completely closed artery to his heart, I listened to my doctor's words when she said, "You are the perfect target for a heart attack or stroke and you must get your stress under control." Thus in 2007, I left.

It was so hard at first, but each year has gotten a little better. And being an optimist, I believe every year from hereon out will do the same. It is a slow but steady progress.

I emptied out my 401(k) earlier and started putting in an apartment in the basement of my home. I paid contractors to do the heavy-lifting, but I did a lot of the work myself. I had gone through the same process you describe, and although I had an impressive resume (as I was told by many firms), no one offered me a job. They were looking for younger people who they could pay less. And so I realized the only way I could support myself was through my rental apartment downstairs, starting a small business of my own, renting out my home in West Virginia and trying to hold on until my Social Security washed in at 62.

Today I have a lot less money to work with but a lot less stress. My blood pressure is back to normal, and I no longer take medicine to control it.

The advice I have for you you probably will not like, but it is the only avenue I can see for you to be whole again. You can only count on yourself for a job. Take your law license and start your own practice. Start out small with wills, divorces, tasks such as that that do not require a lot of resources. Work up from there.

The only one you can count on is you. I know this because I discovered the only one in this economy I can count on is me. I was not an attorney in the legal arena (so YOU have a bigger advantage than I), but I had very responsible positions in prestigious firms. One of my former bosses works for the President, and several others handled very high profile clients and matters. It doesn't matter squat, though. Even with great references, I can only rely on myself to get by. I believe the same goes for just about everyone else out there who is not wealthy.

I wish you luck in your future, and I hope you find a way to restore your life.

The very best of regards,

Sam

[taught_me_patience]

33. How did you lose 94% of your 401k?

The S&P lost about 50% of it's value. Bonds were ok. At 50, you should have been allocating more to bonds than stocks for downside protection. Most people I know lost 25-40% of their 401k portfolio value in the market crash of 2008. Something is off about your story.

[ColesCountyDem]

35. It was heavily tilted toward stocks.

The very thing that caused its healthy growth also caused its rapid decline. Stupid, maybe, but not 'off' at all.

[spooky3]

38. How were you not 100% vested in the pension plan?

Federal law requires corporate employees to be fully vested in their accrued benefits after no more than 6 or 7 years.

It doesn't mean you would get the same accrued benefit as you would if you continued to work until 65, but you can't forfeit benefits already earned.

http://www.irs.gov/Retirement-Plans/Plan-Participant,-Employee/Retirement-Topics---Vesting

[ColesCountyDem]

39. That applies to pension plans to which both my employer and I contribute.

My pension was entirely employer funded, with no employee contributions. Not being a tax expert, I consulted with an attorney who is also a CPA, and who specializes in retirement- and estate planning, etc. . Under the pension plan's terms in place at the time I began working for the company, AND the then-applicable IRS rules, I was not 'vested' in the pension plan. If you believe his advice to be incorrect, please advise me via DU mail of the name of a attorney or law firm who would be willing to file suit on my behalf on a contingency basis.

Thank you.

[spooky3]

43. I do believe his advice to be incorrect. The relevant law is the law at the time you were

Last edited Wed Apr 23, 2014, 12:46 PM - Edit history (1)

terminated from service, not when you began. Plans had to be amended to comply with the law as it changed over time. The major pension law amendments (requiring no more than 10-15 years for full vesting) were provided by ERISA in 1974. Since that time, statutes further amending the body of pension law have required MORE generous vesting to employees. These laws apply regardless of whether employees contribute to the plan, though where employees contribute they are always 100% vested in the accrued benefit derived from their own contributions.

I am not an attorney, but I worked for the IRS many years back, specializing the pension area. So unfortunately I am not connected to be able to give you a referral to an attorney, but I hope some of the info below can be helpful. I notice also that another poster provided some very good info for you.

How many years of service did you have when you terminated?

Please see the link I provided, which goes directly to the IRS explanation, which also links the relevant technical information. There is also an IRS publication specifically addressing pension plans.

The only possible exception I can think of is for collectively bargained plans in the private sector. If that is what your employer had, you can probably research this online to determine if your plan was exempt from the minimum vesting standards or if different rules apply. However, the pension law is complex and there may be something else unique to your plan that I can't possibly know about.

You should have received a "layperson's language" description of your plan, which should include a description of the vesting rules followed in the plan. You could also contact the IRS (Employee Plans Division) or Department of Labor to see if they can help, though they are so underfunded and understaffed, they may not be able to do so. In the past, the IRS agents were responsible for the initial approval of the plan documents (required for the plan to qualify for the favorable tax treatment) and to audit the plans in operation. You may have a right to get a copy of the full plan document from IRS. The DOL was responsible for certain other aspects of enforcement in operation. But this may have changed over time.

See also these links:

http://www.irs.gov/Retirement-Plans
http://news.wolterskluwerlb.com/news/irs-employee-plans-unveils-operating-priorities-for-fy-2013/
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/411

On edit, here's another link that could be helpful:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p4962.pdf

"A basic requirement to keep in mind for the vesting standards
is that each participant’s vested interest must satisfy the
statutory minimum at all times."

Good luck. You have my sympathy. But if you have time and access to a connected computer, you can research the situation (without an attorney).

[ColesCountyDem]

76. This is VERY useful information.

Thank you! I hope I didn't come across as 'bickering' with you, and if I did, I apologize. I'm both frightened and frustrated about my current situation, and tend to be a WEE bit 'touchy', at times.

Again, thank you! I will be contacting another attorney about this.

[antigop]

81. There are FREE resources available to you

http://www.pensionrights.org/find-help

Posted again below in case you missed it.

You may have an annuity that is owed to you.

[spooky3]

86. You're welcome and no problem. But as others have said,

With your training you should be able to get definitive answers yourself, by researching the situation on the web and obtaining and reading the documents you need. If at that point you feel you need to find an attorney, you can make things much easier and possibly cheaper for yourself by having "all your ducks in a row."

It still isn't clear how many years of service you had but we'll leave that to you.

One other possible complication is if you has breaks in service or worked part time for any of those years. But since you didn't mention that I assumed that was not the case.

Also, many plans provide an early retirement benefit at age 55. Participants are fully vested then, though the benefit is actuarially reduced.

[ColesCountyDem]

88. Based on what I read, and my own knowledge of my employment with MegaCorp X, ...

... I've contacted an attorney. He couldn't make any promises, of course, but did say that he thought it 'likely' that he can help me. Wish us both luck, please!

[spooky3]

93. Good luck to you both!!!!

[ColesCountyDem]

95. Thank you!

[spooky3]

102. Coles, be sure to update us!

I hope you can meet with the attorney soon and that s/he can help.

[joeglow3]

74. That still doesn't explain how you lost 94%.

The market was off 40-50%.

[ColesCountyDem]

75. On *average* it was.

Specific stocks, particularly many that produced high rates of return, were off by more than that.

[joeglow3]

82. What the hell company lets individuals invest in individual stocks in their 401(k)?

Unless it is their own and that is stupid.

[ColesCountyDem]

83. Edward D. Jones, actually.

The 'financial advisor' in the office I used has since been terminated, and has also run afoul of the law for various financial crimes of his own. I do feel stupid, in retrospect, for following his 'expert' advice.

Until 2005, I had spread my investments among T-Bills, CD's-- 50% of my total 401(k)-- blue-chips (40%), medium risk (40%) and high risk (20%). Had I ignored his advice, I wouldn't be in the predicament I'm in. Life lesson: trust your 'gut instinct'.

[joeglow3]

84. I feel for you

I would argue that is borderline negligent of the company to allow that.

[ColesCountyDem]

85. As a result of the good advice and information I've received here, I've contacted an attorney.

He can't make any specific promises, of course, but he did say that he thought it 'likely' he could help me.

[mwooldri]

103. My employer (who will go nameless here) allows me that option.

Our retirement/401k plans are administered through Wells Fargo. As part of the deal, Wells Fargo can open up for me a "Self Directed Brokerage Account". Once opened, I can transfer money from my 401k plan in the "investment funds" into this brokerage account. Then I could pick and choose my investments down to a particular company stock.

Needless to say, I don't have that kind of experience or confidence to go in and pick my own stocks. In any case, the law is that you cannot have more than 10% of your 401k invested in your employers' stock. Yes, I do own some of my employers' stock through the 401k plan, but not 10%.

[Laelth]

34. k&r for the truth, however depressing it may be. n/t

-Laelth

[antigop]

37. when you say your pension "vested" in 2015, are you referring to your 401(k), or

did you have a defined benefit pension plan in addition to the 401(k)?

Sorry, I'm not understanding what you are saying about your pension "vesting". You said, " I also said goodbye to my pension, not having put in the required 20 years for it to become 'vested'."

It shouldn't take 20 years to become "vested" in a 401(k) or a defined benefit pension.

See the following;
http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/publications/wyskapr.html

How soon do you have a right to your accumulated benefits?

You immediately vest in your own contributions and the earnings on them. This means you have earned the right to these amounts without the risk of forfeiting them. But note – there are restrictions on actually taking them out of the plan. See the discussion on the rules for distributions later in this guide.

However, you do not necessarily have an immediate right to any contributions made by your employer. Federal law provides a maximum number of years a company may require employees to work to earn the vested right to all or some of these benefits. (See tables below showing the vesting rules.)

In a defined benefit plan, an employer can require that employees have 5 years of service in order to become 100 percent vested in the employer funded benefits (called cliff vesting). Employers also can choose a graduated vesting schedule, which requires an employee to work 7 years in order to be 100 percent vested, but provides at least 20 percent vesting after 3 years, 40 percent after 4 years, 60 percent after 5 years, and 80 percent after 6 years of service. The permitted vesting schedules for current defined benefit plans are shown in Table 3 below. Plans may provide a different schedule as long as it is more generous than these vesting schedules. (Unlike most defined benefit plans, in a cash balance plan, employees vest in employer contributions after 3 years.)

In a defined contribution plan such as a 401(k) plan, you are always 100 percent vested in your own contributions to a plan, and in any subsequent earnings from your contributions. However, in most defined contribution plans you may have to work several years before you are vested in the employer’s matching contributions. (There are exceptions, such as the SIMPLE 401(k) and safe harbor 401(k), in which you are immediately vested in all required employer contributions. You also vest immediately in the SIMPLE IRA and the SEP.)

Currently, employers have a choice of two different vesting schedules for employer matching 401(k) contributions, which are shown in Table 2. Your employer may use a schedule in which employees are 100 percent vested in employer contributions after 3 years of service (cliff vesting). Under graduated vesting, an employee must be at least 20 percent vested after 2 years, 40 percent after 3 years, 60 percent after 4 years, 80 percent after 5 years, and 100 percent after 6 years. If your automatic enrollment 401(k) plan requires employer contributions, you vest in those contributions after 2 years. Automatic enrollment 401(k) plans with optional matching contributions follow one of the vesting schedules noted above.

Employers making other contributions to defined contribution plans, such as a 401(k) plan, also can choose between two vesting schedules. For those contributions made since 2007, they can choose between the graduated and cliff vesting schedules in Table 2. For contributions made prior to 2007, they can choose between the schedules provided in Table 3.

You may lose some of the employer-provided benefits you have earned if you leave your job before you have worked long enough to be vested. However, once vested, you have the right to receive the vested portion of your benefits even if you leave your job before retirement. But even though you have the right to certain benefits, your defined contribution plan account value could decrease after you leave your job as a result of investment performance.

[ColesCountyDem]

40. Please see post #39.

My 401(k) had nothing to do with my employer.

[antigop]

50. So you had a defined benefit pension plan IN ADDITION to your 401(k)?

If so, then 20 years of service should qualify you for an annuity from your defined benefit pension, according the DOL website I referenced.

Seriously, look into it.

[ColesCountyDem]

77. I will, and thank you!

See post #76.

[antigop]

80. ColesCounty, there are FREE resources available to you

Check these out....
http://www.pensionrights.org/find-help

[CrispyQ]

41. Your story is a little long for a letter to the editor (LTTE),

but some papers have special commentary sections on Sundays or in their business section. I think there are so many in your situation but the right wing/media has conditioned everyone to believe that the long term unemployed are lazy moochers, so people don't speak out. Check out your local paper & see if there is a place for your story.

America is a harsh country. We've always had our flaws but we didn't use to be this mean.

Good luck, CCD.

[ColesCountyDem]

87. I was contacted just this morning by a reporter for our regional 'daily'.

Last edited Thu Apr 24, 2014, 01:57 PM - Edit history (1)

She is going to write a series on the long-term unemployed, and some how saw this post as a result of someone here sharing it on Twitter. She is keeping everyone she interviews 'anonymous', but she wants to help dispel the 'lazy moocher/freeloader' meme that's so prevalent.

[hfojvt]

42. I don't think your story is typical

and also don't know why you rage at the survival of General Motors.

You had two health crises. That's probably not typical. In earlier times you probably would already be dead instead of just unable to retire.

That Detroit automakers have prospered, also means 70,000 jobs in the United States, from GM alone, not to mention jobs of suppliers and parts manufacturers. You are angry that those were not flushed down the drain?

And if the banks had not been saved, it is likely that we ALL would be in your position, instead of just a relative few. We need a working financial system.

Being unable to find work in over a year is also NOT typical. It's a tough spot, but not typical in America. There are 3 million people who have been unemployed longer than 52 weeks, but more typical, there are 139.5 million people who have jobs. The 3 million are perhaps in a tough spot, but the 139 million are more typical of an average American.

You've had some hard luck lately and that sucks, although you also had many years of good pay (which you do not mention how much you were making).

There are certainly no easy answers when it comes to job hunting, although on the other side, my brother is getting slammed at work because he lost a lot of people. So he's kinda desperate to hire people.

[AtheistCrusader]

44. Seriously.

Congress simply isn't going to fix the labor market. Nobody's holding them to it, no massive public works, no jobs programs, trimming unemployment, you name it.

There are jobs out there, but since the job market/environment isn't being supported in any way, you're going to have to adapt. That means taking ANY job that you can perform. That means public defender's office, law enforcement, tap any and all skills you have.

The safety net just ain't there anymore. The final safety net is your own flexibility. Even if it means starting over in your 50's.

The problem (unemployment) ain't going away. There are still some things that can help, but the only thing with any power to help your situation now, is you.


But thank you for sharing all of that. Your story, and millions more like it, SHOULD be the motivation we need to politically re-build those safety nets. I don't know why it's not happening, but thank you for sharing, one more voice showing WHY we need such safety nets.

[hfojvt]

46. okay that was not a reply meant for me

but I already did that in the 1990s.

I have an MA.

The only reason I got the MA was because I could not find another job with my BA - any job, much less a "good" job.

That's what I get for majoring in math.

Then after getting my MA in 1990, I taught for one year for $8,100 part-time. I could have taught full time, but that would have meant a 50 mile commute and I did not own a car at the time. I lived without a car until 1996.

By June of 1991, I had $12,000 in the bank and decided to start my own used bookstore. Rented a building on the edge of downtown (in a town of 5,000) and then moved to the downtown in November 1991.

In December 1992 my landlord went broke and the bank took over the building. They wouldn't sell to me OR give me a lease, so I bought the bulding next door and got a job at a local factory to help pay for it. I started work in the factory in February 1993 thinking I would only work there until October when my business would begin supporting me.

HA.

In January 1995 I gave notice at the factory and asked if I could stay on part time. They let me. Until they laid me off on 28 March 1995, my 33rd birthday. Because I owned a business, my unemployment was denied (but one of my co-workers got his checks even when he was in the county jail).

The winter of 1995-96 I got a job shovelling snow. Figured it was time to close the store that was not supporting me, had a going out of business sale and started looking for jobs. Found one in March 1996 that was 23 miles away, paying $6 an hour or piece rate which averaged seven. Opened my store on the weekends because I still had lots of inventory.

Then the bar down the street hired me as a part-time janitor for $5.50 an hour. Figured that was better than two hours of commuting AND it allowed me to re-open my store.

So there I was with an MA, made $9,316 in 1993, $12,340 in 1994, $3,109 in 1995 and $5,529 in 1996 before I move to the big time, makine $10,295 in 1997!!!

In 1998, I sold the store and moved. Could only find temp jobs in Iowa, but the new Governor, Democrat Tom Vilsack was worried about a future labor shortage.

Was there a jobs program? Was there a safety net for me?

I got sick of reading how "great" the economy was when all I could get, at age 37 was a temp job with no benefits. The economy was not that great for everybody, but all the media and the politicians wanted to talk about was the record low unemployment rate.

Other than the job I quickly got fired from because I am bad at sales, I could not find a full time job until May of 2004.

I had 13 years where I made a total of $124,278. Living the American dream in the 1990s.

[AtheistCrusader]

52. I flipped a mental coin.

It's really meant for the OP, but I also wanted to agree with your take at the same time. Kind of a portmanteau of posting.

[pnwmom]

47. In the case of the OP, he wrote about a very extensive job search.

You might not be aware, but there is a major oversupply of lawyers -- at every level and for every type of job -- that the law schools are happy to keep making worse.

He also wrote in other posts about additional health issues that have been impacting his life.

[AtheistCrusader]

53. And the poster's relocation funds are low/gone.

Most unfortunate, because relocation might help. I found 6 open federal legal positions in the King County (Wa) area alone, though 2 were part time. (I was looking for public defenders, though the OP didn't say he or she was actually a public defender, just specified they worked in a PD office.)


I agree, Law Schools are minting way too many. Not helping.

[hfojvt]

61. I heard about an over-supply of lawyers

back in the 1980s.

But just as a math major can work as a janitor or a factory temp, so too, a lawyer can work at some other kind of job.

Back in 1986 I was a GS-9, and was promised two more annual promotions, and I foolishly decided to jump off the good job train.

Found it impossible to get back on.

I make decent money now, but not compared to the young GS-9 that I was. GS-9s make $20.11 an hour and GS-12s make $29.17 an hour, to say nothing of the step increases I would get. One guy said I would probably be a 14 by now. Yeah, $40.99 an hour.

And I would hit the magic number 85 in about three years too.

[Patiod]

48. Everyone's employment niche is different

My guess is that cuts to local govts + oversupply of lawyers = lousy job market because the Public Defenders' office is one of the first places that local governments cut when the squeeze goes on.

In addition, the law schools are graduating way more lawyers than are needed, meaning that there are a glut of hungry kids who will work for peanuts to get a foot on the ladder (I've heard some of their stories firsthand).

Once you're over 50, everyone's job market is different - employers look at your experience, and you're either a fit or you're not. They're very exacting, and don't want to train (or re-train) anyone. They don't understand how much job experience is transferrable, either.

I was reading my own industry newsletter, and it basically said "the job outlook is bleak unless you have deep and broad experience in the X industry". By a lucky mix of fate and geography, that's my industry, and I've never had a problem finding work. But had I specialized in ANY other industry, I'd be SOL and all but unhirable due to my age, even though my experience in A,B,C or D would transfer easily to X.

[CTyankee]

67. My son had the good fortune to have the then Brooklyn, NY DA teach one of his law school courses.

The DA took a shine to my son and told him to call him when he graduated from law school, which my son did. He started as a very junior ADA and is now a senior prosecutor. They went through a job freeze at one point but of course there always have to be prosecutors to put the bad guys away and my son had a great track record of convictions. He says he'll never work in the private sector. He has great medical and retirement benefits and while certainly not rich, he and his wife and my grandson are managing on their 2 salaries to live in a co-op apt. in Manhattan. I cannot tell you what a relief it is to me!

[TBF]

45. That's the thing - his story IS typical

the blue collar workers went through it in the 80s. Now it is hitting the professional class.

As far as his "years of good pay" - he explained that. He put $$$ in 401K and lost most of it with the crash. As many people did. In-house lawyers do not make that much money and are expendable. I know a lot about the legal industry as I worked in it for many years and my husband is still there.

And as far as your anecdotes let's hear about your "brother" and his multiple job openings. Where are the details?

[Patiod]

49. One of my good friends is incredibly frugal

And lost a huge chunk of her savings in the crash. She is lucky that she diversified and lived well below her means, but it still hurt, and called her to question the whole point, when she saw people who had pissed away their money in the same financial situation (and she had chosen to live frugally in order to save).

[TBF]

51. It is really hard to watch -

it was hard in the 80s and it's hard now.

I watched a Tonight Show (I think it was - can't remember if it was Leno specifically) or similar with Bill Clinton speaking a couple of years ago. He was introspective and explained that he thought that the Baby Boomers were basically a hurdle to get over and then things would calm down again in this country. That is really basically what he said. I think he was speaking in a very intellectual way and didn't mean to make light of it (he is in this group after all), but was explaining that we are under a cash crunch now but as the Boomers retire those jobs will open up for young folks. While that is probably true to some degree, and people transition to technology (learning it in the schools now etc) they may not necessarily have trouble finding jobs when they come out in 15 years. My kids are that age and I suspect he is right - they are very technology savvy, like math and science, and I suspect it will not be so bad for them.

It makes sense with a couple of caveats. (1) The baby boomers don't have as much money/inheritance as he thinks & it's obviously being siphoned off by the banks, insurance companies etc. in various ways and (2) with unbridled capitalism the climate change is so bad that we may not make it another 50 years if drastic changes aren't made NOW.

I think we're in more trouble collectively than many people will acknowledge. People like to be optimistic - it makes getting up in the morning easier. But it is hard to be optimistic when you're staring at facts that aren't very positive.

[BlindTiresias]

58. No its bad for young people too

Those tech jobs that were great in Clinton's time have experienced wage depression and unless you are a developer you are in for mediocre pay and poor upward mobility.

[TBF]

60. That makes sense unfortunately -

along with global competition for jobs.

And yet we continue to bang the war drum rather than figure out how to shore up our economy. Maybe that IS the plan - continual war.

[hfojvt]

59. but you do NOT lose savings in a crash

not unless the whole financial system crashes - which it almost did.

Investing is not the same as saving.

Further, you only lose money in a crash if you are foolish enough to sell (unless you made very, very bad investments).

Since I put some money back in the market in 2009, I have had some HUGE losses - on paper. But if my stock goes down, I generally just buy more and wait for it to go back up.

[Patiod]

65. That's an excellent point.

My discussions with her happened right after the crash - she's probably recovered nicely by now.

[TBF]

69. I think that was the really sad thing about 401K -

unsophisticated people were convinced by Reagan that they were all going to be "owners" and put their eggs in one basket (or as you said are incredibly bad investors - which is not difficult to believe given that many would have no education in this area). If you buy stock and hold over the long-term you'll likely be fine according to most gurus, but people get scared when they see numbers go up/down. Also many may have little other savings - sad but true.

This is why Social Security is so, so important and should not be raided by the republicans to finance future wars. I feel it should be a lock box. Because there are always going to be those people who can't save, won't save etc... - you don't have to give them all mansions at age 65 or 70 - but a basic check each month so they can get by. Putting it all in the stock market would be devastating just for this reason. People like you are going to be fine because you seem to be thoughtful and will have your own little nest egg plus SS. Not everyone is so astute but I still don't want to see them sleeping on the street.

[pnwmom]

72. When people sell in that situation it isn't usually because they're "foolish."

It's because they need funds and don't have another source.

[ColesCountyDem]

79. That was my situation.

Had I been able to leave my 401(k) alone, I would have done so, because I know it would likely have regained a large percentage of its worth. Unfortunately, at the time I cashed out, it was at rock bottom and I had no other source of 'ready cash'.

[ColesCountyDem]

89. That was my situation, too.

I knew that if I left my 401(k) alone, it would eventually recover some, or even most, of it's pre-crash value. Unfortunately, circumstances dictated that I cash out when I did, because it was the only cash I had, or could get.

[hfojvt]

64. a couple job openings are not really a universal solution

and I don't believe a story like his was typical of the 1980s either. Like the 1970s were some glory years for good paying jobs.

In 1965 the poverty rate was 13.9%. That fell in the 1970s to 9.1% in 1978, but it's not like there was NO poverty and full employment and every job paid a living wage with full benefits.

It's always been possible for one, or thousands, of people to have a health crisis and fall from the upper middle class.

Presumably the OP would be okay with a $12 an hour job even if it is much less than he/she is used to. Many millions of people in this country don't make that much. Some are making less than $9 an hour.

[ColesCountyDem]

91. I would 'knee cap' someone's grandmother for a $12/hour job! (j/k)

[ColesCountyDem]

78. I didn't mean to slam GM or the banks.

I agree that their survival was critical. My point was that average Americans-- 'Joe Six Pack', if you will-- should also have been helped to recover to the same degree. Extended unemployment benefits, HARP, the ACA, etc., helped some, but not enough. I blame the GOP for blocking the President's attempts to help average Americans more than he was able to do so, and give him full credit for trying to do so (public works bills, etc.).

[lululu]

106. his story is typical

for those of us over 50. even for people somewhat younger than that. The killer is that once you reach a certain age you are unemployable regardless of education, training, or ability.

Do post the name of your brother's company that is hiring and having trouble finding people. Around here places that have maybe twenty openings get literally a couple thousand applications.

[maddiemom]

54. Two headlines on the front page of the New York Times today (4/23/14).

"U.S. Middle Class No Longer the World's Richest" and "Sherpas Delay Everest Climbs in Labor Fight." As the world turns...

[Enthusiast]

55. Sorry about your misfortune, ColesCountryDem.

What a country!

[SpankMe]

56. I'm both sorry and angry to hear this story.

I'm sorry that you're going through this and that most of what befalls you isn't your fault. I wish you all the strength in the world as you continue to seek remedy from these setbacks.

And I'm also angry to hear that these things happen to someone who is educated, intelligent (clearly), productive, articulate and playing by all the rules that society has established for living the basic middle-class life.

Stories like this really worry me as I am 50 and am working in a well paying job with a savings plan, medical coverage, the whole thing...but where younger people are being hired all the time. Layoffs are now a bi-annual event where we see older, higher paid people like me getting cut and the younger ones being retained. I still have a mortgage, two kids in high school, and a mother in law who needs occasional support - which I am happy to provide. I can see all that turning around with the stroke of our CEO's pen.

[truedelphi]

62. Sorry that such a crappy thing happened to you.

What I was told when I first recounted a similar story is the following:
A) I made it up

B) I should have put aside even more money, like this or that DU'er stated that they had done, so that a double, triple or quadruple whammy would have left my household unscathed.

It's all up to us, don't you know. Pull ourselves up by the bootstraps like real Americans.

Oh and don't bother blaming anyone in Congress with a D after their names, either. As they are angels and if you blame them, well, you know, racism. And you know, blaming them indicates you don't understand understand how the Republicans have tormented them, stonewalled them, etc. (Although Democrats held the House and the Senate with a majority from Jan 2007 to Jan 2011, and what my household got in return was a huge rate of increase in postal rates for our small company.)

Your story is indeed a tale of how "the middle class is being systematically destroyed in this country. " But it does take both parties to undertake that destruction, and a whole lot of loyalists to keep the two parties afloat.

[GoCubsGo]

63. I'm sorry. Swirling the drain here, too.

I'm pretty much in the same boat. Except that I live a state where the human refuse that is my governor refused the Medicare expansion. So, I don't even have health insurance. My dad is helping me with my bills, and I just need to get off my ass and try to sell my house.

[neffernin]

70. :(

I am just under 30 and consider myself more than lucky to be educated and employed at a good position. I believe that hard work and intelligence attributed to my success up to this point, but I also believe that luck, being a white male, government assistance and having the mobility that only someone who has little family can afford greatly attributed as well. It was not easy to get here, and I hold a higher opinion of myself than I should. I can only imagine how it is for the disenfranchised, the forgotten, and those of any minority* can do. (*women being included, because for whothe@#$@#knows reason far too many treat them like a minority)

Both of my parents struggled their whole lives and neither of them earned enough money to own cars that were newer than 10 years old let alone dream of home ownership or a retirement. They were both capable people who never got a chance.

Your story is a sad one, and I'm glad that the ACA is available for you. At least our government has gotten that one right, even if it isn't a single payer system and such.

[ColesCountyDem]

90. As a family, we've never done the 'inherited wealth' thing.

My father was a small-town family practitioner, and my mother was a part-time licensed clinical social worker. While they weren't wealthy, by any means, they were comfortably upper-middle class. My parents, like their parents and grandparents before them, provided well for us from birth through 'career launch', and would also make a loan, if we needed it. The family has never willed their estates to their children, preferring to settle modest amounts on the grandchildren and great-grandchildren, and donating the rest to charity.

My late aunt said that the reason for this family tradition was that they always assumed that their children would have better lives than they themselves had, and it had been true, with the exception of the Great Depression. She was absolute certain that, had my parents been able to foresee the Great Recession, they would have chosen to break with tradition. In her words, "Your mom and dad loved you kids with every fiber of their being, and had they been able to know what the future held, they would have left every dime they had to you-- probably in trust, but still every dime".

ALL of us assumed that things would be better for my generation than it had been for theirs, and it was, until Vandals assaulted the economy, with the prior, active assistance of our Congress.

[neffernin]

92. Best of luck in your recovery

Hopefully one day you'll have that choice to give to charity or to the younger generation.

[ColesCountyDem]

94. Thank you! I plan to continue the family tradition, God willing.

[lululu]

107. prior, active assistance of our Congress

don't forget Bill Clinton and NAFTA.

[Liberal_in_LA]

73. i am so sorry about your situation. i hope things improve for you - someway, somehow

[Puglover]

96. Amazing and chilling story.

I am so sorry that all of this happened to you.

The fact that you were able to tell it so graciously makes me think you will land on your feet.

Best regards and thoughts your way.

Puglover

[ColesCountyDem]

97. Thank you, and I think I will land on my feet, too!

[myrna minx]

98. I'm so gad you're receiving the healthcare you need.

My brightest healing vibes are coming your way. I'm so sorry you've had to suffer for so long.

[ColesCountyDem]

99. Thank you!

While I occasionally part ways with the President on some issues, I will ALWAYS praise him, Gov. Quinn and our State Legislature for the ACA and the legislation enabling Illinois to expand Medicaid.

[myrna minx]

100. While the ACA isn't perfect, I'll always be grateful for the life saving care it allows to those

who would have been forced to languish.

May things grow brighter for you this year.
I'll leave you with the Irish blessing:
May the road rise up to meet you and the wind be at your back.

[ColesCountyDem]

101. It's not perfect, but it's there, thank God.

Let me offer you a Polish proverb, in return:

"Ladnemu we wszystkim ladnie." (A pretty person looks pretty in every clothing.).