Unfortunately, there will always be enough yahoos around who think the death penalty is "justice"...

[Tommy_Carcetti]

....and the more prolonged and painful an execution is, the more they will cheer that as "justice."

And there will always be enough people who will be willing to go along with that thinking because they, too, want to sound as though they are "tough on crime."

The best hope for eliminating the death penalty in this country still rests with the courts. It's right there in the Eighth Amendment...why no judge has taken that leap yet, I have no clue. And then we have the current makeup of the Supreme Court to deal with......

So as much as I want to think the events in Oklahoma will change things, I just am pessimistic that it ever will. As many things that are great about this country, there simply is a sick, pervasive attitude in America when it comes to violence and force and bloodlust and "making a statement." And way too many people subscribe to that way of thinking.

Is there anything out there that you see that could be a game changer? I wish there was something...

[hlthe2b]

1. I can't help but be reminded of our society's attitudes towards gun control..

The majority may want it, but policy is driven by a very vocal minority. Authoritarianism and fear, go hand in hand, imo. Same as with the death penalty.

[whatthehey]

9. Except the majority is fine with the DP

by a huge margin, despite being "the lowest in years".

Don't let echo chambers fool you.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/165626/death-penalty-support-lowest-years.aspx

[hlthe2b]

11. It is all in how the question is asked. These polls are notorious for inflammatory framing..

of the question.

Let's see where it is after reports that as many as 4% are innocent and after these horrendous disasters in conducting execution.

[whatthehey]

13. Then all DP polls must be "botched" the same way

as they are generally consistent.

If 20+ young kids being shot in one go didn't substantially change support for gun control (and it didn't), do you really think a torture killer convulsing for a bit will substantially change support for the DP?

BTW the Gallup question is cited at the link. Please specify how it is framed in an inflammatory way.

[hlthe2b]

15. Having administered & designed national surveys, anyone with the experience will tell you

that the context in which the survey is introduced, the questions preceding, and even the manner in which survey participation is solicited, can matter just as much as the actual question--even if a truly random sample is obtained.

Regardless, trends are showing support dropping with a big thud over the years. So, there is hope that sanity will prevail and we will not remain on a par with Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and China.

[MO_Moderate]

2. Unfortunately, there will always be a vocal minority

who think the death of someone who rapes, tortures and murders an eleven month old baby is an injustice. And there will always be others who will be willing to go along with that thinking because they, too, want to sound as though they are part of the 'more enlightened than everybody else,' crowd.

[hlthe2b]

3. ...

Perhaps, you might want to rethink your user name. Moderate? yeah, sure.

Favorite group-- no surprises there. Thanks for proving my point.

[MO_Moderate]

5. Because "real" moderates don't support the death penalty?

Yeah, sure.

[Democracyinkind]

4. Where's that majority making the argument that the crime wasn't an injustice?

That just about about takes the cake as the most absurd strawman I've yet encountered.

[MO_Moderate]

6. Probably because you read what you want to read, instead of what was actually written

"who think the death of someone who rapes, tortures and murders an eleven month old baby is an injustice"

I didn't say people against the death penalty believe the crime was an injustice, I very clearly said they believe killing a murderer is an injustice.

[Major Nikon]

7. and the fact that capital punishment discriminates on the basis of race, gender, and class....

..is of no consequence to a "moderate".

Your spots are showing, BTW.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

8. Many of us feel the unnatural death of *anyone* who isn't an imminent threat to others...

...is an injustice.

Including the person you mention. Because killing him won't do anything. It won't deter crime. It won't protect society any more than locking him up for life. It won't save the state any money. It won't bring back the victim. And it won't provide any long term closure for the victim's family.

Sorry if I'm coming off as too enlightened for you.

[whatthehey]

10. locking people up doesn't prevent future crime though

Murderers have been paroled and killed, have escaped and killed, and have killed in prisons from minimum security to supermax. Nobody, however, has been executed and killed again.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

12. First and foremost, there's life without parole.

And instances of convicted murderers who've escaped and gone to murder again are extremely rare. Convicted murderers killing in prison are also relatively rare and can be avoided with proper correctional procedures.

Nothing that you've said justifies the ultimate punishment in my book. Unless you are prepared to argue that all convicted murderers should be given the death penalty, and not just the arbitrarily selected ones.

[whatthehey]

18. Not that rare sadly

http://digitaljournal.com/article/360673

interior links help. While I have not convinced you, I suspect I have no need to convince the family and friends of those further victims.

The problem the anti-DP side will always have is that nothing we have tried except the DP GUARANTEES no recidivism. You can suggest better correctional procedures all you want but even Supermax convicts have killed. What conceivable procedures can give us that guarantee? I can certainly think of some but they would be, rightly, dismissed as torture. Because nothing else but absolute physical incapacitation and/or total isolation from all human contact would ever work as well as execution does.

And yes, I do support the execution of all convicted murderers where no possible doubt of guilt exists. A higher standard than conviction would apply, but indeed, those who intentionally kill humans without reasonable cause such as self-defense have to me forfeited their right to mingle with potential future victims.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

19. I read it, and these numbers remain outliers.

Of people who have actually escaped prison and murdered more people.

I've tried to look for an official list to no success. However, in this list compiled by a death penalty supporter, the person compiling the list found a grand total of 9 instances in recent history where a convicted murderer escaped prison and went on to kill again:

https://web.archive.org/web/20130926142328/http://www.wesleylowe.com/repoff.html

Now, let's look at the converse and consider the number of people sentenced to die who were subsequently exonerated. That number currently stands at 144:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-list-those-freed-death-row

And then let's consider the recent study that found that approximately 5% of inmates on death row are likely innocent of their crimes. As of 2013, there were currently 3,088 persons on death row:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/death-row-inmates-state-and-size-death-row-year

Meaning that it's possible that about 150 of those people, give or take, shouldn't be there.


So let's just consider a cost-benefit type analysis here of the very polar extremes of the death penalty argument. The chances that someone on death row is actually innocent (and thus in danger of being executed by the state) is about 16 times more likely than someone managing to escape prison and kill again.

How can you possibly defend those numbers?

[Major Nikon]

16. Which does nothing more than demonstrate dichotomous thinking

Even if you can only think in terms of outliers, the number of people murdered by those condemned to draw their last breath in prison is surely less than or at best equal to the number of innocent people wrongly executed. Then when you are able to see the big picture the cause against the DP is pretty much a slam dunk, which is why virtually all civilized nations on earth no longer use it.

1) The DP is discriminatory and is applied disparately to race, gender, and class.

2) The US has the means to imprison murderers for life which makes the DP unnecessary to segregate murderers from society.

3) Life in prison without parole is cheaper than the DP.

4) The idea that the DP gives victims' families closure is flawed. Life in prison without the possibility of parole gives them closure. The DP extends their suffering for years if not decades awaiting final punishment. Most criminals sentenced to the DP die in prison anyway.

5) Killing a criminal victimizes innocent family members of the condemned.

6) There is no crime deterrent benefit to the DP.

7) The standard of guilt is not absolute and our system of policing and prosecution is not without flaws which insures innocent people will eventually be put to death.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

17. Concise and complete. Thanks. nt

[MO_Moderate]

21. I respect how you feel

Most of us however, believe in permanently removing such people from society.
Killing them is the ONLY 100% guarantee that another innocent person will not be subjected to their barbaric acts.
Again, you don't know if it deters others from committing such acts. People don't really going around saying that they would rape torture and murder if it wasn't for that stupid death penalty, do they?
Everybody, including family, understand how life works and that it won't bring the victim back.
I disagree about closure. While I know family will never get over the death of a loved one, I firmly believe that knowing such a person will never do it again, is a benefit to many.

[JCMach1]

14. The best way to get rid of it is mandatory broadcast on TV

In a Democracy we are the government... time to put the whole process out in the open.

After that, getting rid of it won't happen over night..., but the tide would slowly turn.

[TreasonousBastard]

20. I've been organizing against capital punishment for years and...

what I see is just an evolution, with no revolution on the horizon.

The Supremes keep dancing around the subject and happily "adjust" it so we don't execute the insane or the young, but don't seem to want to deal with the fallout if they either eliminate or support it directly. Little hope there. Nor is there any hope Congress will do anything.

So, several organizations been successfully going from state to state and gradually getting it thrown out here and there. No hope of getting it thrown out of Texas any time soon, but this is a long-term commitment-- since 1846 when Michigan was the first state to abolish it, only 17 more have gotten rid of it. But, 6 of them have been since 2000, so there's a trend, if a small one.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/states-and-without-death-penalty