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LuckyTheDog

(6,837 posts)
Sat Apr 26, 2014, 09:58 PM Apr 2014

German study: Wind and solar can generate electricity for half the cost of nuclear

New-build wind and solar energy systems can generate electricity for up to 50 per cent cheaper than new nuclear power plants, a German study has found.

The research, commissioned by German think tank Agora Energiewende, compares feed-in tariffs for new nuclear in the UK with FiTs for renewables in Germany, and finds that nuclear and carbon capture and storage (CSS) – a technology not yet available in Europe – are both more expensive than wind and solar as energy strategies for preventing climate change.

Released this week, the study also investigates the costs of “complete power systems” using natural gas power as flexible peak load back-up – something nuclear power plants need to achieve a generation capacity that makes them economically viable, and solar and wind farms need to make up for weather-affected intermittency.

The study concludes that, “even today and under conservative assumptions,” a reliable power system based on solar PV, onshore wind and gas would be around 20 per cent cheaper than a system based on nuclear power and gas – a cost gap that was likely to widen as renewables became even more competitive.


MORE HERE: http://wonkynewsnerd.com/wind-solar-can-generate-electricity-half-cost-nuclear/

21 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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German study: Wind and solar can generate electricity for half the cost of nuclear (Original Post) LuckyTheDog Apr 2014 OP
We don't need nuclear for any of our energy needs madokie Apr 2014 #1
Nuclear energy is the cleanest and safest form of energy production besides renewables. Gravitycollapse Apr 2014 #2
Fukushima, chernobyl, three mile Island madokie Apr 2014 #3
Those are extremely isolated incidents. Statistically speaking, far more people die... Gravitycollapse Apr 2014 #5
80 percent or so of our energy comes from fossil fuels madokie Apr 2014 #6
I live in Arizona. I'm very fully aware of the consequences of uranium mining. Gravitycollapse Apr 2014 #7
There's an increased amount of leukemia and other cancers within the vicinity of all nuclear plants. diane in sf Apr 2014 #9
There is no evidence that living near a nuclear power station... Gravitycollapse Apr 2014 #15
So you admit that nuclear energy is dirty and dangerous compared to renewables? Scuba Apr 2014 #11
I just said that we should transition to renewables... Gravitycollapse Apr 2014 #14
Think of all the jobs such a program would create. Octafish Apr 2014 #4
Only when the sun is shining and the wind is blowing. hunter Apr 2014 #8
Solar energy can be stored and wind is pretty constant across a large enough grid. diane in sf Apr 2014 #10
Storage is very expensive at this point... hunter Apr 2014 #12
Battery storage. mmonk Apr 2014 #13
If you've ever worked with lead acid batteries you know they are evil. hunter Apr 2014 #19
Without a lot of noise and propaganda the Germans are slowly replacing their energy needs malaise Apr 2014 #16
How odd... FBaggins Apr 2014 #17
Wow, angry much? LuckyTheDog Apr 2014 #18
He's right, sadly. Germany quit nuclear to burn fossil fuels. hunter Apr 2014 #20
Can't tell the difference between laughter and anger? FBaggins Apr 2014 #21

madokie

(51,076 posts)
1. We don't need nuclear for any of our energy needs
Sat Apr 26, 2014, 10:14 PM
Apr 2014

Way too many un-answered questions concerning safety and the waste.
Mining and processing the ore is co2 intensive to boot so its no where near as clean as they would like us to believe

Down with nuclear and up with renewables would be the best approach to our energy needs

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
2. Nuclear energy is the cleanest and safest form of energy production besides renewables.
Sat Apr 26, 2014, 10:22 PM
Apr 2014

Now that renewable sources are finally viable, we need to transition. But it would be wrong to try and portray nuclear energy as unclean or unsafe because it is neither. It is a vast improvement over fossil fuel powered plants.

madokie

(51,076 posts)
3. Fukushima, chernobyl, three mile Island
Sat Apr 26, 2014, 10:34 PM
Apr 2014

and an almost at Davis-Besse. Just because the nuclear power industry doesn't admit that exposure to radiation causes health problems does not the truth make.

I don't buy the bullshit that nuclear is safe nor clean, let alone a sane way to boil water to make steam

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
5. Those are extremely isolated incidents. Statistically speaking, far more people die...
Sat Apr 26, 2014, 10:40 PM
Apr 2014

or are made ill from fossil fuel based energy production than from nuclear energy production.

madokie

(51,076 posts)
6. 80 percent or so of our energy comes from fossil fuels
Sat Apr 26, 2014, 11:03 PM
Apr 2014

I'm not so sure that those are isolated incidents either

At any rate you believe what you want. I'll not buy into your argument though

A large percent of the people who die from air pollution is not from fossil fueled power plants rather from piss poor designed indoor heating and cooking apparatuses in third world countries. People who don't use proper breathing filters in their jobs, such as farmers for one and industrial workers for another not to mention the miners of all our minerals and ores whether they be coal or uranium. Mining uranium ores are just as bad as mining anything else. Have you ever read how much overburden as a whole must be removed to get at most of all these items and how many miles of tunnels are involved?

Yes air pollution kills a lot of people but it isn't all coming from the exhaust of fossil fueled power plants and you're being very disingenuous if you think or believe it does

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
7. I live in Arizona. I'm very fully aware of the consequences of uranium mining.
Sat Apr 26, 2014, 11:21 PM
Apr 2014

In all likelihood, I'm more aware of them than you. But that's beside the point.

Of the anthropogenic sources for particulate pollution, energy production is ranked third behind residential and on-road vehicular sources.

http://www.epa.gov/cgi-bin/broker?_service=data&_debug=0&_program=dataprog.national_1.sas&polchoice=PM

Of the anthropogenic sources for greenhouse gas emissions, energy production is ranked first.

http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemissions/usinventoryreport.html



By the way, only a fool would argue that all pollution is sourced from energy production. And I am not a fool. But to ignore the actual quantified records of safety and cleanliness for different types of energy production because it doesn't jive with your preconceived narrative is totally unethical.


diane in sf

(3,913 posts)
9. There's an increased amount of leukemia and other cancers within the vicinity of all nuclear plants.
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 03:56 AM
Apr 2014

The mining of radioactive ores is also dirty and the problem of storage of nuclear leftovers has not been solved.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
15. There is no evidence that living near a nuclear power station...
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 01:08 PM
Apr 2014

Increases your risk for leukemia. Unless you specifically have a peer reviewed study demonstrating otherwise.

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
11. So you admit that nuclear energy is dirty and dangerous compared to renewables?
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 07:45 AM
Apr 2014

Yet you still advocate for it. Weird.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
14. I just said that we should transition to renewables...
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 01:06 PM
Apr 2014

Nuclear is more dirty and less safe than renewables. But it is also much safer and cleaner than fossil fuel plants.

These things exist along a continuum. Nuclear isn't all of a sudden unclean and unsafe because renewables are cleaner and safer. It means it falls further behind on the continuum just as fossil fuel plants fall further behind nuclear.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
4. Think of all the jobs such a program would create.
Sat Apr 26, 2014, 10:34 PM
Apr 2014

Unfortunately for the People, those who'd lose theirs in the switchover control Capitalism's Invisible Army. It is doable, however. A clean, safe, renewable energy grid would cost less than the financial price of the Second Iraq War.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/for-the-price-of-the-iraq-war-the-u-s-could-have-a-100-renewable-power-system/5330881

Perhaps this Energy for the 21st century program could accompany the investigation, indictment and prosecution of those who have profited from wars for oil and the manufacture and control of nuclear weapons.


hunter

(38,310 posts)
8. Only when the sun is shining and the wind is blowing.
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 12:24 AM
Apr 2014

But thank goodness we have fracking gas, and dirty coal to pick up the slack!



The only thing that matters is we quit fossil fuels, and the only way to quit fossil fuels is to quit fossil fuels.

Human use of fossil fuels is still rising. Wind and sun power are not going to magically displace fossil fuels. Fossil fuels are cheap in the short term, but climate changes will destroy this world economy in the longer term.

Living without fossil fuels will require significant changes in the way we live, changes that nobody, myself included, seems able to accomplish.




hunter

(38,310 posts)
12. Storage is very expensive at this point...
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 11:08 AM
Apr 2014

... and statistically very large areas can have little or no wind.

In the past I saw very large scale HVDC electric grids as a solution to these problems, something like Buckminster Fuller's global electric grid but I abandoned that vision a long time ago as it simply trades fossil-fueled corporate and government corruption and inhumanity for electrically-powered government corruption and inhumanity.



A highly industrialized wind and solar powered world is also a world of humongous environmentally destructive hydroelectric projects and police states protecting energy supplies; the same as nuclear, the same as fossil fuels.

Even a perfectly "clean" fusion powered world is simply not attractive to me. At this point in our cultural evolution humans can fuck up the planet with any energy source we might imagine, "clean" or not.

The only real solution is to teach our children to respect themselves, to respect others, and to respect what is left of the natural environment. Next we must practice birth control to such an extent that the human population is declining.

I suspect my utopia is a live-and-let-live matriarchy of highly educated women and very low child mortality rates.

Educating and empowering women, making every sort of birth control easily available everywhere, and doing everything we can to make sure every child is loved and provided for, these efforts will go a lot further in making this world a better place than any "alternative energy" scheme or improved industrial efficiencies.

Humanity as it currently exists is fully capable of destroying the natural environment we all depend on. As things are proceeding now we will destabilize the environment to such an extent this world civilization collapses. "Alternative energy" schemes like wind and solar are not going to change that.

hunter

(38,310 posts)
19. If you've ever worked with lead acid batteries you know they are evil.
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 04:43 PM
Apr 2014

The problem is especially acute in "developing" nations where recycling methods are primitive.

Lead damages young minds and it has a "half life" of forever. Would you allow your sons or daughters to hack apart dead lead acid cells and dump the lead plates into an open furnace? I wouldn't. Nor would I want to live in a neighborhood where this was being done.

I don't have much experience with other sorts of batteries because they are expensive, or involve even worse toxins.

Nickel-Cadmium... it's come back from China and been sold at Wal-Mart as kids jewelery.

Iron-Nickel batteries are very solar friendly, long lasting, and hard to kill, but Chinese Nickel refineries are as bad as North American refineries used to be. Same problem with Nickel Metal Hydride cells.

My next experiment will be with Lithium Iron Phosphate cells, just as soon as I acquire some from the waste stream.

Still, off-channel hydroelectric is probably the best way to store solar and wind energy. I like schemes where wastewater is recycled back into fresh water and pumped back uphill into reservoirs whenever the sun is shining or the wind is blowing.

I also think we ought to be experimenting with residential housing that requires very little energy. Cooking would be accomplished by fully renewable fuels (perhaps DME made from ag waste and sewage), homes would be heated and cooled by local means (simple human body heat, geothermal heat, solar), and electricity would be used only for nighttime reading and writing and charging various personal electronics.

Privately owned automobiles would be rare; let's abandon those energy hogs for attractive walkable communities where people would rather stay in the neighborhood than drive to to work, shop in some big box store, or eat in a soulless chain restaurant.

We do have plenty of options but we have to abandon our current automobile culture and consumer society to get there.

malaise

(268,921 posts)
16. Without a lot of noise and propaganda the Germans are slowly replacing their energy needs
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 01:38 PM
Apr 2014

I have loads of respect for them - they actually promote science and rational thinking.

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
17. How odd...
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 02:04 PM
Apr 2014

... one has to wonder why they compared apples to oranges like that (Germany's notion of a FIT for renewables compared to the UK's CFD pricing for nuclear) when the plans are so different (and cover different parts of the total price of delivering electricity). Most importantly... when the apples/apples comparison (UK CFD price for nuclear compared to UK CFD price for various renewables) is readily available.

Silly me... I guess we don't really have to wonder. It's because the relevant comparison doesn't provide the answer they want - and the organization "study"ing (sic) the question exists to pump the German Energiewende.

hunter

(38,310 posts)
20. He's right, sadly. Germany quit nuclear to burn fossil fuels.
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 04:49 PM
Apr 2014

The solar and wind energy projects are window dressing to attract "green" political voting.

That's not any kind of improvement.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garzweiler_surface_mine

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