You can totally oppose the death penalty while having zero empathy for murderers and rapists.

[Nye Bevan]

It's very disappointing to see people on a progressive website not grasping this. One day the US will join most of the rest of the civilized world in abolishing capital punishment, and history will not look kindly on events like yesterday's.

[Coventina]

1. Thank you. K & R

on edit: The death penalty is not about punishment. If it were, humanity would "learn" to stop committing capital crimes. How we treat the worst amongst us is the ultimate illustration of how we value human life. There are a host of other issues as well, but I'm heading off to work now.

Good luck with this thread, I have the feeling you might need it.

[NCTraveler]

2. The empathy op was clearly a failure and not based in reality.

I don't even get the manner in which empathy was connected to it. Seems like a rw argument that liberals just care too much and it's always about emotions. Pathetic.

[aikoaiko]

3. Sure, but its surprising how many do.

[cthulu2016]

4. I would not say zero empathy.

But rather the the baseline empathy one has for a human being, as an instance of a category.

I think sympathy might be a better term.

[unblock]

5. i agree sympathy might be a better term but with that change, zero is still a possible amount

because of the shift in subject.

pro-death penalty people always want to make it all about the felon, in no small part because the negative feelings about that person helps their case.

anti-death penalty people often try to focus on the *government* and what powers it should have. the felon is beside the point. whatever the felon "deserves", no government should have the right to impose death on its subjects.

with this perspective, it's quite possible to have zero sympathy, or in fact even zero empathy, for the felon, while still being completely anti-death penalty.

[petronius]

9. Well said; I agree... (nt)

[lbrtbell]

87. It's not about the felon, but the victim

What upsets me the most is how people always talk about the felon, but never about the victim.

The 19-year-old teenager who was murdered by this guy was shot twice and buried alive.

The reason the public mistakenly thinks that anti-death penalty people have more empathy for the criminal than the victim, is because nobody talks about the victim's horrific experience, or that of the grieving family.

We would have a far better discussion, if people were to talk about that, and then suggest that life in prison is a more appropriate punishment for what was done to the victim.

But as long as the victim is ignored, then the RW'ers will always have ammunition to say, "You care more about the murderer than the victim."

Expressing sympathy for the victim is the sure-fire way to take that argument away from them.

[Live and Learn]

106. What about the fact that many "felons"

were once victims themselves? And, many of those never even had their crimes reported much less prosecuted? Aren't we responsible for letting them down?

Violence begets violence, it has been proven over and over again. Other "felons" are victims of biologically caused or drug induced mental illness.

The solution would seem to be getting both the victims and perpetrators the help they need to stop the perpetuation of these crimes.

Personal responsibility is a tool to teach, not as the term is currently used by the right wingers, a tool to use as a reason to punish.

We may not yet have all the tools necessary to heal these people yet but it doesn't mean we should just give up on them. Obama's funding of brain research is a step in the right direction.

Expressing sympathy for victims or perpetrators (and both of their families) does not make one sympathetic to the crime. I have the utmost sympathy for everyone involved.

[davidpdx]

109. Part of my problem is rehabilitation isn't even being given a chance in most states now

In Oregon they cut the budget and have eliminated quite a bit of the programs that would help inmates when they are released. I'm a firm believer that some people can be rehabilitated (not all).

[LiberalLovinLug]

129. Very well put

[davidpdx]

110. I had an conversation with a Korean student at the university I teach at here

just south of Seoul that was disturbing. He says he believes people convicted of crimes should have body parts cut off. I'm going to avoid talking with him the rest of the term because his ideas really make my stomach churn.

[unblock]

113. i don't think the pro-death penalty people are forgetting the victim.

their outrage and horror at what happened to the victim is exactly what leads them to scream for someone's head, and leads to people pushing the truth and proper process aside to sake the peoples' "need" for revenge or their brand of "justice".

[LiberalLovinLug]

131. Its about all the victims, not just that one

I think it is quite a disingenuous argument to portray anti-capital punishment advocates as ignoring the victim and the crime. The horror of the crime, some more than others, is self evident. There is no reason to wallow in the gore and shock. The point is to look beyond that horror and find solutions. And the first solution is to stop the cycle of violence at the state level for starters. No need to for the citizens, through their politicians, to partake in revenge murder in a hollow attempt to feel better. As Live and Learn says, violence begets violence. A young child growing up in a society that sanctions state murder, is less likely to feel its wrong to willingly take a life.

I would turn around your argument and put it out that its the pro death penalty advocates that are short sighted and only wallow in the misery of the victim and their family. Especially right wing news. Its a way of using emotion to blot out all conversation and keeping the public "seeing red" only. And on it goes.

[Live and Learn]

146. +1000 nt

[dhill926]

6. This....

Thanks for the sanity.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

7. Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster.

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. Friedrich Nietzsche

[gollygee]

8. +1

[Nye Bevan]

11. +1 nt

[oldhippie]

68. Friedrich Nietzsche ....

... is a dead white guy. I don't care what he said.

[Eleanors38]

81. ...and probably fat, too. From South Germany, I bet.

[defacto7]

101. ad hom.

[Gravitycollapse]

88. Nietzsche was an asshole. But the validity of his statement holds regardless.

[defacto7]

102. Toucher!

You win the "I'm no fool" award! Earthy, but truer it could not be!

[defacto7]

100. ad hominem

[oldhippie]

115. How so?

[defacto7]

144. It was meant with tongue in cheek,

but I'll answer anyway...

If you don't care what all dead white guys have ever said, it's not ad hom. (it may be something else but...)

If you don't care for what Nietzsche said because he's dead and a white guy, then it is ad hominem.

Whenever an arguer doesn't defend his position with facts or reason and resorts to attacking an opponent through labeling, name calling, offensive remarks, anger, sometimes a straw man, then it's ad hom.

Again, I wasn't trying to be offensive, I was just playing with the term.

[oldhippie]

145. Ok, I get you ...

My dead white guy comment was kind of tongue in cheek also. But I see your point about the two cases. After thinking about it, I agree with you. I learned something. Thanks.

[myrna minx]

139. Thank you.

[knightmaar]

10. The Death Penalty was never about what the criminal deserves

... it's about what we, as a society, are willing to do.

When you kill someone, even someone who totally deserves it, it's going to change you.

If a person does it, it changes you as a person.
If a society does it, it changes the society.

[niyad]

80. "foolish notion" by holly near

Holly Near - Foolish Notion Lyrics

Why do we kill people who are killing people
To show that killing people is wrong
What a foolish notion
That war is called devotion
When the greatest warriors are the ones that stand for peace

War toys are growing stronger
The problems stay the same
The young ones join the army
While general what's-his-name
Is feeling full of pride
That the army will provide
But does he ask himself

Death row is growing longer
The problems stay the same
The poor ones get thrown in prison
While warden what's-his-name
Is feeling justified
But when will he be tried (when justice is denied)
For never asking why…

Children are so tender
They will cross the earth if they think they are saving a friend
They get drawn in by patriotic lies
Right before our eyes
They leave our home
And then they find out once they're all alone
They're asking the age old question
Why?

Read more at http://www.songlyrics.com/holly-near/foolish-notion-lyrics/#myFApm8aDzj5SSJF.99

[Cha]

107. +1

[uppityperson]

12. k&r

[leftynyc]

13. Absolutely

I would never claim there are some humans that don't deserve to die - I'll shed no tears for the guy that executed last night but I do not support the death penalty. Our justice system is far from blind and too many people have been released due to DNA or witnesses recanting or cops having lied - that's why I don't support it.

[MineralMan]

14. Yes. I have been unalterably opposed to the death penalty since

I was a teenager, back in the early 1960s. My opposition is based on the concept that the state should not be in a position to take a person's life on the basis of a jury decision. That a number of people on death row have been released due to invalid charges is all the evidence I need. Death is final and irreversible. Truth is not determinable infallibly by juries. Therefore, the death penalty should never be applied as the result of a trial.

[nomorenomore08]

17. +1

[mac56]

33. +1

[MH1]

71. Well said. nt.

[Rhythm]

94. If they're wrong -- and so many have been -- there is no 'taking it back'

How many have been released because, on further examination, the evidence didn't ring true (or science finally corroborated the innocence they'd proclaimed all along), or the legal counsel they got was ham-handed or worse?

How many died innocent of the crimes that put them on death row???
(i know of one in my ex-husband's family... i'm sure there are too many others)

Not one more... I'd rather pay extra taxes to keep criminals guilty of capital crimes in prison with no parole than to have the government engage in potentially murdering another innocent man.

[SheilaT]

15. I not only oppose the death penalty,

but I like to ask people how they suppose it is that almost every other first world country manages without it.

[Jackpine Radical]

16. I've been trying to make exactly this point.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024891216

[Nye Bevan]

19. Good post, thanks. I hadn't seen it (nt)

[PeaceNikki]

18. I don't agree with you very often. But on this, I do.

[elleng]

20. Thanks.

I've held my breath and mouth on this.

[Tribalceltic]

21. K&R

[Piasladic]

22. Agree wholeheartedly

I was literally sickened today when I heard what was done in my name.

No evil human deserves the pain that I helped pay for, (but I in the end did). The cocktail recipe was hidden from the public, and the pain and suffering that was caused... was completely, inhuman. I agree about the pain of the victim, but for a State that has been shown to get convictions wrong to have a secret mix of drugs that do not seem to work...to literally torture a person to death... VERY WRONG!

I grew up in the south, Florida. People were regularly tortured before execution. We called the electric chair "Old Smokey" because of how the prisoners used to smoke from their heads when they were killed.

I only hope people understand that you cannot help the dead by torturing the living.

[Lizzie Poppet]

23. That's my take, actually.

I have zero empathy for people like that, and I don't actually object to executing the worst of them (not something most opponents of capital punishment think, I suspect). But unless the justice system can achieve 100% accuracy, I can never support capital punishment. There's no "reset button" on an execution.

[loyalsister]

41. My feelings too

Even if found guilty, there is no chance that a person who can afford a stellar defense will be executed, even in TX or MO.

[hlthe2b]

24. Indeed... +1

[passiveporcupine]

25. I wonder, how many people who support the death penalty

would be willing to pull the switch?

I know I never could. And if I can't do that to another person, no matter what s/he has done, I don't want my country to do it for me.

I was sickened by this case...I hope it resonates in this country's conscience for a long long time.

[OwnedByCats]

147. That is how I usually put it to someone who is

pro death penalty - could you flip the switch, or deliver the lethal injection? Just you alone? It's one thing to think it's ok when somebody else has to actually make that decision or carry it through, quite another if it falls squarely on your shoulders. Most especially if it's someone who swears they are innocent. Some of the worst will actually admit they have murdered (look up Carl Panzram - he freely admitted all of his crimes, which were vast and disturbing), but others maintain innocence. There might be a boat load of circumstantial evidence, but you still weren't there to see it.

If a person says "yes" they could .... I kind of don't know what to say. Most people say no or it would depend on what the person did.

[msanthrope]

26. Agreed, on all points. nt

[Obnoxious_One]

27. on an unrelated matter..

How do you feel about drone strikes on American citizens without due process.

[oldhippie]

69. That's different ...

The President orders it. That's the due process.

[ZombieHorde]

126. I don't like it.

I think "we" kill far too many people.

[Swede Atlanta]

28. Completely agree.....

1. First of all as a Christian I am taught to love my neighbor as myself and to turn the other cheek. This is certainly also the message of Gandhi. People do bad things for all kinds of reasons. If I am to be true to my Christian faith then I leave it to God to judge and punish. As a member of a society that continues to engage in organized murder I am complicit in violating that part of my faith tradition

2. Capital punishment is all about revenge. It has nothing to do with "healing", "closure" or seeing justice. It is about society seeking revenge for a crime, nothing more. Revenge is what "small minded" people seek. I really do not believe families that claim to experience a sense of justice when they see someone convicted of killing a loved one executed. I firmly believe there may be some momentary sense of relief that it is all over but is it a sense of justice or peace? I find that hard to believe. See #1

3. Our judicial system and especially our criminal justice system is seriously flawed. Juries get it wrong. Trials go wrong. There are corrupt police and prosecutors. This is not an indictment of all police and prosecutors but a symptom of a system that can be unfair and get it wrong. We know we sometimes get it wrong because so many have been exonerated through DNA and other evidence. We also know that we convict, incarcerate and execute more minority, especially African-American, prisoners than caucasians. If we got it wrong there is no going back once you have executed someone. As a member of society I don't want to be associated with a system that has the potential to get it wrong.

The sick mindset of the "kill them" crowd is summed up with inJustice Scalia's comment in a decision that factual innocence is no reason not to execute an accused as long as the trial met the minimum requirements of substantive and procedural due process. What? If the trial was conducted according to the book but the jury got it wrong and the person is actually innocent there is no reason not to execute the person?

4. Capital punishment as a punishment. I personally believe, regardless of the acts and crimes of which an accused is convicted, capital punishment is "cruel and unusual punishment" within the meaning of the Constitution. As such I believe it is patently unconstitutional. Further it costs more to pursue a capital case to execution than incarcerating someone for life. As well if someone was actually looking for 'revenge' isn't it worse to be incarcerated in a small cell except for a few hours for showering, eating and perhaps some physical activity and recreation for the rest of your life than being able to experience anxiety before your execution and then be dead? Prison life is hard. It is no place I would want to be.

[mwooldri]

49. My opposition to the death penalty is faith based too.

I can be accused of cherry-picking from the Bible (yes, I do admit that I do that) but the Ten Commandments - one of them was "You shall not commit murder." ( in ye olde English - Thou Shalt Not Kill ) Sure the book goes on with further commandments but I interpret them as applying to those people at that time.

And I agree with you 100%. To quote the words of Pope Francis talking about homosexuals in the church.. "Who am I to judge?"... I'd wager a bet that he probably thinks the same way about the death penalty too.

[RufusTFirefly]

96. Wonderful response! +1

Although I'm not a believer, I agree with your response 100 percent.
Wonderfully expressed.

[Jefferson23]

29. That is sad. It is not a difficult concept, it is unethical to execute people for any crime, period.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

57. Not only unethical, but there is no absolute need to execute anyone.

No real need, they can be held for life.
Please no cost arguments, we are better than that. Love and forgiveness is not easy to do.

[Jefferson23]

58. Exactly...thank you.n/t

[RufusTFirefly]

30. Proud to K and R

I was truly sickened by some of the bloodthirsty responses I saw in another thread.

[alarimer]

31. I am pretty much a bleeding heart when it comes to the justice system.

I think we need to be a lot more like Norway.

Our criminal justice system is inhumane, top to bottom.

Solitary confinement is, for most people, crueler than the death penalty. Our prison system is hideously cruel in so many ways.

I am opposed to the death penalty for a number of reasons. Because it's barbaric, quite frankly, and puts us on a list of countries that includes Iran and North Korea, company I don't particularly wish to keep. Also, it's applied in a racially biased manner. It's not a deterrent to others.

But the primary reason I oppose it is because it is impossible to be 100% certain about someone's guilt. Our jury system doesn't (and can't) operate that way. So we need to eliminate the death penalty as an option because if you make a mistake there is no going back. We have almost certainly executed people for crimes they didn't commit.

I am embarrassed and appalled at my fellow citizens' blood lust when it comes to the death penalty.

[BlueEye]

32. What is your opinion on Life Without the Possibility of Parole (LWOP)?

I personally oppose the death penalty, but I am still a strong believer that there must be an ultimate penalty for the most heinous crimes, which a life sentence would be. But I have heard recently that some on the left in Europe actually oppose LWOP on the grounds that it's basically a protracted death sentence that offers zero chance for reform.

[Nye Bevan]

37. I agree that LWOP is an appropriate sentence for the worst criminals.

While there is much to admire in the Norwegian justice system, I think it is totally wrong that the mass murderer of kids at the summer camp got a 21 year sentence. Yes, it can be renewed if he is still believed to be a danger to society, but memories fade and all it takes is an overly sympathetic judge in future to release him. Life without parole would have been the appropriate sentence in this case.

I also strongly believe that prison sentences should be served in safe, humane conditions, including air conditioning when appropriate.

[BlueEye]

39. Good points.

I agree completely. And yes, conditions in America's prisons have deteriorated to borderline inhumane levels from what I have seen and read. Frankly, incarceration as a whole is a shameful affair in this nation. Reform can only be so effective in the prisons. We must address the root of crime, which is the crushing poverty people have been allowed to fall into. Norway seems to have the right idea in that regard as well.

[IronLionZion]

34. Life in prison without parole is often a much better punishment

death is too easy.

[oldhippie]

70. Then, that kinda sounds like you support torture ...

death is too easy.

Let's kill him slowly.

[IronLionZion]

86. It sounds like you support pure bullshit

inserting false conclusions where it just isn't so.

[pipi_k]

118. I'm pretty sure

that your conclusion is wrong.


The reason death would be too easy on the criminal is because, unless he's totally disconnected from reality and doesn't feel a shred of regret for his heinous crime, a life sentence will give him the chance every. single. day. to reflect on what he did.

If he suffers emotional trauma because of that, it's his own problem.

He's basically torturing himself.

[oldhippie]

119. Good rationalization ....

... but you still say it's torture even if he did it to himself.

[pipi_k]

121. So what's your solution?

Hypnotize him so he forgets what he did?

[oldhippie]

123. Solution to what?

What problem?

[pipi_k]

128. Well this started

because it looked like you were assuming the other person in this subthread was advocating for torture by virtue of the fact that death for the convict would be too easy.

70. Then, that kinda sounds like you support torture ...


Let's kill him slowly.

To which the person replied that you were coming to a false conclusion.

To which I added that if a person suffers mental torture in prison by thinking of his crime each day, then it's basically his problem.

To which you replied that I still call it torture even if he did it to himself.

It sounds to me like you have a problem with someone being "tortured" in prison, even if it's by his own thoughts...

I dunno. I'm confused. I guess I'm not getting your point...

[oldhippie]

130. I can see the confusion .....

... especially here where things tend to get all mixed up. So I will try to be clear.

I think a sentence of life without possibility of parole is torture. I think one that advocates for it is advocating for torture.

I have a problem with someone being tortured in prison, even if it's by his own thoughts.

Better?

[pipi_k]

132. OK...

well that explains it.

Although I would also point out that possibility of parole would also be torture to a person the convict may have raped or otherwise violently assaulted. Or the family of a loved one murdered by the convict.

To be counting down the days to a possible time when the convict might be free to hunt them down. Or do the same thing to someone else.


I can surely empathize with, for example, the parents of a young person brutally murdered by someone who could, in 15 or 20 years time be released to carry on with his/her life as if nothing happened while my child would be dead.

That, to me, would also be torture. Totally and completely undeserved.

There are always two sides to every story.

[oldhippie]

141. And that's why ....

... I favor the death penalty for certain cases. I don't want the victim or their family to have to worry about the evil doer again, ever. For those most atrocious crimes, if it had happened that one of my loved ones was the victim, if the state didn't take action, I would. A lot of people wouldn't like that, but too bad. I don't have a big problem with vengeance.

[Puzzledtraveller]

35. hear, hear!

[leftyohiolib]

36. you can also use the d.p. and still be civilized

[Nye Bevan]

38. I disagree that strapping someone to a gurney and forcibly injecting them with poison

can be in any way considered "civilized".

"Civilized" is a prison sentence (up to and including life without parole, when applicable), served in safe, humane conditions, with a robust appeals process and generous compensation paid to those who turn out to have been wrongly convicted.

[Jefferson23]

42. No, that is not at all possible. A well mannered society does not find excuses to execute people.

If the state cannot distinguish between justice and vengeance it is not civilized.

[jtuck004]

43. It's not civilized just because we paralyze them so they can't scream. n/t

[RufusTFirefly]

44. Totally disagree

The death penalty is barbarism dressed in a cheap costume of civility.

Likewise, stabbing someone with a rusty knife is no more barbaric than dispatching them with a drone strike powered from a keyboard in Nevada.

A "civilized death penalty" is like "friendly fascism."

[cherokeeprogressive]

63. Raping and killing an ELEVEN MONTH old child should be cause for dismissal...

From the human race.

[Nye Bevan]

75. How about someone who rapes and kills an older child, or an adult?

Do you support the death penalty for all instances of rape then murder, or only when the victim is below a certain age? And if so, what age?

[cherokeeprogressive]

85. Capacity for self-defense would be a consideration.

Even more so than age. The 11 month old had ZERO capacity. Not even teeth to bite with or the self-awareness to know biting as defense.

Same with raping and killing an incapacitated elder.

You can try to shame me for feeling that way all night long. So can every other poster. Ain't nothin' changing.

[Nye Bevan]

89. Say someone rapes then murders a 20 year old woman who is too paralyzed with fear to defend herself.

I'm not sure that I agree that we should go easier on the perpetrator on the grounds that the victim could have attempted to defend herself, even though in the event she was unable to.

Personally I would advocate life without parole both in the case of the 11 month old victim and the 20 year old victim.

[cherokeeprogressive]

93. Good for you.

You are obviously a better man than I.

[Nye Bevan]

97. Yes, these are difficult questions,

and I understand that replying with a sarcastic one-liner is often easier than addressing them.

Have a good night.

[etherealtruth]

64. That is an opinion

Mine is: One CANNOT be civilized and support the death penalty

[flvegan]

67. Only if you redefine "civilized" first. n/t

[NuclearDem]

83. No you can't.

All you're doing is taking what used to be a public, brutal spectacle like drawing and quartering and whitewashing it by paralyzing the prisoner beforehand.

It's uncivilized.

[Chemisse]

40. I was on the fence regarding this issue for many years.

But now I feel, if murder is wrong, then capital punishment is wrong as well. The presence of a cheering crowd and the stamp of approval from society does not make it less than murder.

[davidpdx]

108. I was as well and decided firmly I was against it

within the last 5 years or so.

[spanone]

45. k&r...

[IkeRepublican]

46. Not all progressives and liberals are the same

That going-along-blindly stuff is Republican shit.

[azmom]

47. On an intellectual level

I can see why opposing the death penalty is the right thing. However, if someone tortured and killed my child, and they got their due process and everything else our justice system affords. I would want them to pay with their life. Call it revenge if you want to, I call it justice.

That's how I feel, and I don't think that makes me a monster. It makes me human

[Nye Bevan]

51. Your instinct is entirely understandable.

However, you would have to live through 20 years or so of appeals, clemency hearings, execution dates being set and postponed, and so on, each time being reminded of the horrible crime that took place. And their is no guarantee that you will achieve any kind of closure upon the execution taking place.

[azmom]

54. I think it's a good thing

That our criminal justice system affords defendants this type of due process. We shouldn't be putting people to death willy nilly. I personally would not let my child's death go unpunished, and I would want the punishment to fit the crime.

[kcr]

73. But it isn't up to family members of the victims. That's not the justice system.

And for good reason.

[azmom]

76. We have a justice system that for

Now allows for the death penalty, at least in some states. I don't feel the death penalty is morally wrong. I really don't. I just feel that there are some crimes that are so barbaric that death is a just punishment. Killing in itself is not morally wrong, and in some cases I would argue it is the moral thing to do. Just my opinion.

[Nye Bevan]

78. Would you, personally, be prepared to perform the execution?

Would you be prepared to press the plunger that sent the poison into the vein of the condemned criminal?

[azmom]

116. I think I could

However, there are limits as to what I would and I would not do. But, the answer to your question is yes. like you said in another post, these are difficult questions with no easy answers.

[kcr]

134. There's nothing difficult about it. What you want is essentially a lynch mob

in place of a justice system.

[840high]

84. Pretty much how I see it.

[whopis01]

56. There is nothing wrong with feeling that way.

I wouldn't blame anyone in that situation for any thought or feeling that they might have.

This is why it is important that it be society that enacts punishment against those who have committed crimes. The purpose of the penal system isn't (or shouldn't be) to exact revenge on behalf of those wronged. Its purpose is to protect and benefit society as a whole - not satisfy the emotions of an individual.

This is what allows your way of thinking to work - if someone tortured and killed my child, I would imagine that I would want them to die - I probably would want to kill them myself. But you, being somewhat removed from the situation, would oppose the death penalty. And hopefully a majority of society would do so as well. You, and others, would prevent me from participating in or condoning state-sanctioned murder. And I would do the same for you if the situation were reversed.

[azmom]

62. I don't see it as revenge at all

It's justice. We have a a criminal justice system that punishes people. We don't call it revenge. It's about fairness and justice. I would support you if someone took your child and sadistically killed them, and you wanted justice.

[kcr]

74. It's convenient to rationalize opinions by being a little bit creative with definitions.

But it just doesn't work that way. It is revenge, plain and simple. It's understandable. I can't imagine losing a child. I would never fault anyone for feeling this way. But the justice system should not be based on revenge.

[azmom]

77. It would be

An impartial judge and jury to decide. How does that make it revenge.

[kcr]

135. Your rational that they should have to die too because that's what's fair

and that's what they deserve, because that's what you'd want to happen if it happened to you. That's about revenge. You aren't considering what society should be doing. It's only about your feelings of what you'd want to happen because of what you think the perpetrator deserves. That isn't a civilized, rational response. It is an emotional, vengefully driven one.

[whopis01]

79. Who gets to define what justice is?

[flvegan]

95. You used the words "I...want" so it just got emotional.

It's revenge. Revenge is an emotional response, it's human. I won't call you a monster for thinking/feeling that way.

[jeff47]

140. Vengeance is not justice. (nt)

[azmom]

142. Don't the

Avengers fight for truth and justice?

[MADem]

48. Absolutely. You can even say "Why, I'd make an exception for that 'un" and not really mean it.

It's possible to be hyperbolic and at the same time believe that it's time to end the Death Penalty now.

[Agony]

50. BIG K&R

[Warpy]

52. They also don't grasp that a lifetime in prison is worse than execution.

It shouldn't be about sympathy or lack of it. It should be about protecting the population from a killer. Prison does that.

[TBF]

53. I have gone back and forth a bit after the

Timothy McVeigh case. Prior to that I was anti-death penalty and I have pretty much come full circle. It is very hard to justify keeping someone like McVeigh alive, but I guess the argument would be that you don't want him to become a martyr to others like him. Lock'em up and throw away the key.

Yesterday's event was barbaric.

[Niceguy1]

55. I dont support the dp

But honestly? I think karma showed her hand with this guy.

[etherealtruth]

59. Exactly n/t

[onehandle]

60. Imbedded trolls are doing what they do best. nt

[99Forever]

61. Killing is wrong.

Killing by governments is even more wrong. Always.

[NastyRiffraff]

65. There will come a day

hopefully in my lifetime but I doubt it, that we as a society will look back in horror because we used to put people to death legally. Kind of like we look back at slavery now, which was once considered normal and good by many people.

As for the governor of Oklahoma, Mary “I believe the legal process worked” Fallin, I think she is pure evil.

[Mbrow]

66. Great point, I

am against the death penalty just on GP if nothing else. It solves nothing and is applied unequally by race. Look at all the people who have been proven innocent over the years by DNA testing. easier to lock them up, treat their problems, anger management classes or just plain education...

[sarisataka]

72. Good point

The death penalty should be abolished not out of mercy but because it is wrong.

[Eleanors38]

82. I oppose the death penalty. Too many mistakes and wrongful convictions,

a violation, IMO, of due process and equal protection clauses, both. Now, if the murderer was attacking me or my family, then a kind of "death penalty" is in the offing. Fast, too.

[SalviaBlue]

90. Yes.

[Gore1FL]

91. The death penalty is wrong in all cases. n/t

[Burf-_-]

92. Valar Morghulis

It seems to me that over the ridiculous amount of time it required to generate life... on a few small rocks ... orbiting ... a few insignificant stars..... that if we truly are the Universe experiencing itself, why then, are we afforded such a telescopic view of our own powerless future. Entropy is easy to see, and clearly we remain unable to rationalize it. All men ... regardless of which planet, of which star... are +/- observers in the process of Oblivion. All Truth, and All Lies that we are able to define... eventually mean nothing at all. So then, does the journey truly trump the destination ? We will never know ? What does any of this have to do with the OP ?... maybe nothing.

[Pantagruelsmember]

98. Executions defy logic

Oppose capital punishment because it's illogical .
Studies show executions on average actually cost society more in dollars than "life in prison" .
They don't allow for verdict reversals on things like confessions and DNA evidence ( justice,in a word)
and frankly, IMHO, a quick execution doesn't provide the punishment of decades of confinement also known as rotting in a cell.

[snot]

99. How can having zero empathy for anyone ever be a plus?

If the death penalty were right, empathy for the convicted would not be a reason for opposing it.

[unreadierLizard]

112. Sorry, but

I can't find myself trudging up sympathy or empathy for a guy convicting of raping and murdering an 11 MONTH old child.

[pipi_k]

122. It's not a plus...

and it's not a minus.

It's just the way it is.

On the one hand is a guy who lacked empathy for another INNOCENT human being and committed a horrible crime.

On the other hand are lots of people who lack empathy for a guy who did horrible things to an innocent human being. We're not going to murder him. We just can't dredge up enough tears for someone like that.

And before anyone goes off on this, "But the government is going to kill him in YOUR name!" bullshit, I just have this to say...

That's a ridiculous attempt at using guilt.

Right along the lines of some religious fanatics claiming that Jesus died for our sins, therefore we OWE him...blah blah blah. No. Jesus didn't die for my sins, and had he asked I would have said "Don't bother".

I don't support the DP, so nobody is enforcing it in MY name...I just reserve my tears for people/things who haven't done something completely horrible.

[defacto7]

103. The death penalty is for the purpose of

shutting everyone up.

not me.

The DP is barbaric, uncivilized, archaic, nonsensical, illogical, without basis in need or effect, and a way for the prosecutors and law enforcement to bury facts and derail justice. That's the real closure.

[Ken Burch]

104. Well, yeah.

Where on DU were they saying that you can't?

[Enthusiast]

105. I'm with you, Nye Bevan. K&R!

[MrScorpio]

111. Count me in nt

[pipi_k]

120. But I think you are

trying to equate logic and emotion here.

OK, logically, I know that the DP is not a deterrent. I also know that once it's carried out, there's no second chance.

However, if I say I have no tears to shed for someone who is executed for a particularly heinous crime, there's no way anyone can force me to feel something I don't.

Nobody can force someone else to feel love or pity or sympathy or sadness or happiness.

Many issues are a mixture of logic and emotion, and for some people it's hard to stand rigidly on one side when the other side exerts just as much pull in that direction.l

[dipsydoodle]

117. The entire EU agrees with you.

Its a condition with all current 28 member states and applicants too.

[JayhawkSD]

124. Pleasantly surprised and enormously gratified

by the number of responses that say, in effect, "the issue is not about the criminals, it's about us."

Congratulations DU. You have it exactly right. When George Washington declared that British prisoners were not to be mistreated he made it clear that he held no brief for the British. He spoke of what it would do to his own fighters and to the American cause if they became torturers.

That we still impose the death penalty reflects badly on us as a people and as a society, regardless of the manner in which we impose it. That we can indulge ourselves in discussions about which is the "most humane manner" in which to kill someone means that we are fucking insane.

[DesertDiamond]

125. I totally agree! No matter what my anger is toward people who do others, doing the same thing...

to them -- it's just wrong, a negative cause, and it will bring us negative karma. I also think keeping them locked up for long periods -- or for life -- is a more effective tool for punishment, if you prefer, but I prefer to say it's a way to enable them to reflect and change themselves. We'd have plenty of room and money to keep them locked up if we stopped locking up drug users. Just saying.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

127. I agree that the death penalty is savage in general. I also agree that humans are affected

personally by the taking of their close ones' lives, and even the lives of innocents they do not know.

I also believe that if the death is accidental and unintentional (whether based on stupidity or not), is a completely different scenario from that in which, for example, a narcissist psycho undertakes to plot, plan, and carry out the torture, rape, and killing crime of an innocent, elderly, or child, and the same for those who do these sort of atrocities repeatedly, in serial form, as in serial torturers and killers.

I am QUITE comfortable with the offing of Nazi SS and Nazi camp exterminators, so why wouldn't I be quite comfortable with the offing of serial torturers and murderers in this society? In cases like that, it's mighty difficult to even grasp how a human like that would contribute anything whatsoever to humankind, and easy to see how they would benefit mankind by being removed from it. Some are less kind about it and believe that those who declare war upon innocents for profit (for example, Cheneys and Bushes) also should have been tried for murder as well. Torture and killing is not limited to the poor, as it isn't only they who engage in it. The wealthy (such as the Cheneys and Bushes and Hitlers) engage in it on a far larger scale.

So, what can I say? On the one hand, I do understand that killing itself does not eliminate crime, and on the other, I see how some humans do not deserve to be permitted to live. It is a complicated subject.

[steve2470]

133. agree completely nt

[Orsino]

136. Accused, tried and convicted murderers.

But accused, tried and convicted with how much accuracy?

If you can't muster any empathy for those who commit capital crimes, can you scrape together a little sympathy for the wrongly convicted who are no more criminal than you are? Would you volunteer to be executed for a crime you didn't commit? Would you offer the state the power to silence you forever in order to hide their mistakes?

If you are aware that people are wrongly executed every year, how can you support the execution of even one person? If you are unaware that people are wrongly executed, how much is your opinion worth?

[SunSeeker]

137. Yes, nuance is difficult for some. nt

[Spitfire of ATJ]

138. Don't you know EVERYONE who is pro-cat MUST BE anti-dog?

And what have you got against dogs? What the hell is WRONG with you??? Let me tell you about dogs to win you over.

[Riftaxe]

143. That is dangerous thinking there...

Soon you might support the death penalty knowing that at least one person won't rape, shoot and bury alive a woman again.


Damned dangerous once you walk that path the board will never forgive you, there will be vigorous shouts from basements across the land! (They will tell you how much they appreciate life, but not the lives of the victims). It is just the nature of things.