46yr old man raped and murdered an 11month old baby..

[HipChick]

and I'm supposed to have empathy care about how he dies?

Warner, 46, was found guilty of raping and killing 11-month-old Adrianna Waller in 1997. He lived with the child's mother.

[Capt. Obvious]

1. Shouldn't this be posted in Blood Lust group?

[Brickbat]

2. I dunno, should you?

[onehandle]

3. Life in prison is more of a prison than death.

Small grey box, cold, hot, pain, insanity, rape?

I'll take death, please.

[oneofthe99]

5. Most people think that until the morning of your own execution

[onehandle]

8. Then a few hours later you have no worries at all.

Studying for the test is worse than the test itself.

[oneofthe99]

10. You might be surprised how some people adopt to life in prison

even if they have to spend their lives in protective custody

[onehandle]

12. Death is freedom.

Adapting is prison.

[oneofthe99]

13. Like I said until it's your turn to be strapped down on a gurney

[exboyfil]

29. I recently did some internet research

on the 3 brothers who killed four teens and raped another in the 1970s in a state park in Iowa.

What I found was a little odd. Two of the brothers were receiving service awards from the state prison system. The newsletter in which they appeared in looked like one my company would put out. The picture looked just like our service awards in my company.

It appears these brothers adapted pretty well to prison. They will never get out except possibly for a medical discharge. I am of two minds regarding prison industry. I think it is useful to have meaningful work and be compensated for it, but I don't like how these products compete with products produced in private industry. Also prison should not be too comfortable. You should be secure in your person in prison, but you should not view it as an extended health club vacation (watching tv, playing basketball, and lifting weights all day). Finally it is obvious that prisoner's labor is exploited in many cases (pay should be set at a higher value with a portion of the money going into a victim's fund).




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Gitchie_Manitou_Murders

[Jgarrick]

33. And yet death row inmate after inmate fight to live in such an environment rather than die.

Why do you suppose that is, if life in prison is worse than death?

[onehandle]

69. It's a mental diversion from prison.

And duh, living creatures naturally don't want to die.

Next!

[madokie]

68. Death is too easy for people like him

I'd much rather see him rot in a cell somewhere. And while we're at it keep him alive as long as humanly possible. Thats punishment

[TreasonousBastard]

4. The point is that if we want to...

think we are better than him, we should be better than him.

[IdaBriggs]

14. Because really, it is all about *US* being better than *HIM*, right?

Personally, I reject that argument. I would like to think I would never commit a heinous crime (especially one such as THAT), but the truth is, if my brain chemistry were altered sufficiently, or I was told it was "okay" to kill people due to my role in society (armed services, for example), or I was being tortured past the point of human endurance, I have no idea what I might do or the words that might come out of my mouth. My ability to cope with those actions (comforted by my role as a protector of others, horrified because of addiction, amused due to being a psychopath - whatever!) is a different matter.

I am "not better" than this person; I am lucky. I pray I stay lucky. And I am no better or worse than the next human being.

With that being said, I support the death penalty in cases of terrible crimes such as the one mentioned. I am not interested in his penance or redemption; there are points where, once a person goes beyond them (even through no fault of their own in the case of those with altered brain chemistry not by choice), if you put your baby in the microwave due to post partem depression (for example), the planet is better off without you on it.

Same goes for the guy mentioned in the original post; may God have mercy on his soul, because it isn't my place to grant it. If the mother of his victim wants him dead, put him down. If her peace requires him to live in a box, so be it.

My thoughts; your mileage may vary.

Sigh.

[uponit7771]

36. +1, yes it is...

[Spider Jerusalem]

56. What the mother of the victim wants doesn't matter.

Justice isn't about vengeance. If you think that's a good way to decide the death penalty you should probably move to Iran.

[muriel_volestrangler]

65. You'd kill someone who killed because of a recognised mental illness?

You could prevent them from doing that again by removing any further children from them at birth.

[NuclearDem]

6. One act of barbarism doesn't justify another.

[oneofthe99]

7. True but I wouldn't be able to live right until I saw dead him if it was my child he did it to

[atreides1]

26. I agree with you

But then I would do it myself...I would end his miserable life with my own hands and in my own way!

[avebury]

67. +1,000! K&R nt

[Douglas Carpenter]

9. I find it implausible to believe that anyone chooses to have such compulsions

I will never rape and murder an 11-month old infant - for among other reasons - it is beyond my conceptions that anyone would want to. I wonder what it is that makes some people want to do such things. I wonder what it would be like to have to fight off such temptations as that.

[951-Riverside]

11. No, rehabilitate him with kind words and hugs. Prison is tourture. All men should be free

Overcome evil with kindness. FREE THIS MAN RIGHT NOW!

[NuclearDem]

15. Ridiculous strawman is ridiculous.

[951-Riverside]

19. It's not a straw man at all. Surely you agree that taking away a person's freedom is inhumane

How does it help anyone to lock this man away?

In the end it costs tax payers millions to house these guys. I think we'd be better off giving the guy a hug, have him attend several group therapy sessions with the mother then give him a job so he can pay the mother restitution.

FREE THIS MAN RIGHT NOW!

[Vashta Nerada]

20. Good gods, I really hope you're kidding.

[NuclearDem]

22. Absolutely no one is saying that.

You're just implying that opponents of the DP coddle baby killers.

Never a more textbook example of a strawman.

[neverforget]

25. well it is the conservative argument that

Liberals are weak on crime, yadda yadda yadda.

[951-Riverside]

34. Depriving him of his freedom isnt going to bring the baby back. End this barbaric practice.

He's not going to be a productive member of society rotting behind bars, its just a barbaric practice that costs tax payers like you and I millions of dollars. We need jobs not jails.

This man would be better off having a job and paying the mother restitution than in prison.

FREE THIS MAN RIGHT NOW!

[NuclearDem]

35. Right, it's either torture someone to death or let them go.

Absolutely no middle ground whatsoever.

[951-Riverside]

41. Prison is torture. Kind words, hugs, therapy and a job is much more effective for this man.

End this barbaric inhuman practice! FREE THIS MAN RIGHT NOW!

[NuclearDem]

43. You really haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about do you?

Oh well, trolls gonna troll.

[LanternWaste]

57. On what objective, peer-reviewed analysis is the allegation based on?

"Prison is torture..."

On what objective, peer-reviewed analysis is the allegation that any and all prison is inhumane based on?

[rrneck]

39. You're funny.

1% of the population are psychopaths. That's about three million people.

[Atman]

77. It actually costs MORE to execute a person

I won't even bother with your links. Generally, when twelve people get together and plot to kill someone it's "conspiracy to commit murder." But I guess as long as there is a guy in black robe sitting behind a big oak desk, then murdering people is okay.

[get the red out]

37. +1

Love it!

[surrealAmerican]

16. It's not about the criminal; it's about the people who make and enforce the laws.

Some criminals will commit heinous acts.
Do we need to pay non-criminals to kill on our behalf?
What does that make them?
What does that make us?

[PeaceNikki]

17. No, you should care about the law of the land, though.

[B2G]

24. The death penalty IS the law of the land in OK. nt

[Scootaloo]

18. So you're fine with torturing someone to death. Gotcha

I wonder if you think it will make the child live again. or if the screaming death of this man will cure the grief and emotional wounds of the other people in this case. Is it some mystic belief, that only equal or worse suffering can clear a soul of a crime or something? Do you feel he should be raped while behind bars as well? Maybe we could make that part of the punishment, like they did in Iraq.

What this guy did is horrible beyond words. This does not make killing him - much less torturing him - the proper response.

[magical thyme]

72. the man was not screaming and convulsions are not torture.

He made 3 noises, the last one of which sounded like the word, "man." He convulsed.

People convulse from various medical conditions. I've convulsed from an accident. I've witnessed a friend have convulsions from an epileptic seizure. There are far, far worse things in life and death.

Personally, I'd rather have 15 minutes of convulsions than, say, burn alive. Now that would be torture.

[RebelOne]

21. This man should have a slow and agonizing death

just as that poor baby had by his hands.

[Estrella Fugaz]

75. You should start a movement calling for an amendment to the Constitution

Which would delete the part about unusual and cruel punishment.

[B2G]

23. This poor baby had

2 depressive skull fractures, 3 broken ribs, 2 jaw fractures, a lacerated liver, a bruised spleen and lungs, 6 tears in her rectum and multiple bruises the shape of adult fingerprints.

She was found dead in his bedroom with a pornographic tape in the VCR player and a jar of vaseline on the bedside table.

I hope he suffers tremendously when he's put to death.

[Capt. Obvious]

27. The White House cares

White House: Botched Execution Did Not Meet Humane Standards

WASHINGTON (AP) — White House says botched execution in Oklahoma fell short of humane standards.

TPM

[Dr. Strange]

50. Interesting.

I didn't know the White House believed in a humane standard for execution.

I bet that standard involves drones.

[Capt. Obvious]

54. Seems legit

?1349092677

[Spider Jerusalem]

28. The issue with capital punishment isn't people like Warner.

It's with people like Cameron Willingham and Johnny Garrett and Jesse Tafero and dozens or hundreds of others like them who were executed for crimes they didn't commit.

How many innocent people executed do you think is an acceptable margin of error? Five percent of those convicted of capital crimes? Ten percent? Zero? (I say zero, personally.)

[closeupready]

30. This has NOTHING to do with being opposed to capital punishment.

And shame on you for attempting to imply that capital punishment's opponents are babykillers/pedophiles/sympathizers whatever.

[RedCappedBandit]

31. Should an individual's personal feelings have anything to do with legislation?

[Hippo_Tron]

32. If you can't muster any empathy for this guy, try to muster some for an innocent person...

Who may be wrongfully tortured as well as wrongfully executed.

[BuddhaGirl]

61. +1

n/t

[PeteSelman]

38. I doubt they could do anything to that guy to make me feel bad for him.

Maybe forcing him to listen to Creed.

Other than that, go full Inquisition on him for all I care.

[liberalhistorian]

40. Being against the death penalty is not about

having empathy/sympathy for the condemned and is certainly not about minimizing his or her crimes or not having any concern or sympathy for the victim and his or her family. It is about wanting a civilized society that does not exact barbarian-style revenge, and that does not engage in such blood just revenge that ultimately does no good and certainly does not bring back the victim. It only causes the same pain to other families, who had nothing to do with it.

And yes, I've signed a "do not murder my murderer" document that my state's anti-death-penalty group has developed in conjunction with other states and if anyone else has a problem with that, as some people have, too damned bad. The death penalty is barbaric and wrong and we are one of the very few developed nations that actually still use it. Does it make you proud that we are on a par with North Korea and Iraq as far as the numbers of those we execute? Does it make you proud that minorities who are accused of crimes against whites receive the DP disproportionately, far more than the other way around and certainly far more than wealthy whites, in this country?

"Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?"

[blueamy66]

44. We don't "kill people to show that killing people is wrong".

We put murderers to death to get them off of Earth so that they can never kill again.

[liberalhistorian]

49. They can never kill again once

they're locked up for life. Blood lust revenge and "tit for tat" killing is not worthy of a democratic, civilized society.

[arely staircase]

53. yeah, murders are never committed in prison. nt

[morningfog]

74. Do you have stats on how many murders have been committed by death rom inmates?

Thanks in advance.

Stats on the number of murders by convicted killers in prison would be helpful too.

[arely staircase]

76. no because it doesn't hapoen

Once someine is in prison they can no longer hurt or kill others.

[morningfog]

78. I know you are being flippant, I am challenging you

to support your apparent position that we as a society are justified on killing prisoners to prevent them from killing in prison. Because I think that is an incredibly weak and unsupported argument.

[arely staircase]

82. no you are right

People in prison are no danger to themselves or others. You win.

[morningfog]

83. You got nothing. Lol. The studies would surprise you.

[morningfog]

84. Death Penalty Not Needed to Prevent Prison Murder

•Between 2001 and 2007, states with the death penalty had considerably higher prison murder rates on average (4.25/100,000, with four of 38 states reporting no prison homicides in that time period) than those states without the death penalty (.92/100,000, with 7 of 12 states reporting no prison homicides).

• Both populations had lower murder rates on average than the country as a whole, which averaged about 5.6/100,000 during the same period.

https://death.rdsecure.org/article.php?id=555

[arely staircase]

86. well I guess that explains why they feel they need the DP

All those murders.

[blueamy66]

58. Oh yes they can. They can kill in prison.

I don't care if it's "worthy". What the hell else goes on in this "democratic, civilized society" that just isn't worthy? A crapload of stuff.

If someone killed my family member or loved one, especially the way this waste of human breath did, you bet your ass that I'd want them put to death.

[WinkyDink]

85. I don't hold Homo sapiens sapiens in such elevated regard.

[arely staircase]

52. why do we lock up people who lock up people to show that locking

people up is wrong?

[Paladin]

42. I'd settle for your respecting the 8th Amendment.

The Bill of Rights is still in effect, despite the efforts of Dick Cheney and Antonin Scalia to use it like toilet paper. That includes a prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment by the government.

[Upton]

45. No empathy here..

he needs to be put down. Preferably by the same method he murdered the child..

[AverageJoe90]

46. I have absolutely no sympathy for this POS Warner. nt

[Nye Bevan]

47. I have no empathy for him, but I still oppose the death penalty 100%.

I see no inconsistency there.

[NCTraveler]

48. I am not asking for you to have empathy in any way.

I am asking that you oppose state sanctioned murder.

[stevenleser]

51. I would understand (but still disagree with) your argument if we were 100% certain he was guilty

There are so many innocent people in prison, particularly people of color.

I literally lie awake at night sometimes wondering if the final act of injustice against a black man or black woman wrongfully accused and convicted of a heinous crime is their barbaric execution at the hands of the state. What would the last few years of their existence be like starting with their initial arrest?

All it takes is thinking those brief thoughts to re-steel my resolve against the death penalty.

Just remember Jonathan Fleming who was finally released after over 20 years and he had proof all along that he was on vacation 1000 miles away from the murder at the time it happened. What do people do who are wrongly convicted whose proof of innocence isn't so definitive and demonstrative?. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/09/nyregion/brooklyn-district-attorney-overturns-conviction-in-1989-murder.html?_r=0

[Jackpine Radical]

55. My opposition to the death penalty has just about nothing to do with compassion

for the executee.

Here's an op-ed I published a few years ago on the topic when Wisconsin was contemplating an "advisory referendum" on the issue:

As an ex-field psychologist for the state Department of Corrections, I imagine I have met more murderers than the average citizen, and I have very little sympathy for them as a class of people. Why, then do I oppose the death penalty in Wisconsin? I assure you that my opposition to the death penalty has absolutely nothing to do with tender feelings for anyone who would deliberately kill others. Rather, I am very worried about the consequences of passing a death penalty on the state as a whole.

Four arguments are commonly made in opposition to the death penalty. Let me review them before moving on to the particular concerns I want to discuss. Here, then, are the traditional arguments:

First, we have no need for a death penalty to protect ourselves from murderers because Wisconsin law permits us to put them in prison for life without hope of ever being released.

Second, it is expensive to seek the death penalty. Studies in other states have shown that it costs more to sentence a murderer to death and then wade through the appeals process than it would have to simply imprison the criminal for life.

Third, there is always the possibility of executing an innocent person. Some people seem to think that the use of DNA evidence is an absolutely certain means of avoiding such errors, but that is simply not so. Any number of events, ranging from misbehavior on the part of police officers to errors at the crime lab, could bring about terrible miscarriages of justice.

And fourth, there is no evidence that the death penalty deters crime. Just consider for a moment—can you imagine criminals thinking to themselves, “I want to go on a killing spree, but they will put me to death if they catch me, so I won’t do it. However, I would go out and murder a bunch of people if all I had to face was life without parole.”

If you think the death penalty is somehow going to make you safer, how do you explain this?—Murder rates per 100,000 population range from a low of 1.2 in Maine to a high of 13.0 in Louisiana. Twelve states, including Wisconsin, have no death penalty. The average murder rate for these states is 2.90. The remaining 38 states have the death penalty. Their murder rate per hundred thousand residents is 5.3. The probability of this being a chance result is less than one in a hundred.

At 3.3 murders per 100,000, Wisconsin has a slightly higher murder rate than the average for states without the death penalty, but considerably lower than the average for states with the death penalty. Why, then, should we be in any hurry to legalize the death penalty and thereby join the group of states with the higher murder rates?

Another question—Might there be something about having a death penalty that causes states to have a higher murder rate? As a psychologist, I think there may be a connection. Let us make no bones about it. To approve the death penalty is to assert that it is permissible for a large number of people—the state—to gang up and put one of its members to death. When a state authorizes executions, it is in effect saying that killing is not only permissible, but is in fact desirable, in some circumstances, including circumstances that do not involve immediate self-defense. Children learn both behaviors and attitudes by the example of their elders. From what we know of child development, there is every reason to imagine that children who grow up in a society that approves the killing of human beings will have lower inhibitions against killing than do children whose society teaches an absolute intolerance of killing.

Wisconsin has never executed a criminal since attaining statehood in 1848, and explicitly forbade the practice in 1853. This is a proud tradition that I believe to be worth keeping.

[blueamy66]

59. I don't agree.

#1. Can you protect the other prisoners from this murderer? Yes, they can murder again.
#2. All appeals cost $, whether it be for a 2 year sentence or a death penalty sentence.
#3. I've got nothing for this one. Mistakes are inevitable. The human condition and fallibility....
#4. Don't care if it deters crime. It deters this one murderer from ever committing another crime.

"To approve the death penalty is to assert that it is permissible for a large number of people—the state—to gang up and put one of its members to death. When a state authorizes executions, it is in effect saying that killing is not only permissible, but is in fact desirable, in some circumstances, including circumstances that do not involve immediate self-defense".

I call BS. This is such a silly argument. What the state is really saying is that if you kill a human being you stand the chance of losing your life as well. Yeah, Joe Blow is really thinking that if he robs a couple, rapes the woman and then kills the man, that the state thinks it's okay, because they sanction the death penalty.

[magical thyme]

62. correlation does not equal causation.

I can think of a number of possible reasons why Maine has a much lower murder rate than Louisiana. None of them have to do with death penalty, or lack thereof.

1. temperature. it wasn't long ago that I read hear on DU that studies show that anger or anger-crimes are much higher on average in hotter areas than cooler.

2. space. Maine is a lot less crowded than mid-Atlantic and many southern states. Our "big" cities are a joke.

3. environment. People here are too busy surviving to have time to murder.

4. police. our police are pretty decent compared to down south. you won't read about violent police up here.

5. culture. the culture up here is simply very, very different than in the south.

6. back to temperature. winters are long and tough. the joke is you don't live in Maine, you survive it. there simply isn't time in the summer to get into trouble. If you're not a tourist, you're too busy trying to get ready for winter. Then it's too cold to set foot outside.

[Jackpine Radical]

64. I really don't need to be lectured on causation versus correlation.

[Sienna86]

60. We are not them.

My opinion is that we do not have to fall to their level.

[spanone]

63. unrec

[avebury]

66. So you prefer to stoop to the same level as the defendent?

We need to look at the entire criminal justice system which is currently operating under the guise of seeing how many people we can lock up over and over because private prison corporations are a growth industry in the US. There are a lot of countries who take a different approach to criminal justice and don't have anywhere near the problems that we have. A great example is Norway which doesn't even hand out life sentences. There are a lot of countries who don't use the death penalty, have a more progressive attitude in dealing with criminal justice, and (let's be honest) don't have obsessive gun cultures that don't have anywhere near the volume of criminal activity that we experience here. We have become our own worst enemy in the perpetuation of a rising prison population. Allowing people to earn a living wage and helping them to be lifted out of poverty might go a long way in reducing crime. Passing laws that state with gun ownership comes responsibility and consequences and if your are irresponsible you might face criminal charges.

[delta17]

70. I agree.

If you live a violent, brutal life, you will probably meet a violent end. Is it morally right for the state to kill people? Maybe not. Do I really care? Not much.

[99Forever]

71. There are some very disturbing people on this thread.

Their bloodlust defines them.

Sad.

Very fucking sad.

[GeorgeGist]

73. Reagan democrats.

[Evergreen Emerald]

79. My view is radical.

I support the death penalty--in theory. Not everyone deserves to live. There are people on this planet so heinous that they should simply be put down, like we do rabid dogs.

The problem is in the administration of the death penalty. I don't trust anyone to make those decisions. I think of the state with the most executions: Texas. I did not trust George Bush to do anything right--I could never trust him to decide who lives or dies. Sarah Palin was Governor. I would not trust her to wash the windows, let alone make life and death decisions. So, unless I become Queen of the World, I cannot support the death penalty.

Side note: your arguments that those who disagree with you are "bloodlust," are not accurate or appropriate. No matter how hard I try, I cannot garner even the slightest bit of sympathy for the guy. I think of the victims' last moments. How scared were they? Did they cry for their moms? Were they in pain? How much did they suffer? And I think of my friend whose brother died at the hands of a murdering robber. And watch what the family went through when, during the trial, the murder arrogantly smiled at them as they cried in the courtroom. No matter how much you attack me and label me as bad as a murder, I cannot garner sympathy for him.

[Sheepshank]

81. I kinda think like this too

I do think some people don't deserve to live amongst us. But until the process of finding guilt is infallible and until the process is infallible, I don't see how I can support it.

I hear beheading is quick and painless....but until everyone who is required to place their neck on the chopping block can be proven to be 100% guilty, no one should be approaching the chopping block.

I have heard of the rare case when a criminal does NOT want to appeal, they feel enough guilt that they don't want to live, and this it is just punichment for what they have done....I wonder why we force them to go through years of appeals anyway?

[tularetom]

80. As long as we've been executing people in the US you'd think we could be better at it

We can't execute the right people and we can't even execute them successfully.

I'll bet they don't have any "botched executions" in Saudi Arabia.