They are taking away our open highways

[woo me with science]

Last edited Thu May 1, 2014, 09:35 AM - Edit history (1)

There is a deeply symbolic aspect to this particular betrayal.

It's about how it feels to live in America.

This is not America anymore.

[otherone]

1. I87 in NYS is a toll road. I84 is not.

I wonder why?

[jberryhill]

5. I get the impression...

...a lot of folks haven't traveled in the Northeast much.

[greatauntoftriplets]

9. Or in Northern Illinois.

[jberryhill]

12. I've been sitting here for two days, wondering...

Gee, is I95 an interstate?

[greatauntoftriplets]

18. Well, it has that "I" in the name.

[SheilaT]

100. Or across Kansas.

A section of I35 is 335 and is a toll road, as is part of I70.

The Boulder Turnpike from Boulder to Westminster used to be a toll road.

[bunnies]

105. lol. I didnt even know there were highways WITHOUT tolls!

I paid three just last night.

[jberryhill]

107. I know, right

[progressoid]

144. I travelled 18000+ miles last year.

Probably half of them on interstates. Never paid a toll.

[bunnies]

145. Damn. We have 12 in tiny little NH.

They're just about everywhere in New England. I'm shocked to find out they aren't everywhere. I had no idea!

[Hestia]

127. Here in Ark. I think (remembering what grandpa said) that it is in the Highway Charter

that all roads are free, though they are trying to change that. I hope they don't.

Grandpa was quite proud of the fact that roads are free here (we get taxed hugely in other areas).

Now when we went to visit cousins in Okla. Yuck, all the toll roads.

[FarCenter]

22. Parts of I-95, 76, 80, 294, 90, 355 are toll as are many bridges/tunnels on other interstates

[liberal N proud]

38. I77/I64 in West Virginia and I70 in Kansas

Most toll roads are in the eastern half of the US.

[Lasher]

103. That I77/I64 section started out as the West Virginia Turnpike.

It was later incorporated into the Interstate Highway system. After that, two lane undivided turnpike segments became a death trap for travelers who had begun their trips on four lane divided Interstate highways. The last Turnpike section was finally upgraded by 1987, for conformance with Interstate standards.

Some toll booths have since been removed, making the turnpike's northern 11 miles toll free. But most of it remains a toll road all the way south from Charleston to the Virginia state line. I wish we would pay off the bonds and make it a free highway but I'll probably never see that in my lifetime.

[Scruffy Rumbler]

129. I 87 from NYC to Albany is toll.

I 87 from Albany to Canada is a FREEway we refer to as the Northway. A toll to use our highways is just another tax on the 99%.

[kristopher]

247. How old are they? Tolls are for paying off initial construction.

In general, federally funded highways are allowed to recoup the money for construction, and then the tolls are removed. Tolls are not part of the system for maintaining these federally funded highways, however. That is a shared state/fed responsibility. The change will allow the states to exact moneys based on usage in a way that is divorced from a gasoline tax.

One reason a change is required is that mandated improvements in gas mileage and the move to electric automobiles means that there are less revenues for the same miles driven. Some states are already feeling the pinch.

[RKP5637]

2. America is a faded dream in many many ways. n/t

[woo me with science]

7. +1 There have been a lot of vicious, malignant betrayals lately.

This one, to me, is visceral. It's symbolic.

It's about what it feels like to live in America. The expansive highways, open to anyone, no matter who you were. Just hop on the road and drive.

This changes something fundamental.

[msanthrope]

16. You realize that someone's gotta fix those highways, right??

We here in the Northeast Corridor applaud the fact that red states might actually have to pay their own share.

[Lizzie Poppet]

30. Without tolls, they might have to start taxing gasoline.

Oh, wait...

[liberal N proud]

42. BINGO!

[woo me with science]

44. *Thank* you.

[msanthrope]

62. Sure. Get a gas increase through the current Congress. Let me know how it

goes...


Or...the red states could increase their gas taxes.

[KittyWampus]

70. Compare what we pay for gasoline to Europe. Oh, wait….

but you'll still get +1's.

[Lizzie Poppet]

73. Exactly.

Need more highway maintenance funding? Increase the gasoline tax...rather than impede traffic, set up a huge, expensive infrastructure to collect and account for toll revenue, etc. Yes, owners of more efficient vehicles will pay less. That's a good thing: it provides incentive no to waste resources.

[djean111]

186. Gasoline taxes in Europe pay for health care and other social services.

[Recursion]

77. And that's... better? Less regressive? Less of a burden to the poor?

I can't really see a difference other than the tolls don't hit agriculture, which a lot of people see as a virtue.

[Lizzie Poppet]

84. In some ways yes, it's better.

No extra infrastructure for collecting the revenue, from the booths to the duplicate accounting system. Incentive to drive a more fuel-efficient vehicle. No added stop-and-go situations on the highway, which wastes fuel and adds to emissions. No opening for additional NSA surveillance.

The point about agriculture is a very good one, though. Perhaps a fuel tax offset for agriculture?

[Recursion]

89. I know the Federal one does already, I think many states do

So there's an infrastructure for collecting money from cars, or an infrastructure for refunding money to other things. I'm not buying the "America is dead" idea from this. It's a way to charge more for using gasoline.

[Lizzie Poppet]

101. Yeah, in some places the infrastructure is already in place.

In others, it isn't. And I think the other points still apply.

[Recursion]

104. Look, I'm not riding up on my horse and saying toll roads are the best possible idea

I just don't see any other proposal to tax hydrocarbon use out there, and we need to do something.

[Lizzie Poppet]

110. I agree that that need is urgent.

I think increasing fuel taxes is a better way, but I certainly acknowledge that there are problems with that approach, too - particularly the highly regressive nature for urban poor who are stuck with car commuting. I think one of the best transportation infrastructure uses for such revenues, wherever they come from, is mass transit improvements. I'm lucky enough to live in a city with a very good transit system (Portland), but in some places, mass transit sucks mightily.

[Hestia]

130. Here in this state tractor trailers don't pay their fair share (thanks legislature) and are allowed

to travel heavier than other states. Thanks to that, it is mostly tractor trailers on our free interstates, tearing up the roads, thinking the speed limit doesn't apply to their tractor. Once all pay their fair share in fuel taxes, then we can discuss tolls, but until then, there really isn't much to discuss.

[SammyWinstonJack]

92. Heh!

[gcomeau]

93. How would that be better?

You're still taxing the act of using the gasoline if you put a toll on the Interstate. But doing it only on interstates allows a lot of people who barely get by and just need to commute to and from work inside the cities every day to avoid the burden more. A gasoline tax is significantly more regressive than a toll on specific interstates.

And the transportation infrastructure in this country is slipping downhill fast. Something has to be done about it...

[AzDar]

86. Do you really think those prospective tolls won't go right into China or Saudi Arabia's

pockets? Boy, do I have a (toll) bridge to sell you...

[GeorgeGist]

178. I surrender to your genius.

[AzDar]

181. It's better that way.

[dionysus]

170. sob, sob, you're celebrating the death of freedom!111!1!!eleventy!

[msanthrope]

182. Kerouac wouldn't have paid tolls!!! nt

[dixiegrrrrl]

197. You do realize that there are blue states without tolls, don't you?

Everything does not have to be a red state/blue state issue.

[nilesobek]

27. The first thing I noticed in the Northeast

was the toll roads.

I drove right through a tollbooth and thought I was in trouble but the policewoman at the next checkpoint just laughed and made me pay the toll.

Everyone up there drives 20mph over the speed limit.

[RKP5637]

32. Living in today's America is like living in a huge corporation with

really little say as we have no representation for the majority of the people. Politicians are elected with vast sums of money by exceptionally wealthy donators, and naturally the politicians will do the bidding of those who placed them into office, as well as keep them in office. What once made America is consistently being dismantled and often R=D=I. Additionally, SCOTUS has been of no help but to hand the country over to wealthy individuals. ... but IMO many Americans just don't get the big picture of what is going on.

[woo me with science]

49. Yup, too busy trying to survive.

And marinated in purchased propaganda and lies.

[RKP5637]

69. As one of my friends says, what does one do. We work and work trying to stay afloat, many of

us also work to get politicians elected and nothing really changes. The root cause IMO is for $$$$$ R=D=I. In that area IMO they are pretty much cut from the same piece of cloth, at least the ones I know. Hence, we stagnate in this mess year after year with many politicians in office to serve themselves IMO. The core problem is vast sums of money in politics, how could one even expect it to be different.

[Agschmid]

46. I pay tolls on almost all interstates already...

The only state I travel in commonly where there aren't tolls is VT.

[bobduca]

115. Might as well ruin it for the rest of the country!

Race to the bottom!

[Recursion]

117. No, the race to the bottom is being done by states who refuse to raise enough revenues to pay

for their infrastructure.

The states with Interstate tolls today aren't the ones whose bridges are falling into the rivers.

[Agschmid]

123. +1

[2naSalit]

135. I hope CT has cleaned up its act

on that. I recall that back in the 80s a couple toll road bridges in CT collapsed and they ended up tearing out the I95 toll booths a few years later... those were the days when stuff actually got investigated and consequences were imposed.

Wonder if they were rebuilt? Haven't been back there for many years.

[Recursion]

137. I remember an overpass in Bridgeport melted in 2005

But that was because a truck carrying natural gas hit it and exploded, which I'll file under "Act of God".

In comparison, every single bridge across the Mississippi is in critical need of repair, and three have collapsed in the past decade.

[2naSalit]

142. I also recall

that when Ronnie Raygun was in office the I80 corridor in PA, specifically, was in a constant state of repair with single lane travel for miles upon miles with barrel partitions which seemed to move from location to location while work was never taking place in the "construction" zones. Well, actually, any "work" being done was that which tore up the road surface but was rarely if ever actually repaired. I remember conversations with other truckers in which we concluded that the state was just moving the barrels around so that they could get the maximum $$ in aid for federal road repair while doing absolutely nothing but extending the "construction" zone mileage for the money. It seemed that at the time there was some policy where state received aid for federal roadways under repair that was increased by mileage of work zones with no oversight. this went on for years, and each consecutive year you would see the barrels come out in spring and remain until the snow came and the holes they did patch up were far worse than when the alleged work began, and the zones were the exact same locations as the previous year.

Since I retired I have purposely avoided transportation policy due to previous overload.

[BuelahWitch]

141. Kansas has tolls. Our roads still stuck.n/t

[MyOwnPeace]

167. It seems to me

that the latest report I saw showed that Pennsylvania has more bridges in worse shape than any state in the US - yet we've got I-70/I-76 as the PA Turnpike - a nasty (relating to cost/price to drive) toll road.
PA also tried to make I-80 a toll road but the fed would not approve.
I don't really have a problem with the toll road - they are trying to make improvements, like using EZ-Pass and making the entire Turnpike electronic.
Gee, what will the $20-an-hour toll takers (who got their job because their uncle/brother-in-law/etc. also worked there) do when that happens?
The Turnpike system in PA has been a "corruption center" from the get-go.

[KurtNYC]

39. Our standard of living peaked in 1968

Americans are optimistic and hard working people but the system that would let us use that work and optimism to better our situation is now broken.

[woo me with science]

52. Yes. It is a systemic problem.

They have been systematically dismantling our avenues for fighting back.
establishing the surveillance state, strangling journalism, building a propaganda machine, punishing whistleblowers...

And now making our highways less free and handing the internet over to corporate control.

[RKP5637]

58. When one has a severely skewed capitalistic system, all the wealth at

one end, it's hard to even remotely imagine how the system can work for the majority of the populace. The system that once worked for "we the people" has been slowly and surely dismantled over the decades by both R's and D's. There are really few safeguards today to keep the financial system in check. We think there are, but they are hollow. Hoarding, greed and ruthlessness have become a virtue, apparently, of today's America. It's a failing system, but no politician is really going to stand up if they are on the gravy train.

[nationalize the fed]

3. Just think of toll booths as checkpoints

If I am against this, am I a racist?

"ihre papiere bitte"

[jberryhill]

6. Sure, but...

First, they'll limit driving to people who are licensed, and they'll take a photograph of everyone who wants to drive.

Then, they'll make everyone register their car, and they'll make everyone put a numbered plate on the back of it...

[msanthrope]

10. Don't forget that the NSA can monitor you with EZPass. You are stasi if you have one. nt

[jberryhill]

13. No wonder Hitler liked the autobahn!

[msanthrope]

26. You mock...but I remember an episode of Law&Order where someone's alibi for murder

was completely blown by the data collected by EZ Pass....... and the kicker was was that the guy had taken off the EZ Pass put it in the glove compartment and paid cash through the toll.

EZ Pass, the NSA and the entire surveillance state still got their man.

[Agschmid]

50. Maybe don't commit murder then...

Just a suggestion.

[jberryhill]

53. What's next? Grazing fees?

[msanthrope]

65. Thank you....that's what I've thought all along. nt

[Bobbie Jo]

116. Evil Gubmint Encroacherz!1!

[greatauntoftriplets]

20. The HORROR!

But why do they have to be BAD photographs?

[woo me with science]

14. They will be used as Homeland Security checkpoints.

I remember reading about it sometime back.

Of course the propaganda crew is out in force trying to pooh pooh this. But the theft of our open roads, in the United States of America, is a visceral thing that changes how this country feels to those who live in it.

This is a core freedom being taken from us.

[Skidmore]

33. A pedestrian hacker can hijack a baby monitor in your home, for pity sake.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/strangers-hack-baby-monitor-23512318

Do you have any concerns about this?

[Agschmid]

51. Nope.

[FSogol]

140. ALCOA!

[Bobbie Jo]

246. Industrial strength

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[LanternWaste]

149. Great prophecies...

Great prophecies...

[dionysus]

173. "I remember reading about it sometime back." hoooookay alex jones....

NSA checkpoints to send you to the FEMA camps!

[Generic Other]

225. Did you see the website that this image came from?

I kind of liked this one at first, but the guy's other stuff is appalling! Hideous rightwing hatemongering. I guess I should have been clued in by the chemtrails in the sky.

[MohRokTah]

4. I support thie move to tolling.

The Republicans won't pay to repair infrastructure so something had to be done.

[msanthrope]

11. Red states need to pay their fair share. nt

[woo me with science]

15. Of course you do.

You have supported every corporate outrage and assault on our liberties by this administration since you arrived.

[MohRokTah]

21. That's a ludicrous statement. eom

[ChisolmTrailDem]

82. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

Mr Ludicrous Statement didn't like what you had to say...

Mail Message
On Thu May 1, 2014, 10:16 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Of course you do.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4894723

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Personal attack.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu May 1, 2014, 10:22 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The author of the post alerted-upon in this case has earned my trust and respect. I am inclined not to hide one of that poster's comments. Besides which, in this case, I see nothing that violates community standards.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Stating facts in evidence is not a "personal attack". MohRokTah, stop being an ass and stop being a crybaby. Oh, is that a personal attack? Sooooorry...NOT!
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Direct 'attacks' are fine as long as there is no name-calling or excessive rudeness which this post does not demonstrate. Is this just the BOG run wild again? Address the direct criticism in the discussion thread.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[JimDandy]

126. Wow, alerting on facts. What's next?

I'm tired myself of all these authoritarian bots spewing "just accept it" posts all over this board, but I don't alert on their opinionated crap.

[MohRokTah]

128. And now a ludicrous accusation.

I did not alert on that post.

[woo me with science]

153. Thank you for posting this. :)

DU knows the score, and DU has my respect. Thanks for letting me see this.

[msanthrope]

8. Never driven in the northeast, huh??? Pay your freight...the bridges don't fix themselves. nt

[woo me with science]

17. And here comes the mocking.

That is another thing that has changed in America. The omnipresent political messaging, telling us that everything is A-okay in the USA.

[msanthrope]

19. Paying your fair share is completely defensible. You wanna drive on I95???

Pay your fair share.

[woo me with science]

24. No, you will not divert this into a discussion about paying.

It is possible to pay for infrastructure without doing this to our highways. Without taking away our open roads.

The apologism in this thread is predictable, as well as predictably rude and unconvincing. The automatic sneering and defense of every corporate assault on the 99 percent is expected by now. This is what it feels like to live in a corporate-ruled country in which incessant propaganda and marketing to the public have replaced attempts to actually represent the people.

The feel of the open highways, and the ability to hop on them and go anywhere, no matter who you are....This is something fundamental to being American.

[msanthrope]

28. It's already a discussion about paying....a toll. But why are you

bemoaning this now????

Your fellow citizens in the Northeast Corridor has been paying tolls for decades. Why is it okay for us to pay but you , not?

[jberryhill]

36. Plus....

....they don't charge a toll when your father lets you drive the car around the parking lot when he comes to visit anyway.

[msanthrope]

61. See....it's possible to get across America avoiding major highways!!!

http://m.

[bobduca]

96. "There's no trick to it, it's just a simple trick!"

I thought that this quote by the Simpsons character Brad Goodman was somehow relevant to your personal brand.

[Travis_0004]

234. This shows the unfairness of tolls

Some pay them, some don't.

Raise the gas tax. Everybody who drives pays it.

[TheFarseer]

262. id rather none of us paid tolls

I'd rather raise the gas tax and not have any toll roads. And btw it's stupid that gas tax doesn't go to general revenue and highway funds don't come out of general revenue. Don't be on the side of something that is totally wrong just because youre lonely in toll booth hell

[snooper2]

57. well, you can stick to surface streets....

just take a little longer to get anywhere LOL

[whistler162]

81. and a much more scenic trip.

[awoke_in_2003]

165. If they get this one through...

they will go after those next.

[christx30]

99. We already pay our fair share

with everything else involved in driving. Mandatory insurance, inspections, registration, gas tax, no one is getting off scot free, except for people that don't have cars. Maybe you want toll sidewalks to get money from pedestrians and bicyclists.
This is just a cash grab by the Feds.

[msanthrope]

121. No...the red states don't pay their fair share for 1-95 or their bridges or roads.

That's the point of these tolls.

[nationalize the fed]

23. + 330 million

mocking and ridicule has worked wonders.

Past time for me to consider emigration. I'd like to spend the last half of my time here on this planet somewhere else.

People telling us to pay for what we use is missing the point. We're all paying for the wrong things and it's getting worse.

http://nationalpriorities.org/cost-of/

^the "Left" used to care about that

[jberryhill]

41. Emigration, lol

You have OBVIOUSLY never done much driving outside of the US, so I hope you weren't planning to get away from toll roads with this plan of yours.

[nationalize the fed]

64. You have absolutely *no idea* where I've driven

I hope you weren't planning to get away from toll roads with this plan of yours.

The main reason would be to get away from a nation full of people that have seemingly lost their minds.

lol it up.

[jberryhill]

71. Ok... I've paid highway tolls...

In Europe (on the continent and the UK), Canada, India, Kenya, Australia, China, Argentina, Brazil, and New Zealand, which I can remember off the top of my head. Pro-tip: I don't recommend driving in India, and it is cheaper to hire a driver than to rent a car.

I've never driven in any country which does not have them.

Which country are you planning to emigrate to?

[adirondacker]

219. Iceland. But don't hit any sheep because you're liable to the farmer who owns it.

Their main paved roads are actually pleasant to drive on. It's amazing that they can afford the road system and infrastructure that they do given the sparse population density outside of Reykjavik, which has heated streets and sidewalks for snowmelt.



Just don't get off the beaten path unless you are experienced and prepared...I came upon a Jeep Cherokee that had gotten stuck in the middle of a similar section of river and the water was flowing over the roof. The driver and passenger escaped through the passenger window and swam to shore. I never got stuck, but it is daunting to have your wheels spinning in the gravel and the current pushing you downstream simultaneously. River reading comes in handy and whatever you do, don't let off the gas once you commit ....

|

[bobduca]

95. It's a Living

Apparently

[sabrina 1]

250. It's become more and more childish though, have you noticed? To me that says either

they are running out of funds for that messaging, or they are getting more desperate as the people learn more and more about what they are up to.

[MineralMan]

25. Tolls on Interstate highways have been around for

a while. I've encountered them myself and have always had to make a decision. Normally, I plan my trips ahead of time and make that decision before going. What I do is look at maps. If there is a reasonable alternate route, I go that way. If not, I consider whether taking that more convenient route is worth paying the toll.

Only a couple of times have I decided to use the toll road. That has led me to bypass it in interesting ways that have taken me through places I would not have seen. The number of interesting towns with interesting restaurants and shops I have encountered has more than compensated for the longer or slower drive.

In other cases, I have decided to use the toll road. Generally, this has been when time was a major issue. In those cases, the toll was part of the expense of the trip.

Bottom line: There's always an alternate route. There is always an option.

[SoCalDem]

34. The "road less taken" ...(if you have time)

takes you through some pretty wonderful places that were left out when they straightened out all the roads...and in those out of the way places you can often find pretty good food too.

[MineralMan]

48. Yes. For long, pre-planned trips, it's easy to plan around

toll roads. The real issue comes in around major urban areas, where tolls on interstate highways can present some real challenges for both commuters and commercial travelers. Tolls are used in Minnesota only for high speed lanes on Interstates. Mostly they're for single-occupancy cars, but that may be changing down the road. I don't commute, so my travel is almost always during off-peak hours. Such toll or HOV lanes aren't really important to me.

For a few long-distance trips, I've actually bypassed entire states where the only reasonable route was a toll road. On the other hand, when I've had to make a trip in the shortest possible time, I haven't minded paying a toll if it saved me hours of travel time. It's all a matter of choice for me. For others, of course, the choices are less simple.

As I learned today, when the Interstate Highway System was first started, most of the early segments of it were, in fact, toll roads. Some of those are still toll roads, particularly in the Eastern states.

On principle, I prefer to avoid toll roads, but I'll use them if necessary. There's almost always a way to bypass them, though, and some of those routes are far more enjoyable to drive. For example, I detest the Pennsylvania Turnpike. It's exceptionally boring.

[FarCenter]

76. Did a quick check and it appears there are no non-toll ways across the Hudson south of Albany

From here going west, PA Tpk versus I-80 is tossup. PA Tpk is usually in much better repair with predictable amenities. I-80 varies considerably in age/repair of surface, and there are more trucks to contend with.

End to end, the turnpike is $31.38 EZ-Pass and $43.90 cash. That's around 8.72 cents/mile for a passenger car.

[LuvNewcastle]

47. The alternate routes are where it's at.

They're especially nice if you're on a motorcycle. I mean, what's the point of taking yourself out of the cage and being able to see more if you're going to take the damned interstate? America's an interesting place, but you can't experience it on an interstate. It doesn't save enough time for me to give up the scenery and the experience of meeting the people as I pass through. Taking the road less traveled really does make all the difference.

[MineralMan]

55. I agree. Now, if I'm doing a trip across the entire

country, I'm going to pick the fastest route for most of the journey. But, for casual travel, I really, really prefer smaller highways, and choose them whenever I can. My wife and I are thinking of a Hwy 61 trip to New Orleans, trying to use the old highway for every bit of it we can. I think it would be a great trip, with the drive being the vacation, not the destination. We'd probably use other routes for the return.

I've driven across the United States on every East-West Interstate route. Some more than once. But, I often drop down to alternate routes for part of the trips.

Bottom line is that I always prefer to go somewhere on a route I haven't traveled before, and I hate returning on the same route I took going. I love small town America!

[Hestia]

132. You'll love Highway 61 down towards NOLA. Be sure and tour a couple of the old homes that are

open. A lot of them have the original Audubon plates & prints from when he lived in the area. Of course Miss. is flat from Tenn. line until you get to around Greenville, then the scenery gets interesting.

[MineralMan]

150. Thanks! We've been the full length of Hwy 61 in Minnesota,

and want to see the rest of it. I'm a big fan of old routes in the US. I have a dream of driving US Hwy 2 across the northern states someday. I'm not sure I'll ever be able to do it, though. I have driven old Hwy 66 from California to Chicago, though, and did it before I-40 was completed.

[woo me with science]

56. You speak as though it will be optional for the poor.

Those separate but equal schools were pretty nice, too.

[LuvNewcastle]

98. ?

I'm just talking about what I prefer when I travel. Besides, I'm part of the poor of which you speak. I'm against tolls on our highways; I'm just saying I don't like to travel on the interstate, anyway. Sometimes, due to time restrictions, interstate travel is unavoidable, and I can't afford to pay tolls if I have to travel on it. Understand?

[JimDandy]

134. There is no need for corporations tolling our

taxpayer funded roads. Why the eastern states ever started self-limiting their own freedom, discriminating against lower income drivers and double taxing themselves by privatizing highways is beyond me.

[questionseverything]

146. no offense mm but sure for you with all the time and resources

you might need available there is always an option

but what about the poor trying to make their way from one place to another to find work,living on a string?

i see this as being similar to making homelessness illegal ,you know the new laws were folks can not have a blanket wrapped around them in public,or no personal items in public, no sitting down in public

i prefer the oil tax give aways be taken first and/or the gas tax raised

or stop droning all over the world and use that money

or stop collecting info on every1 and use that money

[MineralMan]

151. I'm not sure who you think I am, really.

I have neither all that time nor all those resources. I'm 68 years old, and have driven through all but 4 states in my lifetime. Most of those trips were made on minimum resources. I've never been affluent. I have always carefully planned my routes, and still do. Toll roads have always been something I've avoided whenever I could.

[questionseverything]

200. affluent compared to the kochs,no

but affluent compared to a family living in their car, yes

generally i find you intelligent and honest and since you have said you have been successful i believe you.....

With 30+ years of professional magazine and book writing experience, I can offer your business compelling SEO-rich web content, custom blogging, and social media services. All Content Copyright 2009-2014 by George Campbell

////////////////////////////

during the dust bowl families loaded everything they had on their trucks and moved west searching for a better life.....i do not want a system in place where they could be stopped by tolls from entering lands of new opportunity

[MineralMan]

201. Free roads are readily available. They always have been.

A little slower trip, but free.

[questionseverything]

207. the discussion is about that being changed

by adding many additional toll roads and bridges

/////////////////////

you can not say there will always be free roads in the future when folks up and down the thread are already saying out east they are already not available

[MineralMan]

208. Well, you're going to pay to cross the Hudson River, for sure.

I know of no free way to drive into NYC. But those tolls have been in place for a very long time. I don't know how many impoverished people are planning to drive into NYC or any of the cities around there, though. Parking will cost far more than crossing the bridges. Here in Minnesota, though, you can drive right into the cities, and our unemployment rate is among the lowest in the country.

[MineralMan]

209. Depends how you measure success, really.

I do OK, but we're still living check to check. I'll be working until I drop.

[questionseverything]

213. we also are in the work til we drop club

<shrugs> it is ok cause the club is filled with all the best people!

but still we need to remember there r those in same club without benefit of a roof over head, heat, electricity, net access ,ect and work to protect them (even from toll roads)

to me that is what being a democratic is, working to protect the "least of them"

wasn't the whole birdgegate scandal a shining example of tolls being used as slush funds for friendly pols and a weapon against unfriendly pols?

i just think there are better ways to pay for road upkeep like discontinuing the tax breaks for oil companies

and/or discontinuing some of the "alphabet agencies" activities

[Skidmore]

29. Oh, the humanity!

Open highways, my hiney. Highways are not a natural feature of the topography. They are manmade last time I checked. Nor are they a right guaranteed by the constitution. Do roads just spontaneously belch up asphalt from underneath to fill the potholes and repair the cracks when they have buckled from the elements? Are bridges and overpasses able to shore up girters and roadbeds on a self-maintenance schedule? Certainly every highway has an auto-paint program embedded to redraw the lane lines and traffic signs reseed themselves seasonally. Jeez. Takes money. In the absence of a Congress refusing to levy taxes or to allocate monies for infrastructure maintenance, this is the outcome. You can't lament the degrading of infrastructure and then whine because a step is taken to address it.

[giftedgirl77]

31. This is the best response I have seen so far.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[JoePhilly]

45. Outrage ... first, last, and always!!!!!

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

85. Sure I can.

You can't lament the degrading of infrastructure and then whine because a step is taken to address it.

If I think it's the wrong step.

By your logic, any method chosen to address any problem should be immune from criticism.

To use the ludicrous extreme example, putting to death everyone who commits a crime would put an end to recidivism.

The world is not binary. Not liking one given solution to a problem does not mean you can't bemoan the problem. It means you probably like a *different* solution.

That's why we even have politics at all. Because people don't agree on how to solve problems. If we all went with your logic, every problem would simply be 'solved' by the very first means proposed, rather than the best one, and we'd spend all of our time working to fix problems created by the solution to other problems.

[Skidmore]

102. Simply not liking something doesn't solve the problem.

We live in a very small village in the midst of farming country. Most of the villages in this area are unincorporated, including ours. However, we feel a responsibility to contribute to maintaining our infrastructure. Our sewer system, for example, needed to be repaired a couple of years ago. The village got together and contributed funds from each household and labor to repair it. We don't have a roads department, but pay the county to maintain the single road that goes through town by plowing it in the winter.

One of the towns nearby blew through their winter snow budget this year and the streets have suffered greatly because of salt and the plowing. Huge potholes were appearing and making travel on some streets and road difficult. The town provided the asphalt and asked for citizens to step up and help with the labor. They brought the fill to each neighborhood and the men and women of the neighborhood stepped up and filled the holes. Yes, that is likely a temporary fix but it made those streets safer to travel on and helped to prevent additional deterioration until a more substantial repair could be made.

The first option is not always the most desirable but neither is doing nothing. We don't treat our home that way. If we let a small drip in the plumbing continue unrepaired, the the chances we will have problems with the walls or ceiling because of it will be greatly increased and the cost of repair will grow exponentially. Why wait until it all falls down around you.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

109. So if the winter gets too cold, will you

rip up the wood in the walls and ceilings of your houses to burn for heat?

Again, when solving a problem, it's best to look at what other problems your last 'solution' will create, and figure out if they're worse long term than the problem you started with.

This looks like one of those 'bipartisan' solutions where you take bad republican ideas and democrats back them so that 'something' can get done, because otherwise 'Team No' will simply block anything that isn't a bad idea.

What needs to be done is getting rid of 'Team No', not giving in to their stupid ideas time and again, and making them 'bipartisan' stupid ideas, thus telling the voters there's no point in voting for one team over the other.

[Laelth]

155. Hear, hear! n/t

-Laelth

[BuelahWitch]

162. But how will we get rid of them

when we're passing stuff like this during an election year?

[Glorfindel]

88. You're exactly right. I have seen no toll roads or bridges here in darkest Mississippi

Why should my family in the northeast pay tolls themselves PLUS PAY TO SUBSIDIZE HIGHWAYS IN MISSISSIPPI? I only get blank stares when I ask that question of people here. Tolls on interstates would go a long way toward fixing this inequality.

[Agschmid]

195. Yay logic!

[SidDithers]

204. Well said...

Sid

[sofa king]

35. Oh, this is definitely America!

Chances are, if you live east of the Mississippi River, there is a major thoroughfare going near you that has the following name:

__(City it heads to)__ (Turn)Pike__

And that road, 150 years ago, was the most important road in your area, and it was a toll road. Almost every major and regularly maintained road was a privately owned toll road. A "turnpike" was the revolving gate apparatus that toll-payers went through to get on the highway. We still call them "turnstyles" when individual people use them.

I know that Virginia tried to place the burden of local road maintenance on the local population, as mother England had tried to do for about 500 years of history in which travel was a nightmare.

That never worked; one reason being that cart and wagon maintainers had an interest in repairing damage caused by bad roads; another being that local commerce always knew a quicker, easier, cheaper back way to market and had an interest in keeping outsiders from showing up first.

"Whichever way you choose to go," cautioned Robert E. Lee to a visitor to Lexington, "you will soon wish you had taken the other way."

The partial solution to the crisis of bad local roads was to gather investors together and build a turnpike. Turnpikes were disasters of their own--virtually everyone who struggled down one asked themselves for what, exactly, they were paying, while investors always wondered why, since they had a captive market, they couldn't double the fees, pay the road off and make a profit. (This situation still exists in Virginia with the privately owned "rich fuckers' road" that bypasses Loudoun County's traffic and goes straight to the airport.)

The near disastrous state of roads in America persisted all the way into the 20th Century. Long before he became SACEUR and eventually President, in 1919, Dwight Eisenhower was tasked to help lead a truck caravan across the United States from Washington to San Francisco. It took 23 days!

The personal experience of that one fellow seems to have changed the United States dramatically, as it was Eisenhower who promoted and found the funding for the national highway project that made the United States so much smaller and less insular.

So were it not for Ike, America would probably still be a spaghetti network of crumbling roads and tourist trap turnpikes designed to drain travelers of their money.

Those of you from New Jersey probably would not notice the difference.

[LuvNewcastle]

74. Thanks for the history.

It's the government's responsibility to keep those roads up just like they paid for them to begin with. If the roads are kept up with income tax money, that would mean they were being kept up with a progressive tax instead of tolls, which would essentially be a regressive tax.

And just because they put up with all those toll roads in the Northeast doesn't mean the rest of us should. If the people up there had raised enough hell, they would have found an alternate way to pay for the upkeep of those roads. I know the people around here won't put up with it. I doubt the rest of the country will, either. People are already fucking broke. An extra tax is what might just send them over the edge, although that might not wouldn't be such a bad thing.

[sofa king]

80. Yep, remember this, too:

The truck ahead of you on the highway is damaging that road so much more than you and your car are that your wear and tear on the road is totally insignificant by comparison. It probably requires the tolls from dozens of cars to repair the damage caused by one loaded truck.

So if you are paying a toll, what you are really doing is subsidizing the commerce that passes down your road, putting your money in the pockets of corporations.

Want to see big business shit its pants? Start a grassroots campaign to KEEP TRUCKS OFF OF TOLL ROADS, and see if someone doesn't come knocking on your door in the middle of the night....

[LuvNewcastle]

106. Excellent point.

If they want to charge tolls, charge the people who are damaging them, not the everyday driver. Let all the dump trucks and big rigs pay the tolls and you'll see this shit squashed very quickly.

[laundry_queen]

87. Your first 2 sentences should be repeated.

It's the government's responsibility to keep those roads up just like they paid for them to begin with. If the roads are kept up with income tax money, that would mean they were being kept up with a progressive tax instead of tolls, which would essentially be a regressive tax.

It's shocking to me, in this thread, how many people are in favor of regressive taxation. I guess republican propaganda doesn't just affect the right.

I totally agree - roads should be maintained using progressive income tax money, not tolls or gasoline taxes.

[LuvNewcastle]

113. You'd think DUers would get it, but I don't know where their

minds are today. I know some of them are going to support anything Obama supports, regardless of its merits. But these tolls and gas taxes shouldn't be supported by liberals, of all people. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and guess that they're just not thinking it through.

[randome]

118. And how many toll roads on the interstate currently exist?

Talk about 'not thinking it through'.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

[LuvNewcastle]

120. I have no idea. I've never been on one.

There aren't very many toll roads in the South, especially the Deep South. I don't think there's a toll road anywhere in my state. They pay for roads out of income tax money here and the Highway Dept. maintains them. That's the way I've always seen it done, and I think it makes the most sense to do it that way. We have good roads, too, generally speaking.

[randome]

124. 2900 miles of toll roads according to Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_System#Toll_Interstate_Highways

I'd rather find some other way to pay for infrastructure but as long as the GOP refuses to do their jobs, we're stuck with finding other ways.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[LuvNewcastle]

131. I agree that our infrastructure needs it desperately, but I

don't think that's the way to go. Besides, it would be terribly unpopular in most of the country, and you know who would be blamed for the whole thing -- the Democrats. It would not matter one bit that the toll was a result of the Republicans' refusal to fund infrastructure maintenance, all that would matter is that Obama and the Democrats set up toll booths for everybody.

The crumbling infrastructure should be used as an election issue, certainly. After all, people are witnessing the problems with it every day. Either more Democrats could be elected who would fund it or Republican candidates would be forced to pledge to fund it if elected. I don't know, maybe Obama is trying to scare people with this toll idea in order to get the people riled up and finally get some action from Congress. If he's serious about it, though, and tolls are implemented all across the country, it will hurt Democrats a lot this year.

[sofa king]

184. Toll roads taught me a lot about time.

Many people have no idea how much time is lost to those damned toll booths. I'm going to guess that it's nearly impossible to average over 40 mph on I-95 from Maryland to New York because there are four toll booths along the way (totaling nearly $40.00--more than a fucking train ticket!), each one of which is going to lower average driving time by a lot.

Unless the toll road you're on has no speed limit and is 100 miles in a straight line, stopping to pay the toll (separate from and in addition to all other pee-and-gas stops) negates any advantage one gains in higher speeds, less dense traffic, better fuel economy, and so on. You're never going to fully make up the time and money you lost just by sitting in a line for ten minutes to pay the toll.

Another way of looking at driving stops is pretending that half of your time stopped is spent driving away from your objective.

Unavoidable stops become even more important to people with hybrid and electric vehicles, who lose a lot of range by going through the process of slowing, stopping, drawing current at idle, and then struggling back up to highway speed.

The fact that stopping is done to turn over money for the roads you already pay for: 1) out of federal income taxes; 2) out of state income taxes; 3) out of inspection and emissions taxes; 4) out of gasoline taxes, state and federal; is simply a travesty. It's a naked attempt to make the little guy pay up front for the roads to that The Man can soak those tax dollars up somewhere else.

[TheFarseer]

264. i think all the DUers supporting this

Are pretty much saying I live in the northeast and already pay tolls so fuck everyone else in the world.

[KittyWampus]

125. Thanks for the history. Interesting read.

[Recursion]

37. Look, the blue states are tired of paying for the red states' bridges

If you guys in non-toll land want working roads, you're going to have to pay for them too.

[jberryhill]

43. Do they really not know there have been tolls on interstates for eons?

[progressoid]

147. Blue state tolls are paying for Red states' bridges?

[Recursion]

148. No, their gas and income taxes are

Tolls meet (some of) the shortfall between our too-low gas taxes and the maintenance costs of our too-sprawled roads.

[progressoid]

152. Tolls are a regressive tax, but more importantly, during an election year, are political suicide.

Every day some "moderate" or "independent" voter/driver has to throw a few dollars at the toll, he'll grumble about the dammed Democrats that did this.

[Harmony Blue]

40. I feel sorry for the small mom and pop shops they will be hit hard

Expect to see more Walmart, CVS, and Walgreens stores at every corner...as if there wasn't enough already.

[lumberjack_jeff]

54. You are not a citizen to be served. You are a resource to be exploited.

The guy driving to work isn't using the highway, Alice Walton is using it to get her labor into her store. As such, the "carbon tax" is misplaced.

[woo me with science]

75. +100000 There is no excuse for it.

There is no excuse for it.

[cantbeserious]

91. The Oligarchs, Corporations And Banks Own And Control The Politicians That Own And Control Us

Same as it ever was.

[Triana]

59. Open highways, Open internet....

everything.

[woo me with science]

66. Everything.

Anger and sadness beyond words.

[baldguy]

60. DU believes toll roads are a sign of Big Brother, and Moron America is winning.

[jberryhill]

63. +1

[KittyWampus]

67. LOL! I live in NY and paying tolls was a big factor in me taking train into Manhattan.

Apparently some DU"ers are coming unhinged.

[jberryhill]

72. Some DU'ers already were

Unfortunately, the re-structuring of the DUngeon made it more difficult to identify them when they get out of the ward.

[ProSense]

68. Demand

They are taking away our open highways

There is a deeply symbolic aspect to this particular betrayal.

It's about how it feels to live in America.

This is not America anymore.

...and support a long-overdue increase in the gas tax. That's the way the highways have been funded since they were built.

You May Have To Say Goodbye To Your Toll-Free Highways
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024893543

[whistler162]

78. So you would rather tax the poor who

drive locally by raising gasoline taxes versus those that use the interstate highway system! INTERESTING!

[scheming daemons]

122. The OP Is interested only in finding new ways to express faux outrage

...

[whistler162]

139. Yup...

[VanillaRhapsody]

187. I know right? This Libertarian slant of DU is getting ridiculous

they don't see that!

[giftedgirl77]

79. I guess you've never been to Tampa huh, or

anywhere in south Florida for that matter. Your faux outrage is duly noted & rather amusing. Our infrastructure is falling apart, congress refuses to fund repairs, therefore taxing the ppl directly utilizing the roads is the only way to fund repairs & maitainence. Such as life in the real world.

[oldandhappy]

83. This is America.

If we no longer have federal money, then the states have to tax something to have funds. Tax the road use or tax gas. These roads do not fix themselves. Happy tax cuts.

I appreciate the comments from the people in the North East. Did not know your roads were already in the 'toll' category. We have a few toll roads in southern CA. We pay more in gas taxes than most states. I do not complain because I want the roads to be there. I do not get around as much as I once did. And most of the time I am on back roads looking for less popular camping areas. If we are going to drive we need roads and roads need care.

Am planning an outing in this area with a friend. We will drive to the train station. After that we will use the train, then a trolley, and then a shuttle. And all at senior prices!

[philosslayer]

90. So your idea of America...

Is to be able to drive wherever you want, for free, spewing a toxic stew of pollutants into the atmosphere all the while? Sorry, thats not my view of what America is. Putting a toll on some roads will cut down on pollution, encourage public transportation, forestall climate change (in at least a small way), and raise desperately needed revenue. I'm all for it.

[Zorra]

94. Yeh, it's really sad, we needed a progressive revolution cure, but we got corparasitism infection.

Betrayed at every turn.

[cbayer]

97. There will always be roads to travel for free.

And most of the time, those present much more pleasure and opportunity to explore the American you speak of.

If you just want to get there fast and see nothing in between, then you may have to pay for it.

In Mexico, there are two sets of roads - those you pay to travel and those that are free.

The tolls are pretty outrageous, too. One can spend upwards of $50/day to stay on the pay roads.

But there is an abundance of infrastructure repair going on and that includes the free roads as well.

[fasttense]

108. It is deliberately taking away your liberty

In the old feudal kingdoms, serfs were never allowed to wander away from their farms or mills or place of work. Children were required by law, and force, to take up their parents trade. They had no choice in the matter. A serf found outside his allowed area would be hunted down and punished. It was called abandonment. So, when feudalism transformed into capitalism (after passing through a slavery economy in certain parts of the world) liberty, the right to go wherever you want, was very important. It was even inscribed into our constitution.

But today you need a passports to leave the country. You have to pay to get away from your assigned area. You need money to pay for a car, taxi, bus, airplane or train if they are available. Frequently the only form of transportation is a car. But you are forced to buy overpriced insurance for that car. Gasoline is the only easily available fuel that costs more and more each day. You are then taxed with wheel and registration fees. And now in many parts of the country you must also have money available to pay to use the king's roads.

Most Americans pay a big price for their liberty and that's just the way the kings and queens of America like it.

[jberryhill]

114. "But today you need a passports to leave the country."

My God! Passports! When did they start requiring those?

Although you do NOT need a passport to leave the country.

Most countries require you show one to ENTER their country, which is why airlines will check if you have one on departure, so they aren't fined for bringing you to the destination and have to eat the cost of hauling you back.

However, the US does not require you to show a passport to LEAVE the country, and at the pedestrian entrance to Mexico at San Diego, the Mexicans don't check you on the way in.

[fasttense]

185. I stand corrected

If you are flying or taking a cruise that goes outside the country, the corporation that you pay to transport you demands to see your passport. And it is the place you are going to that wants to see that you have a $165 to $55 (plus photo fees) passport from your country. It's a minor inconvenience but added into all the other costs to pay for your liberty, is it too much?

However if you drive to Mexico on your own after paying all the fees, taxes, registration and overpriced fuel, they don't care about you leaving the country. But if you drive to Canada they do ask for your passport.

I'm not saying passports are new or wrong. The subject is about paying to travel. I'm merely pointing out all the costs you must pay for your liberty. Is it too much? When does it become too much?

[Dustlawyer]

111. We already paid for these highways when they were built!

It seems that they are looking at every single way to extract what little money Americans have left. This should not be allowed to go in-answered!

[Cleita]

143. Exactly. They are part of the commons. n/t

[ancianita]

233. They were never built as part of the commons but to primarily serve commerce and the military.

We dreamed up free mobility on highways being the commons when they just cut across the commons -- national forests, grazing land, etc. But highways themselves are not for all the people; it's just that all the people thought they were.

[Cleita]

235. That's the past. It's time to recognize that most of the earth belongs

collectively to the creation that inhabits it. We as supposedly the most intelligent of species with the ability to be good stewards need to step up to the plate, or we will be gone as a species rather rapidly.

[ancianita]

237. You don't understand. Stewardship is about nature, not highways. Go ahead. Knock yourself out.

If you think you can convert highway ownership -- or any state supervised system -- to the commons, you'd be the first to make such dreams come true.

When highways become the commons, who is going to maintain them? A citizens bureau of highway management? How will their maintenance be paid for?

If stewardship is your goal, you'd do better to try to wrestle ruined farm country from agribusiness and return it to the true agri-culture of millions of farmers, since a quality non-gmo food supply from a non-chemical, unpolluted environment is way more important for America than are highways.

[Cleita]

239. I cannot do what you ask alone . Many others want it to happen and can't do it alone.

But spreading a meme that it can't be done, doesn't help.

[ancianita]

240. Meme? Seriously? This is Reality. You can't just ignorantly claim that highways are The Commons.

I was going along with your additional misunderstanding of the concept and practice of stewardship by asking questions, none of which you've even attempted to think through or answer, even off the top of your head.

You're actually misunderstanding two concepts here -- Stewardship and The Commons. Perhaps there is a way that public ownership of highways might better fund and maintain them than the system we have right now. Lots of people are thinking about this and Obama's got a Transportation Bill up for consideration. I don't like toll roads, but I don't like the lower tax base of the country and the spending priorities of our non-representative government, either. But you can't simply say that the positivity alone will help the "many others" make some solution happen. The ball's still in your court to show some ideas, about how to not let highways into the hands of privateers, not just wanting some vision of America where infrastructure is free.

This isn't about a "it can't be done" meme. Or spreading it, since I was responding specifically to you. Most people know that highways are infrastructure, not nature. I couldn't get away with conflating the two along with you, and even for the sake of positivity or "a movement," I wouldn't try. Infrastructure takes funding and maintenance. If you want funding priorities to change, fine.

Are we able to afford all that needs fixing? However we get there, it won't be by equating infrastructure that sustains the fossil fuel world with The Commons. The Commons is our land base, our food, clothing and shelter source, our preservation of the wild source. It's got a whole different importance for our civilization than you're trying to give to highways.

[Cleita]

242. I guess I'm just stupid compared to everyone else.

Nothing else needs to be said. I don't know why you would look forward to a future that can't be discussed, but I frankly don't have to spend much more time here.

[woo me with science]

154. Of course we did. And we pay gas taxes, too.

This is the Third Way. Rationalizing assaults on the poor for the benefit of the rich is what they do.

[VanillaRhapsody]

188. and you would rather increase taxes on gas?

how is that any different? That effects EVERYONE everyday not JUST those using the Interstate system!

I think this is more about you personally than America overall.

[scheming daemons]

157. Maintenance of them has to be paid for too..... they don't just stay in perfect condition forever

..

[Dustlawyer]

161. Gas taxes and vehicle registration cover maintenance.

[VanillaRhapsody]

189. and taxing EVERYONE more for gas effects EVERYONE not just those that use the Interstate.

[VanillaRhapsody]

191. and raising those taxes everyone...not JUST those that use the Interstate System

[whistler162]

198. You forgot to add

of those highways the state/county/town roads. Those two items don't just go to the interstate highway system but are cut up among multiple locals.

Seem to be alot of people who believe roads and highways maintain themselves and once built don't require care.

Then there are the pie in the sky lets do this wild unworkable plan or do nothing group.

[SwankyXomb]

112. Couple of questions

1. Don't most of the current toll roads people are complaining about or holding up as an example pre-date the Interstate system?

2. Is there anyone here who doesn't think that this is how it will go: We pay tax dollars to set up the toll system, then Halliburton or the Kocks get a no-bid contract to run it, pocket every penny, and still stick us with the maintenance bill?

[bobduca]

119. Privatize the profits

Subsidize the costs with taxpayers! The Neoliberal formula for raping the commons is eerily similar to the Neoconservative one.... only with slightly less guns.

[L0oniX]

133. What's next? Sidewalk permits?

[nationalize the fed]

136. Why not? It's for safety. You'll need insurance too

Mandating proles to stuff corporate pockets is just beginning

[Cleita]

138. I'm thinking of putting a toll booth at the beginning of our

road. Six property owners and their tenants maintain the private road that leads to each ranch. Every few years we pool our money and get the road repaired and upgraded. However, everyone uses the road, delivery men, postal trucks, repairmen, garbage trucks, sheriffs and various other types of visitors. Maybe we need to put up a toll booth for those extra users of our road.

Since our illustrious bureaucrats are talking about having toll lanes for faster traffic on our taxpayer paid freeways, I guess to accommodate rich people who can afford them, I propose we all put toll booths at the entrance to our neighborhoods, because, let's face it no one is really concerned about fixing our infrastructure so Americans are going to have to do it themselves just like we do in our neighborhood.



Seriously, roads are part of the commons. There shouldn't be toll roads anywhere.

[woo me with science]

159. Great post.

[VanillaRhapsody]

190. Okay.....do it then....

if that is what it takes to maintain it.....somebody has to pay for it....

[bullsnarfle]

156. I don't understand all the support

in this thread for tolls? I live near where 2 heavily-traveled interstates meet; we used to have toll booths all over the place (as the folks used to say, you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting one).
All those jammed-up cars created an air pollution nightmare like you wouldn't believe, it was often very hard to breathe here, especially in summer. And the effed up traffic tie-ups made it ridiculously difficult to get anywhere, since these were also our main local thoroughfares.
We voted an increased local sales tax on ourselves years ago in exchange for taking ALL the tolls off. The difference has been incredible, and the air is so much better!

Bad news is, the PTB are now talking about bringing tolls back...not taking off the extra sales tax, mind you, but collecting the tax AND putting tolls back on, so we will be paying over and over again. Folks around here are very, very P.O.'d and on the warpath.
And NO, they are not wanting to put tolls back on in order to fund roadwork...they want to build Lexus Lanes, so that the Fat Cats don't have to drive in the same lanes with us peons.
You won't find many (if any) 99 percenters around here that think tolls are anything but BAD.

[woo me with science]

158. "Discussion" in neoAmerica is no longer what it appears to be.

DU is heavily propagandized. Watch long enough and you will recognize the consistent workers on behalf of the corporate political machine.

States that build surveillance machines also build propaganda machines.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4598446

[Rex]

160. I do, it is the people that agree on just about everything.

So not a surprise. They agree on this topic, they agree on other topics...just a fact that some people have a difference and some a general agreement of opinion. I personally don't like the idea of toll roads, since we have many many other ways of saving\spending money to pay for the infrastructure.

[bullsnarfle]

163. And people are generally willing to pay

for their infrastructure, as with our sales tax increase noted in my previous post. We overwhelmingly voted to increase our taxes in order to breathe cleaner air, and shorten drive times from the utter ridiculousness that they were under the tolls.

And the area I live in is pretty red, too, so I know that a lot of folks of that persuasion can be reasonable if the outcome is a worthy one. Hmmm...kinda scary, isn't it?

[Recursion]

183. Some of us like having infrastructure paid for

I know it's an alien idea in the modern US.

And before you say it, the gas taxes cover less than two thirds of the annual maintenance costs.

Driving needs to cost more than it does, for a lot of reasons.

[U4ikLefty]

164. So the rich won't pay taxes, so screw the poor instead?

I have had it with this bullshit.

I am taking note of the punks who are for these tolls...they are as much my enemy as any Rethug.

[VanillaRhapsody]

192. calling posters on DU "punks" is pretty offensive don't you think

and borderline against the TOS...

[JoeyT]

166. It's always fun to watch "progressives" line up to yell

"FUCK THE POOR!". And it's always the same ones.

I certainly can't think of anything more progressive than taxing an Escalade or Porsche at the same rate as a Metro or Focus. Why, it's practically a carbon tax, if you completely ignore the vastly different mileages between the cars.

I guess trying to get people to drive fuel efficient cars isn't a noble goal anymore, because it doesn't fuck the rich and the poor with equal vigor.

[JVS]

171. Don't forget the coup de grace where the toll rights are sold to some private company.

[dionysus]

169. you've outdone youself with the melodrama on this one...

[Number23]

174. I thought I saw the DU domain weeping bitterly and the servers looking suicidal

Now I understand why. This thread is something else, right here.

[woo me with science]

194. Actually, you are very wrong on this.

Our open highways are deeply symbolic, a part of the national psyche. Part of being an American, being free, is being able to hop on a highway and go anywhere, no matter who you are or how much money you have.

Politicians who rip that away deeply, perilously disregard the importance of that for people.

And the mocking attention by the resident propaganda crew IMO shows that they realize that this is a visceral, emotional issue for people. That is why the responses need to be swarmed with such disdain.

[giftedgirl77]

202. You will still have the highways, just not the interstates.

Just remember those are maintained by the states & for the most part, especially here in SC are shit. So don't start complaining when your shocks & struts have been beat to hell & the bridges are on the verge of collapse.

[woo me with science]

203. There's always an excuse

for just a little more Third Way predation, isn't there? Even though we pour billions into war and corporate welfare. Even though we cannot raise taxes on the rich.

No, Democrats don't take interstates away from the poor and then admonish them to be grateful that they "still have the highways."

Democrats don't assault the poor. Not corporate-purchased, Third Way Democrats, anyway. America's roads belong to us all. The open highways should belong to us all. This is not America anymore if Democrats have sunk to the point of taking our open highways, the ability to travel freely on our interstates, away from the poor.

[giftedgirl77]

206. I was pointing out that the roads need funding to be

maintained. Congress refuses to fund infrastructure so guess what? Tolls get put in place to maintain the roads. You keep stating that the highways are being taken away & that the poor are going to be greatly effected while throwing your generic two bit insult in as well. Meanwhile showing that you have very little experience with being poor & living in metropolitan areas with toll roads.

Your holier than thou attitude is very telling, considering you know absolutely nothing about my economic background or history.

[woo me with science]

210. Of course the interstates are being taken away, and of course the poor will be affected.

Your own words perfectly express the Third Way attitude toward the poor that has people so upset. How ironic to complain about a "holier than thou" attitude because someone rejected your words aimed at the poor:

"You will still have the highways, just not the interstates."

How dare anyone decide for the poor that they don't need access to the the central artery system of mobility in our country? How dare anyone lecture them to be grateful for the roads that will be left to them? The highways and interstates of this country are basic infrastructure and central to our freedom and mobility. They need to belong to all of us, not just those who can afford to pay a toll.

There is no excuse, in a country of this wealth, for those who call themselves Democrats to support expanding a pay to participate system for the interstates. The freedom to travel, to hop on the interstate and go anywhere, no matter who you are or how much money you have - is part and parcel of American freedom.

Any politician who rips that away is participating in the corporate transformation of this country into something that is not America at all.

[giftedgirl77]

211. I was pointing to you specifically.

YOU keep proclaiming that the highways which are your right to drive on are being taken away. No they aren't, neither are the interstates. Go to Tampa or Miami there are several different options for motorists to take, some are tolls, some are not. I-95 has part of it's lanes as toll roads at certain times & the rate climbs during peak hours. It's hilarious as it will be just as congested as the free lanes but hey they paid a $1 to sit there instead.

Nobody anywhere at anytime has said anything about turning every single central artery into a toll road. This is just more of your faux outrage over something that is common place in most high density areas.

[woo me with science]

212. You are flailing here.

You wrote, and chose as your subject line for that post:

You will still have the highways, just not the interstates.

Obviously the poor are the ones who will "still have the highways, just not the interstates," so your backtracking protest that you were talking about me and not them is awfully silly. ...Or were you really trying to claim that this proposal will not harm the poor's access to interstates, but will specifically disrupt mine?


Of course the poor will be harmed. And it's a particularly desperate flail to then argue that "every single artery" needs to be transformed into a toll road in order in order for harm to occur. This plan will open up the entire interstate system to tolling. That's a fundamental change in how our road system works that is regressive and vicious and puts literal roadblocks in the ability of the poor in this country to access the same level of freedom and mobility that other Americans enjoy. And as we have seen with privatization schemes that will bring profit to the rich (because private companies *will* build these toll plazas and the systems they use...): "Where it can happen, it will happen."

[giftedgirl77]

214. This is the last time I try & explain it to you....

First of all as a person who was completely & totally poorwith 4 kids under the age of 5 living in the projects I must tell you that of all the toll roads in South & Cental Florida somehow they didn't manage to disrupt my life or daily commute in any way, shape, or form. No we couldn't afford to drive on them daily which would have been a lot more convenient or if we absolutely needed to we planned ahead.

Next the poor being harmed is an illogical argument & I just explained why. We didn't have to take back roads nor routes that forced us way out of the way. The bottom line is roads need to be maintained if you don't want tolls take some of that "outrage" you fling at other dems & direct it at the congresscritters that refuse to provide funding.

It is illogical to assume every single road will have a toll required to pass & until you have something other than your dilusions of this evil take over this conversation is over.

[woo me with science]

215. Yes, you are repeating yourself,

and contradicting yourself, as well.

We are constantly lectured by the Third Way and corporate propaganda voices on this board that the poor will not be harmed by each new assault and deprivation.

We have learned to take those absurd assertions with a boulder of salt...*particularly* when they directly follow accidental admissions (couched in lectures to the poor not to complain so much because the other roads are just as nice) that the poor *will* be demanded to cough up more money they do not have or else denied access to liberties that other Americans enjoy.

Thank you for participating in this exchange. It has been very illuminating, I think.

[giftedgirl77]

224. Call it what you want....

Anyone on here that contradicts your POV is called names or not considered a "true democrat" regardless of the fact that we are able to provide real world guidence of what it means to be poor & living in cities where tolls are a very real everyday thing for us.

Just because you don't like the answers don't make them any less true.

[sabrina 1]

172. Hey, money has to be made, and who better to take it from than the working class?

[VanillaRhapsody]

193. doesn't raising gas taxes tax the working class?

in fact not only the "working class".

[neverforget]

220. So we can pay 2 taxes or "fees": gas taxes AND tolls.

And as I said below, privatization is next. The corporations are coming after the Commons and they're going to get it if we don't protect them.

[VanillaRhapsody]

221. Or the other option....we keep letting infrastructure fall apart....there is that!

"the Commons" costs money....and is in DESPERATE need of repair....

[neverforget]

223. And did I say anything about letting it fall apart? No.

Roads have been in desperate need of repair for some time. The federal gas tax hasn't been raised since 1993. No wonder why our roads suck. I'll take an increase in the gas tax and/or some money earmarked for the military in exchange for NO tolls for interstate freeways.

How do you propose protecting the Commons from corporations?

[VanillaRhapsody]

226. so in what way does raising the gas tax not effect the poor?

Those with the least amount of money are not going to have the money for gas to be using the interstate system as much as some people do.....tolls will not effect them....but raising the gas tax WOULD! You seem to only support a system that if it raises a tax on you....it must also be shared by the less fortunate too dammit!

[neverforget]

227. It's a regressive tax I agree. But paying 2 taxes instead of 1 makes it possible to raise taxes

twice instead of once. Plus, toll roads will be privatized. Corporations want them and what they want, they usually get.

Have you seen the price of gas? It's nearly $4/gallon now. I have a feeling that a lot of people are going to be cutting back but not because of a gas tax.

[VanillaRhapsody]

228. You speaking in "if's" now.....

this is your theory.....

raising the gas tax disproportionately effects the poor....those least likely to use the Interstate Highway system....

[neverforget]

230. If? It's happening now. Corporations are buying roads because governments are strapped for cash

and they offer a quick fix.

http://www.inthepublicinterest.org/sites/default/files/Private%20Roads%20Public%20Costs%20(CO).pdf

Oh look! As soon as the corporations get in trouble, they ask the public for more money. Private profits, Public loss. Prepare to get fleeced like these states in the articles below. Corporation runs into trouble financially so they turn to the taxpayer to cover their loss. It's a win-win scenario for them. They own the roads AND get the taxpayers to make sure they make money. Pretty sweet deal if you ask me. That's why I am against toll roads.

Private Toll Road Investors Shift Revenue Risks to States

Companies that build private toll roads are pressing states to assume more financial risk of traffic not meeting expectations, a change that benefits the operators while threatening to increase taxpayer costs.

Illinois and Indiana are among states offering set payments instead of the right to keep toll revenue, the standard financing method in the past. A similar approach is being used in Florida to expand highways in Fort Lauderdale and Orlando, and by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey for a bridge to Staten Island.

The new financing arrangement decreases the risk for operators, which include Madrid-based Ferrovial SA and Sydney-based Macquarie Atlas Roads Group, after at least 11 private U.S. toll projects since 1995 have struggled financially due to traffic not meeting projections.

“We are seeing more of that because investors are a bit skittish about the U.S. market,” said Richard Geddes, director of Cornell University’s Program in Infrastructure Policy in Ithaca, New York. “If it’s a new road, there is a lot of risk on how many vans, trucks, motorcycles and other vehicles will end up paying the tolls.”

Private Toll-Road Investors Get Low-Risk Deals From States

Private companies that invest in highways have typically shouldered the risk that income from tolls might not be enough to make the deal pay. Now, after at least 11 projects have struggled financially since 1995, the companies are persuading states to make fixed payments so it’s taxpayers who roll the dice. Under the arrangements, states receive toll revenue and have to cover any shortfall with money from their operating budgets. The terms typically call for the states to take over the roads after several decades. “It’s a very good idea to have private people provide roads,” says Gabriel Roth, a retired traffic consultant who has worked for the World Bank as a transportation economist. “But the condition in which the state pays up if there is no traffic is a disaster.”

In 2009, Florida agreed to pay private investors, including Madrid-based Actividades de Construcción y Servicios (ACS:SM) and pension fund TIAA-CREF, $66 million annually over 30 years to renovate an interstate highway near Fort Lauderdale and add toll lanes. The investors will also get payments of as much as $686 million linked to completing the project by June 2014. Without private investment, the state couldn’t have finished the project until the late 2020s, according to Paul Lampley, a construction manager for the Florida Department of Transportation. The arrangement will inflate Florida taxpayers’ costs by $13 million or save as much as $244 million, depending on which assumptions are used about construction costs and interest rates, according to the department. “With the financial crisis going on in 2008 and 2009, this structure made the deal close, despite all the turmoil,” says Leon Corbett, project finance manager at the department.

Illinois and Indiana are offering investors set payments instead of toll revenue to build roads. The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey is using similar financing to build a bridge to Staten Island from Elizabeth, N.J. “We are seeing more of that because investors are a bit skittish about the U.S. market,” says Richard Geddes, director of Cornell University’s program in infrastructure policy. “If it’s a new road, there is a lot of risk on how many vans, trucks, motorcycles, and other vehicles will end up paying the tolls.” There are at least six unannounced toll-road projects under discussion in which states would make fixed payments, says Peter Raymond, leader of U.S. capital projects and infrastructure at PricewaterhouseCoopers, which consults for companies building the roads. “For the financial community, it makes it much less risky and less costly,” he says. “It makes it easier for the concessionaires to get the deal done.”

[VanillaRhapsody]

252. Is it paying for the shortfall on infrastructure or not?

How exactly do YOU want to address the problem? Come up with something better instead of just whining about it!

It doesn't appear you are against tolls.....just tolls being privatized.....so fight against THAT! But one way or the other....we HAVE to fund infrastructure. If we don't implement more toll roads....we are left with the other solution...raising the taxes on gasoline (which adversely effects the poor along with the Middle Class).

[neverforget]

255. Do you have a reading problem? Seriously, I gave you a solution but you chose to ignore it

I'M AGAINST TOLLS! I gave you evidence of what has happened to toll roads but you ignore that too.

Somehow you think that in your world, Tolls only affect those that can afford to pay:

"Those with the least amount of money are not going to have the money for gas to be using the interstate system as much as some people do.....tolls will not effect them"

Yeah fuck them. Let them drive farther and use more gas instead. That affects poor people too.

[VanillaRhapsody]

257. Yeah if I have to decide between Middle Class people paying for tolls

or an increase in gasoline tax on EVERYONE including the poor....I will choose to allow those with more to cover it...

[neverforget]

258. So the roads become only for those able to pay the toll price.

How Liberal of you to think that Commons should be only for those that can pay.

[VanillaRhapsody]

259. not every road is going to become a toll road

Jeebus.....this is about Interstate highways....

[neverforget]

260. Right and the poorer people shouldn't be able to drive on them because they

can't pay for them. That's your belief. If they need to get to work and the most direct route is via an Interstate, too bad for them. They can take the surface streets which are slower and possibly longer to get there. Do you see the implications under such a scenario? Longer drive equals more gas used, more time away from home which who knows their circumstances. Maybe they have a kid that needs a babysitter which will increase their costs for the kid to be watched, etc.

[VanillaRhapsody]

261. As i stated earlier....the poorest people....don't have much money for gas to be driving on the

interstate....Sheesh...how much gas for long distance driving do you think you have on $7.25 an hour?

Still waiting to hear YOUR "viable" plan to fund the fixing of our crumbling bridges and roads though...they don't fix themselves you know!

[neverforget]

263. So you just dismiss them. The lack of empathy is noted.

Do you think everybody gets a job within a short distance of their residence?

[sabrina 1]

249. Maybe if we spent those taxes on infrastructure instead of on Drones and Wars and Spying

we spend BILLIONS on Private Security Corps like Booz Allen, Clapper former CEO, wonder how HE got to be in our Democratic government btw, to spy on the American people, billions are spent to spy on us, they wouldn't need to keep taking more and more from the working class.

[neverforget]

256. But there is only ONE WAY! TOLLS!!!!!

There could never be another way. You couldn't possibly use income taxes or a hike in the gas tax. Only Tolls. And if you disagree, you hate Obama and puppies.

[neverforget]

175. Privatization is next.

It won't happen right away, but a few years down the road, the argument will be made "government can't fix or run the highways but corporations can". Whoops, it's happening now.

Prepare to get fleeced.

[woo me with science]

199. You are absolutely correct.

[HooptieWagon]

238. Yep.

And the corporations that buy the toll roads will demand subsidies to meet maintainence costs and any revenue below expectations. Whose gonna be tapped to cover those subsidies? The poor. School budgets will be cut further, etc. As long as the poor are gonna get stuck with the bill, it might as well be by increased gas taxes, and keep the highways free.

[elleng]

176. Everyone SHOULD know this,

about toll roads, bridges, structures. 'They' is US, and there is NO betrayal.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024899130

[DreamGypsy]

177. The highway takes its toll. The green light flashes go. And it's ...

...Welcome to Ohio.

Did he who made the lamb
Put the tremble in the hand
That reaches out to take me quarter
I look him in the eye
But there isn’t any time
Just time enough to pass the tender

To help you bridge the gulf of alienation: Next Best Western - Richard Shindell

&feature=kp

[GeorgeGist]

179. Reagan Democrats ...

allow them to succeed.

[B Calm]

180. Indiana had a toll road and the republican governor sold it to

an overseas company. It costs more than ever now to drive on it.

[woo me with science]

196. +1 The history of toll roads is a history of lying,

and Third Way policy is Republican policy repackaged by infiltrators for the Democratic Party.

We are lied to and told that they are necessary, that there is no other way to fund the roads. Never mind that we were told the same about the gas taxes we pay. Never mind that tolls are a vicious, regressive assault on the poor. The poor end up shafted both ways.

We are lied to and told that the tolls will end when the roads are paid for, but they never go away.

We are lied to and told that the tolls will be controlled, but they always increase.

We are lied to and told that government will control the tolls, but private corporations always profit.

It is no accident that the swarming propaganda for tolls here comes from the very same small group who post here full-time in support of every corporate Democrat and every predatory policy pushed by the Third Way. These are corporate Republican arguments, adopted by the Koch-bankrolled Third Way.

It's propaganda.

[ancianita]

216. OR you could look at it through another lens that gives a bit of history on highway capacity upkeep:

https://www.minneapolisfed.org/publications_papers/pub_display.cfm?id=4219&

But government, as history reveals, is not particularly efficient or effective at maintaining either infrastructure assets or a system’s overall performance.

For example, all public infrastructure systems have capacity limits that can quickly get overwhelmed when user costs are zero. In populated areas, congestion is taken for granted, but it’s an inefficient outcome. The ASCE estimates that 45 percent of urban highways are congested, and Americans spend 4.2 billion hours a year stuck in traffic, costing the economy some $78 billion a year, or $710 per motorist. At the same time, governments are hard-pressed to come up with the funds necessary to expand capacity. And when user prices are zero, there are no pricing mechanisms available to smooth demand and make better use of existing capacity.

According to a 2007 needs assessment by the National Surface Transportation Policy and Revenue Study Commission, just 19 percent of the $147 billion spent on roads and bridges by all levels of government in 2004 went for maintenance; 48 percent went to capital expenditures, and the remainder went for things like traffic operations, highway patrol, department administration and debt payments.

The problem is that over the life span of a road, maintenance costs are significant and worsen if neglected, making catch-up costs exponentially higher. If you own a house, you know the problem: Fail to fix your roof in a timely manner, and you’ll soon have many more things to repair. Neglected maintenance eventually turns minor repair into costly replacement—which, ironically, is often marketed as a more efficient investment of scarce infrastructure dollars. According to the NST study, slightly more than half of all capital expenditures for transportation in 2004 went toward “system rehabilitation” rather than new or expanded roads.

Without proper maintenance, a road might have a life span of just 20 years, when it should be 60 to 80 years...

There are clearly "kicking the can down the road" politics involved, too, across 50 states. If politics won't be practical, then governments intent on getting votes might relieve tax burdens in a tough economy by taxing those most using highways, or for major overhauls, offering a bit of profit incentive for lessees.

I'd hate to join you in adding highway budgets and maintenance as a major indicator of America's demise. Unless you think corruption is endemic to running this country now. I guess you could talk me into it, since the evidence of politicians' neglecting to spend in the public's interest is everywhere. But then, the tax base is eroded everywhere, as well.

[woo me with science]

217. I do think corruption, through deep-rooted corporatization, is endemic to running this country now.

I really do. And the evidence of it - millions driven out of the middle class and into poverty, corporate money pouring into Washington and returning exponentially into the pockets of billionaires because of legislation from both parties that does not even remotely resemble what the people have repeatedly screamed that we want and need - is everywhere around us.

And this is a visceral and symbolic issue for me, too. I believe strongly that the central artery system for mobility in this country should be accessible to every single American, from the very richest to the very poorest.

There are ways to fund roads that do not put up these financial barriers to immediate use, that would put the burden on citizens who should be contributing more instead of those who have already been squeezed to husks, and that keep the roads open and free to everyone. Our free and open highways are a hallmark and a symbol of American liberty. Once you start demanding payment for American citizens to travel from one place to another using our own roads, our own major arteries, you have sacrificed something priceless.

I despise this action, and I think it is a perfect symbol of the corporatization of and dismantling of basic freedoms in America.

[ancianita]

218. Infrastructure has never been free. How much of it can realistically be supported by both feds and

state is a major discussion that requires numbers.

If we take more time to read the Transportation Bill, maybe we can learn to balance what we need with fear that someone is taking it away from us.

I highly recommend that you also read Wendell Berry's "The Unsettling of America" to get a history of how we have sold ourselves out to an old narrative that being "on the move" means progress. And that often we think of mobility as a freedom inherent in the rest of the narrative of business, wealth acquisition and prestige. Even if you just read the first and last chapters.

Of course we built these highways when we were a richer, more frugal nation. But these highways were never part of The Commons -- instead, highways cut across farms, towns, grazing land, etc. -- and perhaps we've come to think of highways as the commons. But they never were. They were only sold as a "hallmark and symbol of American liberty" by car companies on TV. And we built a mobile culture from all that. Driving has always been legally just a privilege. Roads were always primarily for interstate commerce and the military.

Now transportation methods have divided themselves by class -- the rich flying everywhere, or being driven to anywhere you yourself have to drive -- and they're just not feeling your attachment to road mobility; neither are they paying the taxes they paid under Eisenhower. If you just want to get around, we will find ways to do on-the-ground workarounds. If you think of this as a commercial conquest which can feel more final than military conquest, I can sympathize. But we do have to keep a clearer historical understanding of what highways have been for, not just what they mean to us. BTW, I've taken over 30 cross country road trips in my life, so I really do sympathize.

If we can make litmus test lists of issues for pledges from would-be Democratic leaders, perhaps this toll road issue should be on them.

[woo me with science]

231. Many false arguments here. This is not "a fear" that something is being taken away.

If tolls you cannot afford are imposed on a road that was previously accessible to you without tolls, something IS being taken away, period.

It is likewise a false and rather bizarre argument to use an assertion that Americans need not be "on the move" to make progress,*...as a justification for the government's putting restrictions on their ABILITY to move.

It reminds me of when corporate/conservative media was co-opting very attractive arguments for "simple living" and "tiny houses" in order to justify imposing crushing austerity on people.

We are a phenomenally wealthy nation right NOW. We pour billions into war and corporate welfare, yet we are told that we cannot fund our roads without assaulting the pocketbooks and the access to mobility of the poor. When most Democrats assert that "driving is a privilege," they do so to emphasize that one must have the necessary proven skills and insurance to ensure that nobody is harmed by the activity. They do NOT invoke it as a defense of policy that deprives the poor of access to major roads merely because they are poor.

Your appeal to "historical understanding" and assertion that those who oppose this policy have misunderstood the meaning of "The Commons" are irrelevant and feel like sophistry in this context. Even if the original "marketing" of the free and open road by Madison Avenue was cynical and insincere, Americans have enjoyed free and equal access to these roads for generations. There is no misunderstanding here that we have had something that many of us consider precious: a fine infrastructure for interstate mobility freely accessible to ALL citizens regardless of wealth or poverty. And there is no misunderstanding that corporate politicians now want to take that away.

Government is created by human beings to serve human beings: "Of the People, By the People, For the People." We pour billions into wars and corporate welfare every day. This country has the resources to maintain our beautiful open roads, and to do it in a way that preserves the even more beautiful equality of access to enjoy them. Any corporate politician who tries to sell you otherwise is lying.


___________________________________
*If we have "sold out" to a narrative of mobility, the problem surely resides in accepting "the narrative of business, wealth acquisition and prestige" as our yardsticks for national well-being rather than in the inconvenient fact that the poor deserve to enjoy the same access to our interstate highways as any other citizen of this country.

[ancianita]

232. Well, first of all, I thought I was in a discussion, not an argument.

You open with:

"There is a deeply symbolic aspect to this particular betrayal.

It's about how it feels to live in America.

This is not America anymore."

I make no argument, but explain from what I can glean of the history of funding and maintenance issues based on numbers put out by the American Society of Civil Engineers and the National Surface Transportation Policy and Revenue Commission. And I offer a view of America's highways other than yours in the OP.

I don't argue about government and its purpose. I agree with you about of, by and for the people, and all that. But if you want to stay with what you assume I should understand from your OP, you're the one who seems to argue some "historical understanding" that my experience shows to be different.

I was talking about actual history, not your narrative of how highways should be understood. It's not bizarre to try to understand your implication that we all have a right to demand free access to highways without paying for them. Historically speaking, the misunderstanding, if you think about highway access and rights, has been yours. If you don't like how highway use is changing, then the next step is to fight those politicians. But it's a 50-state fight.

Based on your OP, which assumes a commonly shared view of the land called America, you can hardly accuse me of sophistry. We have a narrative about America, true, and I thought that the free access of the commons is part of that and that you'd appreciate that...anyway...

For one thing, Democrats don't refer to driving as a privilege. It's the actual law of every state. And I don't think politicians necessarily want to take highway access away; I think they feel forced to find ways to maintain them that put constraints on taxpayers.

I've always maintained that this country can afford what it wants to afford. But we haven't the representation to force our will on politicians spending our money. Perhaps I'm just getting used to disenfranchisement.

If you're not open to how other versions of America look besides yours, then I can understand why you'd think I'm arguing. But I'm on your side. It's just that I can't just take off into outrage over the injustice of it all when tackling spending across 50 states can get so unwieldy, and use/maintenance numbers do seem to suggest private-public-partnerships.

[woo me with science]

245. It is a discussion. You don't have to be arguing belligerently

Last edited Sat May 3, 2014, 08:14 PM - Edit history (4)

to be making an argument from a point of view. Although you say you agree with me and oppose this policy, the actual content of your discussion here...the meat of your posts....contains one argument after another that either rationalizes the defense of tolling or questions/counters opposition to it.

This country can't afford more rationalization of policies that harm the poor and limit freedom, coming from Democratic politicians.

Even when they are expressed gently and non-argumentatively, the financial excuses, the excuses about complexities in funding or changing times, the historical appeals that claim we have misunderstood our right to our roads...They don't justify this wholly unnecessary assault on the poor and freedom of mobility in the United States of America. Roads can be funded other ways to maintain at least the openness we enjoy now, and, in your own words, "This country can afford what it wants to afford "

We hear a drumbeat of sophistry from our corporate media and politicians to rationalize policies that harm the poor, weaken our equality and democracy, and line the pockets of the rich. It doesn't matter whether the excuses and rationalizations are offered as part of a deliberate propaganda campaign to try to make Republican policies look reasonable, or are offered by people who are "just getting used to disenfranchisement," as you describe yourself here. Rationalizations for Democratic Party assaults on the poor and on this country need to be strongly rejected.

Our roads need to be for everyone, rich and poor. It is the role of Democrats to stand between Americans and policies like this. There is no excuse for this betrayal.

[SidDithers]

205. Must have been time for another spin of the ...

Sid

[onenote]

229. Yes indeed. I love the smell of hyperbole in the morning

The great open road that defined America. Of course, there have been toll roads for as long as there have been roads. Yes, the Interstate Highway system put a damper on toll road construction (and it also destroyed some small towns by diverting traffic away from them, but that's another story). The love of the "open road" also gave us gas guzzling vehicles and a society addicted to the automobile and averse to energy efficient mass transportation. Yes, the myth of the "open road" as defining America may have some truth to it. But not necessarily in a good way.

[zonkers]

222. In Southern California, diamond lanes have morphed into pay to ride fast lanes....

this from the same state that got reamed by Enron for billions and also promised the people that the lottery would pay for education.

[Cleita]

236. You are right, but now, we the people are beginning to hold

the cards. It's time for us to act and reverse all the damage done to this state since Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon put their evil stamps on it.

[ancianita]

241. But not everyone in the other 49 states holds the same cards Californians do. And they might have to

implement tolls to pay for repairs.

For now, this is an interstate problem that depends on 50 states' solutions, some of which we might not like.

[Cleita]

243. Yeah.

[SwampG8r]

244. i call bullshit on every person on this thread who says they already pay tolls

im sure you pay tolls but right now you pay them to the highway dept of whatever state you are in
when you pay them on a section of an interstate it is where the interstate conjoins with some state road giving the state the right to raise and regulate tolls
I pay for the federal interstate system with my federal taxes not state taxes
every state in the us was coerced years ago into raising the legal drinking age to 21 or lose interstate highway funding
so to break it down
no
you do not pay tolls on the interstate
you pay tolls to ride on a state highway that for that section conjoins the interstate
and the interstate highways are funded from my income tax already

[Agschmid]

248. I don't understand your post...

In Mass the entirety of I-90 is considered the Mass Pike, the Mass Pike starts immediately with a Westbound toll through the Ted Williams Tunnel, then through Boston it is toll free (only 3-ish exists). Once you reach Allston you pay a toll to continue, then free on/off. You pass another toll barrier in Waltham and this begins the toll regulated on/off portion of the road, this continues until Lee, MA when you cross into NYS.

So that's an interstate, and is pay tolls on it. Yes those tolls do go to my state but from what I got out of your post you say that does not happen?

Confused...

[SwampG8r]

265. from the wikipedia history of I90 in mass

"I-90 in Massachusetts runs concurrently with the pre-Interstate era Massachusetts Turnpike, which opened on May 15, 1957, from West Stockbridge at the New York state border to Route 128."

in other words they laid I90 on top of the pre-existing Massachusetts Turnpike, a turnpike that is under the control of the state as to tolls.
there is no federal toll because riding on interstates is free
there is a state toll because the interstate is on top of a state operated toll road

or

you call it I90 but its really the mass turnpike
if it was the interstate it would be free but you are paying to ride on the mass turnpike,which just also happens to be I90
hope this clears it up

[Turbineguy]

251. Sometimes this place is one

step away from being republican. He mentioned it. We imagine he's done it.

Republicans imagine he said it and then imagine he's done it.

[Warpy]

253. And toll booths will undoubtedly have scanners

to track our movements.

This is annoying, unnecessary, unproductive, intrusive, and a boondoggle, welfare to Bechtel.

Raise the gas tax if they must raise taxes. That way, it's more of a true carbon tax.

[woo me with science]

254. Yes, the surveillance and control aspects of this are disturbing as hell, too.

One more major infrastructure for spying and control for them.

We are living in a dark time in this country. I really, really hope we can pull it back.